Advice: My WF ACA diamond vs this Jewerler's GIA

[Johnbt]

If you aren't comfortable taking your new WF diamond to the jeweler's shop for a side by side comparison, I suggest you take it or wear it to any mall jewelry store and look at it under their showroom overhead lighting.
_______________________

"Yes i have done a lot of research in the forum and i have seen a lot of people are happy with their super ideals but who is to say they are just not brainwashed by marketing"

We've had a WF ACA since last April. Ignoring how much we like it for the moment, consider how many compliments she continues to receive from strangers, coworkers from other offices, and casual acquaintances. They don't know what brand it is or where it was purchased so they clearly haven't been brainwashed by marketing. They're just reacting to what they see.

 

[MissGotRocks]

The super ideal vendors offer a money back guarantee and a great trade in policy on their stones. If they were selling something that wasn't good, do you think they would want their stones back? No, they would all want final sales and buyer beware.

I had an AGS0 diamond that I traded in for an ACA. I too was a bit skeptical and fought that battle in my mind for years - were they really that much better? In terms of precision and light performance, there was little comparison in my opinion. I had the previous stone for ten plus years and had seen it in all types of lighting environments - I knew that stone! It was a beauty but the super ideal cut stone was so much sharper. Again, everyone has different criteria for diamonds and I respect all of that. I can just tell you from personal experience that there was quite the appreciable difference.

To the OP, lighting does make all the difference. No diamond will perform to its potential in bad indoor lighting. They are, after all, mirrors that can only reflect back their environment. I find the super ideal cut stones though will reflect back in the dimmest of lighting in places you would least expect. However, I think sometimes the expectation is that they will just jump out of the box at you. Just bear in mind they can only reflect the lighting, wall color and clothing they are in. Take your new ring outside, to the grocery stores, under the cabinets, etc. to give it a good test drive in terms of light performance. You will see it varies from place to place. The good news is that if you are still not sold on it, you can return it. You are not 'stuck' with something that doesn't wow you!

 

[OoohShiny]

Take your new ring outside, to the grocery stores, under the cabinets, etc. to give it a good test drive in terms of light performance.

Just be VERY, VERY CAREFUL not to drop it when outside, even more careful than inside and standing/sitting on a carpeted area!!

 

[Johnbt]

"Take your new ring outside, to the grocery stores, under the cabinets, etc."

One place that surprised me was Pottery Barn. They have a high ceiling and compensate for it by using row after row of small spotlights. Toss in the hanging lights and the shelf lighting and rings really pop.

 

[rockysalamander]

In diamond world, the term "super-ideal" is abused and used for marketing. So, there are many vendors that claim to sell super-ideals, but they are (at best) well-cut stones selected from the wholesale market within a set of criteria they select (usually table, depth, maybe crown angle, color and clarity). So, many vendors use and abuse the term to make a sale, it dilutes the true meaning.

However, when experienced PS members use the term, it means a stone that is cut from rough to finish within tight geometric rules...and...with a higher level of precision. That precision reduces leakage even more. These are stones are cut for performance, not weight retention alone. These stones are sold with written proof of performance and disclosure of what makes them work. Here some information https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/news/what-is-a-super-ideal-cut-diamond/.

Stones from the large, open marked can be good performing. They can be beautiful. But, they cannot be super-ideal. If a particular person happens to prefer a very brilliant (white light) modern round diamond, you would likely not like super-ideals. You likely prefer 60/60 diamonds.

You'll see threads where folks say they are seeking "super ideal proportions". There is no such thing. There are effective angles/proportions and not. This is really a short-cut way of saying they want ideal-proportions.

There have been many threads comparing GIAxxx and WF vs. HPD here on PS. I can't find them all, but here is one.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-needed-deciding-between-wf-and-cbi.239329/
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...on-and-milgrain-differences-hpd-vs-bg.243493/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/showdown-bg-1-716-f-vs2-wf-1-876-g-vs1.244676/

 

[sstephensid]

SuperIdeal diamonds are more expensive for a reason. There are many consumers on this site that are extremely happy with their purchase. I would recommend using the search feature to find posts of consumers that have experience with SuperIdeal purchases before throwing out assumptions. Would you rather drive a Ferrari or a Volkswagen?

Really? The difference between a GIA ex/ex/ex with great proportions/an AGS000 (but not “super ideal”) and a super ideal is comparable to a Volkswagen and a Ferrari? Lol

 

[jp201845]

Really? The difference between a GIA ex/ex/ex with great proportions/an AGS000 (but not “super ideal”) and a super ideal is comparable to a Volkswagen and a Ferrari? Lol

I was comparing SuperIdeals to non SuperIdeals with less than desireable proportions. It comes down to personal preference, I would rather drive a Ferrari and you would rather drive a Volkswagen lol

 

[sstephensid]

I was comparing SuperIdeals to non SuperIdeals with less than desireable proportions. It comes down to personal preference, I would rather drive a Ferrari and you would rather drive a Volkswagen lol

How did you gather that? I think wild exaggeration isn’t going to sway people that superideals are in fact worth it. It makes them doubt your words even more.

 

[OoohShiny]

I was comparing SuperIdeals to non SuperIdeals with less than desireable proportions. It comes down to personal preference, I would rather drive a Ferrari and you would rather drive a Volkswagen lol

Does a Chiron count as a VW, given VW own Bugatti IIRC? lol

 

[LinSF]

I'd encourage you to get them side by side. I've never compared a GIA ExExEx with a super ideal, but I am one of few who has had the pleasure of comparing two super ideals. I have seen two ACAs and a CBI side by side, similar specs, unmounted, and under the same light and could see a difference in the stones. I'm suspecting you will be able to tell a difference and like one over the other.

I think the people who prefer flashes of light are also those who prefer other shapes like step cuts where the light return is slightly different. I thought I might too until I saw the scintillation in the super ideals.

There's only one way for you to compare, and that's to bring the ACA to the jeweler for a side by side!

 

[jp201845]

How did you gather that? I think wild exaggeration isn’t going to sway people that superideals are in fact worth it. It makes them doubt your words even more.

This is a forum where people have opinions, I have mine and you have yours. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my view is the right one. Some may like it others might not.. like yourself. My apologies if my comparison was not realistic.

 

[lovedogs]

This thread has gone a bit off the rails, but I think a few points are worth repeating.

Everyone's tastes and preferences are different. If OP was wow'ed by the Jewelers stone and not by the ACA, it's entirely possible she prefers 60/60 stones. There's nothing "wrong' with that! I just want to see OP compare apples to apples in case it's just the Jewelers lighting that's making the stone look amazing vs home lighting making the aca look only "ok".

That said, it's just false to call super ideals (true ones like ACA/CBI) a "scam" or "gimmick". Not everyone will agree that they are worth the premium, and not everyone will be able to see the difference between a well proportioned XXX and a super ideal. However, they are the best cut stones available, period. That's just a fact in terms of light performance and science. That doesn't mean everyone wants one, but it's still true.

To say super ideals aren't actually great is like me arguing that D colored diamonds aren't actually whiter than F. Just because I personally can't see the difference doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[Gussie]

Really? The difference between a GIA ex/ex/ex with great proportions/an AGS000 (but not “super ideal”) and a super ideal is comparable to a Volkswagen and a Ferrari? Lol

I believe it's more to the tune:
GIA XXX (well cut) Porsche Boxter
AGS 000 Porsche 911
Super Ideal Porsche 911 Turbo

That's how I explained it to my husband! Only then did he get it!

 

[the_mother_thing]

I believe it's more to the tune:
GIA XXX (well cut) Porsche Boxter
AGS 000 Porsche 911
Super Ideal Porsche 911 Turbo

That's how I explained it to my husband! Only then did he get it!

EXCELLENT analogy!

 

[Johnbt]

In 2004 VW sold a Phaeton sedan that could be ordered with a V-12. They had dreams, no matter how misguided, of being another Mercedes or Ferrari.

"The Touareg was odd enough: an expensive luxury SUV from a company that was also bringing us the compact Golf. But the Phaeton was truly bizarre, as it was a full-size, long-wheelbase luxury sedan designed to compete with the Mercedes-Benz S-Class. And compete it did: The starting price of the V8 model was $65,600, while the 12-cylinder version was an almost unbelievable $95,600 -- about $120,000 in 2017 dollars."
- www.autotrader.com/car-news/volkswagen-phaeton-was-120000-12-cylinder-volkswag-272040

A new Ferrari Portofino is only $210,000. But that only gets you a twin turbo 591 hp V-8.

 

[whitewave]

I think some people will prefer a 60/60 type stone.

But also, if it has been dreary outside and your house lighting is poor, then you will have a hard time seeing what you want to see.

For instance, I have a white G colored asscher stone. It has looked straight up ivory lately because in SE Louisiana, it has been overcast and dreary and my house is old and the lighting is poor.

Is it mounted or just a stone? My best suggestion would be to wear it out everywhere and see how it performs, but don’t do that if it is in a temp ring holder!!

 

[cflutist]

I'd encourage you to get them side by side. I've never compared a GIA ExExEx with a super ideal, but I am one of few who has had the pleasure of comparing two super ideals. I have seen two ACAs and a CBI side by side, similar specs, unmounted, and under the same light and could see a difference in the stones. I'm suspecting you will be able to tell a difference and like one over the other.

I think the people who prefer flashes of light are also those who prefer other shapes like step cuts where the light return is slightly different. I thought I might too until I saw the scintillation in the super ideals.

There's only one way for you to compare, and that's to bring the ACA to the jeweler for a side by side!

I was at the same event and in a blind taste test, 3 of us could immediately pick out the CBI from the two ACAs.

 

[LightBright]

The two stones are very different flavor MRB cuts. They are quite the opposite, in fact.

On paper, a 60/60 stone like the I VS2 will have flashes of white light, it will look bright and “whiter” face up due to the shallowness. The typical yellowish tint of an I color might be well disguised by this type of cut, unless you look through the side of the stone. You may find it lacks rainbow shimmers of light called fire. (It might have fire in only some types of light for example, you will have to assess with your own eyes). The lower girdle facets at 80 percent will make the stone have thinner splintery flashes of light. The large table is a look you should be sure you notice and appreciate when assessing your pick. The diameter will be relatively spreadier (bigger) than a typical 57% table MRB because of the proportions, this means you get more bang for the buck, eking out as much diameter as possible from carat weight, hence a bigger look. I’ve had 60/60 type stones in old cuts and the one thing that annoyed me was that they were not very “3 dimensional”. Meaning they didn’t have a very attractive presence, to me, from the side. And the crown profile was not very interesting because the crown was so low. To me, the 60/60 can look flat, as in table top, in a setting.

Ok so on to the ACA. On paper, the smaller than 54.7 percent table (swoon), relatively high angled crown at 34.5, and 40.7 pavilion angle sets this stone up to be a fireball. That is, the stone will likely reflect lots of colored light flashes back at you. The lower girdle facets at 77 make the stones facets relatively fatter, which in my opinion looks awesome especially when they throw back colored light. This stone is on the shallow side of depth (61.5%) and on the shallow side of pavilion angles so it is set up to have as wide as possible diameter for the small table and larger angled crown- these particular angles/and % mean that the stone puts all the carat weight where it should be and not too much more. This is one of my favorite flavors of modern diamond cut because I value a fiery, dynamic cut. This particular stone should be lighter in color from the profile view than an I (maybe not if the I stone was graded by GIA), but possibly not whiter from the top. This particular stone is an SI1. I can see many tiny spots of inclusions in the enlarged video, including under the table. Some people can see this with their bare eyes. Some people do not want such inclusions. I have an SI1 E color Crafted By Infinity diamond and I don’t notice inclusions at all, but my stone is .94 carat and you -might- be able to see inclusions with a bigger stone. This is something you should notice and consciously decide (that you can tolerate your SI1 inclusions).

You should research White Flash trade in and buyback policies because they make the purchase of any ACA a better value, IMO. The ACA may be 20 percent more expensive up front, but to me the cut alone of a SuperIdeal is worth the extra cost. But the real value is when you want to trade up for a bigger stone. You gain that 20 percent or more back compared to a jewelry store diamond where you could lose half the value on trade up. This is a huge factor and allows you to be free to upgrade when you can afford it without losing too much of the initial value of the stone. Check out their buy back policy too.

I would get your ACA securely into the diamond holder that comes with it and bring it to the jewelry store to compare the two stones. I would not make such an expensive and seemingly permanent purchase without seeing these differences (both are very reasonable choices; both flavors of cuts have vocal fans here on PS) with your own eyes. Good luck!

 

[OoohShiny]

In 2004 VW sold a Phaeton sedan that could be ordered with a V-12. They had dreams, no matter how misguided, of being another Mercedes or Ferrari.

"The Touareg was odd enough: an expensive luxury SUV from a company that was also bringing us the compact Golf. But the Phaeton was truly bizarre, as it was a full-size, long-wheelbase luxury sedan designed to compete with the Mercedes-Benz S-Class. And compete it did: The starting price of the V8 model was $65,600, while the 12-cylinder version was an almost unbelievable $95,600 -- about $120,000 in 2017 dollars."
- www.autotrader.com/car-news/volkswagen-phaeton-was-120000-12-cylinder-volkswag-272040

A new Ferrari Portofino is only $210,000. But that only gets you a twin turbo 591 hp V-8.

The Phaeton was a W12 - and is awesome because they are unicorn rare nowadays lol

They are still stupidly expensive to fix, as you might imagine - IIRC I read someone saying that suspension was £2k a corner if it broke??

I soooo want one though lol

 

[Dancing Fire]

But there could be some proportions that may look better than a super ideal like the 60/60 people talk about here in pricescope forum which is much more brighter.

There is nothing wrong with buying a 60/60 stone, but just be sure is not one of those "flat top" 60/60 with no crown height. I bought my wife a flat top 60/60 many yrs ago and then I had it recut into ideal proportions.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...t-after-the-recut-by-infinity-diamonds.24501/

 

[LaylaR]

We work with many Bricks & Mortar jewelers in the Crafted by Infinity network and when we arrange showings we all welcome our clients to bring outside diamonds for head to head comparisons. And we find it fosters trust and transparency. In my opinion if a jeweler is confident of the quality of his product there is nothing to fear. That said, some stores may not expect or welcome the surprise, so you may want to give them a call and explain you will be bringing in another diamond you’re currently considering. You don’t have to mention where you got the diamond, just say you’d like the chance to compare it with what they’re offering. For me, as a professional, that is a perfectly reasonable customer request.

 

[EncikG]

I think the debate is whether are there some 3ex out there that are so good that there is minute differences.

The following is a 3ex from a B&M. It doesn’t have the credentials of a superideal but would people see the difference?

 

[bmfang]

I think the debate is whether are there some 3ex out there that are so good that there is minute differences.

The following is a 3ex from a B&M. It doesn’t have the credentials of a superideal but would people see the difference?

For me, this GIA XXX is likely to be a superideal if sent to AGS for grading. For one, the hearts & arrows images are quite uniform and consistent compared with other XXX’s that exhibit large clefts in the hearts and non-symmetrical arrows (though whether that is a photography issue is another question).

One can find GIA XXX’s with superideal proportions and optical symmetry. It just takes more work to find them.

 

[blueMA]

I think the debate is whether are there some 3ex out there that are so good that there is minute differences.

The following is a 3ex from a B&M. It doesn’t have the credentials of a superideal but would people see the difference?

That's a great stone. In the past, there had been more GIA 3X that were true H&A, but many of the stone were also dual certified with AGS. Nowadays, most of the well cut stones are sent straight to AGS so it's hard to find a great GIS 3X at this caliber. That stone you posted looks better than some of the CBIs and ACAs I've seen, so yes it should quality for a superideal.

And YES, there are GIA 3X stones that can't be distinguished naked eye from a branded superideal. This is a FACT but they're also not easy to find.

 

[ratatat]

I have a GIA XXX and a branded super ideal. My XXX has table 54, depth 62.2, crown 34 pavilion 40.8
I can definitely see the difference and to me it is worth paying more for. Could a random passerby notice the difference on the street? Maybe, maybe not. But having worn both every day I can see the difference, so can my husband. The super ideal is brighter and the facets are more crisp. Just my 2c

 

[Dancing Fire]

My e-ring is a GIA ExExEx with near super ideal specs and I cannot see much if any discernible difference between it and a Super Ideal.

My wife's (GOG H&A) 3.34ct was graded by GIA Ex, EX. This was before GIA had cut grades. This stone is one of the "tightest cut" you will ever see. Look at the specs b/t the min and the max.



Here's a sarin scan of the stone. Notice the specs b/t min and max.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I think the debate is whether are there some 3ex out there that are so good that there is minute differences.

The following is a 3ex from a B&M. It doesn’t have the credentials of a superideal but would people see the difference?

Look like a very nice stone.

 

[EncikG]

And YES, there are GIA 3X stones that can't be distinguished naked eye from a branded superideal. This is a FACT but they're also not easy to find.

I think the best analogy I can come up with is...
Some people prefer to fish in a private pond where the owner has curated the best n biggest fish
Whereas some people might prefer to take it on the open seas where the thrill of the hunt and patiently waiting for the catch is much more enjoyable. No doubt, they may be hard to find.

But having read through some of the older post where even trade vendors themselves have commented, sometimes it might take 1-2wks to pick out subtle differences. The search for a great 3ex might lead you back to a superideal after you have viewed so many stones....

 

[kmoro]

There is some history behind the 60/60 preference. They do have more white light return and if a 60/60 is your preference, I’m not trying to say that there is anything wrong with that!

From the Whiteflash site:

“A 60/60 profile neither guarantees good cut quality nor rules it out. Much more needs to be know about all the parameters of the diamond and whether they all work together. For much more on this topic please see our artice on 60/60 diamonds.”

“At a time before laboratory cut grading, the American round brilliant came to be characterized by a larger table size than was the traditional style in Europe. Eventually a diamond featuring a 60% table and 60% depth (so called 60/60 diamonds) became a commonly referenced standard for a well cut diamond in the dominant US market, despite the fact that Marcel Tolkowsky had demonstrated mathematically the benefits of smaller tables all the way back in 1919.
Manufacturers promoted a bigger table because they could get greater yield from the rough by cutting diamonds with shallower crowns (see ‘Effects of a Large Table Size’ below). Many people looked no further than depth and table percentages to determine whether a diamond was well cut, as there was nothing on the lab report to overall cut quality. Although tables even bigger than 60 were being cut, the 60/60 came to represent a high quality cut, despite the fact that such a combination could encompass many different overall proportion sets and critical crown and pavilion angles.”

Here is the link to the 60/60 information page if the above link doesn’t work:
https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/60-60-diamonds-1503.htm

 

[blueMA]

I think the best analogy I can come up with is...
Some people prefer to fish in a private pond where the owner has curated the best n biggest fish
Whereas some people might prefer to take it on the open seas where the thrill of the hunt and patiently waiting for the catch is much more enjoyable. No doubt, they may be hard to find.

But having read through some of the older post where even trade vendors themselves have commented, sometimes it might take 1-2wks to pick out subtle differences. The search for a great 3ex might lead you back to a superideal after you have viewed so many stones....

Somewhat true, especially for most of the newbie consumers shopping online.
Most of the virtual inventory stones are unfortunately the excess of what had been picked over by many vendors, and great ones get quickly snatched by JA, BN, etc that end up selling them at a premium. You literally have to look every day, and the hunt can be extremely frustrating or very rewarding for the cost savings.

Shopping at superideal vendors make sense for most people; as some say, it's like pressing an easy button for a guaranteed performer.