30yearsofdiamonds what is your deal with Fluorescence???

[pyramid]

You all know I'm direct. So here it is:

Laila, Pyramid, and Junebug--- Complaining about things is easy. You are more than welcome to actually start HELPING on RT regularly-- day in and day out--and affect the change you'd like to see.

Personally I don't find complaining about what others do credible and I don't respect it especially when none of you help out on RT regularly except to ditto the advice the rest of give and net nanny our manners.

.

I wouldn't consider it helping someone in an educated manner when I am not qualified to do so.
I wouldn't buy a house which an apprentice told me was in good condition without a professional survey.The information repeated here by consumers is often misleading, for instance repeating hearsay. It is all over the internet how, this group are OCD,
rude and indignant when something they have said is true is corrected. There are even industry people here talking about it too on other forums.

I am not COMPLAINING just repeating info in the same way you are when 'helping' people.

What your are doing is criticising what a GIA instructor is saying. Now on that other thread, I can take what Paul Antwerp
said as another angle to look at, I mean he has a genuine view too, and from a professional background. He is stating
medium flourescence is not necessarily bad, but the other professional is staing you don't get it in a top quality d iamond
and indoors is okay or good but strong blue is apparent outdoors. Now Bryan Gavin is not in this discussion but as a
professional he may have said, not all strong blue and he finds the good ones with his PROFESSIONAL eye. Same way political parties have good things to say on a topic but different view points, believed by different people to be correct or not.
I remember Garry Holloway said his wife's diamond was D SI1, and he believed you noticed color. Now no one here helping people and giving their advice is learning newbies this. They are just preaching what they believe.



From now on I will be a spectator but will never comment.

 

[Gypsy]

From now on I will be a spectator but will never comment.

This makes no sense. I see a problem, and instead of staying and helping change it. I'll just be quiet and seethe in quiet. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

 

[Gypsy]

As for why the others went away. I can't speak for them, but I can tell you why I often leave for long breaks, and think I may never come back from them.

I have no issue with making vendors money, but I do feel frustrated about making PRICESCOPE a ton of money, getting very little thanks from the owners at all IMO, and on TOP of that having people complain all the time about HOW I do what I do, but do nothing to actually HELP me or the other prosumers do it or change how it is done. So actually, if I leave it will be because of people like Laila and Junebug. And then they can net nanny the rest to their hearts content, having successfully driven off the rest of us that actually have CONTENT to offer instead of PC manners.

And NO this is not a GBCPS in any way shape or form. And I do not want a bunch of people saying "please don't leave". Because I don't operate like that. Unlike some people in this thread. I am merely answering a question.

 

[Karl_K]

Pyramid,
Hi long time no chat!

A trade member says something is bad based on trade group think.
A consumer gets one and lives with it for weeks and loves it and thinks hey this is neat I am going to spread the word. Others then do the same.
Who is right?

btw, I fall into the camp that it is neat as long as it isn't boasting the color grade beyond what it should be and its not over blue.
Why do I fall into that camp? I went out and looked at them!

 

[pyramid]

From now on I will be a spectator but will never comment.

This makes no sense. I see a problem, and instead of staying and helping change it. I'll just be quiet and seethe in quiet. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

I'm not seething. I just don't see the point of writing when the forum is always one sided nowadays.
We can't all be right when we have different opinions and even the diamond cutters/graders/gemologists
have different opinions. There is a substantial reduction in traffic and posts now as only consumers are
answering questions, all believe they are right, including me and the public don't know the answer still.

 

[pyramid]

Not after the 'please don't leave' either, I can't standing that either.

Hi Karl

Yes I can see that consumers can look and make up their mind what they like best. I still don't think
that makes it a top diamond, when it is not what the trade set. Or what Prince Harry would buy.
There are top grades for a reason.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Hi, Dan! Welcome to PS! We appreciate the experts who post here, and I hope you will stay. I think RockDiamond gave you some good pointers about posting here. Being so new, naturally there are things to learn about posting on the forum and the rules for trade members. We are an unusual bunch in that some of us have tried out and love stones with fluorescence, but most of us have the stones checked out to be sure they have no bad effects before we buy. I am aware that the trade does value them lower, and that is a really good thing for those of us who like it! (I have never seen a VSB, only medium and strong.)

Anyway, despite a somewhat rocky start (pun intended!), I hope you'll stick around!

 

[Gypsy]

Not after the 'please don't leave' either, I can't standing that either.

I was not implying that you were. Sorry if it sounded that way.

 

[Laila619]

You all know I'm direct. So here it is:

Laila, Pyramid, and Junebug--- Complaining about things is easy. You are more than welcome to actually start HELPING on RT regularly-- day in and day out--and affect the change you'd like to see.

Personally I don't find complaining about what others do credible and I don't respect it especially when none of you help out on RT regularly except to ditto the advice the rest of give and net nanny our manners.

Gypsy, if you're so burned out, why don't you take a break? There is a difference between being "direct" and just being mean. Calling someone out on the number of posts he has as though that disqualifies him from posting advice when he is a G.G. and a qualified trade professional is just bizarre. Since when did post count matter?

As for RT, I help plenty, thanks. And I certainly don't "ditto" anybody. In fact, I'm usually offering a different opinion other than the usual PS Kool-aid type stuff.

 

[TC1987]

...very strong blue stones have an odd look in sunlight...

Okay, I can actually concur with "odd," as a cautionary term, from the standpoint(s):
--- Most people who are e-ring diamond buyers are seeking a white diamond, a very white or colorless diamond, not a tinge of some other color. If they've hung around PS or sim boards a while, they might be more adventuresome but I think the average newcomer-to-PS diamond purchaser is going to be conservative and traditional.
--- Many of those people have the notion that all "decent" diamonds are colorless or darned close to it
--- Just as a yellow O/P diamond shocked and yes, repulsed me a lot when I was a newbie, perhaps going outdoors and seeing your "colorless" diamond develop a violet glow would be too "odd" for an engagement ring stone for some people. Back in 2004, I bought myself a H color diamond, no fluor. I wanted a no less than a G/H white/colorless stone, no yellow, no light blue or violet in the sun, no pale brown etc. But, having satisfied that need for a "good basic stone" years ago, I then became interested in the lower colors, and later discovered that my OEC has blue fluor that was never noted on the appraisal back when I bought it in 1993. But I never actually scrutinized that diamond or any other diamond until after I found PS. And I now appreciate colors other than colorless / white, but it literally took me years to get there.

So (admitting I didn't read any of the posts this thread opened as a complaint about) perhaps we should add the disclaimer about possible color changes wherever UV light sources exist. "odd, repulsive"are certainly labels I would have stuck on the first O/P color diamond that I ever saw.

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

When a friend comes to me for advice on buying an engagement ring, and that is how I view the people inquiring on PS, this what I do and this ties into why I stated a post concerning strong or especially very strong blue stones.

I ask them what it is they hope to get. Most have already done some research on the internet, just as most of us have tried to diagnose an ache, pain or ailment before seeking a real Doctor. Then I need to know their budget,and if what they are looking for is impossible with their budget I have to explain what I will advise them on. Please take into account this is my philosophy.

I explain that color is most important because from ant distance the whole stone can be seen and the whole stone is the color.
Second is cut because a diamond needs to do what is supposed to do with light entering, exiting and reflecting and that no matter what the color is D-Z, if the cut is inferior those three factors will be affected.

Third is the size that they were looking for. They or their partner usually have a visual of what size they want and I try to come close, keeping in mind where the price breaks are.

Last of my concern is clarity. Why? Because most consumers would have trouble seeing clarity without hands on instructions. Why do I say this? Because it takes three months to train a new grader in a lab, 8 hours a day to understand and grade diamonds for all the categories that they need to grade on their own. I generally suggest VS2-SI1 but will go one higher and with caution one lower if need be. If a person has their mind made up for a diamond higher then VS1 then I will work on the other categories.

If needed I will go for VG, VG, Excellent or VG, VG,VG to keep the budget when the above categories are are exhausted. I will also suggest a faint blue or medium blue to save some money for the other categories if need be.

This strategy has worked for me and for those asking my advice.

Most of the inquiries are for budgets between $1500 and $40,000, so I am talking about stones from 0.50 cts. to 3 cts.

Since highly UVF stones are a small minority of the % of diamonds mined, in most cases there are plenty of stones without it that are available. Since I have access to the stones available in the NYC area from hundreds of manufacturers as does a PS person asking for advice I would share this advice with them.

I don't and will not suggest stones for them to buy, that is not up to me.

I travel to many parts of the world, Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, and the US. There are many areas that love specific types of stones. Some like larger K-M stones, some like only D-F, VVS2-IF.

I hope that clarifies why I wrote what I did. There are many other opinions on this process of searching for a diamond, this happens to be mine.

Thank you.
P.S. I didn't check for spelling or grammatical errors, have to get back to work.

 

[MarionC]

color over cut? is this a typo?

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

No, not a typo. I basically look for triple excellents in rounds at colors from J or better. If you noticed VG, VG EXc in that order is polish, symmetry, cut.

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

Analyzing cuts that are given VG by GIA is includes many factors. If everything is perfect except for a very thin girdle, (in one spot) so that the girdle thickness reads very thin to medium the stone cannot receive an excellent. Same is true if a stone has one medium sized extra facet on the upper girdle area. That stone would receive a good symmetry and thus no better then a VG cut. These are minor examples of ways that cut would be VG, but proportions may be all excellent. I observe all stones in my own hand for a final evaluation.

 

[CharmyPoo]

color over cut? is this a typo?

I take color over cut as well - call me a freak! But actually I would probably balance it off with size ... but for me color is KEY.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

color over cut? is this a typo?

I take color over cut as well - call me a freak! But actually I would probably balance it off with size ... but for me color is KEY.

I have parameters in all of those...cut will be ideal/excellent, color not lower than I (and preferably H or higher when I can access it), clarity VS, and once I have those in place, I see what I can afford size-wise. Size will never trump the other three specs for me. I could easily be wearing a 3 ct stone right now if size was my top spec.

 

[Andelain]

He's got a point there. I just scored an AGS2 .59 D-VS2 from WF for under $2k, because it has one facet with less than perfect polish. It's not even visable with a loupe, you'd need a microscope to see it. If not for the one minor facet, the stone would be an ACA. Instead, it's here beside me for about $40% off of what it would cost if not for a single facet.

 

[shimmer]

Analyzing cuts that are given VG by GIA is includes many factors. If everything is perfect except for a very thin girdle, (in one spot) so that the girdle thickness reads very thin to medium the stone cannot receive an excellent. Same is true if a stone has one medium sized extra facet on the upper girdle area. That stone would receive a good symmetry and thus no better then a VG cut. These are minor examples of ways that cut would be VG, but proportions may be all excellent. I observe all stones in my own hand for a final evaluation.

Being somewhat 'new' to the trade, I have learned exactly the above over the past three years, looking at thousands of diamonds.

Dan, your experience is invaluable, and it's an amazing attribute to want to share that here. I hope the people around here can appreciate that.

I joined PS as a consumer, for many years, and loved the forum to pieces! But since being given the 'trade' designation, all the fun has been sucked out of PS for me, so I hope other trade members contribute--it is really an awesome place and your input is needed!

 

[redroze]

I have no insight to add on this topic, just wanted to say this post has been really informative. I've been constantly seeing the same canned answer of 'cut is king', so understanding the different preferences of selecting a diamond is helpful to me and to all. And I hope this tone of discussion continues in RT! My searches have often resulted in viewing posts from earlier years and I've noted a similar educational tone then too with varied insights. Perhaps the approach is more old school...detailed and scientific and debate-like (vs the modern way of looking at information...short digestible chunks of the same info rehashed over and over again) but this forum seems to have a love for the old school, right?

Thanks!

 

[MarionC]

So, why are ACA's and AGS000 H&A often recommended?
I came here in a D/FL mindset and ended up comfortable & happy with G/VS1, but I thought a super ideal cut was what made top light performance, and even inside that designation there are even tighter parameters for maximum performance . My world is toppling

 

[Todd Gray]

I like your response Karl.

Trying to decide if I should grab the popcorn or pass on by..."nothing to see here" with style...

Different strokes for different folks. Just saw a comment from a PSer saying she loves when her diamond has that bluish hue in the sun. That's awesome!

The 2.25 carat, I-color, diamond with very strong blue fluorescence that I used to own, gave off the slightest hint of lavender blue when viewed from a side profile in direct sunlight and I loved it! Which is not to say that all VSB's will exhibit this effect, but mine did and I thought it was cool... It was not something which anybody else ever picked up on and it didn't exhibit any negative effects as a result of the fluorescence.

There is definitely a division within the industry between tradespeople who like fluorescence and those who don't, and I don't see it as a problem, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I didn't see the initial post(s) which apparently set this thread off, but I think that it makes a difference whether the diamond(s) are being sold "off paper" sight-unseen by a virtual-type vendor, or one which houses physical inventory and makes a point of personally evaluating every diamond to ensure that it meets their selection criteria, and that the fluorescence is not having a negative impact upon the diamond.

And oh if I had a nickel for every time I've been spanked on PS for violating those forum rules... and not intentionally by the way, sometimes "you" just write stuff on the fly, thinking that it makes sense, and then later you get a note from Admin reminding you to go back and take a refresher course on those rules... I don't think I know you Dan, but welcome to PS.

 

[WinkHPD]

So, why are ACA's and AGS000 H&A often recommended?
I came here in a D/FL mindset and ended up comfortable & happy with G/VS1, but I thought a super ideal cut was what made top light performance, and even inside that designation there are even tighter parameters for maximum performance . My world is toppling

Topple not Dear Lady,

As was said, there are many ways to make a decision, and in my world Cut is far and away the King! Everything else is a distant second in my world. I have proudly sold Ls and Ms and Ns and Os along with the occasional Q, R, S and T as well as the more common colors, and never have I thought the color was more important than the cut, even when I was a student at GIA back in 1975. Of course, back then I was also a color snob and disdained anything below an H and would only sell them under duress. I too, it seemed, would flounder in the world of color consciousness until I realized that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that sparkly makes nearly everything beautiful except some of the frozen toilet water with chunks that one sees at the mall stores these days. Of course, those are usually poorly cut, which does not help the sparkle factor.

I respect 30yearsofdiamonds' experience and opinion, even though I am diametrically opposed to parts of it. If everyone wanted what I wanted, then there would be too many out their providing what I provide and no way for me to make a living, and, in my opinion, of course, that would be really sad for me!

30 has noticed that many of the people here are cut oriented and that, for him, is rightfully his second priority. People who feel that way will be his rightful clients and will be very well served by him. I will go so far as to say that he, and they, are correct, when shopping for what they like.

There are others who will like cut first, and they already have many options to choose from here, so they will continue to be correct too.

Meeting at the camp fire in twenty minutes where we will all sit around and sing, Kumbaya.

Wink

 

[MarionC]

So, why are ACA's and AGS000 H&A often recommended?
I came here in a D/FL mindset and ended up comfortable & happy with G/VS1, but I thought a super ideal cut was what made top light performance, and even inside that designation there are even tighter parameters for maximum performance . My world is toppling

Topple not Dear Lady,

As was said, there are many ways to make a decision, and in my world Cut is far and away the King! Everything else is a distant second in my world. I have proudly sold Ls and Ms and Ns and Os along with the occasional Q, R, S and T as well as the more common colors, and never have I thought the color was more important than the cut, even when I was a student at GIA back in 1975. Of course, back then I was also a color snob and disdained anything below an H and would only sell them under duress. I too, it seemed, would flounder in the world of color consciousness until I realized that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that sparkly makes nearly everything beautiful except some of the frozen toilet water with chunks that one sees at the mall stores these days. Of course, those are usually poorly cut, which does not help the sparkle factor.

I respect 30yearsofdiamonds' experience and opinion, even though I am diametrically opposed to parts of it. If everyone wanted what I wanted, then there would be too many out their providing what I provide and no way for me to make a living, and, in my opinion, of course, that would be really sad for me!

30 has noticed that many of the people here are cut oriented and that, for him, is rightfully his second priority. People who feel that way will be his rightful clients and will be very well served by him. I will go so far as to say that he, and they, are correct, when shopping for what they like.

There are others who will like cut first, and they already have many options to choose from here, so they will continue to be correct too.

Meeting at the camp fire in twenty minutes where we will all sit around and sing, Kumbaya.

Wink

Thanks, Wink, for your insight.
I've been thinking about this subject on this thread all evening.
Thank you for reminding me that each of us is unique, like the shining objects of affection we discuss here so endlessly!

 

[allowingtoo]

My Town & Country Wedding Magazine said there was another "C" to consider for Diamonds. Charisma. That's what my Strong Blue has for me I thought about the older cuts when I read that though. But that is how I picked my diamond between two of them - and I knew nothing about Fluorescence at the time. One shot off red flashes and one blue. I don't like red (or orange) - so I picked the blue one. It was the most pleasing to the eye to me. I didn't read the papers, I knew nothing about picking out a diamond at the time.

I did say in another post that 30years had a very clear explanation about cut grade and I appreciated that. I'd never seen it explained that way before in such simple terms. Most people want to buy AGS000 and leave it at that. He broke it down and explained why some diamonds did not make that cut grade.

So if I were to buy another diamond, I would look for a Strong Blue and something slight off the AGS000 cut grade. The best of both worlds to me.

 

[yialanliu]

**edited by moderator, please watch your language and no personal attacks**

If theres an issue why start this in public? Pms seems much more appropriate.

 

[WinkHPD]

**edited by moderator, please watch your language and no personal attacks**
If theres an issue why start this in public? Pms seems much more appropriate.

Pms were once allowed here and caused many problems. Now our discussions are held in the open light and I personally find this one of the most interesting and informative forums on the net.

And why wouldn't moderators post their opinions? How else will they let us know what they are thinking?

Had you been here a few years ago during the "Cut Wars" you would have seen some royal battles. And had you then been to the JCK jewelry show in Las Vegas you would have seen many of the combatants from all the sides having the same battles at the dinner table, and the breakfast table and the lunch table and later having discussions also at the tables in the clubs and buying each other drinks, all the while arguing about who had it right or wrong.

I am diametrically opposed to 30 Years feeling that cut is only in second place, and yet I acknowledge his right to have his opinion. I fail to see why that should not be stated in public. From both sides.

I only wish I had seen his posts that were the topic of the first post in this thread, then I could have commented on them at that time. In my opinion, it is the sharing of opposing ideas that makes this a fun and informative forum.

Just my thoughts,

Wink

 

[AN0NYM0US]

...

 

[maccers]

Wink, can I ask about the Cut Wars? What were the issues at the time?

 

[Karl_K]

Had you been here a few years ago during the "Cut Wars" you would have seen some royal battles. And had you then been to the JCK jewelry show in Las Vegas you would have seen many of the combatants from all the sides having the same battles at the dinner table, and the breakfast table and the lunch table and later having discussions also at the tables in the clubs and buying each other drinks, all the while arguing about who had it right or wrong.

lol in those days about all a lot of the trade members could agree on is they disliked me!
I still think it is funny that I ruffled so many feathers.

 

[Karl_K]

Wink, can I ask about the Cut Wars? What were the issues at the time?

IS then aset when it came out.
hca
cut precision
h&a
Buying with paper.
41 degree pavilions
steep deep
shallow pavilions
tolk superiority
8* being the cats meow
cut grading
branding
showing heart images if you claimed h&a
leakage
obstruction
painting/digging

And a very big one was:
consumer empowerment
Which is why a large portion of the online trade did not like me.
I was pushing boundaries and was pretty brutal to those that tried to hold me back.
One fairly good sized online dealer tried to get everyone who listed diamonds on PS kicked off the buying lists and boycotted because of the direction it was heading which is where we are today with consumers holding the power and trade restrained.

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