Alec Baldwin shoots two, one dead, one in hospital

[Lookinagain]

I've been very curious as to the whole "real bullet" question and I read this as part of an AP article which mentions why real bullets might be around.

DOES IT MAKE IT MORE COMPLICATED WHEN IT’S A PERIOD PIECE?

“Rust” is set in the 1880s and according to Hall, when period weapons are used “you have to use actual historic period weapons and to check the safety of those weapons. I have known live rounds to be fired out of revolvers, certainly, to make sure that they do function in a way that when you put a blank in, it isn’t going to blow up or explode in the actor’s hands.”

I don't know anything about guns, but couldn't functioning of a period piece be tested at a firing range to eliminate the need for real bullets on the set?

And this about why, aside from expense, props might be used instead of CGI

WHY DO PRODUCTIONS EVEN USE REAL GUNFIRE WHEN SPECIAL EFFECTS ARE AVAILABLE?

It is becoming more common to add in gunfire in post-production when working on the visual effects. But visual effects can be expensive and it can be easier, and cheaper, to use props. Also, Dormer says that there can be advantages to using props and blanks, like getting an authentic reaction from an actor.

I'm not sure I'd even notice a CGI gun. I might or might not notice whether a reaction from an actor was authentic or not. I'm not sure I would care though, even if I could tell.

 

[MrsBlue]

Crew member yelled 'cold gun' as he handed Alec Baldwin prop weapon, court document shows | CNN

An assistant director handed Alec Baldwin a prop firearm and yelled "cold gun" before the actor fired the weapon, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injuring director Joel Souza, according to a court document.

www.cnn.com

"Before Thursday's shooting, some crew members quit the production over concerns related to safety -- including gun inspections and Covid-19 protocols not being followed, according to the Los Angeles Times and other media reports.
Three crew members who were on the set last weekend told the Times there were two accidental prop gun discharges before Thursday.
The rounds were accidentally fired October 16 by Baldwin's stunt double after he was told the gun was "cold," two of the crew members, who witnessed the discharges, told the newspaper."

also

"Hannah Gutierrez, the armorer for the movie, had recently finished work on her first project as head armorer, she said in a September podcast interview."


So they were rehearsing and setting up the camera angles. This answers my question about why the cameraperson and cinematographer were still in the line of fire. Baldwin was handed a gun for the rehearsal and told it was cold/not loaded.

Hiring an inexperienced armorer, continuing production after 2 other accidental discharges, having real bullets on set, etc... all sound more like negligence than a true accident. I really hope they do a thorough investigation and get to the bottom of it.

My heart breaks for the grieving husband and children.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

This takes me back to reading about the making of Titanic, when James Cameron pushed the crew to work 15 - 18 hour days for an extended period of time. Most of those people had an hour or more commute at each end of the day. At least one crew member died in a traffic accident due to exhaustion. I find Cameron more culpable than Baldwin. He knew what he was doing and what could happen.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Crew member yelled 'cold gun' as he handed Alec Baldwin prop weapon, court document shows | CNN

An assistant director handed Alec Baldwin a prop firearm and yelled "cold gun" before the actor fired the weapon, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injuring director Joel Souza, according to a court document.

www.cnn.com

"Before Thursday's shooting, some crew members quit the production over concerns related to safety -- including gun inspections and Covid-19 protocols not being followed, according to the Los Angeles Times and other media reports.
Three crew members who were on the set last weekend told the Times there were two accidental prop gun discharges before Thursday.
The rounds were accidentally fired October 16 by Baldwin's stunt double after he was told the gun was "cold," two of the crew members, who witnessed the discharges, told the newspaper."

also

"Hannah Gutierrez, the armorer for the movie, had recently finished work on her first project as head armorer, she said in a September podcast interview."


So they were rehearsing and setting up the camera angles. This answers my question about why the cameraperson and cinematographer were still in the line of fire. Baldwin was handed a gun for the rehearsal and told it was cold/not loaded.

Hiring an inexperienced armorer, continuing production after 2 other accidental discharges, having real bullets on set, etc... all sound more like negligence than a true accident. I really hope they do a thorough investigation and get to the bottom of it.

My heart breaks for the grieving husband and children.

so im assuming in the US there is some govt agency in charge of work place safety that can impose fines or file serouse charges in a court of law

 

[Calliecake]

Does anyone know why they are still using blanks and bullets on movie sets?

 

[Karl_K]

Does anyone know why they are still using blanks and bullets on movie sets?

cost mostly.
Realistic cgi is expensive.
The second reason is the loud bang sets the timing for everything after that is much harder to duplicate. Some use a bell or buzzer.
Cap guns with solid barrels are also used as well as airsoft then the effects added later.
Rubber guns are used a lot also.
But even cap guns can cause hearing issues and airsoft can take out an eye or leave small bruises.
Replica guns that do nothing but look real are probably the safest thing but they are hard to get everything to look realistic.

 

[Karl_K]

I don't know anything about guns, but couldn't functioning of a period piece be tested at a firing range to eliminate the need for real bullets on the set?

Yes it could and in a properly run outfit it would be done off site at a range with proper safety protocols.

I should have read your post before typing mine it would have saved my fingers a lot of work.

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you for the explanation @Karl_K .

 

[MrsBlue]

so im assuming in the US there is some govt agency in charge of work place safety that can impose fines or file serouse charges in a court of law

General workplace safety is an agency called OSHA (occupational health and safety admin) but this is a potential crime scene so local law enforcement is involved.

OSHA may fine production for violations but I think there's lots to investigate here.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

General workplace safety is an agency called OSHA (occupational health and safety admin) but this is a potential crime scene so local law enforcement is involved.

OSHA may fine production for violations but I think there's lots to investigate here.

thank you
OSH is a very powerful govt dept here
and they would do an investigation alongside a police one and someone would dedinatly take the fall for this

 

[VRBeauty]

“Despite some industry reforms following previous tragedies, the federal workplace safety agency in the US [the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, or OSHA] is silent on the issue of on-set gun safety. And most of the preferred states for film and TV production take a largely hands off approach.”

States mostly defer to union guidance for on-set gun safety

The film industry and its unions provide guidelines on how to deal safely with prop guns on movie sets.

apnews.com

New Mexico has its own OSHA program - which is allowed under federal law as long as the state requirements are at least as federal requirements. However, the state program largely just adopts the federal restrictions except for requirements pertaining to a few select industries. Film and TV production is apparently not among the exceptions.

https://www.blr.com/workplace-safety/safety-administration/osha--in-new-mexico

 

[MrsBlue]

They're silent on gun safety yet still levy fines when on-set gun accidents happen? That seems like a strange way to handle things but I'm glad they're still somewhat involved.

These examples from the article seem like wrist-slaps. Too sad.

"Actor Brandon Lee died in March 1993 after he was shot in the abdomen while filming a scene of “The Crow.” Lee was killed by a makeshift bullet that remained in a gun from a previous scene. The U.S. Occupational Health and Safety Administration fined the production $84,000 for violations after the actor’s death, but the fine was later reduced to $55,000.

In 2005, OSHA fined Greystone Television and Films $650 after a crewmember was shot in the thigh, elbow and hand. It turned out that balloon-breaking birdshot rounds were in the same box as the blanks that were supposed to be used in rifles."

 

[redwood66]

The one who pulled the trigger is at fault with any firearms incident. Fundamental firearms rules were broken.
Him being the director puts him 2x responsible.
From what is coming out there were other non-lethal incidents before this one with firearms on the set that should have thrown up a huge red flag to stop and fix before someone gets killed..
That makes him 3x responsible and irresponsible for not fixing the issues.

This is absolutely correct. Being an actor does not absolve one from the responsibility of handling a firearm properly, and checking it themselves even if it was just checked in front of them. Anyone who handles firearms responsibly knows this. I will not allow a pass to any actor just because there's "someone else" who's supposed to do it. If that is the thought process then that actor should not be in a movie where they handle firearms. Especially when some of them are the loudest voices against private firearm ownership - which is beyond hypocritical IMO. It's a horrible tragedy that could absolutely been avoided.

It sounds like this set was a mess all around.

 

[Mreader]

It’s even worse then I thought. Confirmed real bullet. Lots of ammo found on set. They admitted to not checking the gun fully (the six holes in the cylinder - the prop person only recalls seeing three). Also reports of them doing target shooting. My guess is that they were shooting for fun when not filming which makes it even more insane that the weapons weren’t quadruple checked before being used on set. It’s awful. I bet he just flipped the revolver which just shows half the rounds and handed it over. What a travesty.

 

[Karl_K]

This is even crazier than I suspected.

 

[Begonia]

What. A. Mess.

 

[missy]

Sadly I am not surprised at all. And I stand by my initial thoughts. All who were involved in producing and financing the production are guilty as is Alec Baldwin who not only held and shot the gun but was directly involved in the financial decisions to cut corners and sloppy with safety measures.

IMO he should be prosecuted.
(Of course he won't be but we shall see).

In case you think I have any feelings (dislike or otherwise) towards him I do not. I know very little about him and have no skin in the game so to speak. Just an objective observer seeing how this entire production was horribly handled.

And there should be consequences to actions especially actions resulting in someone's death.

 

[dk168]

The latest newspaper articles I read mentioned allegedly live rounds were found on set, and the gun might have been used for target practices using live rounds during downtime by members of the crew off set, or something in that line.

DK

 

[missy]

Alec Baldwin and not-Spanish wife’s sickening act for sympathy

After parading around Vermont all weekend, staging a bizarre, impromptu roadside press conference and then posting happy-family Halloween portraits on Instagram, Alec Baldwin and his insufferable f…

nypost.com

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Alec Baldwin and not-Spanish wife’s sickening act for sympathy

After parading around Vermont all weekend, staging a bizarre, impromptu roadside press conference and then posting happy-family Halloween portraits on Instagram, Alec Baldwin and his insufferable f…

nypost.com

I think Spirit Baby has the right of it.
Could they be any more unpleasant.

 

[Begonia]

Alec Baldwin and not-Spanish wife’s sickening act for sympathy

After parading around Vermont all weekend, staging a bizarre, impromptu roadside press conference and then posting happy-family Halloween portraits on Instagram, Alec Baldwin and his insufferable f…

nypost.com

Whoa! Lethal article. Fitting.

 

[Ionysis]

This point in the NYPost article is very compelling:

“If that scene required [Baldwin] to put the gun to his head and pull the trigger, I’m sure he would have taken a look inside the gun. Wouldn’t you?”

says it all really.

 

[Mreader]

I’m curious if anybody saw the interview last night with Baldwin and what their thoughts are.

 

[Rfisher]

He’s saying he didn’t pull the trigger?
is that a philosophically or figuratively or metaphorically speaking, or is he being literal?

 

[Karl_K]

He’s saying he didn’t pull the trigger?
is that a philosophically or figuratively or metaphorically speaking, or is he being literal?

It is often claimed by murderers, but I didn't pull the trigger it just went off....
However....
Based on the type of movie and info released they were most likely single action revolvers which have to be cocked as well as the trigger pulled.
It is not unknown for originals when in bad shape to fire when the hammer is not cocked all the way then released to fly forward. This is taught as part of the manual of arms for them by any decent instructor.
Modern copies have a hammer block or transfer bar safety added to prevent that from happening.
So if it could happen is a open question that investigators will need to answer.

 

[kenny]

If you're talking about the one for ABC with George Stephanopoulos, I saw it.

I'm astonished he agreed to be interviewed!
I think anything he says can later be held against him in court.

For this reason, aren't potential suspects advised by their lawyer to say nothing?

 

[Mreader]

He’s saying he didn’t pull the trigger?
is that a philosophically or figuratively or metaphorically speaking, or is he being literal?

He was being literal. He said he had the hammer cocked and when he released it and went off. I wonder if it was a hair trigger because that doesn’t seem very possible. But investigators will probably be able to tell when studying the gun.

 

[Karl_K]

If you're talking about the one for ABC with George Stephanopoulos, I saw it.

I'm astonished he agreed to be interviewed!
I think anything he says can later be held against him in court.

For this reason, aren't potential suspects advised by their lawyer to say nothing?

ego
He thinks he is above the law.

 

[missy]

I’m curious if anybody saw the interview last night with Baldwin and what their thoughts are.

I saw a few minutes of it. Wow, the worst day of "his" life. Just wow. Self absorbed beyond.
I think the same thing I thought before. He is responsible as is everyone who cut corners on that project.
Period.

 

[seaurchin]

I haven't kept up on this whole thing that well and imo Alec Baldwin is a giant pig anyway. However, I still can't help but sympathize to some extent because I can't imagine what it would be like to have to live with knowing you accidentally (even if negligently) ended someone's life. Of course it's not nearly as tragic as what happened to the victim or the victim's family though.