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Your Honest Assessment of Very Strong Blue Fluorescence

C

Criminalmind

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Messages
15
So I've been looking for an round shape, ideal cut, colour J [as I've been told to] with very strong blue fluorescence, going in a rose gold, tulip-compass 4 claw setting. Am I crazy to be going in this direction with the very strong blue fluorescence / colour J combination ?

Carat in the 1.2-1.4 range
Based on the above, what type of clarity, depth, and table ranges should I be looking for.
What minimum clarity you would suggest in this regard, and potentially sacrificing carat.

Thanks!
 
Strong blue with a J can be a really good combination, provided the florescence is not making the stone milky or hazy. It is a really cool effect too. Provided your gal is not color sensitive, a J is fine. If that is unknown, G or H is safer.

If you set "eye clean" on clarity as a parameter, you are pretty good to get started. I personally avoid black/green inclusion in the table. Others, don't worry too much about them. So, PSer usually search down to SI1 and they will walk you through any inclusions they see.

What is your budget for the stone (assuming $1500 for the setting you described)?

For a round, the below numbers represent the ranges for Ideal/Excellent diamonds. The numbers in parenthesis are more strict. You can read these off the GIA or AGS certification.

table - 54-58%
depth 60-62.3%
crown 34-35 degrees
pavilion 40.6 - 41 degrees

Lower crown pairs better with higher pavilion and vice versa (34 w/41 pav and 35 w/40.6 pav)
 
Budget for the stone only is $7000

could you explain what you mean by a G or H colour is safer, as I thought the point of going to the J colour was to help/accentuate the very blue fluro.

currently looking at these 4 .. all being ideal cut, round, very strong blue fluro, excellent polish/symmetry, 1.25-1.30 carat ranges

1 = J, vvs1, 62.7 depth, 56.0 table, Girdle med-med
2 = J, vvs1, 62.8 depth 57.0 table, Girdle Med-Sli Thick
3 = J, vs1, 62.4 depth, 58.0 table, girdle Sli Thick-Sli Thick
4 = I, si2, 62.9 depth, 57.0 table, girdle med-sli thick
 
OP it's the other way around, fluorescence can help mask the warmer color in a lower color grade stone like a J. From what I understand this will only be in certain lighting where there is lots of UV around. Some people like the look of a warmer stone in rose gold.
I can't find it now but someone recently posted a photo of a very strong blue fluorescent stone and the blue was quite marked in that lighting. At very strong blue it might positively glow blue for example out in sunlight. Would that bother you? Some people like this effect, others don't.
 
Personally, I love the strong blue, provided of course that it is not an overblue.

The market, however, is brutal for them. The diamonds with strong to very strong blue will sell at a strong discount and the resale of them is extremely difficult. If you are never going to need to sell the diamond, which most never intend to need, it can be a bigger diamond at a lower price.

However, should you ever need to sell it for any reason, such as the health of a spouse or child, that is a horrible time to find out you have made a dreadful error.

Just my thoughts.

Wink
 
Wink said:
Personally, I love the strong blue, provided of course that it is not an overblue.

The market, however, is brutal for them. The diamonds with strong to very strong blue will sell at a strong discount and the resale of them is extremely difficult. If you are never going to need to sell the diamond, which most never intend to need, it can be a bigger diamond at a lower price.

However, should you ever need to sell it for any reason, such as the health of a spouse or child, that is a horrible time to find out you have made a dreadful error.

Just my thoughts.

Wink
Click to expand...
This is where vendor policies can come into play.
A buy back policy from a good vendor sets the min. price you can get for it.
There is always a chance of something happening to the vendor of course and that not being available.
 
Criminalmind said:
Budget for the stone only is $7000

could you explain what you mean by a G or H colour is safer, as I thought the point of going to the J colour was to help/accentuate the very blue fluro.

currently looking at these 4 .. all being ideal cut, round, very strong blue fluro, excellent polish/symmetry, 1.25-1.30 carat ranges

1 = J, vvs1, 62.7 depth, 56.0 table, Girdle med-med
2 = J, vvs1, 62.8 depth 57.0 table, Girdle Med-Sli Thick
3 = J, vs1, 62.4 depth, 58.0 table, girdle Sli Thick-Sli Thick
4 = I, si2, 62.9 depth, 57.0 table, girdle med-sli thick
Click to expand...
Can you link to the stones online?
 
I have a J with very strong blue. I love it!
When it was loose I could see color with it flipped upside down. Once it was set I almost never notice - it faces up very white to me. It's cut more to 60/60 ideal proportions & the price was a steal. I do not notice any negative from the strong blue... even strangers have stopped & complimented my ring. Now, I don't plan on ever trading or upgrading so the VSB had no impact on that part of our decision making. You can see pictures of my ring here:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...k-morrell-engagment-ring.230778/#post-4156365
 
@Wink what is an overblue? Is that a term or just another word for very strong Blue? Also thank you for the prospective of future resale value.

@ratatat .... So going to a better colour won't negatively affect the very blue fluorescence, which I was under the impression going higher then J color would.

Based on this I might reassess and increase color and drop clarity.
 
Kbell said:
I have a J with very strong blue. I love it!
When it was loose I could see color with it flipped upside down. Once it was set I almost never notice - it faces up very white to me. It's cut more to 60/60 ideal proportions & the price was a steal. I do not notice any negative from the strong blue... even strangers have stopped & complimented my ring. Now, I don't plan on ever trading or upgrading so the VSB had no impact on that part of our decision making. You can see pictures of my ring here:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...k-morrell-engagment-ring.230778/#post-4156365
Click to expand...

Very beautiful ring I must say!
Does it show blue often (%??) What is the lighting conditions needed for it to go Blue? Indoor? Outdoor? Direct hard sunlight?
 
IMG_7293.JPG IMG_7291.JPG
Criminalmind said:
Very beautiful ring I must say!
Does it show blue often (%??) What is the lighting conditions needed for it to go Blue? Indoor? Outdoor? Direct hard sunlight?
Click to expand...
In direct sunlight it will look blue - I'm outside now (ring is dirty sorry) but the blue pic is direct sunlight, the other shaded (colors reflecting from trees above).
 
IMHO, mostly based on observation of loads of old cuts and 60/60 diamonds, diamonds with D, E, and F color can look hazy with Strong Fluorescence. They lack enough body color to offset the blue. For a Strong Fluorescent stone, G, H, I and J are fine.

Not sure of your budget, but here are a few nice options to give you some visuals.

These you would want an ASET or IS (if ASET not available) & need to ask of Flour is making the stone hazy or milky.
{60/60, 1.3 H VS1 more white light return than fire; but its cut gives great spread at 7.13 mm; this stone would quality for an AGS Excellent on cut. But, if you compare this stone to LD08985812 (both below), you'll see how it tends to have a flatter top, so some PSers would not recommend it. But, I think this might come back with good performance and you get great size with the flour. Maybe @Rockdiamond will chime in on 60/60 type stones).

60/60
upload_2017-9-10_11-25-22.png

LD08985812
upload_2017-9-10_11-26-4.png
 
Wink said:
The market, however, is brutal for them. The diamonds with strong to very strong blue will sell at a strong discount and the resale of them is extremely difficult.
Click to expand...

I see this written a lot, not just for blue fluro but for any other possible defect (poor cut, poor color, inclusions, etc). Often it comes in the context of "if you buy that stone, and have to resell it, you'll only get 30% of what you paid." I'm not sure why this would be the case.

For example, let's take two hypothetical stones.

One's a D IF, the other is a M I1. Both of them are listed on an online drop shipper for 7,000. The reason is, of course, the M I1 is significantly bigger.

So if they're both listed for 7,000 then most likely they have the same Rapnet price (correct me if I'm wrong here), which let's just say is 5,000.

Now, if our hypothetical customer were to buy either of these stones, and then try to resell it later to a B&M jeweler without having any kind of upgrade or buy-back policy with them, there's no reason why the B&M jeweler will offer more than Rapnet price. So the maximum the customer would get is 5,000. But most likely, given it's a B&M jeweler, they'll be offered a lowball, for either stone.

But... our customer could instead offer someone 750 dollars to get the stone recerted and listed on Rapnet. Then, let's say in order to achieve a quick sale they discount the stone an additional 5% under prevaling prices, so they list at 4,750. So grand total, the customer gets 4,000. That's 60% of what they paid for. Not fantastic, but double what other people are saying.

So I don't see why the customer should get more in resale for the D IF vs. the M I1, because the path to maximum recoupement is the same. Maybe D IFs will move faster (more liquid market?) so they can list at a lower discount on Rapnet? But I kind of doubt that. D IFs are by their nature rarer, so fewer of them should be sold and bought in general right?
 
Really great post HDer
Any consumer that needs to sell a diamond for cash is in a weak position.
Using your example it might be a lot easier to sell a 3ct imperfect stone than a 1.00ct D/IF if the recovery number was equal on both.

Or, if we compare a $7000 inert stone to a strong blue one with the same weight color and which cost them $5500
They have $1500 less to recover.

In terms of colorless DEF stones with strong blue- IMO they can be super supper amazing. I don't think you're likely to find a higher %of "sleepy" SB stones in D as compared to J color. But I've never done a statistical survey.
 
Thank you for everyone's thoughts.
As a non-expert, I'm also thinking the % you would hypothetically get back is similar for each diamond, though you might have to wait varying times, if yours is in less demand.

Thinking about what yall said, I moved to I colours [whats the main impact?], but varying clarity/depth/table/fluro. Listed in order of lowest to highest $$. Still going with Rose Gold band.

https://www.bluenile.com/ca/build-your-own-ring/diamond-details/LD08348348
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/build-your-own-ring/diamond-details/LD08987219
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/build-your-own-ring/diamond-details/LD09336262
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/build-your-own-ring/diamond-details/LD09293325
 
Your last pick is a beautiful diamond: https://www.bluenile.com/ca/build-y...293325?track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab

I would be very cautious about purchasing a diamond without a video/pictures and especially with fluorescence.

The first one has a nice cut, but crystal inclusions on table based on the report, so that would be a no for me.
The second one doesn't have complimentary angles and it has a cavity inclusion that would be a no for me as well. It also has a very strong flouro, insoild be a little careful there. Very strong blue will almost always activate very obviously when exposed to UV light. It has a different appearance even when compared to strong blue flouro.
The third one doesn't have GIA available on the site.
None of them have pictures.
 
Strong blues sell at a discount, and in the secondary market it’s an even steeper discount. The big variable is that this is not carved in stone. Not too long ago, ‘blue white’ sold at a premium. Fluorescence was a feature, not a problem. Mostly it was the Internet age of selling off of lab reports that made it into a negative. What will the future bring? None of us know, but fashion trends are sure to be different.

It’s also worth noting that SB’s generally sell slower because they’re less popular. ‘Popular’ isn’t a synonym for ‘better’, but it’s an important issue for dealers. They want to spend their inventory dollars on things that move quickly, and if they anticipate trouble they will bid less.
 
denverappraiser said:
Strong blues sell at a discount, and in the secondary market it’s an even steeper discount. The big variable is that this is not carved in stone. Not too long ago, ‘blue white’ sold at a premium. Fluorescence was a feature, not a problem. Mostly it was the Internet age of selling off of lab reports that made it into a negative. What will the future bring? None of us know, but fashion trends are sure to be different.

It’s also worth noting that SB’s generally sell slower because they’re less popular. ‘Popular’ isn’t a synonym for ‘better’, but it’s an important issue for dealers. They want to spend their inventory dollars on things that move quickly, and if they anticipate trouble they will bid less.
Click to expand...

I can understand that tying up inventory dollars would be a major consideration for dealers.

What stone category would you say has the fastest turnarounds? G-I no fluor VS 3EX?

Would a D VVS/IF stone also be harder to sell for a dealer? Do super ideals also have the same problem in maintaining resale value?

Just curious because I only ever hear about "hard to resell" when it's on the cheaper end of the spectrum and not on the expensive end.
 
Thanks:
I am waiting for a custom setting quotation, so I'm trying to looking at smaller carat options, depending on the setting quotation, could work out since her ring size is around 4.5. I have viewed some depth/crown/table/pavilion combinations and

Are there any drawbacks with these 2?
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09276369 (1.0)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09350039 (1.12)

(previously recommended above)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09293325 (1.23)
 
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HDer said:
What stone category would you say has the fastest turnarounds? G-I no fluor VS 3EX?

Would a D VVS/IF stone also be harder to sell for a dealer? Do super ideals also have the same problem in maintaining resale value?
Click to expand...
Yep, that's the sweet spot at the moment. In sizes just under the popular carat marks (0.9xc, 1.4x, 1.9x), with GIA paperwork to back it up. This can and will change without notice.

D/IFs are hard because they're generally so expensive. Dealers don't like them because they're tying up a lot of money and consumers don't buy them (on the secondary market) because of the inherent risks. In terms of resale, that drives down prices. I do not agree with the statement that higher grades make for better investments, even when we're talking about the very bottom of the barrel. I2/O-Ps have their market too, as long as you didn't overpay in the first place.

Dealers mostly do just fine with 'super ideals', but whether you can recover your premium and how much of it depends on how much you paid and how good you are at selling things. Those are not gemological properties.

In general, I find the resale problem has to do with the entire market although the details are different depending on what you have. People wish it were an easy question and it's simply not the case. Then again, the complexities here are a lot of what keeps me in business. :bigsmile:

In defense of jewelers, the resale market for diamonds is better than it is on nearly everything else you buy. I discourage people from thinking of them as financial instruments but just try and sell a fur, a piece of electronics, an article of clothing, food, or just about anything else you buy and see how it works out.
 
I think my experience will be different than Neil's mainly due to geography.
Here in the NYC diamond district, it's really about price.
Any stone has a "market value" and as long as it's a fraction of that, you can find an immediate buyer.
Don't forget that "sweet spot" stones, being the most actively traded, will sell at some of the lowest margins- which makes that O-P I1 more attractive to many sellers.
In general, my experience regarding consumers needing to sell here, it makes little difference what the grade is, as long as the selling price is far below market.


I do agree with the part about diamonds holding value better than other things consumers buy.
I also think Neil and I are in total agreement that considering a diamond a financial instrument is a losing strategy.
 
post: 4214332 said:
But, I think this might come back with good performance and you get great size with the flour. Maybe @Rockdiamond will chime in on 60/60 type stones).
Click to expand...

HI Rocky!
I do not feel that the make will affect how the fluorescence affects the visuals. It's truly a case by case thing....
 
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09276369 (1.0) -- not great angle combinations. No for me (CAD $5330)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09350039 (1.12) --not great angle combinations. No for me (CAD $6127)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09293325 (1.23) -- beautiful
(CAD $7285)

How about these instead of #1 or #2?
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09310407 (1.17 VS1 J, Strong Blue;CAD $5967, 6.71 mm)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD08916586 (1.06 VVS2 J, Strong Blue; CAD $5917, 6.53 mm)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09338351 (1.00 J VS2, Strong Blue; CAD $5099; 6.47 mm)
Once you narrow your selections, you'll want to put the diamonds on hold and ask for a ASET or IS (if they don't give ASET).

From JA
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2641315 (1.09 J VVS1, 6.57 mm}
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...j-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2568960 (1.09 VS2, 6.61 mm}


Rockdiamond said:
HI Rocky!
I do not feel that the make will affect how the fluorescence affects the visuals. It's truly a case by case thing....
Click to expand...
My question was poorly written. I want hoping you'd chime in on the proportions that make a good 60/60.
 
rockysalamander said:
My question was poorly written. I want hoping you'd chime in on the proportions that make a good 60/60.
Click to expand...
]
Nah, I'm sure it was poorly read by me:)

Rocky- I don't buy using the numbers- so I don't have a list of favored CA/PA. For me, it's all a hands on deal.....
 
I put this one on hold today:
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09310407 (1.17 VS1 J, Strong Blue, 6.71 mm)

But I'm looking for options without the blue, I'm hesitating on how blue the rock will show in normal lighting. Size is confirmed at 4 and its going to be in a rose gold floral halo setting ($2K CDN)

Main difference of these 3 below is that they have no fluro (in relation to the one on hold)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD09081564
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD08120955
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/diamond-details/LD08749825

Thoughts on the 3 above (in relation to the blue above)? I know that I definitely prefer the blue though (as I prefer to be moreso unique)
 
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I really don't think a J+flour is a problematic choice as the flour may help the stone look a bit whiter under certain conditions (bright light with UV). But, the real question raised from PS was is a J going to be too tinted for her (flour or no). You are still looking for a J which will have noticeable tint from the side.

If you have no sense of how color sensitive she is, I would recommend you stay at H or higher as most people start to see color in I or J. In a super-ideal, you can probably go to a I and maybe a J, but not in the average "ideal" cut.

If you no longer require florescence, then hang tight whilst folks look again. Can you confirm I've summarized your needs below correctly?

Budget (diamond) $7500 CAD
Size 1.2-1.4
Clarity: Eyeclean
Color: H or higher (I maybe with super-ideal)
Want to stay with BN as vendor
Setting: rose gold halo
 
Thanks for the reply:

Diamond budget changed to $6-7K (ish) CAD
Size: 1.10-1.20
Clarity: Eyeclean
Colour J or higher (thought I don't know her colour sensitivity)
Preference for BN, as I really like this setting (to be done in rose gold halo). ($2k)
https://www.bluenile.com/ca/build-y...ngagement-ring_62758?elem=title&track=product

Question:
As the J+strong flouro will masq some of the blue in normal conditions, then that's a positive. So I'm guessing the masqing effect will be lower in the H or I colours. Another reason the J colour held more weight with me is because the rose gold setting would slightly bleed rose colour into the diamond (am I correct in saying that), so going with H & I would negate the colour gains? It sounds like I'm trying to maximum 2 curves on a graph: 1) best colour to potential masq max blue fluro (under normal conditions) and 2) best value colour to pair with a rose gold setting where that rose colour will ultimately be seen in the diamond a little bit.... If I'm correct in saying this, then it sounds like J/I colour is the optimal balance between the two colour effects.
 
Another tidbit of information I thought of:

This new setting (BN stock #62758,,) has halo/claw & pave stones of H/SI2 ... so perhaps I should be going with the H colour since it will be directly surrounded by H stones. Going to be problematic to up the colour by 2 grades and come within fair budget accommodating for $2K setting. I'll give it a go. Researching all this little bites of what maximizes fire and what maximizes brilliance is interesting. Gonna be quite a story I'll get to tell the lady one day.
 
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Criminalmind said:
Question:
As the J+strong flouro will masq some of the blue in normal conditions, then that's a positive.
Click to expand...
I think you’ve still got it around the wrong way - the benefit of fluoro in a J is its potential to mask the J colour - since the tint is yellow, the blue fluoro counters that more or less (depending on the degree of fluoro and whether it’s in conditions that activate it).
You may not always be in conditions which activate the fluoro - when you’re not, you’ll have a J coloured diamond. In rose gold that may not be an issue but if you’re putting whiter melee next to it, it would likely look tinted simply because you’re putting a contrast close to it. You may be safer going to I if the melee is H. Any chance of I/J melee instead of H in the halo?
 
Tiny melee is probably going to look whiter whether it is H or I, so I wouldn't worry about that. I'd probably go with an I color diamond. But J may be okay in rose gold. I am not fond of settings with SI2 clarity melee, though. That would concern me.

But, has she shown you settings she likes like the one you have chosen? And also, does she specifically want rose gold?
 
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