You are worth it!

[honey22]

Since you are so free to judge OUR sex lives - maybe I should come to a conclusion on your one.

Maybe if you had ''put out'' earlier, you may have got the ring?!

Of course not! I am not condoning using sex as a bargaining tool, but this is exactly what you are doing. You are suggesting that we should hold out on giving him the goods in order to get the ring. That''s totally appalling!

At least when we get a proposal, we will be sure it''s for the right reasons, and not because he was so sexually frustrated that he saw no other way out!!

I have jokingly had this conversation with my partner about holding out from now on, and he has told me quite seriously that if that''s how I feel and if it''s important to me, then he is happy to go without until we are married - because he respects me. A true man, one who sees past the sex and to the relationship underneath. I would NOT want to be married to a man who only hurried up the proposal to get laid - disgusting.

 

[Miscka]

Date: 2/21/2008 2:04:53 PM
Author: Delster

Date: 2/21/2008 1:32:40 PM
Author: decodelighted
It's like Grandma stumbled into a NOW rally

... c'mon gals ... who would be so furious in person at their well-meaning but a bit behind-the-times Grammy. This advice is AS OLD AS TIME, not some new offensive high-horse BS. Geez ... people are entitled to their own opinions. Balanced, mature individuals can cherry-pick wisdom and be confident about their own values without letting their heads spin around and vomiting fire all over the place.

INTENTIONS, ladies. It's the INTENTION that matters. And I think the OP genuinely thought she could save some heartbreak & time by schooling us on the method that worked for HER.

Deco, actually it was the intention behind the OP's advice that irked me when I read this thread. I believe the central core of the advice is sound isasmuch as it is telling women to value and cherish themselves entirely and to find men who will do the same. Many of the women on this board have chosen not to sleep with their partners before marriage and nobody flames them. The OP here, however, is advocating not sleeping with your partner before marriage as a form of manipulation that will enable you to find out if your man is 'a dud'. It's not a decision made in order to stay true to one's beliefs or faith or self-worth. The intention behind the advice is to show us all how to engage in blatant manipulation. I consider that abusive and would never do that to my partner.

Mediterranean - you're hilarious!

I had the exact same reaction. I mean, obviously the choice to have sex before marriage or not is personal and IMO there is no one right answer. However, holding out on sex as a way to get your man to propose or not is just wrong. Period. Also, I do not think she is anyones granny. I wonder why her post made Deco think that? There are young people that feel that way. Just based on her post I would guess she is ~40. Could be wrong, but that is my guess. However, I do agree that she was trying to help, I just do not see myself taking her advice.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/21/2008 2:39:23 PM
Author: honey22

Since you are so free to judge OUR sex lives - maybe I should come to a conclusion on your one.

Maybe if you had ''put out'' earlier, you may have got the ring?!

Of course not! I am not condoning using sex as a bargaining tool, but this is exactly what you are doing. You are suggesting that we should hold out on giving him the goods in order to get the ring. That''s totally appalling!

At least when we get a proposal, we will be sure it''s for the right reasons, and not because he was so sexually frustrated that he saw no other way out!!

I have jokingly had this conversation with my partner about holding out from now on, and he has told me quite seriously that if that''s how I feel and if it''s important to me, then he is happy to go without until we are married - because he respects me. A true man, one who sees past the sex and to the relationship underneath. I would NOT want to be married to a man who only hurried up the proposal to get laid - disgusting.

Alright gals, y''all stop getting yer panties in a bunch.

While I don''t agree with the advice here (I can''t, without being a hypocrite, since not only did I give away the milk for free, I served it up with warm cookies!), I think it''s being misconstrued a bit. I don''t believe the OP is saying that a man WILL propose to get laid. I think she is saying that IF sex is the main reason why he is with you, holding out will separate the men from the boys, so to speak. The one who DOES give you a proposal is the one who isn''t all about the sex...and instead is more about the entire package.

 

[Isolde]

To the OP: guys want sex? You act as though that is all they want. Isn''t that a bit of a generalisation? I don''t think it''s fair to portray men as lecherous animals, that forge and continue relationships based solely on the prospect of sex. It''s a silly stereotype that I hate seeing perpetuated.

As for your proposed experiment; my fiance and I are waiting for marriage. It hasn''t been an issue for us, and we''ve been together nearly five years. Frankly, the thought of a man slapping a ring on my finger just to be intimate with me, is genuinely foul. That, of all things, is supposed to stand as an indication of what a man is made of? That is supposed serve as a measure of their committment, love, and respect for a woman? In my mind, it shows the exact opposite! Who in their right mind would want a guy who "delivers" on a ring/date, just to speed up the chance of fulfilling his own desires? I know I wouldn''t.

 

[gwendolyn]

Two friends of mine got married while we were still in college because the chick was Mormon and, due to her religion, refused to have sex before marriage. They were married at 20 and divorced by 22.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/21/2008 2:49:03 PM
Author: Isolde

To the OP: guys want sex? You act as though that is all they want. Isn''t that a bit of a generalisation? I don''t think it''s fair to portray men as lecherous animals, that forge and continue relationships based solely on the prospect of sex. It''s a silly stereotype that I hate seeing perpetuated.

As for your proposed experiment; my fiance and I are waiting for marriage. It hasn''t been an issue for us, and we''ve been together nearly five years. Frankly, the thought of a man slapping a ring on my finger just to be intimate with me, is genuinely foul. That, of all things, is supposed to stand as an indication of what a man is made of? That is supposed serve as a measure of their committment, love, and respect for a woman? In my mind, it shows the exact opposite! Who in their right mind would want a guy who ''delivers'' on a ring/date, just to speed up the chance of fulfilling his own desires? I know I wouldn''t.

That''s right! Total stereotype! It''s WOMEN who forge and continue relationships based solely on the prospect of sex! Or...was that just me?

Again, I think the OP''s message is being taken the wrong way. No guy I know will propose JUST to get laid and "fulfill his own desires"...it''s too easy to get milk elsewhere if that''s REALLY all he wants. I mean, at the risk of offending further, how many of the contributors on THIS thread don''t put out at some point? Not many of us...

 

[FrekeChild]

I found the OP to be disgustingly judgemental making tons of gross generalizations. Essentially the only true thing you said about my personal situation is that we live together and he gets milk for free.

I would never ever impose my morals (or lack there of) of ANYONE on this forum. I think that if my BF (my LIVE-IN BF) were to read this, you''d have much stronger language coming your way, and I''d probably get banned. We know that we''ll get married-when we can afford it-and until then, we''ll both continue working towards our future. Together.

"Don''t give your body to a man who won''t honor you by committing his life to you for good. You deserve to be treated with honor...Either he''ll deliver on that ring and set a date, or he''s gonna leave."

Commitment does not equal a ring.


BTW I find it ironic that you tell us to make an ultimatum with a ring as the grand prize, but you didn''t even get the ring. Hmmm...interesting.

 

[bee*]

Date: 2/21/2008 2:20:26 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Mom? Is that you? When did you learn how to speak English??

You are killing me TGal!! Seriously cannot stop laughing!

 

[anchor31]

This whole discussion makes me pretty sad. Our choice to wait was purely personal and I know some people would think it''s a mistake. But as I expect them to respect my choice, I respect theirs. Saying that no sex equals ring is pretty simplistic too, there''s a lot more to a relationship than sex (or lack of) in relation to getting married. We will have waited 5 years to get married so we are firmly established and independant. That I believe is more important than sex and marriage. If people suggested my FI proposed so we could have sex, he would be deeply offended. In fact, I was more in a hurry to get married than he was, and again, it had nothing to do with sex.

gwendolyn - I''m not sure where you''re getting at with your last post here, but if you''re implying that people who wait for sex for religious reasons are doomed to divorce... Yikes.

 

[TravelingGal]

Anchor, I think it''s great you are waiting. My mom is pretty old fashioned and always hoped that I would wait. I remember telling her when I was quite young, "Don''t worry mom, I can always be like those girls who are having sex, but they can never go back to being like me." She said she never worried about me after that. Good thing too, because I got "derailed" at age 23. Hehehehe...

There are very PRACTICAL reasons for not having sex before marriage, but I won''t go into it here because it won''t further help with this entire discussion. People think that "religious" reasons is not a solid one for abstaining, but I have found there is a practicality behind much of it.

Bottom line ladies, whether you are having sex or not before marriage, if there is nothing in between your ears, the thing in between your legs will get you nowhere, REGARDLESS of what tactic you take.

 

[Mediterranean]

compter cheese...double post

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:08:33 PM
Author: anchor31
gwendolyn - I''m not sure where you''re getting at with your last post here, but if you''re implying that people who wait for sex for religious reasons are doomed to divorce... Yikes.

No, no, I''m not saying that, anchor. Everyone makes their own call for what works for them; it''s probably THE most personal aspect of a relationship there is. Sorry I didn''t put any explanation with my reference to my friends--I shouldn''t have just put it up like that because on its own it probably does come across like I think that way, and I don''t. I apologize if I offended you in any way with it. I shouldn''t have brought it up at all, because I can''t explain the reasons without getting way too personal, but no, I did not mean to sound like I thought all people who wait are doomed to divorce. That''s very, very far from the truth. Again, I apologize.

 

[Mediterranean]

Personally I was only offended by two things in the OP''s message:

1. The idea that my body is a "commodity," a mere object that can be used as a bargaining chip when I need to manipulate someone into giving me what I want. Hello! Objectifying me, much?

2. The idea that acting "fake" will get me what I want. (me suddenly turning into a woman who doesn''t have sex before marriage is, indeed, acting "fake" because that concept isn''t a part of my personal belief system)


So, yeah, I find it offensive when someone says to me: "Your body is a commodity, an object to be traded for what you want. When you don''t get what you want, act fake and revoke the use of the commodity or object until you get what you want"

I mean, yipes!

Am I supposed to do that each time he forgets to take out the trash, or what? It seems to set a nasty precident.....

 

[honey22]

Date: 2/21/2008 10:35:38 AM
Author:Cookie_tyme






Guys want sex. Gals want security. So they''re getting what they want, but you''re not. It''s time to break up, move out, and find a decent man.

Another point, now I am so fired up - I am a girl! I want sex too! Women have a libido just like men do and it''s naive to think differently. It''s so acceptable in society to assume men just do things for sex and their drive is so much higher, but it''s totally taboo for a woman to be sexually assertive or ''heavens forbid'' want sex.

He''s getting what he wants, I certainly am - our choice!! We''re happy. I''ll be happier next week when the ring arrives.

Now, just to figure out how to fit it on my hoof............

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:08:33 PM
Author: anchor31

gwendolyn - I'm not sure where you're getting at with your last post here, but if you're implying that people who wait for sex for religious reasons are doomed to divorce... Yikes.

Anchor, I didn't take it that way. I think she meant that if the only reason for the proposal was to hop into bed, then that's bad. No matter what releigion or whatever.

(Relationship - sex) + (ring + sex) = bad idea? LOL I was always bad at math...

ETA: Doh, too slow.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:15:27 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Bottom line ladies, whether you are having sex or not before marriage, if there is nothing in between your ears, the thing in between your legs will get you nowhere, REGARDLESS of what tactic you take.

So true TGal. So true...

 

[Independent Gal]

I'm with Deco on this one. OP's perspective is one worth hearing, even if you totally, radically disagree and choose to live in a different way. OK, so I'm not so keen on the idea that any woman should 'trade' sex for anything, the idea of waiting for marriage, and OP's point that men are less likely to marry if they have everything they want are worth taking seriously.

That doesn't mean you should withold what they want. Or trade it for anything.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:21:18 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 2/21/2008 3:08:33 PM
Author: anchor31
gwendolyn - I''m not sure where you''re getting at with your last post here, but if you''re implying that people who wait for sex for religious reasons are doomed to divorce... Yikes.

No, no, I''m not saying that, anchor. Everyone makes their own call for what works for them; it''s probably THE most personal aspect of a relationship there is. Sorry I didn''t put any explanation with my reference to my friends--I shouldn''t have just put it up like that because on its own it probably does come across like I think that way, and I don''t. I apologize if I offended you in any way with it. I shouldn''t have brought it up at all, because I can''t explain the reasons without getting way too personal, but no, I did not mean to sound like I thought all people who wait are doomed to divorce. That''s very, very far from the truth. Again, I apologize.

Thanks for the clarification. I was actually more puzzled and taken aback than offended. You''re a very sweet girl, and I couldn''t understand why you would make such a statement! Apology accepted, no harm done.

 

[Stephanie]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:01:04 PM
Author: bee*

Date: 2/21/2008 2:20:26 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Mom? Is that you? When did you learn how to speak English??

You are killing me TGal!! Seriously cannot stop laughing!

Me too! Oh my, this post has to contain some of the funniest lines ever! Like Med''s sausage line.. whew, can''t stop laughing!

As for the original post - I have a t-shirt that says "Free Milk" across the top with a picture of a cow on it. It was actually a funny joke between FI and I back when he was saving for my ring. So, whatever works to keep it all light-hearted. As long as you are happy with your lives, what should it matter to anyone else?

 

[decodelighted]

Amazed by the spread of opinions ... from amused to outraged to disgusted etc. IMHO the reactions say more about us as individuals than they do about the OP.

Delster, glad you explained your interpretation of her intent. I didn''t see that at all, where now I understand where you''re coming from: the *manipulative* nature of the proposed endeavor being offensive to your sensibilities. Eh, still seems like heard-it-a-million-times-old-school-logic. Not everyone has had women''s lib ephiphanies and its not surprising to me. My own mom is all "I wish guys still opened doors" and "I wish abortion was illegal so we didn''t have a choice"

and "the old days were better because women didn''t have to work" - blah blah blah. She wasn''t able to influence her own children with her (IMHO) nonsense so I can''t imagine this rhetoric sinking in anywhere these days. But, again, I''m not shocked to hear it.

Oh - another WILD CRAZY IDEA -- you don''t realize how MUCH of your sexuality & body & attractiveness actually is a commodity until YOU LOSE IT. There are big, huge, ugly generalities about this that we would PREFER didn''t exist, and can politically-correct-ize with Naive Glasses but ... we''re not there yet. Ask Hilary how enlightened the world is while they''re critisizing her haircut & lipstick & pantsuits while Kennedyizing Obama.
Not. There. Yet. But keep on believing!

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:31:01 PM
Author: anchor31
Thanks for the clarification. I was actually more puzzled and taken aback than offended. You''re a very sweet girl, and I couldn''t understand why you would make such a statement! Apology accepted, no harm done.

Thanks for being understanding, darlin''. I have this awful habit of having the full story in my head, but only voicing part of it before losing my train of thought or getting distracted, and then it ends up sounding way off from what I intended! I really have no excuse, since there''s no rush with posting on an internet forum, so I really do apologize. I need to be more careful before I hit ''submit!''

 

[FrekeChild]

My problem is that I'm not coming here to be preached to. Sure, she has her heart in the *right* place, but in effect she came in here and started attacking a lot of our lifestyles. With everything she said, she's touching on things that are none of her business.

It's called TACT and sensitivity. Don't come into my house and start talking smack about how I live my life. It's NOT WELCOME. Don't lecture me on things that you know next to nothing about. Especially when the OP can't even follow her own advice. She obviously didn't with hold sex until she got a ring!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:37:58 PM
Author: decodelighted


Oh - another WILD CRAZY IDEA -- you don''t realize how MUCH of your sexuality & body & attractiveness actually is a commodity until YOU LOSE IT. There are big, huge, ugly generalities about this that we would PREFER didn''t exist, and can politically-correct-ize with Naive Glasses but ... we''re not there yet. Ask Hilary how enlightened the world is while they''re critisizing her haircut & lipstick & pantsuits while Kennedyizing Obama.
Not. There. Yet. But keep on believing!

I sold myself to TGuy for 2 euro. I was in need of an espresso.

Now that I think about it, I think I coulda gotten two fifty.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:44:14 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 2/21/2008 3:37:58 PM

Author: decodelighted



Oh - another WILD CRAZY IDEA -- you don''t realize how MUCH of your sexuality & body & attractiveness actually is a commodity until YOU LOSE IT. There are big, huge, ugly generalities about this that we would PREFER didn''t exist, and can politically-correct-ize with Naive Glasses but ... we''re not there yet. Ask Hilary how enlightened the world is while they''re critisizing her haircut & lipstick & pantsuits while Kennedyizing Obama.

Not. There. Yet. But keep on believing!

I sold myself to TGuy for 2 euro. I was in need of an espresso.

Now that I think about it, I think I coulda gotten two fifty.

Thanks TGal. I needed to smile.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:44:14 PM
Author: TravelingGal
I sold myself to TGuy for 2 euro. I was in need of an espresso.


Now that I think about it, I think I coulda gotten two fifty.

How many times have you been told not to sell yourself short, TG? Tsk, tsk.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:42:56 PM
Author: FrekeChild
My problem is that I''m not coming here to be preached to. Sure, she has her heart in the *right* place, but in effect she came in here and started attacking a lot of our lifestyles. With everything she said, she''s touching on things that are none of her business.

It''s called TACT and sensitivity. Don''t come into my house and start talking smack about how I live my life. It''s NOT WELCOME. Don''t lecture me on things that you know next to nothing about. Especially when the OP can''t even follow her own advice. She obviously didn''t with hold sex until she got a ring!

Frekechild, I think she''s equating ring = engagement. We don''t know if she abstained before marriage or not (unless I missed that part).

And since she started this thread, we''re in *her* house. No one has to step foot in here if they don''t want to read or participate...

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:42:56 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Don''t come into my house and start talking smack about how I live my life. It''s NOT WELCOME.

Umm ... this isn''t your house.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:46:48 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 2/21/2008 3:42:56 PM

Author: FrekeChild

My problem is that I''m not coming here to be preached to. Sure, she has her heart in the *right* place, but in effect she came in here and started attacking a lot of our lifestyles. With everything she said, she''s touching on things that are none of her business.


It''s called TACT and sensitivity. Don''t come into my house and start talking smack about how I live my life. It''s NOT WELCOME. Don''t lecture me on things that you know next to nothing about. Especially when the OP can''t even follow her own advice. She obviously didn''t with hold sex until she got a ring!

Frekechild, I think she''s equating ring = engagement. We don''t know if she abstained before marriage or not (unless I missed that part).


And since she started this thread, we''re in *her* house. No one has to step foot in here if they don''t want to read or participate...

I know what you mean about the marriage thing. I just think her soapbox need to be of smaller size.
Good point. And with that I''m going to class.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/21/2008 3:47:24 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 2/21/2008 3:42:56 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Don''t come into my house and start talking smack about how I live my life. It''s NOT WELCOME.

Umm ... this isn''t your house.

No! It''s MY house! Take off all your shoes, you rebel rousing Americans! You''re in K-Town now!!!!!!!! (that''s short for Korea-Town).

 

[This_Is_Amore]

Date: 2/21/2008 12:28:09 PM
Author: Mediterranean

Date: 2/21/2008 10:35:38 AM
Author:Cookie_tyme

Ladies, your Grandma is right. Why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free?

....Conversely, why should *I* buy the whole PIG if all I want is a little sausage?


I think your heart may be in the right place, and I''m sure you''re sharing with us what has worked out for you, but everyone''s different, and, as they say, ''different strokes, for different folks''

My fiance and I are not farm animals, and sex isn''t some kind of bargaining chip. Sex before marriage, and living together before marriage are intensely personal decisions. They''re decisions for which no one wants to be judged, nor made to feel bad or wrong about. I''m sure plenty of people had lots of judgmental things to say when you and your husband had two children while you two were, effectively, homeless and crashing with the kids'' grandparents. But the things people say didn''t(and still don''t) matter to you because you lived your lives the way that was right for you.


The women on this board are sophisticated, intelligent, mature and loving individuals. Their treasure lies NOT between their legs, but between their EARS and behind their ribcages and the men who love them are smart enough to know that.

Their guys aren''t ''stringing them along'' because they''re ''cows'' who gave out their ''milk'' for ''free.'' They''re probably hard-working young men who want to save up enough money for a home so that the LIW''s don''t have to live with anyone''s parents for long enough to have two kids in Mom and Dad''s house, and so that our LIWs don''t have to wait 23 years for a ring.

Oh, yeah...in case you''re wondering if my man will ever propose to my free-milk-giving self? That''s my engagement ring in my avatar. Oh, yeah, and it''s 3.12 carats of diamond goodness set in platinum plus we own our own home already, so, uh....my ''milkshake'' looks like it was worth something, after all

To the LIW''s: at least you know your man wants you for your heart, not your hoo-ha.




I am so...

Mediterranean- I wish I knew you IRL, so I could buy you a drink for writing this!