Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance...

[ksinger]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Each to their own! It isn't a test of character, just a different set of priorities. No right or wrong. For Perry, my priorities won't work because he has a different outlook (and is at a different life stage to me, I totally accept that has a bearing). For me, his priorities wouldn't work for the same reason. Doesn't matter (unless he's about to propose to me, of course...j/k)

ETA J isn't irresponsible - he's thinking of quitting a job that causes him nothing but grief some days to be a SAHD, not betting the house on a poker game or anything!

Jennifer, I absolutely promise I was NOT in any way implying that your husband is fiscally irresponsible! I apologize if you got that from my post. It was not the intent!

 

[CUSO]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Well, I married for love and security.

I guess this is the part where I have to think we shouldn't judge other people because I admit I don't understand how you didn't want your future wife to stay at home or be an underachiever in your eyes but you just happened to be a stay at home dad. You seem to be doing something/ living a certain way that you say you didn't want a future wife to do. So what I get from this is that it's a very personal decision.

Well, the rest of my story.

I was part owner of a Mortgage company in the late 90's through 2005. Obviously we all know lots of mortgages were made durin that time, and I socked a way quite a savings and purchased several rental properties. So even if my wife was not employed as a lawyer, I still would be a SAHD. her carreer has little bearing on us financially. So while I am a SAHD, I ensured my families financial security before I became one.

 

[Jennifer W]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Each to their own! It isn't a test of character, just a different set of priorities. No right or wrong. For Perry, my priorities won't work because he has a different outlook (and is at a different life stage to me, I totally accept that has a bearing). For me, his priorities wouldn't work for the same reason. Doesn't matter (unless he's about to propose to me, of course...j/k)

ETA J isn't irresponsible - he's thinking of quitting a job that causes him nothing but grief some days to be a SAHD, not betting the house on a poker game or anything!

Jennifer, I absolutely promise I was NOT in any way implying that your husband is fiscally irresponsible! I apologize if you got that from my post. It was not the intent!

No worries, I just wanted to be clear that he isn't a squandering philanderer. I may feel differently if he was reckless.

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Each to their own! It isn't a test of character, just a different set of priorities. No right or wrong. For Perry, my priorities won't work because he has a different outlook (and is at a different life stage to me, I totally accept that has a bearing). For me, his priorities wouldn't work for the same reason. Doesn't matter (unless he's about to propose to me, of course...j/k)

ETA J isn't irresponsible - he's thinking of quitting a job that causes him nothing but grief some days to be a SAHD, not betting the house on a poker game or anything!

Jennifer, I absolutely promise I was NOT in any way implying that your husband is fiscally irresponsible! I apologize if you got that from my post. It was not the intent!

No worries, I just wanted to be clear that he isn't a squandering philanderer. I may feel differently if he was reckless.

Dude, that guy makes the BEST salmon frosted cupcakes around...he can quit his job, stay home, and bake for me anytime!

ETA, forgot the word "BEST."

 

[princesss]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

I think you're smart to think all of these things through, Perry. I guess I come from the ksinger school of thought on marriage, because I view it largely through a practical lens. Yes, love and butterflies are great and wonderful, but in the end I want a partner with similar values, and some of those values include financial stability and the desire for career growth. Around my "love is all you need" friends, I feel unromantic at best, and like a money-loving snob at worst, but I learned from dating my ex that to be with somebody without similar views on these things will drive me insane. I don't want to feel responsible for bringing somebody up to the (financial/lifestyle) level I want - I want somebody who already wants that and is working to make it happen. Love and butterflies can come after I vet the guy for the traits I need.

It sounds like you are, in your typically practical way, thinking this through from all angles BEFORE becoming entangled. It doesn't sound like this was a romantic relationship before where this information was suddenly dropped on you - you're getting a chance to think everything through before deciding to rekindle the romantic aspect of your relationship, which is great (and something very few of us get to do).

Personally, I probably wouldn't marry this woman given the mismatch in debt and what that signifies - you'll be taking care of her instead of working together to better your life together. Is marriage something you really want from her? Would some kind of domestic partnership work for the two of you, or is it marriage or nothing?

 

[princesss]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Each to their own! It isn't a test of character, just a different set of priorities. No right or wrong. For Perry, my priorities won't work because he has a different outlook (and is at a different life stage to me, I totally accept that has a bearing). For me, his priorities wouldn't work for the same reason. Doesn't matter (unless he's about to propose to me, of course...j/k)

ETA J isn't irresponsible - he's thinking of quitting a job that causes him nothing but grief some days to be a SAHD, not betting the house on a poker game or anything!

Jennifer, I absolutely promise I was NOT in any way implying that your husband is fiscally irresponsible! I apologize if you got that from my post. It was not the intent!

No worries, I just wanted to be clear that he isn't a squandering philanderer. I may feel differently if he was reckless.

Dude, that guy makes the salmon frosted cupcakes around...he can quit his job, stay home, and bake for me anytime!

*snort* How did I forget about the salmon frosted cupcakes?

Jen, hearing you talk about your husband gives me the warm and fuzzies.

 

[Jennifer W]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Ahahaha! The cupcakes! Poor love will never, ever be allowed to live them down, and he was just trying to do something nice for me. That'll teach him!
He gives me the warm fuzzies too. I'm not saying he's perfect (see salmon frosted cupcakes, above) but he's pretty darned good.

ETA
Perry, I don't really empathise with your mindset on this, but I do respect it and accept that's how you need to think about a marriage. My only practical suggestion is that you have this conversation with your prospective spouse. If you can discuss it in more or less the terms you've presented here, and reach a point where you're both able to move forward, then you may just have found the right person. Someone who would make you happy and vice versa would have to be able be robust and very much on the same page as you over the issue. If you can have this discussion with her and work out some ideas without it being a fight, might that tell you what you need to know?

 

[HollyS]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

A smart woman marries for love. BUT . . . . . she has considered the earning power of her potential mate. And his spending habits. And his generousity. And his ability to save.


If you marry for money . . . money has a way of either evaporating, or looking less attractive as time goes on.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

A smart woman marries for love. BUT . . . . . she has considered the earning power of her potential mate. And his spending habits. And his generousity. And his ability to save.....

and a smart man does the same.

MoZo

 

[Bliss]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Well, the young marry for love first and foremost. They have that luxury. I did! But I think the older you get, your list of what is most important changes. Most people in my parents' generation re-marry or marry for companionship and agape love over the fiery passionate can't-live-without-you brand of love. And in those cases, it is a more practical arrangement in terms of who has what and how each will contribute.

Many people near retirement age are looking forward to a life of leisure - country clubs, golf, fine dining and travel. Or even peace of mind - that is a priceless thing!!! You have peace of mind and that is a very valuable asset thanks to years of hard work and smart choices made throughout your life. It's like having a big storehouse of grain for the future. I would padlock that thing and make sure I could handle the lean years along with the good ones!

I think finances matter when you have the luxury of contemplating a union later in life because you've built up substantial assets and retirement planning. It would be silly if one were near retirement years *not* to consider finances as a legitimate concern in a marriage. The earning potential of each individual would be dwindling at that age (along with likelihood of being able to save/build up assets again after a big financial hit). The idea of one's golden years is to sit back and enjoy the fruits of one's labors in life, isn't it? The last thing I would do is jeopardize my future in that way. To me, it would be like driving a car with no insurance. It might be OK if you're lucky but you're basically one unforseen catastrophe away from a very dire, very bleak situation.

ETA: It will sound harsh, but it's easier for the other parties (the ones with crippling debt you've described) to sing about love and how important it is because they have little to lose coming into this union. Ask anyone with substantial assets over 45 if love is all that matters. They know what it took to get there and what it takes to maintain that mountain of security. They're not going to let anyone with loose dynamite near that mountain without a thorough evaluation. Love is grand, but I'd rather be single than light a match to my security when I'm but 10 paces away from retirement. What is so horrible about being single? Can't one have love and companionship without marriage later in life? Does it have to be legally binding?

 

[perry]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Again thanks all.

Each to their own! It isn't a test of character, just a different set of priorities. No right or wrong. For Perry,..... Doesn't matter (unless he's about to propose to me, of course...j/k)

Jennifer:

You would consider having two husbands... Usually its the other way around - but if thats what you would like... I am sure that there is another guy out there for you. I'd at least give you the courtesy of thinking about it.... but not sure up front if its my cup of tea...

Perry

 

[Jennifer W]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Again thanks all.

Each to their own! It isn't a test of character, just a different set of priorities. No right or wrong. For Perry,..... Doesn't matter (unless he's about to propose to me, of course...j/k)

Jennifer:

You would consider having two husbands... Usually its the other way around - but if thats what you would like... I am sure that there is another guy out there for you. I'd at least give you the courtesy of thinking about it.... but not sure up front if its my cup of tea...

Perry

I just laughed out loud at this! Thank you Perry, for agreeing to think about it. I don't know as we'd get along either, but heck I'm up for giving it a try if you are (you say you're rich, right?)

Jen

 

[rosetta]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

What an interesting thread this is.

Our definitions of love do vary quite a bit.

I'm sure I couldn't fall on love with someone who was completely irresponsible with money, or a complete Scrooge.

Ergo, on some level, I must value fiscal responsibility quite highly.

So when I say I would only marry for love, money (or the lack of it) is already factored into my decision-making process, even if it's subconscious.

Insight!

 

[D&T]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

in my early years very early twenties, it was all about love BUT i had control over my own finances...in my later years well if I was not married and looking to, it may have to be a balance of both love and money. Debt wouldn't be a huge issue (Ie student loan or mortgages) as long as BOTH were working together to resolve the issues, and not handing it over to the other spouse to take care of it.

 

[chemgirl]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

In my case, I love DH, but I was very hesitant to marry him because of significant credit card debt. He had to assure me that he wouldn't continue to accumulate debt, and also pay off a certain percentage of the debt before I would agree to marry him. The amount of debt was such that it would have taken me 10 years to pay off half of it with my income. I didn't want to go in to marriage with that stress.

Luckily for me, the debt was accumulated by his ex, so it wasn't indicative of his spending habbits (he should have put his foot down though). His income is much higher than mine, and he payed off half of the debt by the time we were engaged. He has now payed off more then three quarters of it without affecting my finances. If he had continued to accumulate debt, and just make minimum payments, I don't think I would have married him. I love him, but the financial stress would have lead to issues in our marriage.

So Perry, I really think your concerns are valid. I also don't think they say anything about how much you love this person. They are concerns that people can't really understand unless faced with this situation.

 

[perry]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Again thanks all.

Each to their own! It isn't a test of character, just a different set of priorities. No right or wrong. For Perry,..... Doesn't matter (unless he's about to propose to me, of course...j/k)

Jennifer:

You would consider having two husbands... Usually its the other way around - but if thats what you would like... I am sure that there is another guy out there for you. I'd at least give you the courtesy of thinking about it.... but not sure up front if its my cup of tea...

Perry

I just laughed out loud at this! Thank you Perry, for agreeing to think about it. I don't know as we'd get along either, but heck I'm up for giving it a try if you are (you say you're rich, right?)

Jen

See Jen, I think I just passed the first test.... making you laugh. Any good spouse or friend should be able to make you laugh.

Thinking about it though - I see a challenge with distance. I'd certainly want to be close enough to be able to routinely have some quality time with you. Currently I think we live a ways apart - unless your plan is for me to move there (warning, locations where I can be employed in my high paying "career" is probably not where you live); or perhaps you wanted to move to the peace and quite of a small city in Wisconsin.

As far as being rich... Yes, I'm rich with life experience (and money is only one of the 12 riches in life).

Do have a great day,

Perry

ps: I think we better take any more serious talk offline.

 

[perry]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Thanks all:

You have in part validated my concerns as reasonable - and in part given me things to think about.

In response to some of the comments I remember (without rereading the thread):

-- Yes, I've seen lots of marriages fall apart around me (and have been hurt a few times by people I was involved with - haven't we all). A couple personal lessons I've learned from that is that marriage is more than just love/lust (as fun as that is) - and involves making sure some of the more practical aspects of life are considered (such as finances, common beliefs, compatible personalities). It is also obvious that real marriages are about a lot more than having sex with each other - yet some people base their marriage on such sex.

-- I believe that most people who claim that money is not involved - have subconsciously evaluated their potential spouse for income/stability potential.

-- I understand that things can go wrong no matter your best laid plans. Then, you just do your best to make it work knowing that you took reasonable precautions against it.

-- I also understand that money does not buy happiness (neither does poverty). What money buys is the ability to shrug off the minor mistakes and time to deal with the non-financial issues of life.

-- For those who say that they'd rather live in a cardboard box (or in poverty): I came from poverty - most likely worse than anyone else on this site who grew up in the US. I actually know what it is like when you are collecting spilt grain in the gravel driveway at the feed-mill - because that grain is your supper. Or that you picked berries in the woods - as there was no other food that day. As an adult I also know what it is like to live in 1 bedroom cheep motels (rented by the week or month) and sharing apartments on the lower end of the economic scale. I also know what it's like to have about $45,000 in credit card debt (a decade ago) and how much work it was to pay that off. I only live in a modest house (55 years old), drive a modest car, etc. But I have no credit card debt - have several months income in savings, etc. - and can see how I'm going to pay off the house within 10 years. I sure don't wish to go back to where I was a decade or more ago.

-- I very much agree with whomever said that at its core that marriage is like a business proposition: You are making a commitment to each other to build a successful life together - and many of the features of that life have nothing to do with love (except that by having good conditions you enrich the ground where love grows).

-- For those who have suggested a pre-nup and a hard spit of our finances. Many people on this site have commented on how cold and logical I am. Yes I am more logical than others. But I am not so cold that I could just stand by and watch my spouse go into bankruptcy or loose all credit because she could not deal with a debt she had prior to the marriage. So yes, I am assuming that in this situation should we marry that I would have to take at least some responsibility - and if her health problems get worse - all responsibility.

In the end there are many ways to have a successful marriage - and many ways to skin the financial (and other) issues - depending on the people involved. I am flexible to consider various options. Many of you have explained your arrangments - and they are all OK because they work for you. But, I also have to be a realist as well as to how well the future is likely to be assuming everything goes as planned (and perhaps what is something goes wrong - at least to some degree).

I would again like to thank everyone for such an interesting discussion on the issues involved. Keep it up.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Well, Perry, don't assume that you're the only one here who has seen poverty, because the truth might surprise you. Just saying.

 

[ksinger]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Well, Perry, don't assume that you're the only one here who has seen poverty, because the truth might surprise you. Just saying.

Oh boy! A game of "Well I was so poor that...."

The first one to say he walked to school, barefoot, uphill in the snow, BOTH directions, wins!!!

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

-- I believe that most people who claim that money is not involved - have subconsciously evaluated their potential spouse for income/stability potential.

Some of us were so young at the time (I met my SO more than 20 years ago) that we never thought about the person's income potential, etc., but you can believe that most people who claim not to fit your view are lying to you or lying to themselves if you'd like. I guess I'm just "lucky" that I made the right decision for me and that I made it a long time ago. But, no, actually I don't feel "bad" about that. 20 years with someone isn't "easy" and who's to say there is no "price" to be paid? I often hear people who aren't in relationships wish they were in one. I sometimes wonder if they really know what they're talking about, if they'd really like to switch places. Oh, well. Everyone has a different life, and has to live it as they see fit.

 

[megumic]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

This is the kind of thing where if you have to ask then you already know. Might as well end the relationship now or at the least, concede to being life partners (and that you won't save her from bankruptcy - as you mentioned above.)

 

[Haven]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

This is the kind of thing where if you have to ask then you already know. Might as well end the relationship now or at the least, concede to being life partners (and that you won't save her from bankruptcy - as you mentioned above.)

I agree. My family has a saying for things like this: When in doubt, throw it out.
It sounds pretty rude in the context of this situation, but you know what I mean.

Perry--Though I don't know you well, I do know that you always put a lot of thought into things before you make a decision. I think it's a wise way to function.

Through the course of this thread I've come to agree with you that it's likely "that most people who claim that money is not involved - have subconsciously evaluated their potential spouse for income/stability potential."

And, not only does money buy you the ability to shrug off minor mistakes, it buys you freedom of choice, which does make a marriage much easier. For example: I was unhappy in my last job, so I quit and moved on and found a job that I love. Now I'm happy, DH is happy, and we can be happy together. Had we not had the money to support that move, I would have been unhappy, I would have made DH unhappy, and it would have been harder for us to cope.

As for building a successful life together, I do think that has to do with love. Everything my husband and I do for each other, and for our pets, is based on the fact that we love each other and them, and thus we want to do whatever is in everyone's best interest.

I do not claim to be an authority on marriage, but I can share that getting married is the best thing I've ever done. I firmly believe that I am living the best possible version of my life, and I credit so much of that to the relationship I have with my husband. If you want to find love and marriage, Perry, I hope you do, and I hope it's wonderful, because it really can be.