A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by DBL

[Rockdiamond]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Hi Guys- hopefully it's ok if I handle Charmy's questions:
First of all, it's not possible to comment on finish at this point in the job- final polish is done- by hand- and the difference between a great polisher, and a very good one is incredible- it seems like a simple part of the process- but don't under-rate it's importance.
By all means, we'll check the final polish very carefully- however a concern about the transition being jagged is directly related to this.
Second of all, on this point- is the prong.
Right now we're looking at a wire sticking straight up. Once the stone is seated, and the prong finished, this entire area will look different.

IN terms of roundness- part of this aspect is also related to polish.
However we also need to have some character line at the outside edge of the shank for continuity- it will really make the prong look far more integrated.
Since we've been looking "inside" this process- and seeing things the end user usually does not- we get a more thorough perspective.
For example, there's two totally independent designs- the top, and the shank.
Different manufacturing process- as well as structure. We can do a hand forged shank- but for this project it would not have provided the desired results.
What this means is that an important aspect of this particular ring- and many others- is integrating different parts, that need to be made differently.
The profile of the shank will go a long way towards tying this all together.

Last thing is that it's far more informative looking at the moving pictures as opposed to a static one- sometimes a shadow can make the ring look different than it actually does.


ETA- thank you for taking your time to assist Charmy- for many reasons, this is a very important ring- so all input is gratefully accepted!

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Makes sense. Thanks David.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie I have not commented much before because I don't frankly have anything helpful to add, I have just been eagerly awating the reveal! But I do want to say I am happy *you* are happy. I hope this iteration makes your heart sing. Will you see it in person before the stones are set?

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Charmy you managed to grab a clear screenshot of the thing - colour me impressed by that, first off...

#1: I *think* it's going to be just a flattened solid block of metal beside the last pair of stones (engraved with an indent). The final polish should smooth out the ridges, and I'll be watching for how it looks after that polish! This area was something I was very worried about - I did confirm that the insides of the engravings on either side of the endprong will be polished clean and smooth, no jagged lines or sharp edges or protrusions.

My concern here is that one of two things happens: either it's a solid block area, with the indent engraving, and is smooth *and* preserves this first trio of outlines in profile, *or* it looks like the second, with the "fillet" completely cut out. I don't actually know if a cast shank with a complete cutout would be possible (structurally durable) with this design and handforging the trellis part without extending it down the inside of the shank like LD's ring, or doing a fully tri-wire design? And since there's no trellis cage around the end-stone I can't tell if a full cutout would look good...



2#: I *definitely* want everything nicely rounded - in the sense of no sharp angles anywhere there aren't supposed to be (which is nowhere on the shank), all lines and transitions from flatter to curvier smooth and symmetric around the ring. I know polishing will smooth everything out and curve everything more, I don't have a feel for how much though... The insides of the shank will be curved more, too.

Did that make sense? It makes sense in my head but putting it on paper...


RD thank you for the elaboration on the polish. It'll be nifty to have the "before" and "after" final polish, to see just how much proportions and lines can change w/ a smoothing polish - not just the shinyness!


Dreamer thank you I won't see it in-person before the stones are set - it's apparently already at the factory for setting! I do feel comfortable with what we've got from the video and conversations though, and I'll be looking out for the things Charmy brought up (and I think David will as well, even before I hear about it!) I can't wait to see it done, and I have fingers and toes crossed for a smooth sail home!

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

OMG.

Just got an email - it's gonna be done tomorrow!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie I have not commented much before because I don't frankly have anything helpful to add, I have just been eagerly awating the reveal! But I do want to say I am happy *you* are happy. I hope this iteration makes your heart sing. Will you see it in person before the stones are set?

Just my opinion here....but I think that would be a bad idea- for a few reasons.
1) as this thread shows, looking at a partially finished piece will leave some very important questions unanswered
2) It would be way easy to mess up a non set ring like this- even a small bend in the wrong place can really mess things up.

YES- I'm also very excited to see the finished piece- when the factory foreman just called to tell me it's all set and will be ready tomorrow- he said HE thought it looked great- which is unusual ( in a positive sense)

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I am so excited to see this!

 

[SparklyOEC]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I'm excited for you Yssie and can't wait to see the ring!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Can't wait to see it, Yssie, and I do hope it is exactly what you hope for!!!!

 

[missy]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I am so excited for you Yssie!!! Hoping it exceeds your wildest dreams!!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Is there anyone among us that doesn't believe in Christmas miracles now?

Hoping you LOVE this version of the ring - can't wait to see it!!

 

[wakingdreams53]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Looking forward to the final product! I truly hope you'll be happy with the results

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Dreamer thank you I won't see it in-person before the stones are set - it's apparently already at the factory for setting! I do feel comfortable with what we've got from the video and conversations though, and I'll be looking out for the things Charmy brought up (and I think David will as well, even before I hear about it!) I can't wait to see it done, and I have fingers and toes crossed for a smooth sail home!

Since you live so close, I think it would have been good to see it in person before the stones were set, you could likely have taken a trip to visit. I think you are saavy enough to see what it would become even in an unfinished state, and you are not a typical consumer. But you will see it finished in person soon enough! I admit, to my relatively untrained and admittedly unnuanced eye, the new setting and old do look very similar. I look forward to seeing a comparison side by side so the differences are more easy for me to see. I think it is fair to say this reset is an exercise in the fine arts of nuance and precision, two things I have trouble seeing in settings unless it is explicily pointed out. But you can see the changes and differences, and that is what matters. I am very eager to hear your thoughts and to see a pictorial comparison!

 

[slg47]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Dreamer thank you I won't see it in-person before the stones are set - it's apparently already at the factory for setting! I do feel comfortable with what we've got from the video and conversations though, and I'll be looking out for the things Charmy brought up (and I think David will as well, even before I hear about it!) I can't wait to see it done, and I have fingers and toes crossed for a smooth sail home!

Since you live so close, I think it would have been good to see it in person before the stones were set, you could likely have taken a trip to visit. I think you are saavy enough to see what it would become even in an unfinished state, and you are not a typical consumer. But you will see it finished in person soon enough! I admit, to my relatively untrained and admittedly unnuanced eye, the new setting and old do look very similar. I look forward to seeing a comparison side by side so the differences are more easy for me to see. I think it is fair to say this reset is an exercise in the fine arts of nuance and precision, two things I have trouble seeing in settings unless it is explicily pointed out. But you can see the changes and differences, and that is what matters. I am very eager to hear your thoughts and to see a pictorial comparison!

I agree with Dreamer...looks very similar to me? but I know DBL will fix it for you if it is not exactly what you want. I hope it /is/ exactly what you want though! I can't wait to see pics! you must feel naked without a ring??

 

[Imdanny]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Charmy you managed to grab a clear screenshot of the thing - colour me impressed by that, first off...

#1: I *think* it's going to be just a flattened solid block of metal beside the last pair of stones (engraved with an indent). The final polish should smooth out the ridges, and I'll be watching for how it looks after that polish! This area was something I was very worried about - I did confirm that the insides of the engravings on either side of the endprong will be polished clean and smooth, no jagged lines or sharp edges or protrusions.

My concern here is that one of two things happens: either it's a solid block area, with the indent engraving, and is smooth *and* preserves this first trio of outlines in profile, *or* it looks like the second, with the "fillet" completely cut out. I don't actually know if a cast shank with a complete cutout would be possible (structurally durable) with this design and handforging the trellis part without extending it down the inside of the shank like LD's ring, or doing a fully tri-wire design? And since there's no trellis cage around the end-stone I can't tell if a full cutout would look good...



2#: I *definitely* want everything nicely rounded - in the sense of no sharp angles anywhere there aren't supposed to be (which is nowhere on the shank), all lines and transitions from flatter to curvier smooth and symmetric around the ring. I know polishing will smooth everything out and curve everything more, I don't have a feel for how much though... The insides of the shank will be curved more, too.

Did that make sense? It makes sense in my head but putting it on paper...


RD thank you for the elaboration on the polish. It'll be nifty to have the "before" and "after" final polish, to see just how much proportions and lines can change w/ a smoothing polish - not just the shinyness!


Dreamer thank you I won't see it in-person before
the stones are set - it's apparently already at the factory for setting! I do feel comfortable with what we've got from the video and conversations though, and I'll be looking out for the things Charmy brought up (and I think David will as well, even before I hear about it!) I can't wait to see it done, and I have fingers and toes crossed for a smooth sail home!

I wonder if (and it doesn't seem to me to be an unreasonable or difficult question) is: will it look like the second picture and not the first, specifically where there is an "invisible triangle" between the outside structure and the inside bar resulting in this upside down triangle "cutout" (visual, joy technical term) perfect in the second picture. I know you don't want criticisms of the VC but it and this first picture look the same to me in this area. In other words when thIs is finished I hope this part looks exactly like it does in the second picture.

Incidentally, I think your center stone is drool worthy, and this is the first time (and hopefully not the last) I've fallen for an SI1 stone.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Dreamer thank you I won't see it in-person before the stones are set - it's apparently already at the factory for setting! I do feel comfortable with what we've got from the video and conversations though, and I'll be looking out for the things Charmy brought up (and I think David will as well, even before I hear about it!) I can't wait to see it done, and I have fingers and toes crossed for a smooth sail home!

Since you live so close, I think it would have been good to see it in person before the stones were set, you could likely have taken a trip to visit. I think you are saavy enough to see what it would become even in an unfinished state, and you are not a typical consumer.

Ditto Dreamer on this. I absolutely would have wanted to see it before the stones were set. But it will be in your hands soon enough, and I'm sure David will be happy to make any alterations in any are needed.

 

[kelpie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I have to say like Danny I am also puzzled by the inclusion of those V engraved triangular areas as I though that was what you disliked about the earlier design. I am very happy that you say this ring is exactly what you want though.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

A big part of this excersise is educational- part of this is general advice....my point about seeing an unfinished piece stands
If it's very close and the client can visit, there's really no reason not to show the parts
BUT- it might very well lead to more confusion and delays. I don't advise shipping the parts, nor a 4 hour drive to see them.
There is a possibility the client might spot something they don't love- but really the main aspects should be clear before starting.
We knew exactly what yssie did not like and wanted changed- it's very clear in person even if the photos don't show the parts we needed to make differently.

 

[Blue-Seeker]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I have to say like Danny I am also puzzled by the inclusion of those V engraved triangular areas as I though that was what you disliked about the earlier design. I am very happy that you say this ring is exactly what you want though.

Count me as another person who is also puzzled by the V engraved triangles, as I thought this was the problem with the first iteration. But I thought the first ring was beautiful, and I like this version, too, so apparently I'm not able to see the tiny differences between the two, especially in photos. I do love the tiny circle of metal under the center stone. That's a pretty detail.

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

I know what you guys mean re. engraved triangles - and the way it was done on the VC was driving me nuts. I hope this is a smoother, more fluid interpretation. This is one of those things that really needs photos to describe, though, so I'm not even going to try without the camera!

I originally wanted that fillet completely cut out, like in the second pic. But I started photoshopping and it just didn't look right. I think that's because there's no cage or trellis wire under the endstone like there is on the other three, and without *something* solid nearby that endstone basket just kinda looks like it's hanging onto its neighbour for dear life, and I don't like the "floaty" look.

So the options became to do something like this, with the solid metal struct, or to bring the underside of the centerstone-wire around to the end-prong like in some of the pics I posted in the other thread. I sent both to David and he told me to let the bench take care of it, and if I didn't like what they did we'd go from there, so... that's what I'm doing! And if I don't like it when it's finished I will of course address it - lesson learnt on that front.

Re. differences - I don't have either ring and like I said earlier I really can't describe it in words, so it'll have to wait until I get them back I'm afraid! I intend to do a thorough writeup when I'm sure of how I feel about everything. The changes are *small*, as it stands now, but hopefully they will make a world of difference when I see the finished piece.

-------
Seeing the ring - I had a reply typed up and apparently forgot to post it! Long story short - I didn't ask to see it in-progress, but I get the feeling that if I'd requested to do so they'd have accommodated. RD I disagree with you here - I do think I'm educated enough and have reset enough to be able to see past the pokey parts, jagged edges, and lack of shine and sparkle, and more importantly I know that there's a lot I can't visualise, and that ultimately the only thing I can judge with confidence is the final product. So I, like you, decided that being able to see and judge that final product a week or more sooner, given the circumstances and timing, would be more beneficial than seeing the work in-progress... but that was an educated decision, not an ignorant afterthought.

I do agree that I and other longtime PSers aren't typical customers, and for the typical customer seeing in-the-process anything is more likely to fuel confusion and anxiety than anything else, so in the "typical" case not knowing what goes on at the bench is probably for the best!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Not to belabor a point- but experience has taught me that seeing a partially finished peice does not help me beyond major details that, as I've said, should already be ironed out.
The small details change so much from the stages we've looked at to the final finish- but anyone who wants to ask their jeweler to send an unfinished piece, have at it ! ( but that's one thing we would not offer)

 

[CharmyPoo]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

If it helps .. I put side by side for you to photoshop.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Yssie it is perhaps one nice benefit of CAD -- I have seen situations where a wax is sent to a client pre-casting. Obviously you would not want this ring sent to you in the mail, but fir crazies like us drive *could* be worth it in this situation, where you have been through so much. But I also see why you would not opt for that here. You will see it soon enough!

I can see the subtle changes in the comparison Charmy posted. Especially in how tightly the stones will hug the finger.

 

[Blue-Seeker]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

If it helps .. I put side by side for you to photoshop.

This is very helpful. The new version looks much more balanced and even. The arc of the stones across the finger is more graceful, too. Very, very pretty!

 

[Mike R]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Not to belabor a point- but experience has taught me that seeing a partially finished peice does not help me beyond major details that, as I've said, should already be ironed out.
The small details change so much from the stages we've looked at to the final finish- but anyone who wants to ask their jeweler to send an unfinished piece, have at it ! ( but that's one thing we would not offer)

For years I tried to discourage clients from seeing a piece before it was 100% finished, first impressions are so darn important and a dull fire stained tangle of wires really doesn't look very pretty to most.

Like Yssie, a lot of people are pretty used to how an unfinished ring looks now due to pictures and video available online, so as long as a client knows what to expect I don't see any problem in them seeing the ring unfinished or showing them pictures.
In this case Yssie did see the ring prior to setting (in a YouTube video) and was happy to move on with setting the diamonds.
It can really add to the experience of owning a piece to see the amount of work it took to create it.

Good luck trying to get some work done today Yssie, you must be very excited!

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Thanks Charmy, that's actually a good side comparison - some of the differences are visible -

1. The rise of the shank shoulder all the way up to the endstone basket in the DBL

2. The endstones are angled more in the DBL, making that rise in #1 more natural

3. This one's tough to explain... the difference in how the shank struct meets the bottom of the trellis wire to look *integrated*. This "meet point" can't be a soft curve or gentle corner - it really needs to be a super sharp corner, and you can see that it is in the rough of the DBL at the yellow arrow (and hopefully remains as such on the final version - if not that's something I'll most likely have them re-finish as I just can't see it working without). It's backward on the VC! The VC actually has three corners - the yellow arrow, the endprong/shank meet, and then the endprong/basket meet, and it looks - choppy, for lack of better description




4. The profile view (if you're looking down the shank) is different, too, thanks to copying the WF shank with the taper. In the VC there *looks* like there's a taper from endprong down the shank if you catch the light at the right angle, because of the triangular engravings, but in reality there isn't - and if you don't catch the light properly you saw this clearly, like in the paintjob on the L. From the video you can see that the DBL shank actually *does* taper, like the WF (like in paint on the R) - the triangular engraving is only on the side profile, it doesn't "fake" the taper from the shank-down view




5. Going on #4, in the pic and in the video (I can't grab a good screenshot) you can see how the WF and DBL wires come together under the shank, whereas in the VC they stay separate. In the WF the trellis underwires "swoop outward" significantly, like Haven talked about in the other thread - in this fivestone design the swoop can't be as significant because the wires take longer to reach their destination (centerstone instead of sidestone) so the angle they make with the shank is less than in the WF, but forcing them to come together will highlight what "swoop" there is




5. More delicate, *rounded* baskets keep the curvy "trellisy" feel

6. The curves of the trellis itself are gentle and smooth on the DBL, more sharply angular on the VC - the DBL trellis wire actually curves *more* but the transitions are more gradual

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Thanks Mike- I'm not suggesting to hide anything. If a client really wants to see photos of a piece during production- and it's possible, why not?
If a seller is making a fair amount of rings, it is not possible to photograph every single piece in production- as it will slow things up too much if everyone wanted to see the stages along the way- thankfully most clients don't.

We've sent many waxes to clients- totally different than a handmade wire piece.

Thanks for the photos Charmy- they help a lot.


ETA- Cool yssie!!

FYI we never gave the factory any other ring besides the five stone- so any resemblance of the shank to another ring is coincidental

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

RockdiamondI am going to say that I find your repeated involvement in this thread a little disconcerting. I wonder if Yssie or other consumers will feel comfortable saying what they really think knowing that you will come in to defend or explain everything the moment anything that sounds like a criticism is uttered? It has happened a few times already in this thread. And who knows how it will progress from here.

My preference in threads like this is for the vendors to keep slightly behind the scenes so that consumers can speak freely and have a natural conversation, and so the thread does not seem like a commercial for a vendor, which I KNOW is not Yssie's intention, she wants to educate and inform her fellow consusmers. But it could inadvertently seem like a big commercial for DBL with RD popping in so much, and especially answering questions or comments that were not directed at him. I don't think that such a heavy presence benfits us, or your business RD. I know your only intention is to help, but I am afraid it could be having an unintended negative effect here?

 

[yssie]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

Well, I just stomped all over my own request despite my last post (which I do hope is more helpful in explaining some of the things I was trying to describe) I'd really like to keep this thread focused on this piece, and get opinions/thoughts/ideas on this one as its own entity. I'll start a new comparison thread when everything's over and I have the finished piece(s)!


Dreamer We're on the same page. I've learnt that for *me* to be comfortable my options are to get a CAD or wax, get detailed sketches, or follow along with the actual manufacturing with veto rights. The more the merrier, but any of the above is sufficient.

Part of the reason I tried handforging again was that it was one of DH's original requirements... another part is that having experienced the sort of velociraptor prongs only possible by shaping bits of wire I just couldn't give them up!!

Mike You're absolutely right, seeing everything that goes into it really adds to the experience! It's quite incredible to watch - even some of the simplest designs are so complicated when you break down what goes into them!

 

[galeteia]

Re: A hanforging journey - Five-Stone Eight-Prong trellis by

RockdiamondI am going to say that I find your repeated involvement in this thread a little disconcerting. I wonder if Yssie or other consumers will feel comfortable saying what they really think knowing that you will come in to defend or explain everything the moment anything that sounds like a criticism is uttered? It has happened a few times already in this thread. And who knows how it will progress from here.

My preference in threads like this is for the vendors to keep slightly behind the scenes so that consumers can speak freely and have a natural conversation, and so the thread does not seem like a commercial for a vendor, which I KNOW is not Yssie's intention, she wants to educate and inform her fellow consusmers. But it could inadvertently seem like a big commercial for DBL with RD popping in so much, and especially answering questions or comments that were not directed at him. I don't think that such a heavy presence benfits us, or your business RD. I know your only intention is to help, but I am afraid it could be having an unintended negative effect here?

I was just thinking exactly this, and every time RD jumped in to answer questions not directed at him, it made me very uncomfortable. I understand that DBL is the vendor involved, but this thread is about Yssie and her ring, and it creeps me out a little that he's swooping in all the time putting what sounds to *me* like a PR spin on everything.

This thread is not an ad for DBL. Yssie's SMTB thread when she presents the finished is a more appropriate venue for that, IMO.