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Your opinion on Native Cuts stones

Date: 5/24/2010 7:40:16 PM
Author: iLander



Hey Tourmaline Lover: Nice tesseract, does that mean you prefer your gems cut in four dimensions?


LOL
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Now can any of the laps do a hyperspace-asscher? LOL!
 
Date: 5/24/2010 10:21:42 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
Quality and pride in one''s work is not location specific.
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Okay, you''ve got me there. Excellent point. Superb craftsmen are everywhere, doing qll kinds of things all over the world.

Maybe this thread should be "stones produced in a factory setting with little care versus stones custom designed and cut by highly skilled, artistic craftsmen" or something like that. Kind of like food crafted by a chef versus food heated by a teenager. (I didn''t use the word artist in either description because artist is an overused word in this society. Ex: Subway advertises for "sandwich artists".)

But, I think we can all agree that even with a constant diet of nouveau cuisine, the occasional big mac still hits the spot.

Maybe none of us is for or against any specific "type" of cut. Maybe we just All dislike sloppy, poorly designed stones.

But to take it further: Is "native cut" just a misnomer, a marketing tool? I seriously doubt there are many "natives" (the pitiful stories of Indian children cutting diamond melee aside), I think a lot of stones are cut by guys that show up at work with a lunch box. They do some Tai Chi, cut their quota of stones and then go home when the whistle blows.

Tourmaline Lover: ROFL
 
Date: 5/24/2010 4:45:59 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
Much of the cutting is done in China and India, in assembly line type cutting.


One person preforms, one dops, one cuts the pavilion etc.


I know a guy who owns a Chinese cutting house, in an 8 hour shift each person works on 30 stones minimum. In 8 hours I could cut 2 stones, maybe 3 if they were simple designs like a round. I''m working on an emerald right now that I have spent hours just deciding how I''ll dop it.


Question for ''LovingDiamonds''. You stated: ''If I have two gemstones, exactly the same carat weight, the same shape but one is a ''native'' cut and the other precision cut, which will I buy? The one with the best colour.''


What if the color was the same, then which one would you buy?


What if the color was the same, the shape the same, the price the same, but the native cut weighed a bit more, the precision cut had more sparkle and flash, then which would you buy?
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Gene, will you be posting this emerald in your blog?

I''d love to see it. I purchased a small emerald from Precision Gem last year, and I have yet to see another emerald of such beautiful color, let alone with a precision cut and a faceted girdle. I am really looking forward to seeing your new emerald!
 
Yes, I too would like to see Gene''s emerald-LOL
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hmm... I'm just going to post my opinions for what they're worth.

I like gems. Why? Cuz they're pretty, sparkly, and come in different colours so I can switch them with my mood at the time. Some I like cuz they affect my mood. I'm not a "specimen" collector.

I like "different" looking gems, not mass produced items I can buy from large chains. I also like quality and to me quality is in the details.

I think native cuts look all the same to me, and are cut for their weight retention not the inherent beauty and individual qualities of the stone (such the actual crystaline structure of a gem). To me, these are mass produced stones. Cut as much as you can with as much weight as you can for the most profit. Hence the windows (IMHO=ugh).

Precision stones are an art form to me. You have to understand the nature of the stone to showcase it to its maximum beauty. Some of the individual traits of a stone wouldn't even be noticable except for the cutting (say, bringing out colour zoning in an amazing pattern). A diamond is a gem too, but for some reason we don't put them in the same category as other gems, but expect them to be precision cut? Doesn't make sense to me. I also like well cut cabs, which requires studying the rough to get the best part of it, and wasting the rest. Again, native cut cabs are just cut for weight.

SO, hands down, precision cuts for me. They can also make the difference in the colour of the stone, making it go from ordinary to extraordinary.
 
Melpomene said:
hmm... I'm just going to post my opinions for what they're worth.

I like gems. Why? Cuz they're pretty, sparkly, and come in different colours so I can switch them with my mood at the time. Some I like cuz they affect my mood. I'm not a "specimen" collector.

I like "different" looking gems, not mass produced items I can buy from large chains. I also like quality and to me quality is in the details.

I think native cuts look all the same to me, and are cut for their weight retention not the inherent beauty and individual qualities of the stone (such the actual crystaline structure of a gem). To me, these are mass produced stones. Cut as much as you can with as much weight as you can for the most profit. Hence the windows (IMHO=ugh).

Precision stones are an art form to me. You have to understand the nature of the stone to showcase it to its maximum beauty. Some of the individual traits of a stone wouldn't even be noticable except for the cutting (say, bringing out colour zoning in an amazing pattern). A diamond is a gem too, but for some reason we don't put them in the same category as other gems, but expect them to be precision cut? Doesn't make sense to me. I also like well cut cabs, which requires studying the rough to get the best part of it, and wasting the rest. Again, native cut cabs are just cut for weight.

SO, hands down, precision cuts for me. They can also make the difference in the colour of the stone, making it go from ordinary to extraordinary.
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I apologise but I have to disagree. Colour can be affected by ANY cut - native or precision. A precision cut does not necessary mean better colour. Before PS changed to it's new format there were a number of old threads that showed native cut gemstones that had been recut where colour had been adversely affected. One poor posted hated the colour of his/her recut (and I had to agree after seeing the photos).
 
Well, I think the important thing to remember here is what is the goal. The goal for 'native cut' / commercial stones is to maximize the weight return so the dealer can get the highest price when he sells it. So, your paying 15-30% more for a stone that is not cut to maximize optical performance. Typically the crown angles on native sapphires for example, run 19-23 degrees, and have about 10-15% of the depth of the stone on the crown. You don't get much sparkle or light flash out of it. The pavilions are cut with bulging sides to increase weight. The lower pavilion/culet facets sometimes go as low as 24 degrees, below even the critical angle of diamond, hence windowing. One trick that is used is to offset the culet to one side to try and avoid windowing. The bottom line is that your paying more for nothing and getting less in performance. It also causes a lot more weight loss when cutting them correctly.

Any of the precision cutters can tack Portuguese style step facets on a pavilion. That's the flash you see in your commercial stones. It's not coming in large part from the crown.

Another factor to consider is that each stone has it's 'sweet spot' in terms of design. You don't want an emerald to flash like a diamond.. you want it to glow and tease you with the color highlights. Glowing body color is the key here. On the other hand, you want your zircon, garnet or sphene to give you a rainbow of color and lots of light play. These factors are what influence a precision cutter. I use computer modeling where I run the stone through a combination of 100 pavilion/crown angle combinations. I set it up to optimize what I want, for aqua it's light return and tilt, for garnets it's dispersion and sparkle. Then it models the design for me and I chose the angles that will give the best optical performance for the end result I want. That's what I then cut. I have seen crimes against nature perpetuated on beautiful stones because someone wanted to make a buck on it, rather than make it gorgeous.

The difference between a 14k polish and a 200k polish is really amazing in the quality and look of the stone. So that's why we use the higher grade.

All of the precision faceters here will not compromise optical performance and beauty just so they can make an extra carat or two on the sale. Of course, if you want a galleon style fat belly, ticky tacks on the pavilion and a very thin crown, we'll do it for you.. I just don't think that's the best use of the rough material.
 
Gene,

Native cut is pretty much a pejorative term. If you have seen or worked with the cutters in India, Thailand, Burma, Colombia, you will see lots of jam-pegs and not a few no-pegs.

In Mogok, Burma I have seen foot treadle machines built from old sewing machines, using buffalo horns that are drilled out with the indexes cut into the side of the horn (I believe I showed it to you) and have watched cutters make perfect "precision" stones. Most of the time poor cutting is conscious and it is all about weight retention. On my last trip to Bangkok I saw a 16 carat piece of ruby rough intentionally cut into a highly windowed eight carat. Who would have precision cut it given a 5 carat potential yield. Would you have cut that five carat?

Other than Japan and to some extent the U. S. there is not such a big premium on well cut stones. Particularly if we are talking about the big three. Colombia's best cutter intentionally cuts windows. He believes the stone is prettier with one and so it goes. It's all about what the market will accept.
 
Richard,
Being an engineer, and precise, of course I would have done a "precision cut" on the stone and ended up with a smaller stone. I would have ended up with a 5.21 ct stone, and you would have purchased it, had I not "burned" all over the internet first. You would have proudly displayed it as the worlds only precision cut, no window perfectly polished ruby, and then sold it to a loving home.
 
That is something I've always wondered about - isn't there a premium paid for well cut stones? I understand that in that example its a huge drop in ct wt, but are there folks who'd rather have a much larger, perhaps wonky cut stone just because its larger?
 
Lordy, are we back on this again?

I thought I'd settled it :lol:

The short version, for those of you that arrived late: some "natives" cut very beautiful stones, but that is the exception, not the rule. Some "native cut" stones are actually factory cut. Factory cut stones are generally cut to maximize weight. Precision cutters maximize the brilliance and the beauty of the stone, not necessarily the weight.

The Point We All Agree On: We all hate ugly stones, no matter who cuts them. :appl:
 
jleb said:
Well, I think the important thing to remember here is what is the goal. The goal for 'native cut' / commercial stones is to maximize the weight return so the dealer can get the highest price when he sells it. So, your paying 15-30% more for a stone that is not cut to maximize optical performance. Typically the crown angles on native sapphires for example, run 19-23 degrees, and have about 10-15% of the depth of the stone on the crown. You don't get much sparkle or light flash out of it. The pavilions are cut with bulging sides to increase weight. The lower pavilion/culet facets sometimes go as low as 24 degrees, below even the critical angle of diamond, hence windowing. One trick that is used is to offset the culet to one side to try and avoid windowing. The bottom line is that your paying more for nothing and getting less in performance. It also causes a lot more weight loss when cutting them correctly.

Any of the precision cutters can tack Portuguese style step facets on a pavilion. That's the flash you see in your commercial stones. It's not coming in large part from the crown.

Another factor to consider is that each stone has it's 'sweet spot' in terms of design. You don't want an emerald to flash like a diamond.. you want it to glow and tease you with the color highlights. Glowing body color is the key here. On the other hand, you want your zircon, garnet or sphene to give you a rainbow of color and lots of light play. These factors are what influence a precision cutter. I use computer modeling where I run the stone through a combination of 100 pavilion/crown angle combinations. I set it up to optimize what I want, for aqua it's light return and tilt, for garnets it's dispersion and sparkle. Then it models the design for me and I chose the angles that will give the best optical performance for the end result I want. That's what I then cut. I have seen crimes against nature perpetuated on beautiful stones because someone wanted to make a buck on it, rather than make it gorgeous.

The difference between a 14k polish and a 200k polish is really amazing in the quality and look of the stone. So that's why we use the higher grade.
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Thank-you great post! I especially appreciate the detail you have given on the pavilion angles. It seems intuitive to me if the upper tier of pavilion facets is steep to save weight you will either have a really deep stone or have to cut the bottom tier way too shallow to get a centre culet.

Curious what software do you use? how do you optimize for both dispersion and scintillation? In diamonds the two properties are often a tradeoff.
 
MinBijoux,

Sorry if I slaughtered your handle! In the case of the ruby Gene and I have been bantering about, the answer is yes and the difference could be seven figures. Due to extreme rarity, the price differential between a 5-8 carat ruby is dramatic. If the stone was Burmese in somewhere north of 5 million.

I will often pay a premium for a particularly finely cut gem and in the U. S. at least, you can sell such a stone at a premium. According to my sources, Europeans are more old fashioned and prefer a large stone to a smaller one and will buy what is called a flat stone, with a large window.

Eventually, I believe, finely cut stones will command a premium in all markets. So for a long term investment, pick for cut!

Best,
 
Richard W. Wise said:
MinBijoux,
According to my sources, Europeans are more old fashioned and prefer a large stone to a smaller one and will buy what is called a flat stone, with a large window.

Best,
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Unfortunately, at least in Helsinki, Finland, this is true. Personally I always wince, seeing an exceptionally well made piece of jewelry with a nice big stone that sports a huge window.
 
jleb said:
Well, I think the important thing to remember here is what is the goal. The goal for 'native cut' / commercial stones is to maximize the weight return so the dealer can get the highest price when he sells it. So, your paying 15-30% more for a stone that is not cut to maximize optical performance. Typically the crown angles on native sapphires for example, run 19-23 degrees, and have about 10-15% of the depth of the stone on the crown. You don't get much sparkle or light flash out of it. The pavilions are cut with bulging sides to increase weight. The lower pavilion/culet facets sometimes go as low as 24 degrees, below even the critical angle of diamond, hence windowing. One trick that is used is to offset the culet to one side to try and avoid windowing. The bottom line is that your paying more for nothing and getting less in performance. It also causes a lot more weight loss when cutting them correctly.

Any of the precision cutters can tack Portuguese style step facets on a pavilion. That's the flash you see in your commercial stones. It's not coming in large part from the crown.

Another factor to consider is that each stone has it's 'sweet spot' in terms of design. You don't want an emerald to flash like a diamond.. you want it to glow and tease you with the color highlights. Glowing body color is the key here. On the other hand, you want your zircon, garnet or sphene to give you a rainbow of color and lots of light play. These factors are what influence a precision cutter. I use computer modeling where I run the stone through a combination of 100 pavilion/crown angle combinations. I set it up to optimize what I want, for aqua it's light return and tilt, for garnets it's dispersion and sparkle. Then it models the design for me and I chose the angles that will give the best optical performance for the end result I want. That's what I then cut. I have seen crimes against nature perpetuated on beautiful stones because someone wanted to make a buck on it, rather than make it gorgeous.

The difference between a 14k polish and a 200k polish is really amazing in the quality and look of the stone. So that's why we use the higher grade.

All of the precision faceters here will not compromise optical performance and beauty just so they can make an extra carat or two on the sale. Of course, if you want a galleon style fat belly, ticky tacks on the pavilion and a very thin crown, we'll do it for you.. I just don't think that's the best use of the rough material.
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Well Said :appl:

In a precision cut the stone is considered as an individual piece. Commercial cutting is an assembly line process where weight and speed are the most important factors. I know that many commercial cutters are capable of producing a precision cut stone but don't have the time or economic reason to do so.

Color is a factor but remember that there a 3 other C's to consider when looking at a stone. Cut can intesify the color, increase the dispersion, get rid of windows and generally make for a more attractive and marketable finished gemstone.

Pete
 
Edward Bristol said:
Why is this forum is called "colored-stones" and not "cut-stones"? Because color is king. Period.
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If it's all about color, and then size, why even bother cutting the stone at all?

I think it's all about beauty. A well cut stone is always more beautiful than a poorly cut one.
 
Precision cut gemstones do NOT always equal beauty.

Native cut gemstones do NOT always equal ugliness.

There are good and bad with both. There is no right or wrong answer.
 
Richard W. Wise said:
Colombia's best cutter intentionally cuts windows. He believes the stone is prettier with one and so it goes. It's all about what the market will accept.
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:o :eek: :o :| :blackeye: :(( :errrr: ;(

once again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....and in this case its in the eye of the cutter holding the rough and the cutting tools. made me gasp when i read it.

MoZo
 
I like a good cut but it is hard to find good-quality material + precision cut. And even precision cutters would sometimes step back from their standards when cutting a very good stone. Retaining weight is very good but what is someone has an excellent quality untreated emerald rough? Wold a person try to retain all the weight or aim at the "perfect" cut and end up with a 1-ct stone instead of 2-cts? And would I insist on a perfect cut or buy a 2-ct stone? The cut of my alexandrite is very far from ideal, but I have posted photos here, it is a Brazilian stone with a 100% color shift. Would I like a better cut? Certainly. Is it easy to find a stone just below 3-ct which turns raspberry-red in incandescent light? Ha!

Also, as I have noticed, sometimes precision cut masks seriouse flaws in the stone. It is more difficult to notice (and I don't mean see, rather, forgive) frank or brown modifiers in a stone with very bright cut. A very included stone may still look great if it is cut in the right way.

I just bought a stone with the cut described as "Portuguese". It is slightly windowed and by my definition, has been cut by a native. But I am not going to send it back because it is a magnificent stone.

Sorry for chiming in, I am yet educating myself, but I have bought from Gene, and Dana, and Lisa, and Bob Kast, and from Gary, and from Jeff Wise. I also bought a stone cut by George. I am not mentioning other famied precision cutters or well-known vendors. This being said, I probably spent less money than last year because PS educated me about buying cheaper. I also called Richard about an alexandrite and, God willing, may buy something from him, so as the end consumer, I probably have the right to express my opinion.

TL - remember, the fourth dimension is time... A huge fourth dimension would dramatically increase the price of any natural stone, so I'd recut! :lol:
 
On any given stone, I want to cut both the most beautiful and the most valuable stone I can from the material. While I will never cut anything with a 'window' I will certainly make choices about design - and in particular facet meets - that give me the best possible return on a valuable gem.

I've seen some guys sitting around in developing world shops who cut very, very beautiful gems indeed on jam pegs, and seem some "precision cutters" waste carats of material to maximize light return while sacrificing colour and tilt.

It all comes down to the stone. It better be pretty.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com
 
Hi All,

I would just like to point out an observation. How come PS has so many cutters on here. This is definitely something fairly new. I think its fine and good , but I think your perspective is certainly somewhat biased.

I like Antoinette Matlins books. I have learned more from her books then any other. She says, about colored stones, the cut should only be 20% of the value of the stone. Color, treatments seem more important. Recently, cut has almost become primary on here. Most of you are sellings stones so, of course you would say precision cutting is best. I like native cuts without windows. I just never paid that much attention to cut.

I love the portugeuse SP cut. It makes the stone so bright.

I will take the leap and suggest to all readers keep in mind that % value for the cut. I think she's right.


Thanks,
Annette
 
Annette,

But a horrible cut with a huge window may drain all the color out of a stone. I have an old citrine cut with such a window. A good cut often improves the color, so its input into the final cost may be over 20%. And some windows can not be covered in settings.

I do not like when people charge a premium for a good cut on cheap material, but with excellent material, they, really, should!
 
crasru said:
Annette,

But a horrible cut with a huge window may drain all the color out of a stone. I have an old citrine cut with such a window. A good cut often improves the color, so its input into the final cost may be over 20%. And some windows can not be covered in settings.

I do not like when people charge a premium for a good cut on cheap material, but with excellent material, they, really, should!
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Not always Crasru. Look at the two Paraiba Tourmalines I've just had set. Both are "native" cuts, one with a HUGE window. The colour on both gems is phenomenal. I'd rather have something like these than not having them at all. They are beyond beautiful. Would they have looked better with a more precise cut? Probably but they haven't so it's either accept and love them as they are or don't buy them. It's no contest!

With some gems if you put cut over everything else you'll end up searching for many many years to get the right one for you.

Smit - totally agree with you about what's important!!
 
crasru said:
Annette,
A good cut often improves the color, so its input into the final cost may be over 20%.
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If you recut a stone, you can always lose saturation. I recut a cuprian with the most horrible cut imaginable, and a huge window. It's cut beautifully now, but it did lose a little saturation.
 
Hi,

Crasru, Yes of course you may pay more for an excellent cut on a top gemstone. Matlin always allows some price variations in what she says. A very, very fine stone with good color will always command more. If there is good cut, I'm sure it will be more.We do not disagree.

LD you are so right about your stones. Your ring is in competion with MZ spessertite as my favorite ring on PS I think MZ's ring has imprinted itself on my brain because this was the first Wow Ring I encountered on PS I have refused until now to consider a contender.
Its too unbelieveably gorgeous.

Now, I don't want others to think I don't love their rings, but these are too stunning for my particular brain.


Annette
 
Personally, I enjoy reading input both from consumers and from individuals who are in the trade. The perspectives may vary, but it's always interesting and educational. As a consumer, I like having an idea how the vendors I have either bought from in the past, or may buy from in the future, think about gemstones, and how they approach their craft.
 
Can someone, please, post links to LD's paraibas (I know it is a new post but for a certain reason can not search back today) and, please, please, someone, post a link to MZ's stone? It must have been a while ago, I totally missed it. Thanks!
 
Well, LD and MZ, I am not even going to discuss windows. All I can say is that both of you got some fantastic stones. Just no comments. Befitting real ladies like both of you are... Thank you for the links, LD. I enjoyed them very much. While technically some of your stones have windows, they are not "patio doors" like you claimed because they do not distract from the color at all. It is just all color. I doubt you can read through such windows.
 
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