where to find smaller size <1ct pink or purple sapphires?

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 10/23/2009 1:47:10 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
between spinels, tourmalines and garnets and pink sapphires (all the the 'red' family)

could someone tell me how they rank in preciousness?

Only if you can define "preciousness"

Garnets are my birthstone and favorite gem, so to me, they are the most precious.

Also, within those categories there can be a lot of differences. For example mahenge spinels or ruby red spinels are very precious/collectable compared to baby pink spinels, and can be more expensive than your average pink sapphire because of their rarity. Similarly, rubellite tourmalines are more precious than pink tourmalines, and nice pink-orange malaya garnets tend to have a higher price point/collectability than you're average pyrope garnet. Etc.

But if you're asking what would impress the average layperson the most, probably sapphire.

 

[Stone Hunter]

Date: 10/23/2009 1:47:10 PM
Author: haagen_dazs
between spinels, tourmalines and garnets and pink sapphires (all the the ''red'' family)
could someone tell me how they rank in preciousness?

Well the general public only considers certain stones to be precious. That would leave you with Sapphires, which have a hardness of 9.

Spinels really aren''t that well known but their hardness is an 8 and they are very sparkly. Garnets are also very sparkly with a hardness of 7.5 ish. Tourmalines have a hardness of 7.5 but don''t sparkle the way spinels and garnets do.

Since this is for a necklace, not a 24/7 ring all of those hardnesses would be fine. But if you want to give her what the public would call a precious stone that would be the Sapphire.

HTH

 

[Stone Hunter]

Date: 10/22/2009 3:47:01 PM
Author: Chrono
ETA
I also always ask for additional pictures, particularly a side view and back view, and one on the back of the hand in between 2 fingers which normally shows the most accurate colour.

Oh my I didn''t know that!! That''s really useful information. Thank you for sharing it!!!

 

[chrono]

“Preciousness” is all the mind. I can tell you the market value though for stones of comparable colour and size. Sapphires (ruby) are at the top, then spinels (red and Mahenges), tourmaline (rubellite), then garnet. I don’t think I’ve seen a super duper red garnet which is why I ranked it last. However, if you are talking pink, then a pinkish garnet might cost more than a pink tourmaline. Again, this isn’t a definite answer but sort of a general guideline to give you some idea of pricing.

SH,
You are welcome. Another nice thing about the hand shot is that you can see the colour balance based on the hand. An orangish hand holding a spessartite makes one wonder about the true colour, if you know what I mean.

 

[haagen_dazs]

Thank you Chrono and MakingTheGrade

You folks are smashing
I am loving all this information input.
Its making my brain swell

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Personally, my pick would be a Malaya Garnet (bonus points if either of you were born in January). Garnets are incredibly sparkly when cut well, and stand up well to daily wear.

I don't know if it's the color you're looking for, but I would get this Malaya garnet! It's a good size for a pendant at 7.6mm. I'm awfully tempted to get it for myself, but I'm on a gem diet until I finish up some projects, hehe.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/23/2009 1:26:24 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 10/23/2009 11:55:22 AM
Author: MakingTheGrade
If you like pink, maybe consider pink tourmaline? It can come in a Victoria Secret kind of pink. Pink spinels can also be a nice option, they are very sparkly and come in baby and pastel pinks that fit into a reasonable budget. Both of those types of stones are relatively untreated and unheated.

Also, you can occasionally find a decently priced sapphire on NSC. I bought my .5ct padparadscha sapphire there, and the price was on par with other pads I found from other cutters of similar quality. It may require some careful hunting and a little bit of negotiating though.

I’ve been told to presume all pink tourmalines are heated today.

Chrono, could you please provide a refernce for the claim that many pink tourmalines are heated? I''ve had quite a few pink tourmalines tested at labs this year and none of them have tested as heated.

According to one gem treater I''ve talked to in Chanthaburi, it''s not worth heating tourmaline because they crack very easily under heat.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

I should clarify. I wanted to say that pink tourmalines are relatively easier to find untreated/unheated when compared to sapphires, at least based on my experience with popular pricescope gem cutters like Barry and Gene. I don't mean to imply that they never are, or that you shouldn't be skeptical unless they come from a reliable source. I was just under the impression that they are not routinely heated in the way that sapphires and tanzanites are, but correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[Lady_Disdain]

According to one of my dealers and to a lot of talk I''ve heard on the net, there is plenty of irradiated pink tourmaline on the market.

 

[chrono]

MoreCarats and Lady D,
Thanks for the reminder. I cannot remember if it was heated or irradiated. I thought it was heating of the pink tourmalines. I''m off to find reliable sources to back up this claim I''ve heard.

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/23/2009 12:14:27 PM
Author: MakingTheGrade
If it''s hot pink you''re looking for...

gt pink

HI MakingTheGrade
Your link was not pointing to anything.
404 Link

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/23/2009 12:05:33 PM
Author: haagen_dazs

Date: 10/23/2009 11:50:16 AM

Author: Chrono

I get the idea that you are looking for a vivid pink but medium in tone? Are we talking baby pink? You are talking the girly pink, right?


Prilosec purple actually is actually more easily found in amethysts.

what is baby pink and what is girly pink?

oh man those are quite subjective terms...


both these look yummy great

expect that 200+bucks more to buy 0.5mm is >
Hot Pink Sapphire: .88 ct.


Gem Rhodocrosite: 1.47 ct.

Anyone has any opinion on the pricing of this gemstone?
It is heat treated and it is about USD$600/carat (0.88ct for $52
Hot Pink Sapphire: .88 ct.


Someone here said that that NSC is overpriced.
I was checking and for their Untreated pink sapphires
Some are about 500bucks per 0.8-.09 ct while some are >$1000 for similar sizes

Take for example these 2 stones
both 0.86ct in weight

why are they priced so differently?
$550 NSC pink sapphire
$1186 NSC pink sapphire

 

[haagen_dazs]

to follow up with the previous post

does this price of the stone (which is unheated) mean that it is of "great value" ?

1.11 ct. Orangish Pink Sapphire 675$ / ct

 

[chrono]

My favourite is the ACS pink sapphire because the colour is HOT and intense.
The 1st NSC stone is most not eye clean, hence the lower price.
The 2nd NSC stone, while not as good in colour, makes up for the price in being eye clean and also the cutting will make it appear livelier.
The GT stone is less expensive because the colour is very light in both tone and saturation (pastel).

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Sorry for the bum link, try this
http://www.thegemtrader.com/June%2009%20OPSapp%20Page.htm

You can also look on All That Glitters, they have a nice selection of sapphires as well, such as these, which are about 500$/each at about .7ct.
http://www.atggems.com/Photos_Sapphire.htm

 

[chrono]

OK, I''m back to answer question of treatment of pink tourmalines. It appears that it is BOTH heated and/or irradiated! It is believed that heat treatment is currently undetectable by any test. Also, pink tourmalines from Araçuaí are routinely heated because they often have a strong underlying brown tone, so I''ve read.

Due to PS rules, I cannot link you to the discussion on the treatment but suffice it to say, here are a few points that are discussed:

Irradiation without heating can lead to unstable color that can quickly fade. This is because pink tourmaline can be colored by Mn3+ and or color centers. Very little is known about color centers in tourmaline because the standard tests used with diamonds etc. are difficult to used in materials with significant amounts of iron or manganese. Mn3+ pink is stable. There is a trade off between heating for better color and the lose of gems because of breakage. Most tourmaline is cut or at least semi-preformed before irradiation or heating to reduce the amount of breakage due to surface flaws. To be sure that a pink tourmaline has not been heated, it is safest to purchase a piece of rough that has not been cleaned up. It would still have inclusions that would cause breakage if not removed before heating. Then cut the rough or have it cut. In other words inclusions not color is the key to determining if the pink tourmaline has been heated. For those of us who don''t buy rough, buy it from a trusted vendor who buys the rough and cuts it himself.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/26/2009 8:36:13 AM
Author: Chrono

OK, I''m back to answer question of treatment of pink tourmalines. It appears that it is BOTH heated and/or irradiated! It is believed that heat treatment is currently undetectable by any test. Also, pink tourmalines from Araçuaí are routinely heated because they often have a strong underlying brown tone, so I''ve read.

Due to PS rules, I cannot link you to the discussion on the treatment but suffice it to say, here are a few points that are discussed:

Irradiation without heating can lead to unstable color that can quickly fade. This is because pink tourmaline can be colored by Mn3+ and or color centers. Very little is known about color centers in tourmaline because the standard tests used with diamonds etc. are difficult to used in materials with significant amounts of iron or manganese. Mn3+ pink is stable. There is a trade off between heating for better color and the lose of gems because of breakage. Most tourmaline is cut or at least semi-preformed before irradiation or heating to reduce the amount of breakage due to surface flaws. To be sure that a pink tourmaline has not been heated, it is safest to purchase a piece of rough that has not been cleaned up. It would still have inclusions that would cause breakage if not removed before heating. Then cut the rough or have it cut. In other words inclusions not color is the key to determining if the pink tourmaline has been heated. For those of us who don''t buy rough, buy it from a trusted vendor who buys the rough and cuts it himself.

This is interesting information, though it would be good have a scientific reference for it (is there some rule here against providing references to scientific papers?).

I was puzzled by one thing in this. First you say that "heat treatment is currently undectable by any test." Later you say "inclusions not color is the key to determining if the pink tourmaline has been heated." Am I missing something, or are these two points contradictory?

I would really like to know if any of the pink tourmaline in my stock has been treated. I''ve had pieces tested at several labs, but it has come back as untreated. Which labs can currently determine if a pink tourmaline has been irradiated and/or heated? What tests do they perform? This is a serious issue for people who deal in tourmaline, so any solid information would be appreciated.

 

[chrono]

MC,
This information is from a gemological forum where almost all the participants are in the trade (GG, appraiser, vendor, cutter, etc). I will go back to look for scientific links for you.

ETA
http://www.geo.utexas.edu/courses/347K/redesign/gem_notes/tourmaline/tourm_main.htm

 

[morecarats]

I''d be glad to go and read through the discussion if you can provide a reference. It would be a lot better than "I''ve heard that ... " or "People say ...".

 

[Noam]

Where ever you buy, i recommend to be very aware of treated diamonds. go natural. i also recommend to find a diamond with gia certificate.
Also be carefull from whom your buying, check out these Safety tips when purchasing diamonds online.

Good luck!

 

[chrono]

Here's a quote on heat treatment from a Trade magazine: http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gfwin98.html
New Nigerian Material Treatments
The new Nigerian material is not normally irradiated. Some of the material is heated. Heat treatment does not improve the color of this material, but lightens the tone and removes the brown. The longer the heating process, the lighter the tone becomes.

 

[morecarats]

Chrono, the article you reference is more than 10 years old. That''s like two generations ago in the world of gem treatments.

If tourmaine is being irradiated and/or heated, someone must be doing scientific testing on it. Since you introduced the topic, don''t you think it''s important to provide some information of substance on it? Surely I''m not the only one who would really like to know the truth about this.

 

[chrono]

I really wish I can link you to the forum where it is discussed without breaking any PS rules. Unfortunately, I did not see any links outside of the forum. I will ask the members about this apparently common and difficult to detect treatment.

 

[chrono]

Another source but I don''t know how old it is:
Lesser quality gems are sometimes treated or enhanced to appear as better quality and to possibly command a better price. To improve its clarity, the Rubelite variety is treated with fillers but it still remains a lesser quality gem. Heat treatment is used on Tourmalines of lesser color to intensify the existing color especially on Indicolite, pink and red varieties. It is used on light yellow or green stones to produce orange or golden Tourmaline. Heat is also used on light pink to produce colorless stones. Stones are sometimes treated with gamma irradiation to enhance the color, but the color is not permanent and may fade when exposed to extreme light, or the stone may fracture when exposed to extreme heat.

http://www.cigem.ca/429.html

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/26/2009 10:25:15 AM
Author: Chrono
I really wish I can link you to the forum where it is discussed without breaking any PS rules. Unfortunately, I did not see any links outside of the forum. I will ask the members about this apparently common and difficult to detect treatment.

I presume you''re referring to some source which is not recognized as reliable by PS? My guess that would be someone like Robert James. It''s true he sometimes has some wild ideas and other gemologists have trouble duplicating his results. What I would really like to see is a reference to work by someone like Emmett or Koivula or one of the GIA research gemologists.

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/25/2009 4:22:47 PM
Author: Chrono
My favourite is the ACS pink sapphire because the colour is HOT and intense.

hi Chrono
How would you describe the colour in a technical ?
What kind of saturation or hue does this have?
Thanks

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/25/2009 6:57:48 PM
Author: MakingTheGrade

http://www.atggems.com/Photos_Sapphire.htm

oh wow!~!! the atg gems stone are so pretty!!!
yeaowwwwwww
the pink sapphires are expensive (at least relative to my budget)

the blue sapphires are lovely too!

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/26/2009 8:36:13 AM
Author: Chrono


Due to PS rules, I cannot link you to the discussion on the treatment but suffice it to say, here are a few points that are discussed:

why why?

it would be nice to read and learn more ...
understand different view points in the discussions


ETA : i caught up with all the posts

is the forum by invitation only?

 

[haagen_dazs]

Hi all you techies
Here is another photo of the ACS gemstone (linked somewhere above. you can read the description of the gemstone there)
Would you say that Red is the primary hue and with purple secondary hue and the saturation is medium (is that the right word) hence resulting in a light red = pink? I dont see purple but its described it has some purple in it.
maybe i think purple as something else but anyways.
I dont mind some bits of purple too.


I decided to place an order for it because I am attracted to the colour.
Also i read alot of threads praise excellent colour reproduction in the photos from ACS

Pretty excited..
It will come soon.
Cannot wait

 

[chrono]

Mark,
I definitely see some purple in it, so the description is correct. I consider it is purplish pink (or a light toned red) with strong saturation. All in all, a very rich looking sapphire.