Whiteflash old vs. new ACA

[kenny]

On WF's website can you do a search for only the new-line of ACAs?

Do you still cut the old or classic ACAs?
Or when they are sold that is it?

Do we have to look at the date on the report to figure out if it is new-line?
If so, what was the cut off date?

Also I assume the new-line has IS photos that are all red to the edges like Eightstar and Solasfera, right?

I just did an ACA search for D-F, IF - VS1, 0.5 to 1.5 carat.
Every one of the 13 stones found was the old classic ACA, judging from the white triangular flecks, leakage, at the edges of the IS photos.

Some had more leakage than others, but all had some.

 

[Mara]

You can't search specifically for classic vs new line, they do still cut both, and your best bet is to look at the IS photos to make a quick judgement but I would still ask them if you are interested in a stone to confirm if its new or classic.

The IS with edge to dge light return is new and the classic are more like SuperbCert stones or the ones with some leakage along the edges.

They also have some that I think are 'mixed' in the ES area....where they are kind of a mix between classic and ACA but they aren't technically ACA's so I'm sure they wouldn't say that.

 

[belle]

Date: 3/25/2006 1:10:23 PM
Author:kenny

On WF''s website can you do a search for only the new-line of ACAs?

no

Date: 3/25/2006 1:10:23 PM
Author:kenny

Do you still cut the old or classic ACAs?
Or when they are sold that is it?

yes, they still cut them

Date: 3/25/2006 1:10:23 PM
Author:kenny

Do we have to look at the date on the report to figure out if it is new-line?
If so, what was the cut off date?

no, that won''t tell you. you will need to look at the IS image to determine which is which

Date: 3/25/2006 1:10:23 PM
Author:kenny

Also I assume the new-line has IS photos that are all red to the edges like Eightstar and Solasfera, right?

correct

Date: 3/25/2006 1:10:23 PM
Author:kenny

I just did a search for ACA D-F, IF - VS1 .5 to 1.5 carat.
Every one of the 13 stones found was the old classic ACA, judging from the white triangular flecks, leakage, at the edges of the IS photos.

Some had more than others but all had some.

extremely high color/clarity is not in high demand with the majority of their (ps?) clientle, so the availability of ''classic'' stones is the greastest in these combinations.

.....until someone

starts buying them up!

 

[kenny]

Thank you ladies.

Next, does WF order stones cut to the new specs AND to the old specs?

Or is their new standard the "goal" that ALL are cut to but only some meet, and the others are labled classic?

I ask this because quite frankly some IS photos are almost all red but not quite.
Some have VERY distinct leakage at the girdle and more internal, yet ALL are called ACA.

The range of leakage in WF''s IS pics do not indicate a clear line with precision quality control when it comes to leakage.

 

[Mara]

you might want to call up WF and speak to Lesley or email JQ and ask your questions...they are certainly better qualified to answer... !!

 

[belle]

you''re welcome kenny

Date: 3/25/2006 2:04:07 PM
Author: kenny
Thank you ladies.

Next, does WF order stones cut to the new specs AND to the old specs?

Or is their new standard the ''goal'' that ALL are cut to but only some meet, and the others are labled classic?

that i have no idea about. my assumption was that the increased demand for ''new line'' has led them to produce more of them.

Date: 3/25/2006 2:04:07 PM
Author: kenny

I ask this because quite frankly some IS photos are almost all red but not quite.
Some have VERY distinct leakage at the girdle and more internal, yet ALL are called ACA.

there will be inherent differences. that''s why there are two lines of aca. there is more that goes into a stone being labled aca then the presence or absence of contrast leakage around the girdle.

more about the differences can be found here

 

[kenny]

Mara wrote:
"you might want to call up WF and speak to Lesley or email JQ and ask your questions...they are certainly better qualified to answer... !! "

I guess I could do that but chances are many here would be interested in their answer too so I hope they will post.

Frankly, I wonder if the new stones they are ordering are cut to ONLY the new-line specs, and the term classic is a way to handle the delicate issue of what to do with the stones in their inventory that were cut to their previous spec, or new stones that don't quite make the new-line specs.


I guess one way to be sure is pick a popular stone, say an I SI1 and find what percentage are classic vs. new-line today, (also document the dates on the reports).
Do the same check in a year and see if the classic ACAs are being replaced or being phased out.

 

[kenny]

FYI I just finished a little research on WF's site.
Before I only searched for the upper color and clarity stones. (The only stones I'd consider buying.)


This time I searched in the range of ACAs that there probably is more of a demand for, H-I, VS2-SI1 0.8 ct to 1.25 ct.
It found 18.

I opened each one and looked at the IS photo to try to determine if they looked like classic or new line.
I looked at the IS pic first because I didn't want to be influenced knowing the report date.
Then I noted the date on the AGS report.

I judged only three of eighteen IS pics to be "possible" new line, because they had almost no leakage at the girdle.
All 15 others had leakage more consistent with the classic line.
There were also a few which could go either way.

Of the three possible new line stones, the report dates were:
Feb 2006
March 2005
August 2005

I believe they rolled out the new line about Jan 2005.
But, nine of the ones that looked like classic ACA had report dates AFTER Jan 2005.

This leads me to believe WF either ordered these stones cut to the Classic specs after the new line was rolled out, or they are ordering everything to new-line specs and these nine didn't make the grade of new line and are therefore considered Classic.


So it sounds like if you want a new-line ACA it will be tough to get one since only 16.6% of this popular range were new-line.
Next I wonder if they just cut fewer or they just sell faster???

Knock Knock . . . John, Brian, Leslie?

 

[Gonzodogg]

Date: 3/25/2006 2:04:07 PM
Author: kenny
Thank you ladies.

Next, does WF order stones cut to the new specs AND to the old specs?

WF cuts their own stones. What they "order" is the rough and then they cut it themselves.
(I am not sure if you already knew this but I just wanted to clarify)

 

[kenny]

I'm not sure all of the over 1000 diamonds in WF's vaults are cut in Houston Texas by Brian.
I think the ACAs are cut somewhere else for WF to Brian's specs and the Expert Selection could be cut anywhere but simply pass strict tests of Brian's.
Here are two snips from their website:

Our exclusive, handpicked assortment of round, ideal round and fancy shapes is known as "Expert Selection" and our flagship line of premium superideal rounds is our "A Cut Above" Hearts & Arrows diamonds. We maintain over 1000 diamonds in our vault, all selected for surpassing beauty and performance.


A Cut Above diamonds are designed by Brian Gavin and carefully cut by our Antwerp sightholder.

End of snips.
Perhaps WF will chime in and clarfy.
And if I am asking questions that are proprietary, they can simply say so and I'll hush up.

 

[Gonzodogg]

I did not mean that ALL of the diamonds listed are cut at WF. Most of the diamonds listed are "virtual" stones and if you look at the other vendors, they are listed on their sites as well (the same stone listed byt 5 diferent vendors).

What I meant was that all of their "in house" stone are cut by them - meaning the ACA and ES stones. (The ES stone are cut to be ACA but do not pass the final tests after cutting for one reason or another).

 

[Gonzodogg]

Date: 3/25/2006 4:07:43 PM
Author: kenny

Knock Knock . . . John, Brian, Leslie?

John will probably chime in, but we will have to wait until Monday.

 

[kenny]

I understand.
They have acess to the same 50,000 virtual stones that everyone else has acess to.

Their website says they have over 1000 in in their vaults, I assume these are the ACA and ES that show "in stock" when you query on them.
I doubt all were cut in Houston by Brian.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/25/2006 4:07:43 PM
Author: kenny

So it sounds like if you want a new-line ACA it will be tough to get one since only 16.6% of this popular range were new-line.
Next I wonder if they just cut fewer or they just sell faster???

Knock Knock . . . John, Brian, Leslie?

Hi Kenny,

Fast answer: We have both styles cut in near-equal numbers, but on any given day the percentages may be disproportionate as our stock rotates. I saw your posts but have a friend from college visiting from out of state this evening so I''m Johnny home-maker right now. Our other staff may be enjoying the weekend.

I will certainly give this time later. Thanks for asking. Meanwhile, here are some threads I had bookmarked:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/for-wf-are-there-3-in-house-options-which-come-w-egg-roll.24499/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/idealscope-question-what-is-perfect.35292/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/aca-stone-new-line-or-classic.36907/

 

[kenny]

Thanks John.
Like your pic!

Cook a big gormet feast for your guest!

Enjoy the weekend!

 

[ecf8503]

JQ, please correct me if I am wrong, but - when someone trades in one stone for another, isn''t the "old" stone is sent in again for a new report?

That makes any judgement based on report date a little ambiguous...... an "old" stone will look "new" and no one will ever know..........

 

[Mara]

WF has a factory in Belgium which Brian visits something like once a quarter, and he oversees what is cut there and determines what is going to make ACA and what goes into ES etc. So their in-house diamonds are cut for them to their own specifications. Many of the ES stones are meant to be ACA''s and do not make the grade for the brand, and so they go into the ES section. Also some ES''s are from elsewhere I believe, like the fancies etc. You can almost tell from most of the ES''s specs and the IS if it was what I call an ''almost ACA''...those to me are the best deals.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Kenny, I had a chance to read through your questions. Here is information for you and others interested in the particulars.

Classic and New Line are produced in nearly equal numbers. On any given day the percentages may be disproportionate, as stock rotates. Brian’s original ACA design was what we now call Classic, dating back to 1998. New Line was introduced several years ago because of escalating consumer demand for the edge-to-edge light return made popular among connoisseurs by Eightstar. Brian designed a different finishing approach so his ‘New Line’ brand – featuring edge-to-edge return with Brian’s ACA recipe for visual balance - would be available to our clients.

Date: 3/25/2006 4:07:43 PM
Author: kenny
This leads me to believe WF either ordered these stones cut to the Classic specs after the new line was rolled out, or they are ordering everything to new-line specs and these nine didn't make the grade of new line and are therefore considered Classic.

No. Kenny, it sounds like you are thinking an all-red/black reflector image is the goal for every diamond (?) It is certainly not. Each diamond is its own unique story. The rough itself determines which approach will be used. We can’t just ‘order up’ 20 Classic and 20 New Line, it doesn’t work like that. During the cutting process certain rough will allow itself to be made into New Line and other lends itself to Classic. We have not distinguished between them because most people who purchase ACA don’t know or concern themselves with those distinctions. People here on PS have learned about them, but remember the larger picture: For the average pedestrian either is simply a beautifully performing diamond.

Date: 3/25/2006 2:04:07 PM
Author: kenny
The range of leakage in WF's IS pics do not indicate a clear line with precision quality control when it comes to leakage.

When we’re talking about craftsmanship at this level (whether ACA or other brands with tight control) this is objurgating. Have you seen IS images for average diamonds? If you haven’t I can get some images for you. The majority of diamonds sold by top PS vendors have robust light return and optical symmetry, so we all become ‘spoiled’ on Pricescope as we comb through 40X magnified images. With New Line it may help to remember that the all-red/black reflector image is a by-product, but not the penultimate goal. 100% red/black or 90% can be compared to the negligible difference between VVS1 and VVS2. Each diamond is its own unique story and the rough itself determines how far one may go. The brillianteerer must use his good judgment as the diamond runs on the wheel in his hands. Remember, the labs scrutinize painting - as you may be aware from recent threads. Brian would rather have 95% edge-to-edge red and avoid going too far, than work for 100% at the expense of contrast. Diamonds are judged in reality, not in reflectors. In real life, take 2 New Line ACA diamonds of the same size/proportions: 1 has 100% apparent edge-to-edge red/black, the other has somewhat less: Human eyes will not perceive the minute difference. The goal is always maximum visual balance, brightness and contrast.

A good exercise might be for you to go into some reputable, exclusive retail jewelry stores with an ideal-scope (and H&A viewer) and sample what is out there in the real world, even at tremendous premiums. Compare what you see to the ‘quality control’ seen in the inventories of many top PS vendors.

I hope this helps. Your interest in ACA, and fine details like these, is appreciated.

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 3/26/2006 2:26:39 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

...Have you seen IS images for average diamonds? If you haven’t I can get some images for you...

OOOH! OOOOH! OOOOH! Not Kenny, but if you get a chance, I personally would LOVE to see those images!

Thank you, John!

 

[kenny]

Thank very much John for taking the time to answer all my nit pickey questions.
I guess that's the danger of putting up so much info on the net.
Some nerd will have nothing better to do on his Saturday than push the envelope and come up withmore questions and weird conclusions.

I DO have an IS, one of the Pro models form Mr. Holloway.
I do take it, and my Schneider loupe, into jewelry stores and ask to use it on loose stones.
They are horrofied.
But not as horrofied as I am when I see the junk they pass off as their best cuts.

I realize I am a splitting-hairs kind of guy.
You should have seen me shopping for my grand piano a few years ago.
I think 10 salesmen wanted to kill me.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/26/2006 2:27:33 PM
Author: Lynn B

Date: 3/26/2006 2:26:39 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

...Have you seen IS images for average diamonds? If you haven’t I can get some images for you...

OOOH! OOOOH! OOOOH! Not Kenny, but if you get a chance, I personally would LOVE to see those images!

Thank you, John!

LOL Lynn. Okay, am I seriously dating myself by thinking of Arnold Horshack when I read your post? (...reruns - it must be reruns I remember.)

I have limited ‘net access today, but this page will work: The 4 ‘good’ and ‘fair’ examples (light return and symmetry) are representative of what is found using ideal-scope on the diamonds adorning many pedestrians.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart.asp

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/26/2006 2:51:32 PM
Author: kenny

Thank very much John for taking the time to answer all my nit pickey questions.
I guess that's the danger of putting up so much info on the net.
Some nerd will have nothing better to do on his Saturday than push the envelope and come up withmore questions and weird conclusions.

I DO have an IS, one of the Pro models form Mr. Holloway.
I do take it, and my Schneider loupe, into jewelry stores and ask to use it on loose stones.
They are horrofied.
But not as horrofied as I am when I see the junk they pass off as their best cuts.

I realize I am a splitting-hairs kind of guy.
You should have seen me shopping for my grand piano a few years ago.
I think 10 salesmen wanted to kill me.

Kenny, you’re welcome. As mentioned, others may have similar curiosity. If some of your questions come up in the future this will be a good thread to reference.

As I recall, your tenacity got you a $60K piano for 40% back. I did much hair-splitting, envelope pushing and conclusion developing myself when I was shopping for a new home theater system a while back. Fortunately I had very patient people on the receiving end of my eternal Qs (or they put on a good act). As for PS, some very astute consumer enthusiasts have started here with one or two questions and now know more about all of this than many in the trade.

 

[Gonzodogg]

Date: 3/27/2006 2:15:21 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

As I recall, your tenacity got you a $60K piano for 40% back. I did much hair-splitting, envelope pushing and conclusion developing myself when I was shopping for a new home theater system a while back. Fortunately I had very patient people on the receiving end of my eternal Qs (or they put on a good act). As for PS, some very astute consumer enthusiasts have started here with one or two questions and now know more about all of this than many in the trade.

LOL, and it doesn''t take much reading on PS to know A LOT more than most.