movie zombie
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Yesterday I learned that a lot of HIV cases were spread at diamond mines in S.Africa
- Thread starter innerkitten
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MINE!!
Ideal_Rock
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A great number of HIV is passed on in African communities due to infidelity/adultery and the lack of the use of condoms due to how they are viewed. They do not use them. The men get around quite a bit and bring the disease back home to their wives and onto their chlildren, etc. It''s all cultural. Until that changes, the numbers will increase. What''s interesting, but not entirely uncommon is women who commit adultery are treated terribly, but the men are expected to. The real issue is behavior, not drug availability.
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Mine!! that al sounds so very very sad. It is hard to imagine that these problems can be solved for generations.
But on the bright side - there are many moves afoot within the diamond industry to cut and polish diamonds in their countries of origin - with local labour.
Without mines htere will be no diamonds to be polished - so development will need to be accomplished 1 step at a time.
There are heaps of articles at www.diamonds.net in the news section.
But on the bright side - there are many moves afoot within the diamond industry to cut and polish diamonds in their countries of origin - with local labour.
Without mines htere will be no diamonds to be polished - so development will need to be accomplished 1 step at a time.
There are heaps of articles at www.diamonds.net in the news section.
MINE!!
Ideal_Rock
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Oh yes, I definetl agree with you Garry. We need to keep businesses in Africa... yet also teach and support Africa in how to do these things themselves. They are rich with raw material... Did you know that the main source of rubber comes from Africa. Yet in the very same countries that produce it, they are too poor to have tires made for cars, or they recycle left over rubber (which is a small amount) to make the bottom of their shoes.
The world does need to take action and some would argue that it is the resposibility of the world to do so since some blame the slow evolution of economics and structural and business maturity on Colonization and fore-runners of the diamond and gold communities such as DeBeer and Cecil Rhodes.
But to pull out these businnesses NOW.... that would definetly only inclrease the poverty and problems of Africa...
The world does need to take action and some would argue that it is the resposibility of the world to do so since some blame the slow evolution of economics and structural and business maturity on Colonization and fore-runners of the diamond and gold communities such as DeBeer and Cecil Rhodes.
But to pull out these businnesses NOW.... that would definetly only inclrease the poverty and problems of Africa...
MINE!!
Ideal_Rock
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sorry to keep this going for so long, but I really feel like I need to reply to Ideal Rock and his vision of mining companies responsibilities towards their workers.
Some businesses located in remote areas of various counties (including the US) also provide as an added benifit free housing, medical benifits, and even food, as part of the job benifits. While none of these types of jobs are the nicest (oil industry, mining, shipping, remote construction) they are typically highly sought after because of their relative high pay and benifits. Often, a person only working part of the year can support their entire family elsewhere for the entire year.
The African diamond mines are no different.
While the parallel may be correct in theory, the idea of comparing businesses in the US, or anywhere in the west, and businesses in most of Africa is absurd. With unemployment in many places in South Africa as high as 50% there is simply not the choice of employment to chose from. This breeds conditions for exploitation. Fortunately, many corperations do not share your simplistic capitalistic view of the world, and are starting to pay attention to this, which has been mentioned above.
While many of your other comments speak to a conservatively warped perception of Africa in general, I should comment on this one:
Would the next person who wants to claim that these workers and the countries are really being exploited and that somehow the companies are responsible for personal behavior please explain to me the effects on the people and the countries of not starting these industrial venturs and not providing these job opportuinities.
There is no way to know where many African countries would be without multinational corperations providing their "expertise". Indeed, there is no way to know what would have happened had American and European multi-nationals not bled the heart of Africa dry of working youth during the slave trade. And there is no way to know if many African countries would be better or worse off had colonialism not followed a bleeding of population with a bleeding of resources, along with brutal oppression of the already suffering population. While one can slide these past misdeeds of American and European ancestors under the carpet and say sorry, your comment is the same rational that I was given by many white South Africans when explaining why apartheid wasn''t such a bad thing.
You''re using the flawed argument of an abusive parent, who explains to their child that it''s okay that they are being beaten, because where would they be without them. It is patronizing and quite frankly, immoral.
Most African countries have not been given a level playing field when it comes to economic development, so it is absurd to use a US economic model to explain an African economy.
Diamond corperations continue to bleed the continent dry of it''s natural resources, using this same argument, that they''re creating jobs and a better living for people. Your argument seems to suggest "never mind if that better living includes HIV infection that I''ll carry back to my family."
This is not to suggest that mining companies need to regulate the sex habits of their employees, not does it suggest that mining companies are going to be able to have much of an effect on the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Having lived and worked in HIV/AIDS education in southern Africa for two years, it is obvious to me that there needs to be behavior change on the part of Africans. Behavior change takes a long time, and the tragedy is that HIV/AIDS doesn''t offer that time. However, the least mining companies can do is offer education to the employees they entice into their mines, offer free condoms, offer places to recreate where there is a lower chance of running into commercial sex workers, who have a very high risk of HIV/AIDS, offer more incentives to have their own wives visit them, or even live with them at the company compound. Mining companies have a responsibility to make efforts to limit the spread of HIV/AIDS because their very existence provides a haven for the virus to spread. Where does money for this sort of thing come from? Good lord, we''re talking about diamond mines!
Diamonds have been very good for many African countries, and continue to support the economies of Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, and Angola. It is essential that the West continue it''s facination with diamonds, and continue to buy them. However, they have also been very bad for African countries, Angola fought a diamond funded (and also US funded, but that''s another story) rebel group for 30 years that has decimated the country. No one can forget the images of children with brutally amputated limbs in Sierra Lione funded by diamond profits. While these conflicts have fortunately ended, why do you think the conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo is still going on? Where does that money come from? Engagement rings.
Hate to be such a downer on this forum, afterall, talk like that is bad for DeBeers, as it means they have to address these issues, and spend more of their profits on the mining, and tracking of diamonds. Fortunately they are aware of these problems, and consumers have forced companies to start to pay attention to these issues.
But please, pay attention to these issues, recognize the harm that diamonds have done to the world, and buy responsibly. And Ideal Rock, please, don''t use a Western economic model created on the backs of Africans in the past to justify current continued African exploitation.
Some businesses located in remote areas of various counties (including the US) also provide as an added benifit free housing, medical benifits, and even food, as part of the job benifits. While none of these types of jobs are the nicest (oil industry, mining, shipping, remote construction) they are typically highly sought after because of their relative high pay and benifits. Often, a person only working part of the year can support their entire family elsewhere for the entire year.
The African diamond mines are no different.
While the parallel may be correct in theory, the idea of comparing businesses in the US, or anywhere in the west, and businesses in most of Africa is absurd. With unemployment in many places in South Africa as high as 50% there is simply not the choice of employment to chose from. This breeds conditions for exploitation. Fortunately, many corperations do not share your simplistic capitalistic view of the world, and are starting to pay attention to this, which has been mentioned above.
While many of your other comments speak to a conservatively warped perception of Africa in general, I should comment on this one:
Would the next person who wants to claim that these workers and the countries are really being exploited and that somehow the companies are responsible for personal behavior please explain to me the effects on the people and the countries of not starting these industrial venturs and not providing these job opportuinities.
There is no way to know where many African countries would be without multinational corperations providing their "expertise". Indeed, there is no way to know what would have happened had American and European multi-nationals not bled the heart of Africa dry of working youth during the slave trade. And there is no way to know if many African countries would be better or worse off had colonialism not followed a bleeding of population with a bleeding of resources, along with brutal oppression of the already suffering population. While one can slide these past misdeeds of American and European ancestors under the carpet and say sorry, your comment is the same rational that I was given by many white South Africans when explaining why apartheid wasn''t such a bad thing.
You''re using the flawed argument of an abusive parent, who explains to their child that it''s okay that they are being beaten, because where would they be without them. It is patronizing and quite frankly, immoral.
Most African countries have not been given a level playing field when it comes to economic development, so it is absurd to use a US economic model to explain an African economy.
Diamond corperations continue to bleed the continent dry of it''s natural resources, using this same argument, that they''re creating jobs and a better living for people. Your argument seems to suggest "never mind if that better living includes HIV infection that I''ll carry back to my family."
This is not to suggest that mining companies need to regulate the sex habits of their employees, not does it suggest that mining companies are going to be able to have much of an effect on the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Having lived and worked in HIV/AIDS education in southern Africa for two years, it is obvious to me that there needs to be behavior change on the part of Africans. Behavior change takes a long time, and the tragedy is that HIV/AIDS doesn''t offer that time. However, the least mining companies can do is offer education to the employees they entice into their mines, offer free condoms, offer places to recreate where there is a lower chance of running into commercial sex workers, who have a very high risk of HIV/AIDS, offer more incentives to have their own wives visit them, or even live with them at the company compound. Mining companies have a responsibility to make efforts to limit the spread of HIV/AIDS because their very existence provides a haven for the virus to spread. Where does money for this sort of thing come from? Good lord, we''re talking about diamond mines!
Diamonds have been very good for many African countries, and continue to support the economies of Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, and Angola. It is essential that the West continue it''s facination with diamonds, and continue to buy them. However, they have also been very bad for African countries, Angola fought a diamond funded (and also US funded, but that''s another story) rebel group for 30 years that has decimated the country. No one can forget the images of children with brutally amputated limbs in Sierra Lione funded by diamond profits. While these conflicts have fortunately ended, why do you think the conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo is still going on? Where does that money come from? Engagement rings.
Hate to be such a downer on this forum, afterall, talk like that is bad for DeBeers, as it means they have to address these issues, and spend more of their profits on the mining, and tracking of diamonds. Fortunately they are aware of these problems, and consumers have forced companies to start to pay attention to these issues.
But please, pay attention to these issues, recognize the harm that diamonds have done to the world, and buy responsibly. And Ideal Rock, please, don''t use a Western economic model created on the backs of Africans in the past to justify current continued African exploitation.
and one more thing, to antwerpman above who suggests a link that will "proves" Botswana retains 80-90% of the profits, did anyone but me notice that link was to diamonds.net? What are the chances that diamonds.net is going to deliver an unbiased opinion. Even the article is ridiculous, bragging about creating DeBeers Botswana. Who is fooled by this reframing? Not me.
This one from amnesty international might make you reconsider taking diamonds.net''s word for it:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=80256DD400782B8480256F2D00643E62
Here''s another which, although a year old, shows some good news:
http://www.acca.org.uk/publications/studentaccountant/1107093
This one from amnesty international might make you reconsider taking diamonds.net''s word for it:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=80256DD400782B8480256F2D00643E62
Here''s another which, although a year old, shows some good news:
http://www.acca.org.uk/publications/studentaccountant/1107093
Antwerpman
Rough_Rock
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If you dont like that link you can try Busines Day the independant African business publicationDate: 4/21/2005 6:571 AM
Author: oshilig
and one more thing, to antwerpman above who suggests a link that will ''proves'' Botswana retains 80-90% of the profits, did anyone but me notice that link was to diamonds.net? What are the chances that diamonds.net is going to deliver an unbiased opinion. Even the article is ridiculous, bragging about creating DeBeers Botswana. Who is fooled by this reframing? Not me.
This one from amnesty international might make you reconsider taking diamonds.net''s word for it:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=80256DD400782B8480256F2D00643E62
Here''s another which, although a year old, shows some good news:
http://www.acca.org.uk/publications/studentaccountant/1107093
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Martin Rapaort who owns Diamonds.net is a deeply religious man who has done a lot in the industry to change practices and improve marketing and business opportunities for many West African countries. He was one of the first in the industry to promote change after NGO''s made their first alerts.
I personally assisted Martin to visit australia as part of that early cause and chaired a presentation he did at the trade fair here for Australian Jewelers. He paid all his own costs and flew direct from Israel to make it.
Together we rasied the issue of conflict diamonds here in Oz on national ABC TV and radio news interviews. So please do not even contemplate any idea that Rap is biased.
For your own benefit Os, and that of other readers who are interested in this topic - there must be 50 articles published in the rap mag that would all be there in the on-line news service. The Shocking photo''s are not - but let me assure you, they were in the hard copy magazine that every dealer who subscribes to THE industry price list recieves.
I personally assisted Martin to visit australia as part of that early cause and chaired a presentation he did at the trade fair here for Australian Jewelers. He paid all his own costs and flew direct from Israel to make it.
Together we rasied the issue of conflict diamonds here in Oz on national ABC TV and radio news interviews. So please do not even contemplate any idea that Rap is biased.
For your own benefit Os, and that of other readers who are interested in this topic - there must be 50 articles published in the rap mag that would all be there in the on-line news service. The Shocking photo''s are not - but let me assure you, they were in the hard copy magazine that every dealer who subscribes to THE industry price list recieves.
I stand happily corrected. The Buisness Day article is indeed good news, as is the continueing dialogue about resposible diamonds. However, from many comments on this forum, including the one that started this discussion, it is clear that many people are still in the dark when it comes to realizing where diamonds come from.
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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In the real world the vast majority just dont care as long as they get theirs.Date: 4/22/2005 117:10 AM
Author: oshilig
I stand happily corrected. The Buisness Day article is indeed good news, as is the continueing dialogue about resposible diamonds. However, from many comments on this forum, including the one that started this discussion, it is clear that many people are still in the dark when it comes to realizing where diamonds come from.
Everyone has known for years that nike uses child and sweat shop labor yet they continue to gobble up all the crappy shoes they can produce.
People just dont care.....
Do you also know that as "sweat shops" are shut down, it affects people adversely? In most of these countries where Nike and others pay pennies on the dollar compared to the West, these people working for them are living a higher standard of living than average? In some of these countries, $100/month is a lot of money. You cannot compare their standard of living to ours, it's like comparing apples to oranges, it's just not the same. I have seen interviews with people "saved" from sweat shops and their complaint is that they lost the highest paying job they'd ever had. They didn't feel saved from anything. One person actually said "we dont' need you to rescue us from anything. Now I don't have a job anymore"
innerkitten
Ideal_Rock
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innerkitten
Ideal_Rock
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sjz
Brilliant_Rock
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People care, but a lot of people have no clue as to what to do about a global problem. I''m sure that the cheapo shoes at Payless and other discount stores are made in the same types of sweatshops as Nike or any other brand. What are we going to do about it, stop wearing shoes?Date: 4/22/2005 11:15:11 AM
Author: strmrdr
In the real world the vast majority just dont care as long as they get theirs.Date: 4/22/2005 117:10 AM
Author: oshilig
I stand happily corrected. The Buisness Day article is indeed good news, as is the continueing dialogue about resposible diamonds. However, from many comments on this forum, including the one that started this discussion, it is clear that many people are still in the dark when it comes to realizing where diamonds come from.
Everyone has known for years that nike uses child and sweat shop labor yet they continue to gobble up all the crappy shoes they can produce.
People just dont care.....
Same thing goes for any consumer commodity, whether it''s shoes, diamonds, washing machines, produce, or whatever. Most of the labor used in any industry is not regulated as well as it should be.
Change will take a while, but eveyone can start by doing research before they buy. Try to shop where goods are made or produced by companies with a reputation for fair and honest labor practices. Don''t buy it if you don''t know where it comes from and how it was produced. Boycott companies that you know use child labor, sweatshops, or non-union labor. Vote for government leaders who have a reputation for upholding fair trade, labor unions, and laws regulating this type of abuse. Pray for the people who are mistreated in the name of consumerism.
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sjz these are entirely circular arguments that cut both ways.
Consider big drug companies - they never bother with treatments or cures for the maladies that effect the worlds poor. They cant afford the treatments so why bother?
Do any of you have retirement funds invested in those companies? How can you sleep at night blah blah blah.
Therefore drug companies and retirement funds and anyone who drives a car with gas from westafrican countries, or wears a ring made with aAngoloan or Siera Leonie gold is a butcher. We are all guilty as charged. Singling out diamonds is quite unlike singling out the fur trade.
Consider big drug companies - they never bother with treatments or cures for the maladies that effect the worlds poor. They cant afford the treatments so why bother?
Do any of you have retirement funds invested in those companies? How can you sleep at night blah blah blah.
Therefore drug companies and retirement funds and anyone who drives a car with gas from westafrican countries, or wears a ring made with aAngoloan or Siera Leonie gold is a butcher. We are all guilty as charged. Singling out diamonds is quite unlike singling out the fur trade.
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A small amount of doing business has cured my inclination to take holistic views of global problems seriously: inequality, development gaps... AIDS you name it and we''ll talk. For once, where the slogan comes from seems to make allot more difference than the subject itself. Inequality, Development and Global Trade Barriers do not mean quite the same in the US, EU or Eastern Europe. Those big words are more often bits of slogan than anything.
Quite often I wonder who are the people who really do have hands on experience either dealing with these issues or personal contact with those affected. Could it be that the jewelry trade is the oldest global business ?
Quite often I wonder who are the people who really do have hands on experience either dealing with these issues or personal contact with those affected. Could it be that the jewelry trade is the oldest global business ?
sjz
Brilliant_Rock
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You pretty much made the same point that I was trying to make, only worded differently. The difference with the drug companies is that they actually do pour a lot of R&D into medications, vaccines, water sanitation, and that type of thing that help the third world countries and the poor. It''s just that they don''t invest a lot of money into advertising and marketing those products. Most of the time they loose money on them. To make up the difference, they pour even MORE capital into developing marketable drugs and treatments for those in wealthier countries and really hammer us hard with the marketing and cost for the cures and remedies we consumers are clammoring for...like cholesteral lowering drugs, allergy medications, sleeping pills, antidepressants, sexual enhancements, birth control, and so forth. Those types of drugs would mean little or nothing to people in third world countries, or even to most of the more wealthy nations poor. They are in need of clean food and water, vaccinations, better nutrition, and prenatal care. Since the poor can''t pay for those things, the relatively wealthy consumers pay MORE than a premium for the drugs we buy. But then there are the ones who are always going to fall through the cracks in any society. The ones who aren''t destitute, but who also don''t have the means to pay for what they need. For the most part those peole are the elderly. But that''s a whole different topic.
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Sorry sjz, that is exactly not what I wrote.
Try this for callous
About 90% of the planet''s disease burden falls on the developing world. Yet only 3% of the research and development expenditure of the pharmaceutical industry is directed toward those ailments. The rest goes towards treating diseases of the rich.
So all of us who have money invested directly in, or use the products of, all the big drug companies should change our investment and shopping behaviour? Here is a link to the story in full:
http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3860425
Try this for callous
About 90% of the planet''s disease burden falls on the developing world. Yet only 3% of the research and development expenditure of the pharmaceutical industry is directed toward those ailments. The rest goes towards treating diseases of the rich.
So all of us who have money invested directly in, or use the products of, all the big drug companies should change our investment and shopping behaviour? Here is a link to the story in full:
http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3860425
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I feel that I must reply to Oshling as he seems to misunderstand my view of people, business, and the world.
I am the "Ideal Rock" that he mentions. Oshiling, if you would look I do have a name; Perry.
"Ideal Rock" is a title graciously awarded by Leonid for my knowledge on Diamonds and my willingness to help other people with issues on this forum. There are many other Ideal Rocks around who know far more than I do on Diamonds, who provide help on issues that I can''t even touch, and who spend more time on the forum than I helping people.
Oshling, please understand that I was not presenting a "western" model of business and trying to apply it to Africa. Business is business - regardless of where and in what culture.
The basic rules of how to build a long term successful business are the same all over the world. The basic idea of all business in the world is to make a profit for their owners; and the owners put their money and often efforts at risk in order to make that profit.
Good business owners do the best they can to help their employees; bad business owners do not - and may not even treat their employees legally in accordance with the local laws regarding employment compensation, working conditions, and other factors.
There are good business owners and bad business owners all over the world in every country.
I would also point out that when it comes to claims of exploitation – the Africans as a group cannot claim any special disposition. Africa and Asia are the two historical centers for the development and use of slavery (for many thousands of years before America and multinational companies ever existed). Africa and Asia is also the main areas in the world of active slavery to this day (and it is not the Europeans or Americans who are doing this to the Africans and Asians. It is fellow Africans and Asians).
I will freely admit that in many cases that slaves are the most exploited people in the world.
I will also concede that every culture and almost every country in the world has had some form of slavery at some time – there are even rules in the Bible on how a slave is to be treated (and the economic slavery in the southern US and Caribbean between the 1700’s and 1900’s could not have thrived if the biblical rules had been applied).
Putting slavery aside, however I think is the key difference that I present is how I see the issue of who is responsible for the person.
It is wholeheartedly my position that an individual adult person is responsible for their actions and by and large their position and place in life.
Yes there are short term issues and events which cause significant changes (usually for the worse). But the overriding evidence is that in every culture in the world is that you can’t keep a winner from winning, and you can’t keep a looser from loosing.
I have found that when a person believes that they are personally responsible for their success – that those are the people who succeed the most in any society. Burn down their house, destroy their current source of income, hit them with health issues, and other events often knocks the them down for a few years – but they figure out how to bounce back to their previous – or a higher – status level in their society. It happens time after time and the evidence is overwhelming.
I have also found that every culture in the world has a way for a person to raise themselves up in economic and/or political status. I am not saying it is easy, just that it is doable and everyone knows of someone who has done it. It is possible to change – for those who wish to change. It is also possible for people to fall into poverty and destitution – and examples of that exist is every culture as well.
On the other hand; when a person believes that someone else is responsible for their success in life – then they do not succeed well. More often than not they tend to just “survive” and will even willingly accept a cut in lifestyle before they are willing to change. I often hear these people use comments that they are to “just accept their lot in life.”
I also find that it is this second group – those that believes that someone else is responsible who do the most complaining about things. These people seem to believe that the government or some business owes them things in life.
In fact the very concept of unemployment falls into the second category. You can only have unemployment if you believe that someone else owes you a job – or is supposed to create a job for you.
Many people in the first group – those who believe that they are personally responsible for their own success realize that if they cannot readily find a pleasant job – that it is their responsibility to create their own job.
Many people thus become farmers, hunters, craftsman, “self employed” tradesman, thieves, and other things.
A great many people have no desire to ever work for someone else. This is true in all societies.
Please note that I am defining a “job” as simply the activity that you do to earn your sustenance and support you and your family in whatever lifestyle you chose to live in.
If there were truly 50% unemployment in some of these countries – there would soon be a close to 50% death rate of that countries population.
In my view, all a company owes you is a honest pay and reasonable working conditions for an honest days work. People in some cultures may also get other benefits as per their culture. However, beyond that I do not feel that the companies are responsible for a great many things that some people think a company is supposed to provide. Of course, it is true that depending on the occupation or special skills that the companies that do best also provides various other benefits to keep their workers most productive. That is however based upon production and not a right for all employees. Note that I have been an employee for many years, but am developing my own company on the side.
Please do not claim that I do not understand how things work in other countries. I do understand far better than most Americans. I have been around a bit. I do admit that I used to be the “typical arrogant American” that many people in the world dread. “If we were in the US this is how we would solve your problem” is what I used to think. Then I spent a week in Haiti. Haiti changed my life – the things I saw there completely challenged my basic American operating system. None of the “American” solutions would work there. I literally walked around for weeks afterwards in “basic zombie autopilot” while I thought through things.
I now know that few of the American methods will directly translate into useful methods in other cultures. Methods must fit the basic culture that you are working in. My “American” blinders are off. I now know how wrong I was in many of my earlier judgments on how to “fix” things I saw in other countries.
In fact, in many cases I now know that I don’t have a real clue how to fix things because I don’t know the culture, and the clashes of culture, well enough. This is why I direct most of my personal overseas aid to organizations that have existed on the local level for years and who have shown that they can operate differently in different countries.
On the other hand, I now know how special America is and why so many people want to live here (why is it than no other country in the world has so many people who wish to immigrate to it…)
One thing I have found is that some of the “religious” organizations can be remarkably ineffective because they are tying to operate in all countries in the same way (and have been kicked out of a number of countries). Other “religious” organizations that are more focused on helping, and less on preaching, and are welcome everywhere (If you want a good indication of the Organizations true disposition just ask them to identify to you which countries they operate in – and which countries they have been asked to leave or kicked out of, and then look at a map of the predominate religions of the world and compare).
In the end and as it relates to this discussion: I admire the workers who are willing to leave their families to work in a remote location and earn a higher than average wage to better provide for their family at home. I admire the companies that provide these better than average conditions to attract the best workers, and that they make an attempt to educate their workers on some significant issues. I think that these companies are actually on the good side of the equation.
But, I reject the concept that the companies are responsible for the workers personal behavior when they are not working. I also reject completely the argument that the company is responsible for more than that or that the company owes the people or the country more than that.
I believe that the individual is by and large responsible for their success and station in life.
Who’s responsible for your success?
Note that I don’t have time today, or even this upcoming week, to get into the discussion on how companies invest in the world – and the effects on that investment by choices made by personal investors. I will acknowledge that it is a valid side discussion.
Perry
I am the "Ideal Rock" that he mentions. Oshiling, if you would look I do have a name; Perry.
"Ideal Rock" is a title graciously awarded by Leonid for my knowledge on Diamonds and my willingness to help other people with issues on this forum. There are many other Ideal Rocks around who know far more than I do on Diamonds, who provide help on issues that I can''t even touch, and who spend more time on the forum than I helping people.
Oshling, please understand that I was not presenting a "western" model of business and trying to apply it to Africa. Business is business - regardless of where and in what culture.
The basic rules of how to build a long term successful business are the same all over the world. The basic idea of all business in the world is to make a profit for their owners; and the owners put their money and often efforts at risk in order to make that profit.
Good business owners do the best they can to help their employees; bad business owners do not - and may not even treat their employees legally in accordance with the local laws regarding employment compensation, working conditions, and other factors.
There are good business owners and bad business owners all over the world in every country.
I would also point out that when it comes to claims of exploitation – the Africans as a group cannot claim any special disposition. Africa and Asia are the two historical centers for the development and use of slavery (for many thousands of years before America and multinational companies ever existed). Africa and Asia is also the main areas in the world of active slavery to this day (and it is not the Europeans or Americans who are doing this to the Africans and Asians. It is fellow Africans and Asians).
I will freely admit that in many cases that slaves are the most exploited people in the world.
I will also concede that every culture and almost every country in the world has had some form of slavery at some time – there are even rules in the Bible on how a slave is to be treated (and the economic slavery in the southern US and Caribbean between the 1700’s and 1900’s could not have thrived if the biblical rules had been applied).
Putting slavery aside, however I think is the key difference that I present is how I see the issue of who is responsible for the person.
It is wholeheartedly my position that an individual adult person is responsible for their actions and by and large their position and place in life.
Yes there are short term issues and events which cause significant changes (usually for the worse). But the overriding evidence is that in every culture in the world is that you can’t keep a winner from winning, and you can’t keep a looser from loosing.
I have found that when a person believes that they are personally responsible for their success – that those are the people who succeed the most in any society. Burn down their house, destroy their current source of income, hit them with health issues, and other events often knocks the them down for a few years – but they figure out how to bounce back to their previous – or a higher – status level in their society. It happens time after time and the evidence is overwhelming.
I have also found that every culture in the world has a way for a person to raise themselves up in economic and/or political status. I am not saying it is easy, just that it is doable and everyone knows of someone who has done it. It is possible to change – for those who wish to change. It is also possible for people to fall into poverty and destitution – and examples of that exist is every culture as well.
On the other hand; when a person believes that someone else is responsible for their success in life – then they do not succeed well. More often than not they tend to just “survive” and will even willingly accept a cut in lifestyle before they are willing to change. I often hear these people use comments that they are to “just accept their lot in life.”
I also find that it is this second group – those that believes that someone else is responsible who do the most complaining about things. These people seem to believe that the government or some business owes them things in life.
In fact the very concept of unemployment falls into the second category. You can only have unemployment if you believe that someone else owes you a job – or is supposed to create a job for you.
Many people in the first group – those who believe that they are personally responsible for their own success realize that if they cannot readily find a pleasant job – that it is their responsibility to create their own job.
Many people thus become farmers, hunters, craftsman, “self employed” tradesman, thieves, and other things.
A great many people have no desire to ever work for someone else. This is true in all societies.
Please note that I am defining a “job” as simply the activity that you do to earn your sustenance and support you and your family in whatever lifestyle you chose to live in.
If there were truly 50% unemployment in some of these countries – there would soon be a close to 50% death rate of that countries population.
In my view, all a company owes you is a honest pay and reasonable working conditions for an honest days work. People in some cultures may also get other benefits as per their culture. However, beyond that I do not feel that the companies are responsible for a great many things that some people think a company is supposed to provide. Of course, it is true that depending on the occupation or special skills that the companies that do best also provides various other benefits to keep their workers most productive. That is however based upon production and not a right for all employees. Note that I have been an employee for many years, but am developing my own company on the side.
Please do not claim that I do not understand how things work in other countries. I do understand far better than most Americans. I have been around a bit. I do admit that I used to be the “typical arrogant American” that many people in the world dread. “If we were in the US this is how we would solve your problem” is what I used to think. Then I spent a week in Haiti. Haiti changed my life – the things I saw there completely challenged my basic American operating system. None of the “American” solutions would work there. I literally walked around for weeks afterwards in “basic zombie autopilot” while I thought through things.
I now know that few of the American methods will directly translate into useful methods in other cultures. Methods must fit the basic culture that you are working in. My “American” blinders are off. I now know how wrong I was in many of my earlier judgments on how to “fix” things I saw in other countries.
In fact, in many cases I now know that I don’t have a real clue how to fix things because I don’t know the culture, and the clashes of culture, well enough. This is why I direct most of my personal overseas aid to organizations that have existed on the local level for years and who have shown that they can operate differently in different countries.
On the other hand, I now know how special America is and why so many people want to live here (why is it than no other country in the world has so many people who wish to immigrate to it…)
One thing I have found is that some of the “religious” organizations can be remarkably ineffective because they are tying to operate in all countries in the same way (and have been kicked out of a number of countries). Other “religious” organizations that are more focused on helping, and less on preaching, and are welcome everywhere (If you want a good indication of the Organizations true disposition just ask them to identify to you which countries they operate in – and which countries they have been asked to leave or kicked out of, and then look at a map of the predominate religions of the world and compare).
In the end and as it relates to this discussion: I admire the workers who are willing to leave their families to work in a remote location and earn a higher than average wage to better provide for their family at home. I admire the companies that provide these better than average conditions to attract the best workers, and that they make an attempt to educate their workers on some significant issues. I think that these companies are actually on the good side of the equation.
But, I reject the concept that the companies are responsible for the workers personal behavior when they are not working. I also reject completely the argument that the company is responsible for more than that or that the company owes the people or the country more than that.
I believe that the individual is by and large responsible for their success and station in life.
Who’s responsible for your success?
Note that I don’t have time today, or even this upcoming week, to get into the discussion on how companies invest in the world – and the effects on that investment by choices made by personal investors. I will acknowledge that it is a valid side discussion.
Perry
sjz
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2005
- Messages
- 1,173
I think I know what you meant to write, and I agreed with you on principal. I just think you are wrong for using drug companies as your example.Date: 4/24/2005 5:326 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Sorry sjz, that is exactly not what I wrote.
Try this for callous
About 90% of the planet''s disease burden falls on the developing world. Yet only 3% of the research and development expenditure of the pharmaceutical industry is directed toward those ailments. The rest goes towards treating diseases of the rich.
So all of us who have money invested directly in, or use the products of, all the big drug companies should change our investment and shopping behaviour? Here is a link to the story in full:
http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3860425
What people don''t get about what drug companies is that it is expensive to do what they do. No government funds are ever enough. Same with funding from the private sector. The only way they make money is from the products they SELL, not the ones they give away. In order for them to do what people like you feel is so little for the poor nations, they have to sell a hell of a lot of drugs for treating the diseases of the rich. That is who pays for much of what is done in third world countries and for every nation''s poor.
Of course, there are those who profit. That is what happens in a capitalistic society. But to think that drug companies do little or no good for anyone other than the rich is just plain wrong. Just as wrong as blaming so much "bad stuff" on the diamond industry. There is a certain amount of greed and corruption in virtually everything in this world. Writing industries off as being useless or corrupt all together is akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water. Another note...many of the drugs we buy for our rich people''s ailments were discovered while looking for vaccines, cures, and treatments for things like AIDS, cholera, malnutrition, dysentery, and other diseases and conditions that are afflicting underdeveloped nations. All of us, in a sense, are profiting from that research. Who can say that about NIKE shoes?
There are articles that I could find for you to look at that would argue well both sides of this argument, so that to me is pointless.
Diamond mines do not hold a monopoly on exploiting people in the name of the all mighty dollar. Drug companies have some moral questions to deal with when it comes to the number of people suffering and dying from illnesses they cannot afford medication for.
This is I believe is the problem with Business is Business. Capitalism is not by it''s nature moral. I think there have been moves to rectify this as globalization makes it easier for multi-national corperations to hold considerable economic power over developing countries in Africa. However, these moves are slow, and nothing compared to the growing Western influence on the world. There is an excellent movie out recently called The Corperation which describes goes in detail how corperations are inherently bad for people (based on a book of the same name by Joel Baken).
However in response to Perry''s description of personal responsibility for success. It sounds like there is still some "arrogant american" in your view of the world. What is most disturbing about the view that "just anyone" can make it in the world, is that it inevitably leads to judgements about a person''s worth. If "anyone can make it" then anyone who doesn''t must have something wrong with their value as a human. Equally disturbing is the flip side, where anyone who does achieve financial success did so because they were better than others. Unfortunately, this is not a new view of the world and personal success. It allows people to be able to look at those in poverty as deserving of their problems, because they just didn''t work hard enough. While in the West, people do have great opportunity to rise above adversity to achieve success (although read Nickeled and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich to see how difficult this is) much of the world simply doesn''t have the marvelous opportunities offered by the most powerful nation on earth. I owe much of my sucess to the fact that I grew up in a society that valued education, a government that provided funding for 1st class universities, and a passport that opens many doors.
As for unemployment numbers, I worked in northern Namibia for two years. The students I taught were looking at a one in three chance that they would find a job in their area when they graduated. Diamond mining jobs were very lucrative, and impossible to pass up if offered. With that sort of guaranteed labor force, businesses are free to offer as little benifits they can.
Here are some Figures from South Africa (although one is a bit old):
http://www.proudlysa.co.za/level2/media.asp?include=../docs/news/2003/0411.html
http://www.fnb.co.za/economics/ruite.asp
These are numbers for the entire country, and in many communities the figures are well over 50%. Perry''s morbid comment about the death rate being connected to unemployment rates was disturbingly accurate. Here are HIV/AIDS statistics from South Africa:
http://www.unaids.org/EN/geographical+area/by+country/south+africa.asp
If you search around UNAIDS you''ll find regional breakdowns within South Africa.
Botswana, where most of Africa''s diamonds come from, has even scarier figures:
http://www.unaids.org/EN/geographical+area/by+country/botswana.asp
What does this have to do with Diamond Mines? Two things:
1. The idea that these Western companies owe nothing to the people of the countries they operate in is assuming all countries had the same opportunity to develp equally. It ignores the brutal history of slavery, colonialism, and the more subtle brutality of structural adjustment programs offered by the IMF and World Bank. This idea also ignores the fact that Western businesses come to developing countries with a huge economic advantage. While Debeer''s recent move towards responsible business is laudable, there aren''t enough diamonds in the world to pay retribution for its long history of exploiting Africans.
2. Well, perhaps its an attempt to further open the eyes of diamond buyers to where these shiny things come from. Perry''s week in Haiti was something everyone should try, take off the blinders and try to see the impact the US has on the world. (Haiti by the way suffers in large part because of the US''s interference, twice helping to oust democratically elected leaders to maintain economic advantages). I''ve spent 4 years living and working in Africa, I surely am not the same person. However, the original message of this thread, and the scarcity of this sort of discussion on PC suggested to me that not everyone is fully cognizant of where diamonds come from, or, they just don''t like to talk about it because it probably makes some people feel uncomfortable.
On the other hand, US consumers have the power to make a very positive impact. The Kimberly Process is at least in part a result of this pressure from consumers (although more a reaction of blood diamonds than exploitive companies). Nike''s change of policy towards treatment of overseas workers was a direct result of public outcries. So vote with your dollar and your concience.
What would be lovely to see on this forum is more discussion on how to make this positive impact, as has been mentioned above. I''m new to the diamond looking, but it seems PC is a very popular forum, and there seem to be many experts from the industry. If you are as alarmed as Innerkitten was at the idea that diamond miners are very high risk migrant workers, then perhaps more questions should be asked from the experts, and especially from the sellers.
This is I believe is the problem with Business is Business. Capitalism is not by it''s nature moral. I think there have been moves to rectify this as globalization makes it easier for multi-national corperations to hold considerable economic power over developing countries in Africa. However, these moves are slow, and nothing compared to the growing Western influence on the world. There is an excellent movie out recently called The Corperation which describes goes in detail how corperations are inherently bad for people (based on a book of the same name by Joel Baken).
However in response to Perry''s description of personal responsibility for success. It sounds like there is still some "arrogant american" in your view of the world. What is most disturbing about the view that "just anyone" can make it in the world, is that it inevitably leads to judgements about a person''s worth. If "anyone can make it" then anyone who doesn''t must have something wrong with their value as a human. Equally disturbing is the flip side, where anyone who does achieve financial success did so because they were better than others. Unfortunately, this is not a new view of the world and personal success. It allows people to be able to look at those in poverty as deserving of their problems, because they just didn''t work hard enough. While in the West, people do have great opportunity to rise above adversity to achieve success (although read Nickeled and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich to see how difficult this is) much of the world simply doesn''t have the marvelous opportunities offered by the most powerful nation on earth. I owe much of my sucess to the fact that I grew up in a society that valued education, a government that provided funding for 1st class universities, and a passport that opens many doors.
As for unemployment numbers, I worked in northern Namibia for two years. The students I taught were looking at a one in three chance that they would find a job in their area when they graduated. Diamond mining jobs were very lucrative, and impossible to pass up if offered. With that sort of guaranteed labor force, businesses are free to offer as little benifits they can.
Here are some Figures from South Africa (although one is a bit old):
http://www.proudlysa.co.za/level2/media.asp?include=../docs/news/2003/0411.html
http://www.fnb.co.za/economics/ruite.asp
These are numbers for the entire country, and in many communities the figures are well over 50%. Perry''s morbid comment about the death rate being connected to unemployment rates was disturbingly accurate. Here are HIV/AIDS statistics from South Africa:
http://www.unaids.org/EN/geographical+area/by+country/south+africa.asp
If you search around UNAIDS you''ll find regional breakdowns within South Africa.
Botswana, where most of Africa''s diamonds come from, has even scarier figures:
http://www.unaids.org/EN/geographical+area/by+country/botswana.asp
What does this have to do with Diamond Mines? Two things:
1. The idea that these Western companies owe nothing to the people of the countries they operate in is assuming all countries had the same opportunity to develp equally. It ignores the brutal history of slavery, colonialism, and the more subtle brutality of structural adjustment programs offered by the IMF and World Bank. This idea also ignores the fact that Western businesses come to developing countries with a huge economic advantage. While Debeer''s recent move towards responsible business is laudable, there aren''t enough diamonds in the world to pay retribution for its long history of exploiting Africans.
2. Well, perhaps its an attempt to further open the eyes of diamond buyers to where these shiny things come from. Perry''s week in Haiti was something everyone should try, take off the blinders and try to see the impact the US has on the world. (Haiti by the way suffers in large part because of the US''s interference, twice helping to oust democratically elected leaders to maintain economic advantages). I''ve spent 4 years living and working in Africa, I surely am not the same person. However, the original message of this thread, and the scarcity of this sort of discussion on PC suggested to me that not everyone is fully cognizant of where diamonds come from, or, they just don''t like to talk about it because it probably makes some people feel uncomfortable.
On the other hand, US consumers have the power to make a very positive impact. The Kimberly Process is at least in part a result of this pressure from consumers (although more a reaction of blood diamonds than exploitive companies). Nike''s change of policy towards treatment of overseas workers was a direct result of public outcries. So vote with your dollar and your concience.
What would be lovely to see on this forum is more discussion on how to make this positive impact, as has been mentioned above. I''m new to the diamond looking, but it seems PC is a very popular forum, and there seem to be many experts from the industry. If you are as alarmed as Innerkitten was at the idea that diamond miners are very high risk migrant workers, then perhaps more questions should be asked from the experts, and especially from the sellers.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 18,813
So O, the answer is to fight business with better business.
Adam Smith technology.
Help africans get cheap mobile phone services and internet conectivity
establish marketing and sales infrastructure
''teach them to fish''
and most of all - drop our western world import restrictions on primary products
Adam Smith technology.
Help africans get cheap mobile phone services and internet conectivity
establish marketing and sales infrastructure
''teach them to fish''
and most of all - drop our western world import restrictions on primary products
sjz
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2005
- Messages
- 1,173
I think there is a misconception when people think of "drug companies". A lot of the name brand drug companies that are well known don''t even do the R&D on the drugs they sell. A lot of that is done by independent labs. The drug companies then buy the "rights" to sell the drugs under their own brand name. Didn''t you ever wonder why there were so many "similar" drugs with different names sold under different brand names? The labs develop the drugs, then make slight chemical changes to the molecules to slightly change the drugs chemical composition, but not enough to actually change the drug actions. The drug company buys the drug, then patents it to sell under it''s own brand. The labs continue to fund their research by selling the rights (or the recipe if you will) for these drugs to the different drug companies. The drug companies then go on to do what every other business does...market the heck out of them and charge as much as they can get. There are also middle men who want to profit, such as the advertising firms, the endorsers, the pharmacies who sell the drugs, etc. We are paying for all of those as well. Most insurance companies will pay better for generic drugs, but sometimes certain drugs take years for the patents to expire so that generic labs can manufacture them.
It''s all a business. The government gets their hand in things, too by regulating the testing and safety of the drugs before they ever hit the market. A lot of politics murks those waters. Lobbyists and special interest groups get involved, and put pressure on the FDA and the other government agencies who approve the drugs and either speed up or slow down the approval of new drugs. Lots of those lobbyists and special interests groups are employed by competing drug companies.
But with all that being said, the labs and drug companies do work hard to find cures and treatments diseases. It takes money, though. And it TAKES money to make money. It''s a vicious cycle. I''m sure it''s the same for the diamond industry, as well as any other business.
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