wishy-washiness on other big issues?

[SoonIHope]

Hi Janine, back to what you were saying a minute ago...

My (now) fiance sounds a lot like your boyfriend! He isn''t OPPOSED to big changes but he just takes A LOT OF TIME to come around. And the one thing he hates more than anything is feeling like a decision isn''t completely "his" which results in lots of frustration both ways. Basically, I knew (& he TOLD me HE knew) that he wanted to marry me and have children with me years ago, but even after he knows he wants something it takes him a number of months to really accept that we''re going to go through with it. So I have to strike the fine balance between talking about [major life change] enough that he gets used to the idea so it isn''t as foreign and scary, and not talking about it TOO much because then if he agrees to it, then it was MY idea and he''s just going along with it. I know that it has nothing to do with his feelings for me or regarding marriage/children/whatever, but it is still a facet of his personality that can be extremely frustrating at times!!! And it definitely isn''t event-specific; he''s just one of those guys who likes to be REALLY REALLY REALLY sure about every decision he makes. For example, it took him months to research which phone to buy! And major life decisions often take even longer...

But once he''s completely on board, he''s 100% into whatever decision he makes!

So if your boyfriend''s like mine, just hang on and I bet he''ll work through it! Hopefully this is more what you''re dealing with than the type of person others seem to be talking about...Good luck!!

 

[janinegirly]

albiocca---yes! your fiance sounds just like my bf! it''s not easy to deal with though, and especially since I''m approaching my mid-30''s, I feel like I have to remind him he can''t take his time indefinitely. Of course that just stresses him out and he becomes paralyzed with indecision.
anyway, i really appreciate your post and boy did it sound familar. Also we moved to a new apt 4 mo''s ago..and we STILL have no proper furniture. It just takes him soooo long. I tried to just say I''d go out and buy a bunch of stuff, but he doesn''t want that..says it''s a waste of $$, let''s do it properly and research. So yea, it is a trait of his that is magnified when it comes to bigger decisions.

 

[SoonIHope]

Hehe, yeah janine, that sounds familiar!

I think it''s just soooo hard on PS (or the internet in general - or even in real life!!) to tell if someone is dragging their feet because That''s Just The Way They Are but they''re still completely committed to a future together etc, or if it''s a real warning sign. I mean, that''s pretty much THE LIW rant, isn''t it?

In any case, you know your guy best, and I just wanted to let you know there ARE other guys out there like that who are able to make the big decisions eventually and come through for us!! Here''s hoping yours is next on the list!

 

[jasper]

Janine,

In the case of Marie and I, it was Marie that took a long time to conclude that "Kids would be nice." Fortunately for us, she did not accept my marriage proposal until she had come to that conclusion.

Some of her worries included:
What if we can't have children?
Would I still be there for her, for the rest of our lives, even if we can't have children?
She had trouble imagining life with children.
Having children takes sacrifices. Was she willing to change her life accordingly?
She did not like moving frequently when she was a child. Would we be settled enough that our children could keep the friends they make?
She was underimpressed by some of her schools. Would our kids have to put up with that?

These worries were a big deal. It was well worth resolving them before deciding to get married. Here are some thoughts that helped us get to that point:

In the Catholic tradition, "children are a gift from God". (The implication is that humans do not have complete control of if, how many, or what kinds of children are born to us.) Marrying couples are expected to be "willing to accept the gift of children", even if that is the "gift" of childlessness. (Jesus discussed this in Matthew 19:3-15.) Even an agnostic can find great wisdom in this tradition.

We talked about what it would be like to raise children... Practical things like what dinner time might be like. We considered possible names, and things that we could teach them. Not surprisingly, she was more interested in things to teach the girl(s). John Malloy reports that most guys are interested in things to teach the boy(s), like how to throw a baseball, or how to fix a truck. We talked about how to arrange a house so that there would be room for the kids' games, and places for them to study. We will set down roots so that the kids don't have to move. We talked about enough "supplements" to the kids schooling (such as her teaching them music and sewing and cooking and reading, and my teaching them math and history and engineering) that it started to sound like a full course instead of just supplements. So we will homeschool the kid(s), if we are lucky enough to have them.

John Gottman has found that having a child can either strengthen a marriage, or drive a wedge between the husband and wife. The trick is to bring the husband along on the journey, so that he feels comfortable playing with the baby, changing the baby's diapers, et cetera. One couple I know made a point of getting a cat (which happened to have kittens promptly), so that the husband would be in a child-raising mood even before their first child was born.

So I encourage you to share your dreams about raising children with your suitor, and encourage him to imagine what it would be like to raise a boy. I hope he comes around.

Sincerely yours,

Jasper

 

[diamondfan]

The kids issue is a biggie. Since you cannot compromise on it really, it is better to know where someone stands. (I guess you could have one child, and compromise if you wanted a big family and your dh wants a small one, but overall it is usually kids or no kids that becomes the focal point.). Some guys really fear the life changes that come with kids, and they do, no matter what. Being more organized and planning well certainly helps, but it is, plain and simple, a lot of work and time and effort and certain things change when a baby comes. Maybe his fears are real and rational and maybe they are more vague and out there, but a talk about what exactly is causing him to be unsure would help. Maybe he will never have a clear sense, and will never agree to kids now. It is hard to know, but a serious talk about what would make him decided to have kids or not would be worthwhile in my opinion! Good luck and take a deep breath. Hopefully it will all work out for you.

 

[musey]

My bf is only hesitant on the proposal... he points out cute babies when we''re out and talks about how fun it will be to be a dad.

It kind of happened out of the blue though, about a year ago I think. Around the same time he started phrasing things as "when" we get engaged/married/have kids, instead of "if." hmmm...

 

[firebirdgold]

Date: 10/3/2006 12:29:50 AM
Author: jasper
We talked about what it would be like to raise children... Practical things like what dinner time might be like. We considered possible names, and things that we could teach them. Not surprisingly, she was more interested in things to teach the girl(s). .............

We talked about enough ''supplements'' to the kids schooling (such as her teaching them music and sewing and cooking and reading, and my teaching them math and history and engineering) that it started to sound like a full course instead of just supplements.

So I encourage you to share your dreams about raising children with your suitor, and encourage him to imagine what it would be like to raise a boy. I hope he comes around.

EXCUSE ME?!?!

What century are you living in ''cause I think you''re running about two behind?!

My father taught me to throw a baseball, play soccer, fish, change my tires, make car salesmen cry, wash dishes, pick stocks, art history and appreciation, politics, economics, how to iron clothes, and how to program a computer.

So for G''s sake, tell me you''re going to teach your girls math and engineering, and your wife will teach them the boys to sew and cook too! Please?!

 

[jasper]

Date: 10/3/2006 9:57:56 AM
Author: IndieJones

My father taught me to throw a baseball, play soccer, fish, change my tires, make car salesmen cry, wash dishes, pick stocks, art history and appreciation, politics, economics, how to iron clothes, and how to program a computer.

So for G''s sake, tell me you''re going to teach your girls math and engineering, and your wife will teach them the boys to sew and cook too!

Indie,

I am glad your father taught you these things.

Of course we will teach both the boys and the girls these things. And I expect any girl(s) we have to be just as good at math and science as any boy(s) we have (of course making allowances for the fact that no two people have identical interests). An advantage of homeschooling is that we can adjust the teaching methods to draw on their interests to teach things.

As for who teaches the kids what, that is mostly a matter of convenience. You know, practical things like who is home at the time, and who knows the subjects well enough to teach them. It happens that:

* Marie knits, and I don''t; so she will probably teach the kids how to knit.

* We will teach the kids to cook as we cook (and wash the dishes). I am sure that they will see that both of us cook (and wash dishes). But it happens that Marie cooks more often than I do.

* Neither of us know how to fish. If we happen to be in the same area, would you like to give lessons?

* I happen to be an engineer, so I feel more comfortable teaching math and science than Marie does.

* Whereas, Marie is a graphics programmer; she is more comfortable teaching graphics programming than I am.

* Marie''s father taught her how to sew. She is currently teaching me how to sew. Unfortunately, I am allergic to irons -- they give me second degree burns. (Like the saying goes, "Once burned, twice shy." I burned a finger a couple of times as a child while ironing under adult supervision. Should the saying be "Twice burned makes an allergy?") So Marie would be better at teaching sewing than I would.

* Due to vision problems, Marie never expects to be able to drive. So I will teach the driving, car care, and how to negotiate with car salesmen so that nobody has to cry.

* Marie does more gardening than I do; she will teach the kids how to plant, and I will teach them how to prune the grapes.

* Marie is a drummer. Whereas I cannot hold a beat, let alone a tune. Surely it is better that she sets up the kids'' music lessons?

About what John Malloy wrote. He was reporting the results of his "market research" on how women convince men to propose. He found that many men worry about whether they will have the chance to teach a son how to play baseball. As for me, I don''t like baseball, because I am lousy at it. But soccer and basketball sound like good things to play with the kids.

The point is to encourage your partner to imagine the joys of raising children. Since Marie has an easier time imagining what it would be like to raise a daughter, I encouraged her to do that -- and it worked. If your beau has an easier time imagining raising a girl, encourage him to do so. But if he imagines raising a boy, that is also a fine place to start.

-- Jasper

 

[janinegirly]

geez jasper, do you leave anything to just be? sounds like you have every moment dissected with plans of attack, parental assignment,etc.

I'm not criticizing, it's just different. And who knits these days? Where do you live and are you already married..i think i missed out on a few details..

 

[Mandarine]

Indie...I didn't read the entire response Jasper gave you but just wanted to say that I think you might have misread what he said in his original post. I think he was referring more to what each parent could teach (based on the parents' fortes), not differentiating between what they would teach a boy vs a girl.

At least that's how I interpreted the post.

M~

 

[firebirdgold]

I''m sorry I misinterpreted his post, and I apologize for overreacting.

Mea Culpa.

 

[Mandarine]

hehe, I would have reacted the same way if I would have understood it like you did. I''m an engineer so I''m used to being mostly around "boys"...if I thought anybody was criticizing that I would also be ticked off!

Just wanted to point it out before we got deeper into a discussion based on misinterpretations

M~

 

[jasper]

Date: 10/3/2006 1:56:16 PM
Author: IndieJones
I''m sorry I misinterpreted his post, and I apologize for overreacting.

Mea Culpa.

Indie,

I am sorry I wrote the original post in a way that was so easy to misinterpret. Thank you for your apology; I forgive you.

-- Jasper

 

[jasper]

Date: 10/3/2006 1:25:03 PM
Author: Mandarine
Indie...I didn''t read the entire response Jasper gave you but just wanted to say that I think you might have misread what he said in his original post. I think he was referring more to what each parent could teach (based on the parents'' fortes), not differentiating between what they would teach a boy vs a girl.

At least that''s how I interpreted the post.

M~

Mandarine,

Yes, that is what I meant.

Thank you for letting me know that I didn''t completely mangle the post.

-- Jasper

 

[jasper]

Date: 10/3/2006 12:18:44 PM
Author: janinegirly
geez jasper, do you leave anything to just be? sounds like you have every moment dissected with plans of attack, parental assignment,etc.

I''m not criticizing, it''s just different.

Janine,

Marie and I have not so much planned things out, as shared some daydreams. Like:

"Gee, this is fun! Wouldn''t it be great to teach this to the kids some day?"
"Well, maybe you can, because I''m not really good at it. I never was good at ______."
"OK, I''ll do it. We can do ____, and ____, and ____."
(... long conversation about the joys of _____...)
"And I can help! I can take them to the ______ and show them _____."
"That sounds fun. Maybe we can do that sometime?"

-- Jasper

 

[jasper]

Date: 10/3/2006 12:18:44 PM
Author: janinegirly
And who knits these days? Where do you live and are you already married..i think i missed out on a few details..

Janine,

Marie and I live (separately) in Seattle. We met at the 1999 origami conference in Seattle. We will get married in July. And a few hints are in some of my old posts here, and on my web site.

Marie has knitted for many years. I think she learned it from her grandparents, so that she could make Christmas presents for her parents. Knitting has become surprisingly popular among 20-something women in Seattle, especially since the Stitch'n' Bitch books started coming out. Marie knits on bus-rides, long car trips, and any time I seem to be taking too long to do something :-\ At least she says she's not bored when she's knitting...

-- Jasper

 

[firebirdgold]

I knit too when I''m watching tv, keeps my hands busy.

And I promise to never again post before my first cup of coffee in the morning!

 

[janinegirly]

thanks for filling in some gaps jasper! knitting sounds like a new phenomenon over there, wonder if it''ll ever hit here in NYC..
Good luck with the wedding planning, sounds like you and your fiancee are a perfect match!

 

[SoonIHope]

Date: 10/4/2006 9:23:35 AM
Author: janinegirly
thanks for filling in some gaps jasper! knitting sounds like a new phenomenon over there, wonder if it''ll ever hit here in NYC..

Good luck with the wedding planning, sounds like you and your fiancee are a perfect match!

I think it HAS hit in NYC! I know a ton of people here (and all over the country) that knit! There are several knitting stores in the city too. I don''t actually knit myself, but I keep coming across the stores and hearing people talk about it so I''ve been considering getting into it...I remember having a lot of fun with it when I was like 10 but I have since forgotten it all.

And Jasper - for the record, I interpreted your earlier post the way you meant it! Nothing wrong with each teaching what you''re good at, and daydreaming about it in advance!