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yesterday a jeweler told me that james allen was NOT a designer just a retail website

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garek007

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
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Hi,

I have been torn about letting Union Diamond set my stone for me, or taking it to a local jeweler.

To try to explain what I want I sent him some images and a link to this website
http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/settings-with-sidestones/ring/item_58-777.asp

The image I sent him was a Danhov ring and he offered to make it, instead of use the actual Danhov ring because the Danhov shows a larger stone and he said that for my 1 carat, it would not look right. I have attached the photo (it''s the one on the left). He would charge me around 3-3.5K to make this custom because he said it would take a lot of time. Fair enough, makes sense. (does that seem like a fair price?)

On the James Allen rings, he again offered to make those for me, and when I asked if we could order an ''actual'' James Allen setting he said that no they can''t because the site I referred him to (above) was just a store, and that the James Allen rings were just cast settings, not designer settings.

Is this true? Is this guy shady? to me it looks like he''s a designer. your thoughts?

2+4hhh.jpg
 
JA is a retail store is correct the rest isn't totally right, most designer rings are just cast rings these days.
He is being less than up front because any ring he makes will be just a cast ring most likely.

http://www.danhov.com/
 
what is a ''cast ring'' and what is wrong with that?

If James Allen is a retail store not a designer, why is their name inscribed on the ring?

Danhov is a designer yes? or at least a brand name?
 
nothing much wrong with a cast ring, it is the cheapest way to make a custom setting.
Done right they are good enough for a lifetime of wear but not as strong as some other methods.

Casting a ring involves making a wax which is then used to make a mold in which melted metal is forced into it forming the ring.
Done wrong there are a lot of problems, done right they are acceptable.
 
Date: 2/20/2010 12:57:06 PM
Author: garek007
If James Allen is a retail store not a designer, why is their name inscribed on the ring?


Danhov is a designer yes? or at least a brand name?
Click to expand...
They are custom made for JA, I believe a lot of them are made at the time of order to fit the diamond and ring size rather than being stock pieces.
Therefor their name is on them.

The link above tells you all about DanHov.
 
I see, so Danhov is more like a retail store too...

If cast isn''t the only method, what other method is there?

Pretty much most brand name or designer rings (like Scott Kay) are going to be cast right?
 
Depends on the settings and jewelers. Some will be stamped, these are the hardest settings usually for simple settings and bands, some hand wrought, even milled.

No, Danhov is a designer.
 
There is no clear cut definition of a designer versus a jeweler. A retail jeweler can choose to call his brand a "designer" brand and get certain models made, hire workmen who keep to a certain level of workmanship, make things to order which fit better than stock items, etc, etc. Manufacturers will inscribe a brand name rather than their own trademark in items if that is what the seller wants. Many retailers have registered trademarks and can legally have their mark placed on items by whoever makes it for them. There are really few true artisan "designers" making engagement rings. For all the customization and extra care in fitting stones, the base designs are mostly very much stock models whether cast, die struck or partially manufactured and partially hand formed. When I think of "designers" i think of the clothing couture designers who have to make new lines once or twice a year with totally new ideas and looks. We just don''t see much of this sort of artistry with traditional jewelry such as engagement rings.

Rather than worry about a designer name, it is best to think about the fit and finish level of the item. There are many capable jewelers who never push themselves out as "designers", but who produce very much the same, sometimes even better, quality items. Usually designers want to establish their BRAND and to charge a premium for it. That''s fine since most artists never make a living, but not every designer has a real premium product or a truly unique take on design and execution. We have many names floated around in Pricescope and some do truly excellent work. Some are very good, but not extraordinary.

A firm that holds itself out as a designer may not really be more than a good jeweler. What you decide to pay, and who you decide to buy from says a lot more about the level of satisfaction in the product than the name inside it ost of the time.
 
Sounds like this guy is just trying to get you to go with him. I would proceed with caution!

About how much is the designer ring you are looking at?
 
I don''t quite understand the whole issue. If you like and want a setting that is available on the James Allen website, you can send them your diamond and they will set it into the setting you want. There would be no point, and probably some difficulty, in ordering a setting from James Allen and taking to to a local jeweler to have it set. Of course he''s going to want to make a "custom" setting and charge you lots of money for it.

The whole designer vs. jeweler thing is a non-issue for me. I don''t care about a brand name/designer. I just want something beautiful. So I say if you want something James Allen has, save yourself some money by sending them your diamond and having them set it. I''m sure it will be beautiful.

And James Allen doesn''t actually stamp their name on the inside of their rings. That only appears in the pictures as a sort of watermark to claim the images as their own. I have a James Allen ring and the name isn''t stamped in it.
 
Slangofoil,

The issue is that I want to have it set locally so that she has a jeweler she can come to when she needs it cleaned, etc. Plus, I need to be able to see and hold the setting. The stone for the most part ( I don''t care what anybody says) can be purchased based on numbers, dimensions, girdle thickness, etc. For me, I need to see the setting to really pick a good quality one out.

This guy has stated that his prices are competitive. He told me that to replicate the danhov ring it would be between 3000 - 3500 dollars, which seems about right based on stuff I''ve seen online.

I plan to make a visit this Wednesday and if he seems too high I will leave and never look back. But I''m willing to pay a little more to have it set locally so that I can see and hold the setting in my hands.

But it''s helpful what you say about the stamp. I understand now that they are just stamping their company name on a 3D mockup of basic cast rings.

tyty, the danhov ring he quoted as being around 3500 or he could make one for around 3000 - 3500 k

old miner, that is a VERY descriptive answer and very helpful. thank you so much!

danhovddddddd.jpg
 
Date: 2/20/2010 12:40:16 PM
Author:garek007
On the James Allen rings, he again offered to make those for me, and when I asked if we could order an ''actual'' James Allen setting he said that no they can''t because the site I referred him to (above) was just a store, and that the James Allen rings were just cast settings, not designer settings.
Click to expand...

Oh boy, this is rich! So if the setting you like "is just a cast setting" and not exclusive to James Allen (or any other vendor for that matter) then the jeweler should have access to it... But is he / she stating that "designers" don''t cast their settings? If so, then where do these magical settings come from? Uh, they are either cast or die struck - with very rare exception, they might be kiln "cast" from wax which is embedded with gold / platinum and then melted away (very rare indeed and very costly).

Anybody who designs jewelry on a regular basis can be "a jewelry designer" and any vendor here on PS is certainly well known enough to have developed a following of people who likes the look, feel and quality of their jewelry. But perhaps this retail jeweler only considers "designers" to be people who spend a lot of money advertising their designs in popular bridal magazines (which adds a ton of $$$ to the purchase price paid by both the jeweler and the customer)...

Let''s see... I''m trained in Computer Aided Design (CAD) for jewelry, paid a small fortune for the software and the training, have a state-of-the-art milling machine that carves the wax models with incredible precision, but in the end, we cast our rings... Oh no, I must not be a jewelry designer either! Oh the shame
2.gif


My advice... Run. If JA has the ring which you like, why not buy it? And if you want a custom ring made, there are plenty of excellent, uh, "jewelry designers" here on PS who are capable of making a custom ring for you... Note that most will not knock off the work of another designer, not only is it unethical, but it can also be quite costly in terms of civil liablity.
 
What about a designer like Leon Mege? He uses the word handmade, does he cast his pieces?
 
a lot of this is over my head. I don''t think the guy meant to be deceitful necessarily. I do think to some degree he''s saying anything to get my business, without really explaining how it works. Which I don''t like. To me, a good salesman doesn''t need to deceive, to me a good salesman will tell you the ins and outs of a product, how it works, how the business works, etc, and because he was so honest, you will still buy from him.

I''m still going to check him out on Wednesday. If I get a bad vibe I won''t go back. I just want to get an idea of how this stuff works so that I know if he''s feeding me bs. Like I said, it does seem that he is playing the typical salesman where he just tells me whatever to get me in there. I won''t know for sure until I go down and see for myself.
 
Wow some great wisdom in posts here!

Just another little thought.

Designers that do many hundreds of an article like Tiffany, Bulgari, Cartier and many others - they cast because they can not afford variability.
Of course they can die strike too - which is arguably resulting in a more compressed less aerated metal - but a lot of the old time jewelers say casting is bad because they used backyard outdated techniques.
 
Date: 2/20/2010 11:37:32 PM
Author: Lestat
What about a designer like Leon Mege? He uses the word handmade, does he cast his pieces?
Click to expand...
I don''t think so. I think that''s the difference between handmade and cast, but I''m not 100% sure.
 
Date: 2/22/2010 3:40:17 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Wow some great wisdom in posts here!


Just another little thought.


Designers that do many hundreds of an article like Tiffany, Bulgari, Cartier and many others - they cast because they can not afford variability.
Click to expand...

this - exactly, Tiffany cast their rings at least 70 / 80% of the time I would "guesstimate."

There are few jewellers out there who can claim to completely hand make their designs from start to finish, most of which will be more expensive than cast and many of which can be many thousands more than cast.

But I have no issue at all with jewellers who creatively use CAD to provide beautifully cast pieces at affordable prices. Many vendors we are familiar with do fantastic work with CAD/wax that often comes very close to appearing as hand made.
As strm said, like anything else when done well they are perfectly acceptable as high quality settings.
But it''s also possible to do a crappy cast, and end up with issues like porosity, weakness in the metal, poor design, etc..


Sorry garek007, I feel your guy is walking the line of telling porkies - some typical B&M spin if you will.

May I ask why not just go with JA / Danhov? Is it a costing issue only? After all, you always get what you pay for...
 
it''s not a cost issue because this guy will charge me comparably. He''s got a pretty good rep I hear he does beautiful work.

Mainly I don''t want to go with James Allen because I want my GF to be able to come to a store and get her maintenance on her jewelry. Plus, I''m not sure the JA/Danhov rings fit 100% and going to a local jeweler I''ll be able to slightly modify the settings.

Is there a third option I''m not seeing?
 
I’m a big fan of supporting your neighbors and if they’ve got what you want, by all means you should consider shopping in their stores, especially if the prices and products are comparable. I'm even ok to pay extra although there are obviously some limits to consider. That being said, any local jeweler with sense will be happy to provide you with maintenance support regardless of where you bought your piece. This would include tightening, tipping, polishing, sizing etc. The only real issue on this is with warranty support (meaning repair or replacement of defective items where your complaint is with the manufacturer) and whether the maintenance fees are included in the original purchase price or will be charged ala carte as needed. If what’s attracting you is the maintenance contract, make sure to read the fine print, rather like with all maintenance contracts. There may or may not be zingers in there but it’s not unusual to have terms and conditions that effectively neuter the added value.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
I guess, I''m thinking maintenance will be free, but maybe not considering I didn''t purchase the stone from him. You''re saying even if I buy online I could still pay him a fee to maintain the ring?
 
Local jewelers should always be willing to maintain a ring-most of the time for free otherwise for a small price whether they made it or not.

What if you guys move in a year? Then you will no longer be near the "local" guy anyway. Something to think about.

I don't like being deceived. Period. If someone deceives me I am out the door. That said, I will pay a bit more to shop locally if the product is comparable and the service excellent. But people lose my business if they use shady practices to try and get that business.

Make sure you see some of his pieces VERY SIMILAR to what you are having made, in person with your own eyes. Most jewelers can not do the kind of fine detail work that is needed for those rings.
 
thanks for the tip neatfreak. He did a friends ring. I''m a bit hesitant. do you guys think he shady? should I just go with James Allen?

what is the incentive for a local jeweler to maintain a ring for free?
 
A probable customer for anniversary rings, earrings, pendants, bracelets, etc.
Any time you get someone inside a store you hae an opportunity for a sale.
 
I agree with Denver in supporting locals, when you can. But I do so only when I trust them. My reward in great service and product is continued faithful support. I really hope you can find that in your jeweler.

If it were me being sold on a custom contract...I would rather have heard him express HIS quality with details and techniques that set him apart. Again anyone focusing on anything else raises flags for me. When I do business with someone...I want him to sell ME on HIM. Not spend the time focusing on another.

I too am just like you. I want to see it, taste it (lick it if I desire), smell it. I went into my locals. I was ready to feel and taste what they handed me...and found that yes they were all talk about doing this or that...but when I asked for an example of their current work...they had NARY a photo to show me. Just hunter green dull waxes...where is the proof it was made?

I also noticed what was showcased prominently in the case were these old fashioned custom works that had the 80''s Miami vice/dynasty look all over them. Chunky...simple...nothing lick worthy! And they were most proud of this or that INNOVATIVE design. Innovative for what decade? I knew if they were showcasing old style as their pride, it would be a hard sell explaining delicate features and MODERN day design. I had this vision of when I was handed the finished product and ME just going blank...why why why did I believe this was going to be anything different. Why Why WHY!!! So I touched, licked or held nothing...local.

Here''s an view you may not know: The maintenance service thing is not what you should make your decision on. All jewelers inspect and clean all sorts of jewelry bought at other places...and from other decades...even centuries! They want you in the store to continue buying and will accommodate your needs. (other wise no one would ever accept a job transfer because they are married to their local jeweler...). And really...when a ring is done right...a peek at the prongs under magnification is all the maintenance really is. Unless your intended is a brick layer and wears the prongs down...there will be no "maintenance". As for cleaning...trust me she is going to do that daily herself...we love to pamper our new baubles!

OK, so you are set on returning. I ask that you walk in and destine yourself to be a trained observer. Allow this craftsman to SELL you on everything. Make certain that you are comfortable on every aspect. $3000 is YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY. Make him earn your trust. You have any doubts you have not addressed, don''t go with this guy. And hey here''s a thought; Ask for references. Three of his last most recent invoiced custom works...and perhaps one that is most similar to your style. If you notice Hesitation to ablige...well your call.

Will this be his first to make similar to your inspiration? Danhov has been made for years...yours won''t be the first attempt to get it right, just another thought.

Reputation, integrity, character...shouldn''t be hidden from a prospective client. It should be offered freely. I hope this guy convinces you we are all wrong. But he better jump through hoops...because we know James Allen and the other PS vendors...they have set the bar high!

35.gif


summarize: A local touch, hold, pre-lick experience versus a time delayed guaranteed Drool worthy authentic Danhov experience? Tough decision. and they both involve spit. ha ha.
 
Personally, I would just go with James Allen. Look into their warranty and be sure to get insurance. After that you can just get prongs checked and cleaned as needed by someone locally. When the jeweler told you that the danhov setting is for a larger stone and wouldn''t work for your smaller stone, that is BS. JA is going to get you the Danhov setting in an appropriate size for your stone. You aren''t going to end up with the same size setting as a 3 carat center stone. You will get the one proportionate for your sized stone.
 
Date: 2/22/2010 10:54:10 AM
Author: garek007
What is the incentive for a local jeweler to maintain a ring for free?
Click to expand...
Who said anything about ‘free’? A typical sizing job ranges form $20 - $100. It’s unlikely you’ll need it more than once or twice in the entire life of the piece so it’s just not that big a deal given the budgets being discussed. The first one is generally free no matter where you shop but you may end up with some shipping and/or the need to visit the store a few times since they can't usually do it while you wait. Which of these is more inconvenient is up to you. Jewelers are usually happy to clean and check things for free because it encourages you to visit their store and gives them the opportunity to sell you new things while you wait. If they discover a needed repair, it puts them in the first position to bid on fixing it but I would not expect repairs to be done for free unless they sold it and it's covered under their warranty (which is a disincentive for them to do a thorough inspection on these items by the way). Whether or not you decide to go with them for a particular repair will be an evaluation of the skills of their repair staff, their prices and other concerns, an opportunity you don't have if you get a prepaid deal.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Most jewelers here in my local area offer free ring inspections and cleaning... A few charge something like $5 for polishing and all of them charge a fee for tightening stones, sizing, etc.

We''ve always offered free inspection, cleaning and polishing because it is a good way to meet potential new clients and allow them to become familiar with our operation. Some jewelers get kind of uppity about servicing jewelry which they did not sell originally, but I think they tend to be jewelers who people shouldn''t do business with to begin with - because they apparently are only interested in ''what money'' their clients might be worth to them and not interested in building a relationship which is mutually beneficial.

RE: CAD - I think that CAD offers more precision than what can be achieved with ''hand made'' rings because the wax model will be symmetrical on all sides, stones can be set precisely and evenly... There is not the variation in width, depth, etc. which comes from hand work. But my favorite thing about it is that when a client slips the wax ring on their finger to see what it looks like and they break the wax, carving it over again is as simple as putting another block of wax in the milling machine and setting the file to run again (this is also helpful for theft and loss). And while the model might not have been ''hand made'' everything else about the ring is completed the old fashioned way...

Porosity in casting is a result of impure conditions and/or poor metal quality, etc. so it can be minimized / avoided...

Funny thing about most of the ''hand engraving'' advertised by a lot of the designer lines... It''s initially rendered into a design which was generated in a CAD model and then etched over ''by hand'' during the finish process of the jewelry item... I think ''hand made'' is a term which (not surprisingly) is loosely interpreted by our industry
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I am not set on this guy. and if you all think he is shady, maybe I should avoid him. I haven''t visited yet. One thing that is odd to me is this: No jewelers have called me back. I have to keep calling him, I went into Robbins Bros a few weeks ago and they never called me. I went into another jeweler and he seemed less than interested in my business, did not even ask for a phone number.

maybe they are trying to be ''no pressure'', but it also feels like they don''t care.

James Allen does not seem to have the particular Danhov ring that I like, otherwise I might order from them. Who else sells danhov?
 
Danhov has a dealer locater on their website. They have lots to choose from. www.danhov.com

JA (and any other authorized dealer) can probably order in anything that Danhov currently makes, even if the webstaff doesn’t feature it on the site. Call and ask if you're interested in something you know that one of their designers makes but that's not listed on the website. It may be just a matter of keeping the website current.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
james allen can get you any Danhov ring because they are authorized retailers. many designers have hundreds of styles and there is no way a jeweler can stock them all. you just need to let JA know which Danhov ring you want. If there is a designer ring out there that you like and it fits into your budget I''d go with that over the custom situation you''re describing any day.
lots of us here bought our rings in different states than where we live and it''s easy to find a local mom and pop jeweler to service the ring if necessary.
 
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