Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamond?

[WinkHPD]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

Thanks for the great comments thus far.
The first main event that changed pricing was the FTC:
After the discovery of diamonds in South Africa in 1867 some mines were renowned for producing a percentage of high color diamonds that exhibited a bluish appearance in daylight as a result of their fluorescence. It came to be that these diamonds, especially those that were otherwise colorless, were termed ‘blue white’ and sold at a premium price. However, human nature being what it is, some marketers of diamonds indulged in “bracket creep” and began to call diamonds of lower colors “blue white” in order to achieve a higher selling price and more profit. This led the United States of America Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to ban the use of the term ‘blue white’ on March 18, 1938 with the following resolution 23.14, (Trade Practice Rules for the Wholesale Jewelry Industry, Rule No. 6, p4:

23.14 Misuse of the term “blue white.” ,
It is unfair or deceptive to use the term "blue white" or any representation of similar meaning to describe any diamond that under normal, north daylight or its equivalent shows any color or any trace of any color other than blue or bluish.
Interestingly under this definition there are diamonds that could still be legally described as blue white, however it seems that the intention of the legislation has been observed, and, if anything, there has been an over-reaction. The FTC also made an attempt to define the type of lighting that might cause a diamond to fluoresce and appear ‘blue or bluish’. The detail however did not include terms such as ‘shaded’ or ‘indirect sunlight’ or make any reference to the time of day or atmospheric conditions. The quality of published industry and gemological opinion about the type of natural light that diamond color ought to be judged or graded in, is poor and often contradictory, as can be noted in the following quotes.

THE NEXT BIG EVENT in my opinion, was in 1993 - and that seems to be when Rapaport began pricing fluoro:

‘KoreaGate’ In an interesting case study, prior to 1993, Korean retailers and consumers exhibited a preference and paid a premium for blue fluorescent diamonds. However a Korean current affairs TV program in 1993 accused local Korean grading laboratories of over-grading the color of fluorescent diamonds, suggesting for instance that “your G is really H”. Korean traders replaced many of the fluorescent diamonds they had sold earlier, becoming net sellers of fluorescent goods and buyers of non-fluorescent diamonds. This simultaneous dumping and demand of the different grades of goods seemingly contributed to an adjustment in the Rapaport Diamond Report price guide. A month or two later a chart appeared with price guides for blue fluorescent diamonds of different colors and clarities. This guide is still in place today, having had only some minor adjustments from time to time which presumably only reflect fluctuations in supply and demand.

So the pricing changed to be favorable for us fluoro lovers.
Of course I am not advocating that we lovers of it should pay more - its our little secret and we are, in my view, very lucky!

Garry,

I have very strong memories of fluorescence becoming a negative during the last year or two of the seventies, during the investment craze that ended suddenly in February of 1980 with the crash of silver, gold and diamond prices after the Feds increased the margin on silver contracts to 100% in order to stop the Hunt brothers from cornering the silver market.

In 1975 when I was studying at GIA I paid a premium for diamonds with fluorescence. by 1978 that was no longer true. I have no memory of when RAP started pricing fluorescence, but if it was not until 1993, then it was well after the price had changed.

That is what my foggy old memory banks are telling me and I will remember it always this way. Which is not to say I am not wrong, it is just how I remember what was a tumultuous time in the diamond markets.

Wink

 

[Laila619]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

No, I wouldn't pay more.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

Thanks for the great comments thus far.
The first main event that changed pricing was the FTC:
After the discovery of diamonds in South Africa in 1867 some mines were renowned for producing a percentage of high color diamonds that exhibited a bluish appearance in daylight as a result of their fluorescence. It came to be that these diamonds, especially those that were otherwise colorless, were termed ‘blue white’ and sold at a premium price. However, human nature being what it is, some marketers of diamonds indulged in “bracket creep” and began to call diamonds of lower colors “blue white” in order to achieve a higher selling price and more profit. This led the United States of America Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to ban the use of the term ‘blue white’ on March 18, 1938 with the following resolution 23.14, (Trade Practice Rules for the Wholesale Jewelry Industry, Rule No. 6, p4:

23.14 Misuse of the term “blue white.” ,
It is unfair or deceptive to use the term "blue white" or any representation of similar meaning to describe any diamond that under normal, north daylight or its equivalent shows any color or any trace of any color other than blue or bluish.
Interestingly under this definition there are diamonds that could still be legally described as blue white, however it seems that the intention of the legislation has been observed, and, if anything, there has been an over-reaction. The FTC also made an attempt to define the type of lighting that might cause a diamond to fluoresce and appear ‘blue or bluish’. The detail however did not include terms such as ‘shaded’ or ‘indirect sunlight’ or make any reference to the time of day or atmospheric conditions. The quality of published industry and gemological opinion about the type of natural light that diamond color ought to be judged or graded in, is poor and often contradictory, as can be noted in the following quotes.

THE NEXT BIG EVENT in my opinion, was in 1993 - and that seems to be when Rapaport began pricing fluoro:

‘KoreaGate’ In an interesting case study, prior to 1993, Korean retailers and consumers exhibited a preference and paid a premium for blue fluorescent diamonds. However a Korean current affairs TV program in 1993 accused local Korean grading laboratories of over-grading the color of fluorescent diamonds, suggesting for instance that “your G is really H”. Korean traders replaced many of the fluorescent diamonds they had sold earlier, becoming net sellers of fluorescent goods and buyers of non-fluorescent diamonds. This simultaneous dumping and demand of the different grades of goods seemingly contributed to an adjustment in the Rapaport Diamond Report price guide. A month or two later a chart appeared with price guides for blue fluorescent diamonds of different colors and clarities. This guide is still in place today, having had only some minor adjustments from time to time which presumably only reflect fluctuations in supply and demand.

So the pricing changed to be favorable for us fluoro lovers.
Of course I am not advocating that we lovers of it should pay more - its our little secret and we are, in my view, very lucky!

Garry,

I have very strong memories of fluorescence becoming a negative during the last year or two of the seventies, during the investment craze that ended suddenly in February of 1980 with the crash of silver, gold and diamond prices after the Feds increased the margin on silver contracts to 100% in order to stop the Hunt brothers from cornering the silver market.

In 1975 when I was studying at GIA I paid a premium for diamonds with fluorescence. by 1978 that was no longer true. I have no memory of when RAP started pricing fluorescence, but if it was not until 1993, then it was well after the price had changed.

That is what my foggy old memory banks are telling me and I will remember it always this way. Which is not to say I am not wrong, it is just how I remember what was a tumultuous time in the diamond markets.

Wink

Hi Wink, good point, and the cert flipping from the commodities rush late 1970's and early 1980's is still an understandable thing.
But in fairness in those days I am sure you would agree that only large high color and clarity stones were being graded at GIA. As such it makes sense that buyers want to be able to sell from the paper alone, and this is still a fact in D-E F,IF and VVS.
It is especially true and valid for those gov't and high officials who buy gold, US$ and other easily and quickly sold investments with funny under the table money. They may need to use those assets to escape one day.

But here on Pricescope most people are buying just eye clean top cut nice color diamonds.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

Fluoro does not factor into my diamond buying at all.

It is like dating a man with a nice car -- hey, I'm not going to reject him for it, but I would not choose to marry him based on that either!

Same with fluor. For me, other factors are much more important.

 

[FancyIntense]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

This is a great question I'm currently making a decision on two stones one strong blue and one faint. There is $1,000 difference and I can't make up my mind. I can't say I would want to pay more for it at this time.

 

[GreenBling]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

I WANT medium to strong fluor in H/I/J stones. Would not mind faint to medium in G. Do not need any in D/E/F. So would I pay more? I might for H/I/J stones.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

I WANT medium to strong fluor in H/I/J stones. Would not mind faint to medium in G. Do not need any in D/E/F. So would I pay more? I might for H/I/J stones.

Historically (or maybe hysterically?) DEF received the premium.

The misuse of the term blue white was for lower yellowish colored diamonds that did not appear blueish icy white.

I know what they mean because these are the stones I prefer, while still getting the bigger color advantage of the lower color improvements.

 

[treasurehunter]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

Gary are people in australia usually for or against florescence , I noticed some of the big retailers here don't have anything above faint.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

There's very little I would pay more for. Fluor. is not one of them.

 

[diagem]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

If I may add a view...
I assume most of you discuss this issue in regards to (mostly) rounds.
In my years of cutting mostly fancy shapes, I believe fluorescence has different visual effects on different facet designs and shapes.
Now more than ever with our ability to control light return, we definitely see visual advantages on certain light return patterns.

IMO, non-harming visual fluorescence (the great majority) will mostly add something to the appearance..., its subjective but is a phenomena as well.

 

[John P]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

...I believe fluorescence has different visual effects on different facet designs and shapes...

I think you're 100% right DG.

RE pay more or not: It's all about personal preference (first) and the actual diamond (second). It's like oysters. Some people love them, some hate them. The haters will avoid them. The lovers have personal prefs and may pay more for something they really like. Then you have people who don't seek oysters but don't mind them either... If I was a waiter I would try to objectively describe, and let the customer choose the path.

Personally, I love the topic.

One of my first diamonds was D VS with MBF. Super-duper-ideal of course. I remember clearly how it looked under indoor lights, versus outdoors on a sunny day, versus lights in the dance club (I was younger). Indoors it was the firecracker you expected. On a sunny day outside you could get just a hint of cold blue ice in the sunlight sparkle. It was extremely understated and not seen unless pointed out - like smelling the faintest trace of mint in the air. Loved that diamond.

I first learned to appreciate yellow fluor in a fancy shape: One of the most vivid FVY heart shapes I ever saw had medium yellow. I know it was only medium, but in my observation it really helped that stone sing. Of course, it's the kiss of death in D-K.

Any gemologist who has enough diamonds from the far corners of the earth cross his/her desk will have encountered diamonds with unreported 'haze' - which can occur with or without the presence of Fl but is possibly more visible when coupled with Fl and UV in the lighting. I've also seen a couple of those infamous over-blues, although, as some experienced appraisers have noted to me, they are pretty infrequent. The first one I saw was kept, in fact, by a shop owner who searched mightily in estate jewelry sales for years to find one.

And then there was this lovely pictured below: My all-time favorite VSBF. I'd love to have it, just as a collectible. It's one of those where the VSB reaches a level where the whole diamond takes on a notably different appearance in sunlight.



If I owned that I think I'd dress up like a superhero, put in a pendant and attend some comic-con blacklight disco event. Actually, those may not exist, but it sounds fun to me.

More about it in this thread, for fellow superhero wannabes.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/photo-very-strong-blue-fluorescence.183070/

 

[Todd Gray]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

Practically every diamond which I have selected for myself, has exhibited medium to strong blue fluorescence, and the 2.25 carat, I-color, which was set in my wedding ring had very strong blue, and I loved it. In most cases, I find fluorescence to be more of an identifying characteristic, which most people would be unlikely to pick up unless it was brought to their attention.

Case in point... many years ago, I was taking a tour of the Toronto Needle and there is a section which is illuminated by black light, several women in the group started to flip out when their diamonds began to glow white and blue as a result of the fluorescence, there was some concern expressed about whether their diamonds were real, etc., so I ended up holding an impromptu lesson on diamond fluorescence, using my own diamond as an example of very strong blue, and then everybody calmed down and several people thought it was all pretty cool. But none of these women had ever noticed the effect of fluorescence upon their diamond prior to that point, and several of the diamonds were definitely in the range of strong to very strong blue.

If somebody likes the idea of a blue fluorescent diamond, then they should consider one, and if they don't like the idea, then they should buy one which is negligible / faint, personal preference and all that. Great topic Garry.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

Gary are people in australia usually for or against florescence , I noticed some of the big retailers here don't have anything above faint.

Hi TH, I don't think Oz is any different than USA on Fluoro.
Apart from maybe about 100 valuers and gemmo's who have attended a diamond day that I have run in most states, with 2 hrs on fluoro, i think there is not a lot of B&M awareness.
However a lot of brownish lower grade diamonds are sold in Maul stores and most originated from Argyle - and argyle diamonds are pretty well all blue fluoro - so they actually look great in our more out door lifestyles than many other countries.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

If I may add a view...
I assume most of you discuss this issue in regards to (mostly) rounds.
In my years of cutting mostly fancy shapes, I believe fluorescence has different visual effects on different facet designs and shapes.
Now more than ever with our ability to control light return, we definitely see visual advantages on certain light return patterns.

IMO, non-harming visual fluorescence (the great majority) will mostly add something to the appearance..., its subjective but is a phenomena as well.

You raise an interesting point DG.
A well cut round has about 2.5 times the diameter as an average ray path. A crushed ice fancy shape like those used to enhance fancy colored diamonds can be 3 times that (which is how light yellow rough gets made into fancy yellow polished, and you, DG call it cheating ).

So it is likely that many more fancy shapes could become hazy / milky.

But ponder this in the case of fancy colored diamonds - some of the most desirable colored gems are hazy - the classic e.g. is Kashmir sapphire - where tiny inclusions thru the stone can cause a hazy affect that results in less dark zones caused by extinction (as discovered by Beryl in the 1970's). This causes those stones to exhibit blue on blue rather than blue on very dark blue or black.

RockDiamond mentioned a case where a blue fluoro yellow diamond sung to him (and his client). I wonder if it is a possible factor?

 

[diagem]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

If I may add a view...
I assume most of you discuss this issue in regards to (mostly) rounds.
In my years of cutting mostly fancy shapes, I believe fluorescence has different visual effects on different facet designs and shapes.
Now more than ever with our ability to control light return, we definitely see visual advantages on certain light return patterns.

IMO, non-harming visual fluorescence (the great majority) will mostly add something to the appearance..., its subjective but is a phenomena as well.

You raise an interesting point DG.
A well cut round has about 2.5 times the diameter as an average ray path. A crushed ice fancy shape like those used to enhance fancy colored diamonds can be 3 times that (which is how light yellow rough gets made into fancy yellow polished, and you, DG call it cheating ).

So it is likely that many more fancy shapes could become hazy / milky.

But ponder this in the case of fancy colored diamonds - some of the most desirable colored gems are hazy - the classic e.g. is Kashmir sapphire - where tiny inclusions thru the stone can cause a hazy affect that results in less dark zones caused by extinction (as discovered by Beryl in the 1970's). This causes those stones to exhibit blue on blue rather than blue on very dark blue or black.

RockDiamond mentioned a case where a blue fluoro yellow diamond sung to him (and his client). I wonder if it is a possible factor?

Hi Garry,
In Sapphires I think you mean silk(y) instead of hazy/milky perhaps? I personaly don't think it's the same effect.
In "cut to enhance color" fancy colors it would greatly depend on the LR intensity (e.g. ASET red vs ASET green).
An effective VSB appearance in a "crushed ice" type appearance would probabely look quite different to the eye than on a "chunky" type appearance if the latter return its light mostly in the ASET red zone. Also, a correct balance of contrast (blue in ASET) will IMO add an interesting patern which could entice VSB appearances. Facet size which reflect direct light return in VSB Diamonds can appear differently as well. As example, if you take Ideal RB & an Idealy qualified OEC out in direct sunlight, IMO the OEC will handle the overly-quantified sunlight better?

Now, as far as cheating goes..., I miss those round Cape Diamonds we once could enjoy freely..., instead, we have today an overly abundant jungle of "fancy" yellow radiants & cushions which needs Gold's help in order to display their yellowish face-up appearances.
Call it as you wish.

Just yesterday I was trying to purchase a beautiful large old FIY OEC but a cutter offered significantly above me as he smelled an FVY Radiant or Cushion ;-(

 

[elle_chris]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

No, I'd pay less. In fact I did for my 2.52 G VS2 because it has medium fluoro.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

Fascinating discussion, particularly the comments pertaining to variable effects by different facet patterns and proportions. It is also interesting that a significant number in the poll are prepared to pay a premium for fluor which is generally at odds with the current broader market.

My personal opinion is more along the lines of what Karl laid out- a more strategic approach. It is one factor in many that go into decision making and how it combines with other attributes is important and variable.

Having been in the business through a few cycles I see fluor as somewhat trendy. I remember in the 1980s when fluro was the rage in Taiwan. The wealthy industrialists liked to hang out in nightclubs with blacklights and the bigger and glowier your diamond was the better! And they were consequently willing to pay a premium for them which in turn impacted the market.

I agree with John and others that people should feel free to buy what appeals to them and brings them enjoyment. I love oysters, but eat them rarely because of possible health risks. That analogy is somewhat applicable to considering the negative implications that fluor might have for future value. Many people look at their diamond purchase partly through the lens of stored value. If something is trendy, it will impact the way many people assess what they like or don’t like. I suspect that there were more than a few Taiwanese that were unhappy with offers they received on their diamonds in later years!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

No, I'd pay less. In fact I did for my 2.52 G VS2 because it has medium fluoro.

Hi Elle Chris, and others that answered in this manner :-

I guess everyone would pay less if they can. And you can, so of course you would and did.
The question in its context is that if fluoro diamonds actually cost more, as they once did, would you be prepared to stump up the extra dollars because you see it as a value added feature?

It costs less now, but if everyone knew what the insides here do, I suspect that the type of diamond you bought - in a very sweet great value spot, with no real apparent color or eye visibility issues - just maybe us Fluoro lovers might have to pay more.

 

[Rhino]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

No, I'd pay less. In fact I did for my 2.52 G VS2 because it has medium fluoro.

Hi Elle Chris, and others that answered in this manner :-

I guess everyone would pay less if they can. And you can, so of course you would and did.
The question in its context is that if fluoro diamonds actually cost more, as they once did, would you be prepared to stump up the extra dollars because you see it as a value added feature?

It costs less now, but if everyone knew what the insides here do, I suspect that the type of diamond you bought - in a very sweet great value spot, with no real apparent color or eye visibility issues - just maybe us Fluoro lovers might have to pay more.

Good points but you know what ... considering Rap and all Garry ... there are premiums that are charged already in certain colors so in answer ... we already do pay more depending on the color.

I regularly buy fluoro diamonds and even very strong as long as there is no negative impact.

Another interesting thing, albeit it is generally already in effect ... premiums are already paid, across the spectrum for certain types of GIA Ex's over others. To most consumers a GIA Ex is a GIA Ex but those who participate on these boards know otherwise AND DO in fact pay the premiums AS DO the vendors.

The difference is knowing why, educating the consumer and demonstrates the value of PS.

 

[treasurehunter]

Re: Would you pay more for a med or strong blue fluoro diamo

People pay extra for rubies and emeralds with flor so why not diamonds thats my opinion.