A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by DBL

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

All vendors will have pieces that fall short of expectation and their usual quality standard - this also applies to Leon Mege and Steven Kirsch (I can think of examples but won't share them). Add to this that they may believe they have executed their design fully but their design vision can be different from the customer's vision. It's not easy. Honestly, I think buying a diamond is easier than getting it set.

Unfortunately, this is very true, Charmy. I've isolated what I feel are some aesthetic differences from objective issues with quality, and the VC suffers from both the latter and the former. The regions where the trellis wires were soldered into the shank are lumpy, as if the wires were spaced too far for the width of the bar used for the shank; and the various flat and curved areas are visibly uneven and unevenly spaced on both sides of the ring, as are the four regions of triangular engraving. The area under the engraving is rough, and each prong bisects two facets - each sits on an upper girdle facet and the tip extends onto the lower bezel facet, but the tips weren't pushed down onto this flatter facet and so they catch on *everything*. I also noticed that the side-prongs were notched for the adjacent diamonds but the diamonds didn't actually sit in the notches - had I kept the ring I would have sent it back to have this fixed, but I certainly think it shouldn't have been the case to begin with. Unacceptable given the 6k pricetag, all in all. I've learnt a lot.

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

On a positive note, some new pics The centrestone wire has been attached -

 

[Amys Bling]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Wishing you the bet with this reset. I had no idea that you were unhappy with the VC setting!! I always gauk at the DBL page should be a stunner!

 

[CaprineSun]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I dunno, I've gotten the impression that hand-forging or hand-polishing (since I'm not sure anymore if LM is all hand-forged) is much easier to do with platinum (especially fluid lines) than WG. Which is also why these designers always prefer working with platinum and why the vendors you have worked with have called this job a "PITA," as you put it.

I think your VC is a masterpiece and, hopefully, your next one by DBL can be a success for you.

 

[MissStepcut]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

All vendors will have pieces that fall short of expectation and their usual quality standard - this also applies to Leon Mege and Steven Kirsch (I can think of examples but won't share them). Add to this that they may believe they have executed their design fully but their design vision can be different from the customer's vision. It's not easy. Honestly, I think buying a diamond is easier than getting it set.

Unfortunately, this is very true, Charmy. I've isolated what I feel are some aesthetic differences from objective issues with quality, and the VC suffers from both the latter and the former. The regions where the trellis wires were soldered into the shank are lumpy, as if the wires were spaced too far for the width of the bar used for the shank; and the various flat and curved areas are visibly uneven and unevenly spaced on both sides of the ring, as are the four regions of triangular engraving. The area under the engraving is rough, and each prong bisects two facets - each sits on an upper girdle facet and the tip extends onto the lower bezel facet, but the tips weren't pushed down onto this flatter facet and so they catch on *everything*. I also noticed that the side-prongs were notched for the adjacent diamonds but the diamonds didn't actually sit in the notches - had I kept the ring I would have sent it back to have this fixed, but I certainly think it shouldn't have been the case to begin with. Unacceptable given the 6k pricetag, all in all. I've learnt a lot.

Yssie, remember... you only ever owned/stared at for hours/were super critical of your VC. You see other people's rings in photos, but may not appreciate the flaws that you would notice if they were on your hand. It's like your own face: only I know that my nose is slightly crooked, or the pale scar under my chin.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I think it is good that you have now sorted through what you don't like so you can articulate them to DBL. I think this is also the journey that Frankie went through - with each reset, she figured out what she liked and didn't like so she could better explain what she wanted and ultimately got her dream ring. I know I have learnt from each of my projects too.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I think it is good that you have now sorted through what you don't like so you can articulate them to DBL. I think this is also the journey that Frankie went through - with each reset, she figured out what she liked and didn't like so she could better explain what she wanted and ultimately got her dream ring. I know I have learnt from each of my projects too.

Very true.

Yssie honey, Victor didn't want to do your project for a reason-- I am sorry to say it, but I wasn't surprised you were unhappy though I REALLY hoped you would be. I'm posting for one reason only. I've learned from experience that if a vendor doesn't WANT to do a project (for whatever reason) you don't want them to, no matter what you may think to the contrary. A person's first instinct is the right one. When a vendor's first inclination is NO, I hope that everyone following this journey REALLY internalizes this as a take away.

 

[0-0-0]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Thank you for sharing your experiences with VC and now DBL. I hope DBL can meet your expectations. Please share your impressions of how the quality of soldering work from DBL compares with VC when you get the piece. I'm really curious.

 

[why2not]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

The difference is just SO obvious in these pics - in the super clean lines of the LM, the smooth lines of the trellis wires, the way element changes are fluidly integrated, details aside - and both are handmade, so the issues are clearly with vision and planning and execution and not, as I first though, with simply what's possible and what isn't

Hmm, let me preface by saying that I'm commenting only because I design products made of metals... not jewelry but things like car engine supports, compressor cases, turbine blades. I design for casting, hand made (variety of methods), stamped, impression die forged, machined, etc. I am an engineer and the designs I work on are usually more based on strength, fit, material (and remaining within the limits of the method of manufacture) than aesthetics.

To me, elements of this example ring certainly look cast and hand finished, not "100% hand forged" like your VC ring or this new one by DBL. Also, keep in mind that you're looking at a 3 stone ring in this photo rather than 5 stone. Finally, you're talking about two completely different metals and what is possible in one may be marginal (especially dealing with hand forming, soldering, etc) in another.

I casually followed your other thread and from an engineer's standpoint completely agreed with VC and his stopping point. To take that ring any further at the shank/head junction would have compromised the integrity of the ring at a critical stress point and a point that had already been soldered at several times.

To put this into my terms, you're basically in R&D mode and changing what you want after you have seen it (ie: seeing elements of a finished design you want changed after the piece is in your hands). Sometimes a part (ring) can be tweaked to get what you want or close to what you want, sometimes it has to be re-started from scratch to accomplish that. You're no different than many a sales/marketing/(whomever requests a new product) department I have worked with. Sometimes you'e not sure how to communicate exactly what you want, but you'll know it when you see it. Unfortunately, if you can not communicate exactly what you want, then it likely will take several iterations to get to get there. I'm sure (if he was paid for a new peice) VC could have restarted your ring from scratch (like you’re doing now) armed with the more refined instructions and come closer to achieving your vision.

There is a reason R&D is expensive, and in part it is because of this iterative process. There is also a reason CAD (especially parametric solid modeling) is popular for R&D. It is much cheaper to sit the end customer in front of a solid model that can be rotated or have the lighting changed, etc to finalize a design than it is to make a piece, then remake it with a design change or two (especially if the design change is someplace critical that requires a whole new piece, not just a modification to an existing piece).

There are definite advantages to forged vs cast pieces (ie: a piece can be made thinner/smaller/lighter because it has higher strength or less internal stress) but there are disadvantages as well. There are also "mind clean" issues as well, to me their is simply something "right" about pairing an ancient stone created by nature and cut by a fine craftsman with a piece also hand created by a craftsman using some of the oldest metal working techniques available.

BUT if I were recommending a design process for you (or someone like you essentially creating a design they are 100% sure of the "feel" of and 98% sure of how to get there - it's those last 2% nit-picky tiny detials that still are vague), it would be to start in CAD. Get those last couple of gray areas figured out before starting any metalworking. A good CAD designer who knows what is possible in jewelry hand forging should be able to give you a 3-D model of a hand forged ring that a craftsman/smith can reproduce.

Otherwise they just might be stuck creating and recreating the piece in real life until those last tiny details are worked out to their satisfaction as you and others have done. Of course, even a couple of hours spent viewing a 3-d model on screen isn’t quite the same as touching, holding and living with a ring for day upon day. I hope (for your pocketbook and peace of mind) that this 2nd design iteration is your last and you’ve been able to work out those areas that are still vague to your full satisfaction.

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Twinkle - Yes, from everything I understand it's easier to work with Pt. We're apparently using Pd-wg this time because it's more malleable than the nickel alloy - I wasn't over the moon about that, but the priority is the sturdiness and longevity of the design and so that was one concession I just needed to make.

Thank you for your well wishes!


MissSC - Again, you are correct! I've never seen another VC IRL so I only know what I see of my ring. I took Frankie's through-the-loupe photos to heart - the workmanship and finish is jaw-droppingly beautiful, even, and *precise* in her photos, perhaps that made me overconfident? I felt I made clear I was a particular customer, but in case I was wrong, I've made *triply* clear to DBL the quality of workmanship I expect - evenness and symmetry of various elements w/ naked eye (I'm not about to take a loupe to it to critique - and this is of course aside from design/aesthetic considerations). They have taken on those expectations and said "we won't let you be unhappy", and that's a level of both service and confidence in one's work that I find incredibly reassuring.


Charmy - Thank you, and I agree. I'm going through Frankie's journey, with a different style - and I confess, hoping very much to make one less stop along the way!

Can I also add that I really appreciate your posts in my threads? You're blunt but insightful, and having the thoughts of someone else who has been through a similar journey is invaluable.


Gypsy - Actually you are incorrect - Victor's first reaction was that it sounded like a very interesting project, and one that he'd really like to take on for his portfolio, and that the resulting piece would be more beautiful than anything casting could produce, but that it couldn't be done within the budget that I originally specified. I later increased that budget.

I was very careful to avoid precisely that issue, actually - I never want to push a job on a vendor who doesn't want it, as I truly believe nothing good can ever come of that. I specifically asked him outright if he wanted to take on this project or not, and told him I wouldn't be offended or think poorly if he refused (remember Burdeen's and Mark Morell also refused). So in this regard anyway I really think I took every care possible. It's also the reason I didn't push him for a bigger fix, and decided to start over elsewhere, actually - not forcing jobs on vendors who don't want them.

In that same spirit though, I'll say that DBL's first reaction was "absolutely, we want this project", so whether or not my care was in earnest with VC it's definitely not a problem now


thb - I will definitely start a new thread when it comes in and I've had some time to mull everything over. My thoughts are all over the place right now and probably will be until I have it in-hand, so I rather suspect I'm picking my way through a minefield until then!


why2not Thank you for your very thorough post! I'm one of those theory people you engineers tease mercilessly , so naturally I'm coming at it from the "if ghosting is possible anything's possible" angle, and I need the in-between of the bench to lay out what is and isn't practically feasible.

I too understand why VC would not work further on the piece - specifically, on the element I wanted changed, the end-prong attachment. At that point it was what it was, and as he put it, would require heart surgery to alter. He was clearly not eager to go down either of those paths - surgery or remake - so I didn't push him to, and I definitely feel I made the right decision there.

You are also spot on re. multiple iterations to achieve the "perfect" aesthetic. I had a three-stone re-made (w/ CAD/wax/CAM) twice before I was happy with the *design*. The difference, though, was that at a pricepoint three times lower, the finish on my WF pieces is excellent. Prongs sit fully on all facets and don't catch, the engraving, done by hand afterward, is symmetric on all sides - those are the sorts of inconsistencies w/ the VC that I am truly upset by. Design aesthetic - I'm no stranger to doing it many times to get it right...

I definitely think VC could have altered the overall design to better match my desired aesthetic second time round, but like I said to Gypsy I don't want to push a job on a vendor who doesn't want it, so I think my decision to go elsewhere was the best of my options. I'm very happy with DBL's work and - um. Customer Handling? so far

Your idea of starting in CAD and going from there is fantastic. Why on earth didn't I think of that? Yes, I'd pay for a CAD designer's time, but... me, I'd pay it without a second thought. I wonder - do CAD designers generally know what is and is not possible in hand forging jewellery, and what accomodations would have to be made? Or the other way round - do skilled hand-forgers usually know their way around some CAD software? I understand Rhino and Solidworks are common choices... If so, why is this not common practice? Mystique about hand-forging is all well and good - until the people most likely to appreciate the nuances run into problems because of those nuances!

Thank you for your thoughts and words.



ETA: I should say here that the posts thus far have been very interesting and helpful, and please keep them coming! I really appreciate all the observations, on both manufacturing processes and my MO. I just want to add that I'm not interested in having this thread to turn into a he-said she-said debate, or worse, a vendor-bashing platform, so I'll be forthright and request that if anyone feels the need to make inflammatory comments please do it elsewhere.

Again, this is NOT referring to any posts in this thread or the original reset thread - just pre-emptive, to avoid another fiasco like in Hangout!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie - the design is beautiful and reminds me of what I want Well, in the sense that it is wirey I hope you don't regret the platinum choice - I gave in to the pressure on my last ring to do that and I liked it but I'm definitely not doing that this time. I am going to stick to it. So tough!! I don't like support bars either! But I think I'll make up the strength in the corners since my stone is rectangular. Anyway, really looking forward to seeing the rest of this!!

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie - the design is beautiful and reminds me of what I want Well, in the sense that it is wirey I hope you don't regret the platinum choice - I gave in to the pressure on my last ring to do that and I liked it but I'm definitely not doing that this time. I am going to stick to it. So tough!! I don't like support bars either! But I think I'll make up the strength in the corners since my stone is rectangular. Anyway, really looking forward to seeing the rest of this!!

Nope! Not platinum - did that, hated it, never doing it again! It's palladium-white gold. So less obviously yellow than Nickel-wg, but still warm enough to make my skin and my Js happy

DBL's bench doesn't think the centre is sufficiently supported with just the eight prongs, so they're going to do "hidden structs" on just the centre. The outer baskets on the sides will be milgrained a bit differently as well...

Are you planning a reset? I missed this! Your stone is GORGEOUS - I can't wait to see what you come up with!!

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie, when I went down the road of making the setting for my AVC, I also considered getting a CAD done first. In fact, I actually found people that had experience in handforging that also offered CAD services and got quotes. I wanted to do this to iron out all the details of the design before commiting to an expensive custom made piece. I knew I couldn't go through iterations when we are talking about actual metal involved. Alas, I didn't follow through (not because of the price as it wasn't too bad) but because I went with a relatively simple design that was close to something that has already been made. The drawing was sufficient in my case.

I have experience in using CAD but it wouldn't do me any good because I wouldn't understand the realities of turning my CAD design into a real ring.

For some reason, I am drawing blanks in who I contacted about CAD - I believe Michael E was one of them. I also have a local person that is very good at CAD and does custom work (he was mentioned on PS before - Leif). He usually only works in gold which is good for you but bad for me

 

[why2not]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I wonder - do CAD designers generally know what is and is not possible in hand forging jewellery, and what accomodations would have to be made? Or the other way round - do skilled hand-forgers usually know their way around some CAD software? I understand Rhino and Solidworks are common choices... If so, why is this not common practice? Mystique about hand-forging is all well and good - until the people most likely to appreciate the nuances run into problems because of those nuances

To your first question: they should if they are "good". It's a bit like any skill, you learn it by doing it and learning. In my field, I learned by having the fabricators, mold cutters etc sitting at my desk pointing out mistakes as I made them (early days) or by reviewing my drawings and coming back and telling me what an idiot I was, there was no way to make that part as drawn!

CAD designing for handforging would take some knowledge of what is possible and even further what the skill level of the person who is doing the work is. But it is possible for someone to gain that knowledge by working with the particular artist/smith enough and then only needing to call them in when something is borderline.

In answer to your last question, I suspect it is a matter of cost. Hand forging already has a (super high skill) labor premium attached to it, throw in CAD charges... I could easily see your ring (at the beginning) adding 10-15 hours of CAD designer time of back and forth to iron everything out... at $50/hr you've now just added $500-750 to the cost of a hand forged ring. In certain supercritical situations like yours, it is probably money well spent. But as a "common practice" a smith keeping a CAD designer on staff probably does not make sense.

If you find a jewler who does both hand forging and casting, they might be able to do that as they presumably have a CAD designer on staff who has access to the hand forged bench. They could probably provide a better answer then the general one I have given. I must again state that I am not in the jewelry business and while I am guessing that some of my experiences would translate, the devil is in those last 2% of the details I undoubtedly have screwed up!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie - the design is beautiful and reminds me of what I want Well, in the sense that it is wirey I hope you don't regret the platinum choice - I gave in to the pressure on my last ring to do that and I liked it but I'm definitely not doing that this time. I am going to stick to it. So tough!! I don't like support bars either! But I think I'll make up the strength in the corners since my stone is rectangular. Anyway, really looking forward to seeing the rest of this!!

Nope! Not platinum - did that, hated it, never doing it again! It's palladium-white gold. So less obviously yellow than Nickel-wg, but still warm enough to make my skin and my Js happy

DBL's bench doesn't think the centre is sufficiently supported with just the eight prongs, so they're going to do "hidden structs" on just the centre. The outer baskets on the sides will be milgrained a bit differently as well...

Are you planning a reset? I missed this! Your stone is GORGEOUS - I can't wait to see what you come up with!!

It's a few months out still (can't do it here in China) and I don't want to hijack your thread, but I will say that I don't want any side support bars so the way to deal with that is to have ridiculously thick corner posts... and the way to have ridiculously thick corner posts that I can live with is to make it LOOK like two or three separate wires. But I don't want a clumsy job of it just looking like a crease in a thick bar. I want the wires to separate and come together in a way that supports and yet looks airy. We'll see if I can pull it off lol (or someone else can pull it off). I really love the color of my newest band - oh that reminds me! I've been meaning to post a color comparison picture I took!

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Thank you, Amy!


Charmy!! You didn't mention this way back when, before I dove in the first time... why?

Leif... I recognised the name but I had to look him up. It looks like he's done some very nice work - too bad he's out-of-country!

I know DBL does CAD work as well, but I think they're different strictly departments/benches/whatever the right word is, so I don't know that one would have a good understanding of the other. I guess for it to be of real use you'd need someone who actually does both, or works in an environment wherein he/she becomes really familiar with both...

Since it isn't point and click to undo w/ the actual metal, they've agreed to let me see the different structs as they're going to be put together, so we can make changes in those in-between stages. Frankly that concession for my comfort, the fact that I had the opportunity to actually *see* some of their work in-person, and that they're in driving distance are the only reasons I went hand-forged again.


Why Huh. Honestly, I never considered what portion of cost the actual design is - I just assumed it wasn't much!

The cost of handforging is definitely high. In some ways IMO that just makes getting a pre-CAD or something make *more* sense though - if you're paying 5-10k for a setting already what's a few hundred more, y'know? Though your next statement puts it in perspective: finding and hiring the person with those skills wouldn't be cost-effective if you aren't doing a ton of custom work with customers who would take advantage of that...

Thanks again for your insight! I hope you stick around - or at least keep sharing your thoughts in this thread, anyway


Cehra - it's not hijacking if the OP asks, right? Two or three wires sounds interesting... like fishtail, only actually separated...

One of the things I like about handforging is that all those different elements *are* actually different - it's not just a visual like in a poured cast, and you can see the delineations from the sides and undersides. It's one of those little details that I know noone else in my circle would appreciate, but I get a kick out of it!

What metal is your new band?

 

[why2not]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Honestly, I never considered what portion of cost the actual design is - I just assumed it wasn't much!

...

Thanks again for your insight! I hope you stick around - or at least keep sharing your thoughts in this thread, anyway

Well take my numbers with a grain of salt. I have long since moved on from "driving the bus" on any CAD work and the designers who work for me usually tell me that my expecations are too high (or that I say they will get things done in less time than the need). I'm gussing that a design mostly like yours would have been in house on a CAD system and it is simply a matter of tweeking parameters to get from there to what you needed... and it wouldn't take too many tries to communicate that back to your approval. After all, designers writing and reading email costs time also.

As far as sticking around, I have been lurking for a while. I would say I have about 1000 hours of "diamond study" in but still feel like a babe in the woods so I doubt I will post much. But I will be around for a while, kind of like Santa, I will be watching On the other hand, I hope that you continue to actively post. You're one of the teachers to us students and it is a shame to have seen so many "older" posters who have taught me so much seemingly vanish.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

The new band ([URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cehras-3-stone-helix-by-wf.166915/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cehras-3-stone-helix-by-wf.166915/[/URL]) is unplated white gold. 5 years ago when I had my diamond set I wanted so badly to play up that antique ivory thing with unplated white gold, but got talked out of it and always regretted it. The ring was always supposed to look like 3 bands stuck together but instead its a hunk. I always wanted something architectural to hold the stone and the head on its current ring was close but not exactly what I wanted. I just gave up and took what I could get in the end. Anyway... Between you and Haven I have lots of inspiration!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

HI all,
I have been reading this thread with great interest- I wanted to clarify a few things, as I see them.
Before I do- its very important to remember that jewelry making is totally "boutique" at the level we're discussing here. More commercial jewelry has more mass production elements.
The shop making yssies ring employs abut 30 people- that's HUGE in this field.
Compare that to other manufacturing facilities, for other products. Hundreds or thousands of workers in a factory will change the scale of everything- and even the even the level of commonality between competing shops.
The result is although jewelry makers may share some common techniques, many shops use tools, and techniques differently than other shops. Even the composition of metal will produce different color metals.
In my experience, CAD work is phenomenal for a lot of jobs- but trying to use it in the ways being discussed here: that being, to design a project which is subsequently hand forged- seems a non productive endeavor.
The reason is that so much of a hand forged ring- or even a cad ring- is dependent on the skill of the sellers, and polishers.
A heavy hand on the polish wheel can destroy the grace of a shank- conversely, an artist's hand can turn a CAD cast piece onto art.
So- even if the cad is perfect, the actual ring might not be.

The best makers utilize all the tools- hand forged, cast, die struck- to solve any given design- this is a part of what makes a shop great.

Customer satisfaction:
A piece of advice I've given many times before here on PS- if someone wants a custom made job, look at as many actual pieces from that maker as you can to make sure they can produce results consistent with your expectations. Yssie looked at a lot of our pieces- and very closely I might add. Sure, there are things one might not notice immediately, but there's lot of things you will be able to see right off.

Then, make sure you discuss contingencies.
It's not unreasonable for a maker of a custom made ring to state that no money back guarantee is possible- but I do not think potential client is not out of line if they ask what the maker will do other than a refund if the piece does not meet expectations.

 

[Mike R]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Having a ring handmade is sort of like giving the same photo to different artists and asking them to reproduce it with acrylic on canvas, you will get very different results. That is why it is so important to look at other examples of the artists/jewellers work and make sure you are happy with what you see, like RD said.

Also keep in mind, because you may like how one artist produces one style that it does not necessarily mean you will like how they make a different style ring. Often small workshops specialize in making one style and can be challenged producing something that does not fit within their comfort zone.

RD I'm curious, does the large workshop that employs 30 jewellers have a designer on staff that renders the designs by hand with water colour paints? Or has the CAD designers put an end to the art. I'm just curious because I collect antique water colour jewellery designs from the 20's and 30's
(sorry if this question is off topic, the ring is looking great!)

 

[why2not]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

In my experience, CAD work is phenomenal for a lot of jobs- but trying to use it in the ways being discussed here: that being, to design a project which is subsequently hand forged- seems a non productive endeavor.
The reason is that so much of a hand forged ring- or even a cad ring- is dependent on the skill of the sellers, and polishers.
A heavy hand on the polish wheel can destroy the grace of a shank- conversely, an artist's hand can turn a CAD cast piece onto art.
So- even if the cad is perfect, the actual ring might not be.

Thanks, as I said I have no experience in jewelry manufacture and one of the things I love about the online community here is that true experts can and do chime in!

 

[LD]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie - I'm watching your journey with interest because several years ago I had a handforged trellis ring made. The jeweller I worked with initially put together some CADs so we could play around with the design but in the end the ring was handmade. What was interesting was that when they had made the CADs the side diamonds were unsupported but when they were actually making the ring, their advice was to have tiny supports holding each in place. I was really reluctant to begin with but am so thankful that the change was made. I had mine made in two colour gold to emphasize the trellis and I like the design so much that I may well replicate it again but in white gold and with different shape stones.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing your end result.

 

[MissStepcut]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie I should have known you were changing metals. I noticed right away the color difference. I will be very curious to see if you are okay with the new metal.

If RD doesn't think a CAD is a good idea... What about expressing yourself in a different medium than drawing? I am thinking of fimo clay...

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Why Thank you, you're very kind! I'm so happy I found PS and got to meet so many people who share my hobby

Well, if you do decide to play and wind up with foot in mouth - we've all been there I definitely think your experience in machining provides a perspective that RT could benefit from.


Cehra I remember that band, it's a beauty! And, of course, ITA on the colour

I'm sorry your setting wasn't what you hoped for, I think SO many people go through this same thing! I'll look forward to your reset thread when you come back - with fingers crossed that it goes fabulously!


RD -
1. Shop size. When you said "big" I thought a hundred or more - talk about change of perspective!

2. The use of CAD in handforging. From a (my) consumer perspective CAD has a certain appeal in that if the designer has intimate knowledge of the handforging process, virtues, and limitations, he/she could create a sort of caricature CAD that highlights those particular aspects. If that makes sense? Not so much for overall design, but more for detailing those specifics, because overall design you can achieve with good communication - photos, descriptions, conversations... Then again good communication should be sufficient to detail those specifics too, assuming one knows to ask and the vendor is comfortable sharing the information...

There's no question that for better or worse CAD does *not* accurately and precisely represent the finished product, like you say. I speak from experience on that one (heh, ::snort. Again, from (my) consumer perspective, there are lots of shops that will make you a CAD. There are far fewer that will make you a CAD with the understanding that the picture on the monitor isn't going to be exactly what you wind up with, and that will tailor the CAD such that the machined output, not the CAD itself, is what you, the customer, wants. Conversely, I suspect there are few customers who would require that sort of attention to detail, so as long as those customers find those vendors everyone lives happily ever after

3. Customer satisfaction. The potential client has to know and remember to *ask* about what happens if a piece doesn't meet expectations! I didn't, and that was my mistake - and definitely one that I think others reading this thread will learn from!


Mike haha thank you! I DID inspect the pieces RD showed me when we met - closely, and more callously than I would have had I been planning to have DBL remake my ring at the time since I had no stake in the matter... What I saw inspired me to contact them, so I'm really glad we met!

Paintings of rings sound so beautiful... RD do I get a painting?


MissSC Yup, I'm not surprised you noticed, with your own unplated wg ring! I'm curious too.. I know it's greyer, and I found a photo from a PS article on common alloys that looks really lovely, so if it looks like that I'll be a happy camper!

Sadly I really don't have any artistic capabilities... I'd kinda love to see a vendor's reaction to getting a little clay model in the mail though I've been using photos, and I think we're doing pretty well so far of all staying on the same page. This time around we have a much better idea of the various things we need to worry about, too.


LD have you posted any pics on PS of this ring? I'd love to see it! I'll have to go back through your threads...

It's great that you found someone who let you into Their World, understanding that that was what *you* needed to be comfortable with the transaction. I know that for me, if I'm kept in the loop, and if they explain why they're doing what they're doing, I'm unlikely to object to whatever it is even if it's not what I originally had in mind. But spring it on me as a surprise at the end - or say "trust me" and give me nothing to chew on in the meantime - and I generally react poorly!


Who knew having a ring made could be such an introspective process

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Having a ring handmade is sort of like giving the same photo to different artists and asking them to reproduce it with acrylic on canvas, you will get very different results. That is why it is so important to look at other examples of the artists/jewellers work and make sure you are happy with what you see, like RD said.

Also keep in mind, because you may like how one artist produces one style that it does not necessarily mean you will like how they make a different style ring. Often small workshops specialize in making one style and can be challenged producing something that does not fit within their comfort zone.

RD I'm curious, does the large workshop that employs 30 jewellers have a designer on staff that renders the designs by hand with water colour paints? Or has the CAD designers put an end to the art. I'm just curious because I collect antique water colour jewellery designs from the 20's and 30's
(sorry if this question is off topic, the ring is looking great!)

Hi Mike, welcome to PS - please call me David.

This particular shop does have a phenomenal artist - and we draw concepts together. Well, he draws, I comment. We also use physical examples of prior work- we pick elements we want to use, and those we want to trash. Blank sheet designs are .....exciting. Of course sometimes we want peace, when we get excitement ( or a ring that was not at all that I had in mind)..... but the artist in me keeps shouting "Without experimentation, nothing new will ever occur!"
Then the businessman inside me reminds the artist that someone has to pay for all this...do you think I'm talking to myself too much

As I mentioned- I'm a bit off put by looking at cad drawings- only because the results are by no means assured as a general rule.
I also agree whole-heartedly with your statement about a great shop doing a design they've never done before.
Just because they do one thing well, does not mean everything they do will be well done. Trying to get a shop to be expert in something they aren't can be a waste of resources.

 

[LD]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie - I'm a complete and utter control freak so HAVE to be part of the design process which is why I choose who to work with carefully! Having a project out of my hands feels a little bit too much like freefalling!!! You'll be pleased to know that although David didn't make this ring for me, I've worked with him before and found the process very reassuring. He works hard at getting it right for the customer.

I'm posting photos below of the ring I was referring to - please be aware however that I don't mind rings to look "rustic" and handfinished. I am totally aware that this would drive most PSers bonkers but for me it's ok! I'll also post the CADs so you can see the version without the struts on the side diamonds.

 

[sparklyforever]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I don't post much but I just wanted to say I loved both the stone butterfly and the VC ring..
I know you saw flaws with the VC ring - but man that thing was beautiful to me.. I hate milgrain - but shockingly - though this looked great.
I am looking forward to the next version..

I don't keep up much on PS - but this weekend I got sucked in to this whole thread.. I would love to go back and read as to the reasons for the changes from the 3 stone to the 5 stone but can't find it. any pointers for locating?'

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Ohhh LD your design is beautiful!! I really like the way the trellis structure continues down the inside of the shank as two discrete entities, and I don't think the baskets take away from the "feel" of the piece at all I can see why you love it so much you're considering having another made for your other stones!

sparkly - thank you!
No deep dark secret on the reasons for the change - I was reading a thread and showed DH a pic of a fivestone, he expressed disappointment that we hadn't gone ahead with a fivestone like we'd originally decided on, I - didn't really react well, got over it, and we got started on making the fivestone a reality

 

[Laila619]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

LD, man that ring is GORGEOUS!!

 

[Mike R]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Having a ring handmade is sort of like giving the same photo to different artists and asking them to reproduce it with acrylic on canvas, you will get very different results. That is why it is so important to look at other examples of the artists/jewellers work and make sure you are happy with what you see, like RD said.

Also keep in mind, because you may like how one artist produces one style that it does not necessarily mean you will like how they make a different style ring. Often small workshops specialize in making one style and can be challenged producing something that does not fit within their comfort zone.

RD I'm curious, does the large workshop that employs 30 jewellers have a designer on staff that renders the designs by hand with water colour paints? Or has the CAD designers put an end to the art. I'm just curious because I collect antique water colour jewellery designs from the 20's and 30's
(sorry if this question is off topic, the ring is looking great!)

Hi Mike, welcome to PS - please call me David.

This particular shop does have a phenomenal artist - and we draw concepts together. Well, he draws, I comment. We also use physical examples of prior work- we pick elements we want to use, and those we want to trash. Blank sheet designs are .....exciting. Of course sometimes we want peace, when we get excitement ( or a ring that was not at all that I had in mind)..... but the artist in me keeps shouting "Without experimentation, nothing new will ever occur!"
Then the businessman inside me reminds the artist that someone has to pay for all this...do you think I'm talking to myself too much

As I mentioned- I'm a bit off put by looking at cad drawings- only because the results are by no means assured as a general rule.
I also agree whole-heartedly with your statement about a great shop doing a design they've never done before.
Just because they do one thing well, does not mean everything they do will be well done. Trying to get a shop to be expert in something they aren't can be a waste of resources.

Thanks for the welcome David.
Its great to hear that the art of hand rendering is still happening in NYC. I too am off put by CAD renderings, I think they would limit the beauty that a great jeweller would be able to create if they were limited by the confines of a CAD design.