Women''s Rights are at Risk

[oddporcupine]

Momoftwo,

I just have to say that I specifically joined this forum so that I could respond to your comments. You really need to get your facts straight before you start speaking as if everything you say is the word of god. The first thing I want to comment on is what you said about condoms and STD''s.

You said:
"The pill is like 98% and condoms are like 80%." and "And don''t forget the fact that sexually transmitted disesases are rampant among those using condoms since they have a 20% failure rate, and not just for pregnancy."

That is just completely wrong. Condoms are 97% effective in preventing both pregnancy and disease unless used incorrectly. The same could be said about the pill and pregnancy. Here is a link to provide you more information on that subject since you seem to be in desperate need of the education: http://www.coolnurse.com/sex_faqs20.htm

Next you said:
"Fact: The result of human conception is a human baby. Period. The heart starts beating in a matter of days after conception, before women even know they are pregnant."

This is NOT a fact as you say it is. The fact is that a baby''s heart doesnt even form until the 6th week after conception. The brain and spinal cord dont even form until the 4th week. This is hardly a matter of days so get your facts straight before you start condemning people. Again, here is a link for your educational needs: http://www.birth.com.au/class.asp?class=6634&page=7

You also said:
"Abuse is not about not wanting a child, it''s about not being able to parent due to many different things."

Again this is just wrong. Abuse is about power. Its as simple as that and any doctor or psychologist/psychiatrist will tell you so. It has nothing to do with parenting skills.

The last thing you said that I want to comment on is this:
"White families can and do adopt black and biracial children all the time. I personally know two familes who have."

This just annoys me because I have read a lot of your posts on this board and you seem to know someone to back up everyone of your points. How convenient it is for you to be living in a perfect world unlike the rest of us.

You seem to be extremely judgemental. Have you ever tried to put yourself in someone elses shoes? Do you have any understanding of the meaning of the word empathy? Or perhaps you just dont have the capacity for it. The things you do and the things you choose may work for you and they may be right for you but its extremely narrow minded to think that your way is the right way for everyone. If you dont want to have an abortion dont have one. If you want to abstain from sex to prevent pregnancy and teach that to your kids thats fine, do that. if you want to be a stay at home mom because you believe it is the best for your children, great, be the best mom for your children. Thats wonderful if you follow your heart and do what you believe. But dont degrade the rest of us for choosing to do things differently. Dont make us feel bad because we follow our dreams and do what we feel is right for us and for our children and families. What it really boils down to is that there are over 6 billion people on this earth and to believe that everyone should behave in the same manner is simply ridiculous.

Stop forcing your opinions on other people and acting like you are the only one who knows what they are talking about because as I have proven in the beginning of this post there are things you clearly dont know. You are entitled to your opinions and so is everyone else. Perhaps yo could try stating your opinions in a way that doesnt make everyone else feel like you are attacking them. I know that I am attacking you right now but that is only because I am so sick of you telling everyone else they are wrong. Its time for a reality check. Nothing is as black and white as you try to make it out to be. The world isnt perfect, we arent perfect, and neither are you.

 

[ForteKitty]

Date: 10/30/2004 10:54

4 PM
Author: Momoftwo

All children are wanted by someone.


You don''t have to sleep with your boyfriend to keep him if he''s worth anything, and if he leaves, he wasn''t worth it. It''s called self-esteem.

1. If all children are wanted by someone, can you explain why so many are in orphanages?

2. Who said we''re having sex to keep a guy?? Women have needs too... we don''t just lie there and let the guys have all the pleasure!

 

[Camellia]

3 cheers for Oddporcupine!!! You summed up my feelings beautifully - thank you.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/1/2004 7:32

8 AM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 10/31/2004 7:15:46 PM
Author: Nicrez
I hate to admit it, but I know of a coworker I once had who had gotten an abortion 3 times. She was very young when she had her first one. The last two were with her boyfriend of 5 years...

.....

I believe that too many people use abortion as a method of birth control, especially women who could afford to have children and are of the age. It IS a known fact that the majority of abortions are NOT welfare women, but married young women who are employed. If awareness of prevention was more widespread, I would hope that abortion wouldn''t be such a hot button topic.

I''ll grab Nicrez''s post for comment since it provides an example.. I feel so ignored in these threads since the more extreme views seem to be easier to argue against...

Anyway, does anyone think that this method of birthcontrol is acceptable?? The one early, ok, she was young and may not have been capable of raising a child (did she have a family to support her?).. But when you get to 2 or 3, I have to ask, its this something we want in our society??

Steve

Steve, we hear you. I''m not ignoring you. I completely concur. I would reckon a guess that nobody is "pro- abortion". But, abuse of a right happens with anything. I don''t think you can legislate the limits on how many abortions one can have.

On the flip side, you can''t legislate that an 18 year old can''t have 5 children. In fact, our welfare system encourages this in the form of cash incentive. That''s why the federal funding for abortion outcry isn''t heard for me. I''d love to see exactly how much funding for abortion exists, especially verses monies spent on children in the welfare system.

But then, don''t get me started. Why would some healthcare providers pay for Viagra & not pay for birth control?

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/1/2004 12:16:20 AM
Author: oddporcupine
Momoftwo,

This just annoys me because I have read a lot of your posts on this board and you seem to know someone to back up everyone of your points. How convenient it is for you to be living in a perfect world unlike the rest of us.

You seem to be extremely judgemental. Have you ever tried to put yourself in someone elses shoes? Do you have any understanding of the meaning of the word empathy? Or perhaps you just dont have the capacity for it. . Nothing is as black and white as you try to make it out to be. The world isnt perfect, we arent perfect, and neither are you.

I couldn''t be more on the same page with you. I''m sure she will know someone very dear who has a child with special needs & how clearly wonderful their life is. When in fact, perhaps only in a perfect world.

People can have opinions. People can live by their convictions. People can voice what they believe is a wrong. But, when stated opinion becomes *fact*, I stop listening.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 10/31/2004 3:34:59 PM
Author: Feydakin
''PS-Congressman Barney Franks said that conservatives'' concern for children begins at conception and ends at birth.  I only wish the conservatives fought as hard for children after birth as they do for fetuses.''

I''d love to see concrete examples of these issues..

Steve

And, I''d like to see concrete examples of Pro-lifer''s trying to educate the public on how *not* to get pregnant. While I''m not knocking absitenence - please in a perfect world.

And, I''d like to see concrete examples of Pro-lifer''s having classes for women who are pregnant. And, any adoption of late that I know of was either handled by a social worker or an attorney. No pro-lifer''s involved.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/1/2004 7:32

8 AM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 10/31/2004 7:15:46 PM

Author: Nicrez

I hate to admit it, but I know of a coworker I once had who had gotten an abortion 3 times. She was very young when she had her first one. The last two were with her boyfriend of 5 years...


.....


I believe that too many people use abortion as a method of birth control, especially women who could afford to have children and are of the age. It IS a known fact that the majority of abortions are NOT welfare women, but married young women who are employed. If awareness of prevention was more widespread, I would hope that abortion wouldn''t be such a hot button topic.

I''ll grab Nicrez''s post for comment since it provides an example.. I feel so ignored in these threads since the more extreme views seem to be easier to argue against...


Anyway, does anyone think that this method of birthcontrol is acceptable?? The one early, ok, she was young and may not have been capable of raising a child (did she have a family to support her?).. But when you get to 2 or 3, I have to ask, its this something we want in our society??


Steve

Since I have no moral qualms about abortions in the first trimester, I do not have any moral qualms about a woman having multiple abortions. On the other hand, I do not think it is good for anyone to have many. One of my friends-the one with 3-was afraid she would be unable to conceive when she wanted to. How good can it be for a woman''s health to have three? Also: she did not WANT to get pregnant and have abortions. Abortions hurt and cost money. None of my friends ever went into one happily, even when that friend had no moral qualms about having one. Each time a friend went, it was with dread.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/1/2004 9:31

0 AM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 11/1/2004 8:53:18 AM
Author: fire&ice
And, I''d like to see concrete examples of Pro-lifer''s trying to educate the public on how *not* to get pregnant. While I''m not knocking absitenence - please in a perfect world.

And, I''d like to see concrete examples of Pro-lifer''s having classes for women who are pregnant. And, any adoption of late that I know of was either handled by a social worker or an attorney. No pro-lifer''s involved.

My daughter''s public high school seems to do just fine in this area.. There is some kid sex going on, but the vast majority of the kids there think those people are sluts and they are pretty much ignored but the general kid population.. And how do you know that those social workers and attorney''s are NOT pro-life??

Steve

Perhaps they could be pro life.

That being said, I don''t know about your school system. But, I can tell you it *was* the pro-life religious right that wanted to *prohibit* any form of sex ed except don''t do it.

Curious as to the age of your daughter. I know from my middle school ed. that this is normal for 7th graders & 8th graders. It''s when you start hitting the high school level where it gets dicey.

 

[jenwill]

Date: 11/1/2004 10:36:39 AM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 11/1/2004 9:42:27 AM
Author: fire&ice
Perhaps they could be pro life.

That being said, I don''t know about your school system. But, I can tell you it *was* the pro-life religious right that wanted to *prohibit* any form of sex ed except don''t do it.

Curious as to the age of your daughter. I know from my middle school ed. that this is normal for 7th graders & 8th graders. It''s when you start hitting the high school level where it gets dicey.

We were standing down front since there was no where left to stand and my dad pointed out that there were almost no single parents in the stands.. It was all families.. Perhaps that makes a difference..

Steve

Ouch! As the child of a single parent, ouch. It is not impossible for a child of a single parent to make national honor society. In fact, I would bet that there are a number that do. You mentioned that there were ALMOST no single parents in the crowd. You also said that you live in an area that has a large religious communnity and is in a rural area. Perhaps that influences this observation more than the ability of a single parent to raise a child with the capabilities to make the same honor societies as your child did. There are perhaps just fewer single parent families in your region.

 

[ClownFishFunk]

Date: 11/1/2004 9:31

0 AM
Author: Feydakin

My daughter''s public high school seems to do just fine in this area.. There is some kid sex going on, but the vast majority of the kids there think those people are sluts and they are pretty much ignored but the general kid population.. And how do you know that those social workers and attorney''s are NOT pro-life??

Steve

I just thought I would comment on this because I am pretty young, just a few years out of high school, and in my high school it was extremely rare to find a person that was NOT having sex. Most of the people in the ''popular crowd'' would throw parties and they would all end up having sex with different people every weekend. Those that weren''t in this situation were still most likely having sex, except with a long-term boyfriend (which I don''t really think is a problem after a certain age) as opposed to just with random friends. As far as sex-education, we had a few special classes on it and watched a few videos over the years but that was about it. I can remember atleast 2 pregnancies and one abortion that took place while I was in high school, but I also remember a lot of people questioning and worried that they had gotten pregnant (though in the end they were not). I have also noticed that with each year people of younger and younger ages began having sex, not to mention using drugs and alcohol. Of course, this is just my high school, and I can''t comment on what is happening anywhere else, but I thought I''d try to add some extra perspective from my high school experience.

 

[ClownFishFunk]

Date: 11/1/2004 12:16:20 AM
Author: oddporcupine

I agree wholeheartedly with oddporcupine, you summed up my feelings much better than i could express myself.

 

[ForteKitty]

In my area, the National Honor Society kids were the popular ones with the crazy parties. They''re the ones involved in ASB, yearbook staff, and the ones who went on to Ivy League schools and are now extremely successful. Sex was common, but most kept it quiet. My high school was also lower-middle class to middle class with a LOTof single parents... maybe 20-30%.

My friend''s nearby HS was upper class with very few divorces (6 or 7 out of a class of 1000). However, in his school, Drugs, alcohol, and sex were EVERYWHERE! People were sleeping with each other, each other''s exes, and with people in nearby schools. Kids were selling drugs out of their lockers... and none of the cheap ones either... pure coke, meth, and a lot of Ecstasy. Surprisingly, most of them went on to Ivy Leagues schools too.

But if you ask parents of either school whether or not their kids are drug-free virgins, they''ll tell you they''re 100% sure their kids are innocent.

My point? just that it can happen anywhere to anyone, and there''s a good chance you wont ever know your kid''s one of them... unless you stalk them!

 

[ClownFishFunk]

Date: 11/1/2004 3:37:26 PM
Author: Feydakin
We went the other direction with our daughter.. We talk to her a lot.. And she has goals for her life that do not include having children any time soon.. She has no problem telling a guy to go get stuffed if they get too carried away.. I don''t need to scare them, she does great at that on her own

Steve

(BTW, this is not directed only/entirely at you, it just gave me some ideas)

I just felt the need to point out that not all people who have sex before they are married are irresponsible or have a lack of self esteem. While I wholeheartedly agree on the importance of someone to be able to say "No," I also feel that even teenagers can be responsible and have enough self esteem to decide on their own when they are ready. I have no qualms about a person having sex before they are married or even having sex with someone they may not be entirely sure they will be with forever. Of course, if you are young I think it should be with a long term partner, and most definitely you need to take the proper steps to prevent pregnancy and transmittance of STDs. But isnt it possible that some girls who have sex have enough self esteem to know that its ok to be having sex? That they have enough self esteem to know they waited for the right point and that they can now enjoy it with no regrets? I feel if a person takes the steps to actively prevent pregnancy, then they should not be expected to wait until they are ready to have children to have sex. And what if a person doesn''t want children at all? Should they have to withhold from sex their entire life, or otherwise be forced to carry the child for nine months and then give up a child to an adoption agency - it is when people are careless with prevention that abortion becomes a problem, and possibly an escape tactic.

 

[Camellia]

Feydakin

You daughter sounds like a very strong person who knows what she wants out of life. I wish her the very best.

As a child-free adult I have my views of what is required of a good parent. And I believe a strong sense of responsibility and a commitment to your children is required. My parents were always there for me and still are. This is a reason why I choose not to have children - it's a big responsibility and I don't know that I can live up to it.

A comment was made in an earlier post about it being selfish to have an abortion. Well I think it's selfish to have children and not commit 100% to their well-being. If you don't think you can give them everything they deserve (in particular love, support and attention, not just the material requirements), I think it's selfish to go ahead and have them. Children are not puppies that can be palmed off on someone else when you are sick of them. As a parent you are responsible for their well-being until they can look after themselves - and even then beyond that in terms of family support. (By the way, I don't think much of people who don't take pet-ownership seriously either.)

I'm pleased to see that this thread has developed into a positive discussion.

Clownfishfunk

I agree with you too.

 

[ClownFishFunk]

Date: 11/1/2004 4:37:20 PM
Author: Camellia
Feydakin

You daughter sounds like a very strong person who knows what she wants out of life. I wish her the very best.

A comment was made in an earlier post about it being selfish to have an abortion. Well I think it''s selfish to have children and not commit 100% to their well-being. If you don''t think you can give them everything they deserve (in particular love, support and attention, not just the material requirements), I think it''s selfish to go ahead and have them. Children are not puppies that can be palmed off on someone else when you are sick of them. As a parent you are responsible for their well-being until they can look after themselves - and even then beyond that in terms of family support. (By the way, I don''t think much of people who don''t take pet-ownership seriously either.)

Well said!

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/1/2004 10:36:39 AM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 11/1/2004 9:42:27 AM
Author: fire&ice
Perhaps they could be pro life.

That being said, I don''t know about your school system. But, I can tell you it *was* the pro-life religious right that wanted to *prohibit* any form of sex ed except don''t do it.

Curious as to the age of your daughter. I know from my middle school ed. that this is normal for 7th graders & 8th graders. It''s when you start hitting the high school level where it gets dicey.

My daughter is 17.. Goes to HS in the morning and college in the afternoon.. She is aware of one pregnancy in her school in 4 years.. We live in the country, with a rather large religious community (we have Amish all around us and more churches than liquor stores) even though we don''t go to church, she has tried out many on her own.. Her school teaches Abstinence first and foremeost.. But, they also explain the rest of the story to them.. The vast bulk of the kids here are waiting patiently for marriage before they have sex..

We are all also very involved in our kids lives.. I went to a National Honor Society induction a few years ago.. 32 kids were inducted.. It was standing room only in the gym with all of the parents, siblings, grandparents, in the stands supporting our kids.. We were standing down front since there was no where left to stand and my dad pointed out that there were almost no single parents in the stands.. It was all families.. Perhaps that makes a difference..

Steve

Wow! Sounds like you *do* live in Pleasantville.

Families - yep. And, peers with the lack of peer pressure - or peer pressure the right way. I want to add that living in the country is very different. You have so much more of a connection that things become clearer. And, you know what I mean. Taking life slower. Being so connected to your environment. You don''t have that in your face keeping up with the Jones. People mind their own business; but are there quickly to help if need be. You have a true sense of belonging to something bigger. But, I don''t think you find this community much anymore. Our "town/county", which is close to a metropolitan city, does all it can to preserve the rural nature.

For the record, I see only positive things about teaching absinence - as long as the facts of life are presented - and options explored.

She sounds like a great kid.

 

[Momoftwo]

I do know two white families that adopted through Fairfax County VA and both adopted black or biracial children. I guess the FEDERAL LAW I quoted means nothing. I feel sorry for all of you who think babies don''t deserve to live unless the person who is pregnant wants them. That is a a sad commentary on this society.

And, where are these orphanages all these unwanted children are in? There are foster homes, but I don''t know of an orphanage still in existence in this country? Most kids in foster homes are there because they''ve been removed temporarily from their homes. Some will eventually be released for adoption, when a judge finally cuts ties, but that takes years.

Anything can happen to anyone, but those people have to be responsible for the results. My boys (in college) have both made commitments to stay pure til marriage. If they don''t for whatever reason, I will still love and respect them for their commitments, but they have so far. Not all kids have sex before marriage or use drugs.

My point about abuse was that kids who are abused aren''t necessarily not wanted before they were born. That''s a totally different subject and a common pro-choice argument that has no legs.

Is Planned Parenthood a for profit business? It''s certainly not a nonprofit.

And, by the way when I say I know someone, it''s because I do. I know who I know.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/1/2004 4:37:20 PM
Author: Camellia
Feydakin

I think it''s selfish to go ahead and have them. Children are not puppies that can be palmed off on someone else when you are sick of them. As a parent you are responsible for their well-being until they can look after themselves - and even then beyond that in terms of family support. (By the way, I don''t think much of people who don''t take pet-ownership seriously either.)

I''m pleased to see that this thread has developed into a positive discussion.

Clownfishfunk

I agree with you too.

I''m with you on the responsibility of pet ownership. To take it one step further, my parents got me involved with our dog. I would do junior show & obedience. It was a great hobby & a *great* excuse why I wasn''t at the parties. It''s tough on teenagers to say "no" - be it sex, drug, alcohol, etc. Always give them an "out" & something other than fire & brimstone to make them *think* for themselves. For my niece, I talk about the future & "trust". Maybe it''s me; but, I think it''s easier to trust someone who gives greater thought to having sex than someone who hops into bed with anyone. And, you only have *one* first time.

Also, I don''t think that just because someone has sex it means they have no self esteme. BUT - I do think it takes someone with good self esteme to give thought to having sex & the ability to say no.

BTW, I would venture a guess that most teen experiences involve alcohol. I can''t be sure my neices & nephews aren''t going to drink. BUT - I can tell them what to expect w/ inhibitions down. And, ask themselves when in that situation "do I *really* want to do this now?"

 

[ClownFishFunk]

Date: 11/1/2004 5

1:36 PM
Author: Momoftwo

Is Planned Parenthood a for profit business? It's certainly not a nonprofit.

I'm not sure I understand why you keep pointing out that its not a nonprofit business? The people who work at planned parenthood get paid, just like any other doctor gets paid for whatever kind of treatment. Also, planned parenthood is not the only place one can go for an abortion.

Edited to add: It also isn't strictly for abortions, people who decide to go through with the pregnancy can go to planned parenthood as well.

 

[oddporcupine]

Date: 11/1/2004 5

1:36 PM
Author: Momoftwo
I do know two white families that adopted through Fairfax County VA and both adopted black or biracial children.

And, by the way when I say I know someone, it''s because I do. I know who I know.

My point about you knowing people is that you use that as a reference ALL the time. Its getting a bit silly and frankly every time I read one of your posts where you say you know someone to back up your point I find myself laughing. It really is awfully convenient. I must have seen you say something like "I personally know someone who..." or "I know of 2 people who..." at least 20 times. The rest of us dont need to site personal experience every time in order to back up our points because we dont need to.

By the way, I know at least two people who agree with me on this.

 

[fire&ice]

My point about you knowing people is that you use that as a reference ALL the time. Its getting a bit silly and frankly every time I read one of your posts where you say you know someone to back up your point I find myself laughing. It really is awfully convenient.

By the way, I know at least two people who agree with me on this.

Is it because of "their" personal experience that they agree with you. Or, is it really *their* personal experience that you are relaying to us about said experience.

which means they would agree with you and THUS back up your point.

 

[ForteKitty]

Date: 11/1/2004 5

1:36 PM
Author: Momoftwo


I don''t know of an orphanage still in existence in this country.

There is an all girls orphanage about a mile away from the house I grew up in. The girls all went to High School with me so I know they exist!

 

[ClownFishFunk]

Date: 11/1/2004 5

1:36 PM
Author: Momoftwo
I feel sorry for all of you who think babies don''t deserve to live unless the person who is pregnant wants them. That is a a sad commentary on this society.

The question/argument is though, within the first week or so of a pregnancy, the baby is not technically alive. I dont think anyone here is talking about after the first trimester, when it seems pretty clear that a child is functioning. To me, saying that a fetus is "alive" within only a few days after conception and saying that it deserves to live is almost like saying that all persons should have children just so some possible fetus/baby has a chance to live. And what about the adult? Shouldn''t they have a chance/deserve to live their life the way they please? The adult is much more conscious of what is going on than any few-week-old fetus is.

 

[JCJD]

Date: 11/1/2004 5

1:36 PM
Author: Momoftwo

Anything can happen to anyone, but those people have to be responsible for the results. My boys (in college) have both made commitments to stay pure til marriage. If they don''t for whatever reason, I will still love and respect them for their commitments, but they have so far. Not all kids have sex before marriage or use drugs.

And if you had read my previous post in this thread, you would also know that not all kids who don''t have sex before marriage (or use drugs actually) are anti-abortion.

All of your arguments here seem to boil down to two basic ideas - You do not seem to be able to trust people you do not know to make decisions on their own, and you seem to be unable to think in grayscale (instead of in strictly black and white). The human race is full of continuums; skin color, eye color, sexual orientation, political views, religious views, etc. Open your eyes and stretch yourself beyond your perfect world. The world is a messy place that does not fit into a neat little box.

 

[ForteKitty]

Date: 11/1/2004 5

1:36 PM
Author: Momoftwo

My boys (in college) have both made commitments to stay pure til marriage. If they don''t for whatever reason, I will still love and respect them for their commitments, but they have so far. Not all kids have sex before marriage or use drugs.

How can you be so sure? Girls aren''t so innocent anymore. One of my college sorority that gave each other "points" for each boy they de-flowered... it''s scandalous, but true!