Advice: My WF ACA diamond vs this Jewerler's GIA

[Johnbt]

But can't the ray tracing report be used to narrow the field and select the most precisely cut diamonds? You know, the ones that reflect and return the most light to the eye. I don't put much stock in marketing terms, but if the accurately measured numbers are top notch they can call them what they like. They should look superb though, shouldn't they?

Aren't most round diamonds reported by GIA to be of excellent cut? I thought I read that somewhere - on the order of 70% iirc. It's like they're all well above average. And there isn't much to back it up except some crudely averaged/manipulated numbers.

Oh well, we're happy with ours. I wish the same for everyone.

 

[kmoro]

I meant Premium Select for the best bargain - they're GIA certified vetted stones that quality as near ACA miss or near H&A. Expert Selection are near ACA miss that are AGSL certified.

Oh ok - sorry! Thank you for clarifying! I agree, btw

 

[Titan7]

Wow, this got off track. I'm out as I have dog in the hunt but I will sign off with this advice.

To the OP, I think your best bet is to go see them with your own eyes and make the decision based on that because in the end that's all that matters. For sure there is a point of diminishing returns in diamonds as there is for most thing in life, for me that extra punch of a ACA SI was well worth the price of admission. For folks who don't have the time or money to fly around the country to compare near SI stones to find that "special one" I believe the SI cuts represent as close to a sure thing as you will find with minimal effort, but at a higher cost, as there is no free lunch.

Seriously, I live in So. CA, Orange County and have access to a FREAKING TON of diamonds at B&Ms and the LA Diamond Exchanges, very few SI Cuts. After spending a couple full days looking at diamonds at the LA Mart I gave up. Next went to a couple local B&M stores and they had brought in stones over about 4-6 wks but I had nothing to compare them to other than memory. I found some that were very, very nice, near SI specs. Problem??? Sure, I how can I compare 4-10 different stones from different vendors at different times who only have the stones on memo for a couple days. It would be nice if I could have everyone ship them to one place at the same time so I could look at them side by side, but then I woke up from my dream, lol. The good news for me was a had a couple AGS 000 diamonds my wife had already, these are not SI per the specs, but helped a lot. Finally it sank in, how small the market really is for premium cuts and that's when I decided to fly to White Flash, sure it cost money, but a $300 plane ticket was worth it for a $40k purchase, well, it was for me, lol. Now if I could find the near SI diamond that performs like my wife's ACA, for 80% of the ACA's price, I would have bought it in a second. Heck it may even exist somewhere in the world, but I don't have the time or money to do that exercise so I for me the Super Ideals win, YMMV.

In the end I think you can get some great advice on this forum, I did, but nobody has your eyes and nobody can see color, fire, etc in a stone the same way you will. Also remember the old phase, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Good luck with your search, I'm out.

 

[blueMA]

Aren't most round diamonds reported by GIA to be of excellent cut? I thought I read that somewhere - on the order of 70% iirc. It's like they're all well above average.

LOL, don't you think AGSL's Ideal cut would average even higher in stats? It makes sense for the cutters to try meeting the GIA3X for maximum profit, but the problem is the tricky weight salvaging pavilion twists and steep/deep combos to barely reach the criteria. It's not that they can't cut well, it's that they choose to retain the weight for profit.

Just remember "There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, ad statistics."

 

[blueMA]

Wow, this got off track. I'm out as I have dog in the hunt but I will sign off with this advice.

To the OP, I think your best bet is to go see them with your own eyes and make the decision based on that because in the end that's all that matters. For sure there is a point of diminishing returns in diamonds as there is for most thing in life, for me that extra punch of a ACA SI was well worth the price of admission. For folks who don't have the time or money to fly around the country to compare near SI stones to find that "special one" I believe the SI cuts represent as close to a sure thing as you will find with minimal effort, but at a higher cost, as there is no free lunch.

Seriously, I live in So. CA, Orange County and have access to a FREAKING TON of diamonds at B&Ms and the LA Diamond Exchanges, very few SI Cuts. After spending a couple full days looking at diamonds at the LA Mart I gave up. Next went to a couple local B&M stores and they had brought in stones over about 4-6 wks but I had nothing to compare them to other than memory. I found some that were very, very nice, near SI specs. Problem??? Sure, I how can I compare 4-10 different stones from different vendors at different times who only have the stones on memo for a couple days. It would be nice if I could have everyone ship them to one place at the same time so I could look at them side by side, but then I woke up from my dream, lol. The good news for me was a had a couple AGS 000 diamonds my wife had already, these are not SI per the specs, but helped a lot. Finally it sank in, how small the market really is for premium cuts and that's when I decided to fly to White Flash, sure it cost money, but a $300 plane ticket was worth it for a $40k purchase, well, it was for me, lol. Now if I could find the near SI diamond that performs like my wife's ACA, for 80% of the ACA's price, I would have bought it in a second. Heck it may even exist somewhere in the world, but I don't have the time or money to do that exercise so I for me the Super Ideals win, YMMV.

In the end I think you can get some great advice on this forum, I did, but nobody has your eyes and nobody can see color, fire, etc in a stone the same way you will. Also remember the old phase, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Good luck with your search, I'm out.

I agree, it's extremely frustrating to shop for a great performing stone, not just online as mentioned earlier, but local B&M will fail you miserably without great price discount. I personally had so many stones brought in until I gave up. That's why branded online superideals are easy buys for the most novice and why they're recommended often here on PS.
Anyone with a local access to HOF should check out as many H&As in person.
However, since the OP is not happy with the received ACA, it's imperative to compare and shop in person (in all lights) until a stone speaks to her for her preference.

 

[Dancing Fire]

• I favour brightness over fire
• a 59% table will make the stone appear bigger than a 55% table.

Best to you,
purplesilk

That's not true. The table size have nothing to do with its diameter.

 

[Johnbt]

"LOL, don't you think AGSL's Ideal cut would average even higher in stats? "

Could be, based on the use of ray tracing, etc. But there are stats, right? And not just the vendor's claim. I was attempting to address the statement that we only have the vendor's word that the diamond is super ideal, when in fact there are objective measurements, ray tracing, etc. to look at while making a decision while shopping.

" In my research, only the vendor desingautes super ideals"

 

[sstephensid]

"LOL, don't you think AGSL's Ideal cut would average even higher in stats? "

Could be, based on the use of ray tracing, etc. But there are stats, right? And not just the vendor's claim. I was attempting to address the statement that we only have the vendor's word that the diamond is super ideal, when in fact there are objective measurements, ray tracing, etc. to look at while making a decision while shopping.

" In my research, only the vendor desingautes super ideals"

But unlike AGS 000, GIA Triple Ex/ Colors D, E/Clarity IF, VVS1 there is no “super ideal” from GIA or AGS right? A third-party independent reputable source is *not* saying the cut quality is above and beyond an ideal.

James Allen, Blue Nile, Kay Jeweler’s could call something super ideal, could they not? Sure there’s imaging. But is there a hard and fast definition from any (good) third party that says an “super” ideal must meet x, y, z?

 

[kmoro]

But unlike AGS 000, GIA Triple Ex/ Colors D, E/Clarity IF, VVS1 there is no “super ideal” from GIA or AGS right? A third-party independent reputable source is *not* saying the cut quality is above and beyond an ideal.

James Allen, Blue Nile, Kay Jeweler’s could call something super ideal, could they not? Sure there’s imaging. But is there a hard and fast definition from any (good) third party that says an “super” ideal must meet x, y, z?

Of course it is the vendor that labels it a super-ideal. They do have criteria and it’s simply the “sweet spot” for TIC ideal performance. The vendors you mention can call something a super-ideal, but they’d be expected to say how they determined that it was super ideal.

Again, there are cuts that fall outside of these parameters that are beautifully performing stones. Having a diamond labelled “super-ideal” is just the easy button for people who want a stone that is square in the TIC range. There are also the Brilliant Ideal Cuts and the Fiery Ideal Cuts, and these are not included in ACA spec’s. It’s all about what you’re shopping for and how much risk, time, and effort you want to throw at it.

Here is the criteria used by Whiteflash when designating ACA ... the hard and fast definition that you were wondering about:

https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/

I hope that helps a bit.

 

[EncikG]

Here is the criteria used by Whiteflash when designating ACA ... the hard and fast definition that you were wondering about:
.

Here’s another example

 

[EncikG]

This is right on the edge of an ACA
In fact the symmetry might even be slightly off
What’s stopping the B&M from calling it an superideal
At 0.62c do u think u can spot the slightly off symmetry? The Aset looks pretty good would u not agree?

 

[blueMA]

This is right on the edge of an ACA
In fact the symmetry might even be slightly off
What’s stopping the B&M from calling it an superideal
At 0.62c do u think u can spot the slightly off symmetry? The Aset looks pretty good would u not agree?

Where are you finding these stones?
That's another nice stone but I personally prefer stones less than 61.8 (this alone can eliminate a lot of duds) and 57 or less table, although 58 is fine. The stone will perform admirably, but I prefer a bit higher crown for the 40.8 pavilion to be more in the "sweet spot."

 

[bmfang]

@EncikG , another great find.

GIA graded stones I would want to have actual Sarine scan data to confirm given the much more loose rounding that GIA apply to stone proportions compared with AGS. Based on the scope images, another likely candidate for super ideal, but in order to fully confirm that, I’d want a scope image of the hearts to see how they look. Super ideal stones conform to high optical symmetry, not just high levels of meet point symmetry (which is what GIA use to grade symmetry).

 

[kmoro]

This is right on the edge of an ACA
In fact the symmetry might even be slightly off
What’s stopping the B&M from calling it an superideal
At 0.62c do u think u can spot the slightly off symmetry? The Aset looks pretty good would u not agree?

Nothing is stopping a B&M store from calling this a super ideal, but if they did, I’d want to know why. Perhaps the answer is that they call anything with a nice ASET image super ideal. No, I do not think I could spot the slightly off symmetry. Yes, I would agree that the ASET looks pretty good. I’m not sure what your point is, though.

 

[sstephensid]

Nothing is stopping a B&M store from calling this a super ideal, but if they did, I’d want to know why. Perhaps the answer is that they call anything with a nice ASET image super ideal. No, I do not think I could spot the slightly off symmetry. Yes, I would agree that the ASET looks pretty good. I’m not sure what your point is, though.

I don’t want to speak for the poster. Perhaps that some ideal stones can be equal in cut quality to the “super ideal”? Especially if the vendor selling them doesnt use that term... And super ideal is a somewhat subjective term that can differ from vendor to vendor.

 

[Dancing Fire]

James Allen, Blue Nile, Kay Jeweler’s could call something super ideal, could they not? Sure there’s imaging. But is there a hard and fast definition from any (good) third party that says an “super” ideal must meet x, y, z?

Yes, From DF!..

 

[EncikG]

I think some people would swear by being able to pick out a super ideal cut while others have also chimed into say that there are individual preferences.
Do we really need the exact angles and figures to pick a stone or do we let our eyes do the picking

I’ve given u 2 examples, both do not have the superideal credentials, the first I own but passed on the second. Both would perform admirable but the second clearly has a much larger table which might appeal to some who like a 60/60 stone yet the second example still had great symmetry

I can only speak for myself, I have a BGD black and signature as well as a CBI. Perhaps age and eyesight is catching up. But I can’t pick the subtle differences between the black n signature line. With the CBI, yes it’s a great cut and I can pick the difference but again the question remains for individuals is whether one decides if those differences vs a well cut 3ex is worth the price premium

 

[whitewave]

I think some people would swear by being able to pick out a super ideal cut while others have also chimed into say that there are individual preferences.
Do we really need the exact angles and figures to pick a stone or do we let our eyes do the picking

I’ve given u 2 examples, both do not have the superideal credentials, the first I own but passed on the second. Both would perform admirable but the second clearly has a much larger table which might appeal to some who like a 60/60 stone yet the second example still had great symmetry

I can only speak for myself, I have a BGD black and signature as well as a CBI. Perhaps age and eyesight is catching up. But I can’t pick the subtle differences between the black n signature line. With the CBI, yes it’s a great cut and I can pick the difference but again the question remains for individuals is whether one decides if those differences vs a well cut 3ex is worth the price premium

You can’t forget to mention the ease, customer service and upgrade/buy back policies.

Sure, I can get a high performing diamond from Blue Nile MRB (and I did for a pair of studs), but it took weeks of finding a matched pair to my standards, with good customer service but a double the price upgrade policy.

HPD was able to match a stone to my first one in about 3 minutes lol. Easy peasy. Super ideals are super easy and for some of us who have reached a certain point in our lives, I just want to call someone up and tell them to send me a stone. I don’t like digging through databases any more. Plus, I‘m clearly a fire woman. I value fire above all else.

I absolutely can tell the difference in my super ideals vs GIA XXX and so can other people. I have been asked to take my ring off at a party and explain to someone what it is about my SI that kept catching her eye.

Not everyone cares. Not everyone likes fire. Isn’t it nice we have a choice?

 

[Dancing Fire]

I can only speak for myself, I have a BGD black and signature as well as a CBI. Perhaps age and eyesight is catching up. But I can’t pick the subtle differences between the black n signature line. With the CBI, yes it’s a great cut and I can pick the difference but again the question remains for individuals is whether one decides if those differences vs a well cut 3ex is worth the price premium

It depends, If you ask the "avg Jane/Joe" on the street She/he will swear that the $1999 1ct special at Kay's is the best looking diamond on earth.

 

[whitewave]

It depends, If you ask the "avg Jane/Joe" on the street She/he will swear that the $1999 1ct special at Kay's is the best looking diamond on earth.

Or those crazy cluster rings that add up to look like a main stone (but it’s a cluster) surrounded by tons of metal and even more cluster low quality diamonds, the $899 maul special

 

[EncikG]

I just want to call someone up and tell them to send me a stone. I don’t like digging through databases any more.

Let’s not forget the context of this thread is a local B&M. What’s better than rocking up to one and having a visual feast. I think there are some great B&M stores. CBI also has a list of dealers that carry other stones

And if memory serves me right, didn’t someone from WF state that people who buy over the internet pick super ideal but people who walk into the store actually bought an expert or even premium select instead...

 

[sstephensid]

You can’t forget to mention the ease, customer service and upgrade/buy back policies.

Sure, I can get a high performing diamond from Blue Nile MRB (and I did for a pair of studs), but it took weeks of finding a matched pair to my standards, with good customer service but a double the price upgrade policy.

HPD was able to match a stone to my first one in about 3 minutes lol. Easy peasy. Super ideals are super easy and for some of us who have reached a certain point in our lives, I just want to call someone up and tell them to send me a stone. I don’t like digging through databases any more. Plus, I‘m clearly a fire woman. I value fire above all else.

I absolutely can tell the difference in my super ideals vs GIA XXX and so can other people. I have been asked to take my ring off at a party and explain to someone what it is about my SI that kept catching her eye.

Not everyone cares. Not everyone likes fire. Isn’t it nice we have a choice?

Specifically, “I absolutely can tell the difference in my super ideals vs GIA XXX and so can other people.” - wouldn’t your super ideals, if sent to GIA instead of AGS (or if sent to both), get an ex/ex/ex rating? If for example, the vendor had been someone in another country where AGS isn’t as popular, it is definitely a possibility it would be sent to GIA instead. As we all know, GIA XXX can vary wildly.

I’m curious if all super ideal vendors recommended by PS cut their own stones. If not, wouldn’t other vendors have access to the same level of cutting? If they cut their own stones, are they (WF, CBI, BGD) the only cutters who cut to super ideal proportions?

If I had a lot of extra money, I’d definitely save my time and effort finding the perfect stone. I’d buy a 3 carat D, E, or F, VVS1-VS1 super ideal diamond from WF. But that’s not in my cards right now haha.

 

[whitewave]

Specifically, “I absolutely can tell the difference in my super ideals vs GIA XXX and so can other people.” - wouldn’t your super ideals, if sent to GIA instead of AGS (or if sent to both), get an ex/ex/ex rating? If for example, the vendor had been someone in another country where AGS isn’t as popular, it is definitely a possibility it would be sent to GIA instead. As we all know, GIA XXX can vary wildly.

I’m curious if all super ideal vendors recommended by PS cut their own stones. If not, wouldn’t other vendors have access to the same level of cutting? If they cut their own stones, are they (WF, CBI, BGD) the only cutters who cut to super ideal proportions?

If I had a lot of extra money, I’d definitely save my time and effort finding the perfect stone. I’d buy a 3 carat D, E, or F, VVS1-VS1 super ideal diamond from WF. But that’s not in my cards right now haha.

CBI cuts their own stones, yes.

 

[whitewave]

http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/web/about/

I have invitations to “meet the cutter” events. I just have to find one that works for me.

 

[whitewave]

When I first got a little pair of super ideals for some earrings, I was really disappointed...not because they didn't sparkle or weren't perfect...they did and they were. But here's the thing, I personally don't like the super precise cut ( OH horrors!). The perfect, perfect symmetry looks like they were cut by a robot. The arrows make a dark spikey pattern looking down through the table, and the table is so small it looks like a little circle.
Also, to get the perfect specs, the polisher has to cut away a good deal of the body of the diamond. ( Then of , course this allows them the luxury of cutting away imperfections, and the chances of marking up the price because now it's a VS 1 or something. In fact it probably had carbon mess all over it prior. It's deceptive). I like 60/60 because I feel like I've got a diamond with more of its original "body". I'm a rock hound originally, so I prefer having the feeling I've got a cool ROCK, even with its quirky, but natural and from the earth, imperfections.
'All face and no base' is how I refer to some diamonds that look like they've been cut to high heaven in order to catch the light a certain way.
In fact, the real secret to a diamond's beauty is the grain, and that's a matter of nature and chance. Cut can maximize that of course, but in the end, you have to judge a diamond by eye.

It’s deceptive? You really want to stick with that?

I have an SI1 and SI2 CBI.

Their VVS1 and VVS2 and priced at Vs1 prices because they object to vvs1 and vvs2 as meaningless focus on clarity.

Your post is..... odd to me.

 

[purplesilk]

That's not true. The table size have nothing to do with its diameter.

It's obvious that table percentage has to do with the table diameter not with the diamond diameter.

 

[Dancing Fire]

It's obvious that table percentage has to do with the table diameter not with the diamond diameter.

So you agree with me that a larger table "does not" make the stone look bigger, right?

 

[purplesilk]

So you agree with me that a larger table "does not" make the stone look bigger, right?

No, I don't agree with you; I was just pointing out that the table percentage is related to the table diameter not to the outer measurements of the diamond.
This video can explain what I did test comparing diamonds side by side:

 

[Forgiven888]

No, I'm just saying a lot of diamond weight is lost. And I'm NOT saying super ideals are bad, just that clarity can be improved by cutting away imperfections that would otherwise remain in a deeper stone, and that that IS an advantage for marketing.

I agree with what you are saying about different people liking different cuts but your reasoning that clarity can be improved by cutting away imperfections to improve price doesn't really make sense. The carat weight loss alone would offset the clarity gains. Also, when trying to cut for better proportions, you would have a pretty set "shape" and unless the inclusion was exactly on the outside near the edge of a diamond, you'd have a very hard time taking it out.

 

[ratatat]

I can only speak for myself, I have a BGD black and signature as well as a CBI. Perhaps age and eyesight is catching up. But I can’t pick the subtle differences between the black n signature line. With the CBI, yes it’s a great cut and I can pick the difference

Which do you prefer?