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An unpleasant preloved purchase

I've sold stones where I haven't noticed something like that, say the person selling it louped it ages ago and it was fine, and then they put it next to or in with other stones, the gem jar gets bumped and the stone gets a tiny scratch, or chip or new inclusion from smacking against the other stones.

If you don't like it then you should be able to get a refund provided they are willing to give you a refund unless it was stated up front that it was a final sale - some people refuse to give refunds.

If you send it back for a refund you run the risk of having no stone and no refund, I've had a vendor (not a private person) do that to me and had no sapphire and was out of pocket thousands of dollars.
 
There's a difference between eye clean and loupe-clean -- and in my own experience in the CS world, colored gem clarity is based what can be seen by the naked eye.

In this instance, the buyer says the feather is visible with a 10x loupe and very hard to find without the loupe. If correct, to my way of thinking, this equates to the sapphire being eye-clean such that no inclusions are readily visible to the naked eye.

OP, in your email exchanges, did the seller explicitly represent the sapphire as loupe-clean?

Is it possible there was a disconnect in your communications such that your clarity questions assumed loupe inspection and the seller's answers were based on naked-eye clarity standards?
 
It is a beautiful stone for a good price. It’s a very tiny flaw that can probably be polished out. You will not notice it when it’s set. A natural will always have a flaw when you look at it under magnification.

Do you have buyer’s remorse? Would you loved the stone if it did not have a scratch?
 
Thanks everyone. This will be my last post unless the seller has contacted me.

I asked her any feathers or cracks on the stone before I paid the stone. She replied " It is a beautiful stone with no feathers, cracks or chips and no inclusions notable with a 10x loupe."

This is not a buyer's remorse. The item is not as described.

I hope everyone staying safe.
 
If it's the one I think it is (I've been considering the other sapphire she is selling), then she's posted on her Preloved thread today. It might be worth trying to get hold of her on there if you're struggling via email.
 
Can you see it face up? It wouldn't make much sense to cut it out as then the stone would no longer be round, and if it can't be seen with the eye face up than I wouldn't do anything with it. How often to people examine a girdle with a loupe once a stone is set?
Something like what I can make out in your photo would have no impact on the integrity of the stone.
 
@StephanieLynn @soxfan @marymm @pwsg07 , thank you for your responses; they restored confidence that my full name (which I never reveal in pre-payment conversations on eBay, etc.) and address are not revealed to a seller before s/he receives PayPal's confirmation of payment -- unless I choose to provide that info to the seller beforehand.

Your disappointment is palpable, @pwsg07 . It's not obvious to me from your posts here what you would like the seller to do now (e.g., refund of purchase price or a discount from the purchase price?), so I hope you have conveyed whatever-it-is to her & even tho' the listing advised prospective buyers that this was a final sale (absent agreement re an escrow service, a possibility that it seems wasn't discussed), that you two can reach a "meeting of the minds."

P.S. re this:
pwsg07 said:
* * * I didn't' ask to insure the stone. I think the USPS is very reliable and I have not problem with USPS so far.
Click to expand...
I highly recommend that you do not forgo insured mailing/shipping of an item that costs more than you are prepared to nonchalantly kiss goodbye. Also, for the reasons explained by @soxfan in her post at #14, please do not resent a seller for whom insurance is a condition of the sale.

I too have always had positive experiences with using the US Postal Service -- but think how utterly lousy you would feel had the sapphire not arrived. The minimal cost of insurance is a small price to pay to avoid losing more than, for example, $1,100.
 
MollyMalone said:
P.S. re this:

I highly recommend that you do not forgo insured mailing/shipping of an item that costs more than you are prepared to nonchalantly kiss goodbye. Also, for the reasons explained by @soxfan in her post at #14, please do not resent a seller for whom insurance is a condition of the sale.

I too have always had positive experiences with using the US Postal Service -- but think how utterly lousy you would feel had the sapphire not arrived. The minimal cost of insurance is a small price to pay to avoid losing more than, for example, $1,100.
Click to expand...

This. Many times over.

@pwsg07 - Foregoing insurance is an absolutely dreadful idea. I would outright refuse to sell to someone who insisted that I mail an expensive stone uninsured - an international shipment, no less! - because in this case both the stone and the prospective buyer become liabilities.

Great that you've not had a bad experience with USPS thus far, and let's be honest, you probably won't moving forward. But you might. Do you really want to try your luck with thousands of dollars during a time when all postal systems are stretched to their limits?
 
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I am sorry. I can see why you would be upset, I would have been too. Going forward though if you set it, I suspect you will be unable to see the feather. Also if it doesn't crack during setting (I think it's got very good chances of being 100% fine to set), I think it's unlikely to get any worse.

On the postage front I actually would agree with others -- she did not have any way of knowing that youd amicably absorb the loss if it went missing in the post. And as such she protected both you and herself in the event neither of you ended up with the stone. It is likely she has the original receipts in email and planned to use these against the claim if USPS lost the package. Hence it makes sense for her to insure it for the value written on the original receipt. If anything you can see this as a positive thing, since it indicates she was planning to deal with the fallout if the package was lost (despite the pay pall friends and family transaction).
 
Actually thinking a little more about this: is it possible that she paid for the insurance (I.e. she absorbed this cost from her end of the transaction without mentioning it to you)?

And did your email a week and a half ago, mention how upset you were at the insurance?

It might be worth clearing this up, if this was the case. I think this might help both sides feel better about the transaction. (She is probably confused as to why you were upset about her doing the right thing. I've bought items shipped internationally with insurance from the US -- it cost a pretty penny and the seller has generally put that cost onto me every single time. Meanwhile I can also imagine that unexpected bills (import taxes or anything else) at this time are anything but welcome.)
 
About the Insurance issue. I Tell you why I advised you first about this the way I did in addition to what I explained in my first response and everything else the others have stated here.

I had a friend who sold a designer jacket on eBay. It was an original from the store with receipt, etc. Long story short item was sent normal mail no Insurance. Buyer files dispute three weeks later and won. Seller, my friend received a charge back. I helped my friend and found out only a couple of days later the item was received. Buyer/recipient had both the item and the money. Seller was out of everything. Had she mailed said item with tracking, Insurance etc. (It was also International mail), this would not have happened.

I am not sure what PP policies are on this but if a seller insists on Insurance whatever way they want to mail I fully respect and understand. I have the right to say no if like you I have to pay taxes and I can elect to not purchase. However, I cannot elect to ask seller to ship to me in any way or form illegal or what makes then uncomfortable.

It appears that you received a discount in the amount of what you paid for said shipping. You are saying you found out about this charge afterwards. Does this actually mean this was a tax charge from customs and not Insurance? This part is unclear to me. If so, it is illegal to have it sent any other way and also illegal to ask for that.

It is not only totally ok but expected that we obey the law. Some people claim a different amount and that is their Business but you cannot expect someone to break the law for you or have to take a total loss. You have the right to say no to the item before you pay which you did not do. Any taxes afterwards are your responsibility.
 
Canadians are at less of a disadvantage in this situation, @qubitasaurus , in that pswg07 didn't have to pay any import/duty tax for a loose stone coming from the USA. And although the USPS fee for insurance is calculated on a different sliding scale for delivery to Canada than within the USA, the cost for an insured mailing to Canada is not notably more than for insured domestic delivery. Based on the USPS website, it looks to me that the cost of insurance on the declared value of $1400 was about $26. The difference in insurance cost for the purchase price of $1150 & the $1400 declared value was less than $4 USD

If the "friends and family" payment came out of the bank account linked to his/her PayPal account, pswg07 was charged a flat fee of $2.99 CAD. If the source of those funds was a credit or debit card, then s/he was charged 2.9% of the $1150 plus a tiny 30-cent (CAD) transaction fee:
www.paypal.com

Fees | PayPal Consumer | PayPal CA

Get detailed information about PayPal's consumer fees. Find PayPal's prices for sending or receiving money, internationally or domestically.
www.paypal.com www.paypal.com

But pswg07 may be more riled about sales taxes than the insurance and PayPal fees. I'd be willing to bet that it didn't occur to the seller, a private individual who doesn't make her living via sales of her personal possessions, that pswg07 might be assessed sales tax on the declared value of $1400 rather than the $1150 purchase price (I didn't think of that until a few minutes ago).

So if pswg07 had to pay his/her province's sales tax on the $1400 before Canada Post would give over the packet, I'm hopeful it would be helpful if he let the seller know about that (if he hasn't already explained it to her.)
 
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I paid $40 USD for Global Express Guaranteed USPS service. She said she paid to insure the stone but she didn't tell me she insured it for $1400. I don't know how much she have paid for the insurance. If she is worried about losing the stone and she wants the insurance, she should have discussed with me in advance and makes an agreement first. She did the insurance and shipped the stone before letting me know and before I have paid her. It sounds unbelievable but it is the truth.

Because she claimed $1400, the taxes on the stone is $1400. But I only paid $1150 for the stone, I was expecting to pay the tax on $1150 not $1400.

I want to talk to her and return the stone.

Until now I have not received any response from her. I want to share my experience to the next potential buyer and hope they have a better communication.
 
pwsg07 said:
I paid $40 USD for Global Express Guaranteed USPS service. She said she paid to insure the stone but she didn't tell me she insured it for $1400. I don't know how much she have paid for the insurance. If she is worried about losing the stone and she wants the insurance, she should have discussed with me in advance and makes an agreement first. She did the insurance and shipped the stone before letting me know and before I have paid her. It sounds unbelievable but it is the truth.

Because she claimed $1400, the taxes on the stone is $1400. But I only paid $1150 for the stone, I was expecting to pay the tax on $1150 not $1400.

I want to talk to her and return the stone.

Until now I have not received any response from her. I want to share my experience to the next potential buyer and hope they have a better communication.
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Post this on the preloved thread where you saw the stone.
 
pwsg07 said:
I paid $40 USD for Global Express Guaranteed USPS service. She said she paid to insure the stone but she didn't tell me she insured it for $1400. I don't know how much she have paid for the insurance. If she is worried about losing the stone and she wants the insurance, she should have discussed with me in advance and makes an agreement first. She did the insurance and shipped the stone before letting me know and before I have paid her. It sounds unbelievable but it is the truth.

Because she claimed $1400, the taxes on the stone is $1400. But I only paid $1150 for the stone, I was expecting to pay the tax on $1150 not $1400.

I want to talk to her and return the stone.

Until now I have not received any response from her. I want to share my experience to the next potential buyer and hope they have a better communication.
Click to expand...

As both a seller and a buyer, I hope and expect, without discussion, that every item will be insured (of course there are exceptions like Registered mail where, IIRC, you cannot insure). As a buyer, I would feel terrible if I dissuaded a seller from insurance and the stone was subsequently lost in the mail and they took the financial hit.

If I am a seller, I insure the stone for what I bought it for - in other words, what the paperwork states from time of my purchase (whenever that was). This is because the USPS instructions say something to the effect that if the item is lost, they will require paperwork, and go by whatever the paperwork indicates as value. This means that if I sell a stone I bought years ago, a stone which has appreciated significantly, I still insure it only for what I paid, because that is the only proof I have (the reality is that if this ever happened, with a substantial increase in value, I would find another way to get it there). In the event I'm selling the stone for less than I initially paid, I still insure it for its original value, because, again, that is what my paperwork shows and that is my only proof of value to USPS, should it go missing.

The latter situation might have been what happened. Because it is LT and we're all (or mostly) a tight knit community, we typically sell things at very good prices - often for substantially less than we initially paid.
 
mrs-b said:
If that's a feather, or a mark of any kind, it's still so small to my eye as to be something easily missed by a seller. I know who the seller was, and I'd bet she inspected the gem and never saw it.
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+1
 
MollyMalone said:
Canadians are at less of a disadvantage in this situation, @qubitasaurus , in that pswg07 didn't have to pay any import/duty tax for a loose stone coming from the USA. And although the USPS fee for insurance is calculated on a different sliding scale for delivery to Canada than within the USA, the cost for an insured mailing to Canada is not notably more than for insured domestic delivery. Based on the USPS website, it looks to me that the cost of insurance on the declared value of $1400 was about $26. The difference in insurance cost for the purchase price of $1150 & the $1400 declared value was less than $4 USD

If the "friends and family" payment came out of the bank account linked to his/her PayPal account, pswg07 was charged a flat fee of $2.99 CAD. If the source of those funds was a credit or debit card, then s/he was charged 2.9% of the $1150 plus a tiny 30-cent (CAD) transaction fee:
www.paypal.com

Fees | PayPal Consumer | PayPal CA

Get detailed information about PayPal's consumer fees. Find PayPal's prices for sending or receiving money, internationally or domestically.
www.paypal.com www.paypal.com

But pswg07 may be more riled about sales taxes than the insurance and PayPal fees. I'd be willing to bet that it didn't occur to the seller, a private individual who doesn't make her living via sales of her personal possessions, that pswg07 might be assessed sales tax on the declared value of $1400 rather than the $1150 purchase price (I didn't think of that until a few minutes ago).

So if pswg07 had to pay his/her province's sales tax on the $1400 before Canada Post would give over the packet, I'm hopeful it would be helpful if he let the seller know about that (if he hasn't already explained it to her.)
Click to expand...

Is she able to get the money back in that case? If it is not an item where import taxes should have been applied, then is it possible to apply to have them refunded?

Lol I am too lazy to look but I generally expect shipping and insurance costs to come out somewhere between ~$60 and ~$200 USD and have had bills scattered all over that range. I am almost always expecting some extra (non trivial) bill to pop up when I purchase. With small items like coloured stone melee it is often pretty off putting (as my shipping bill is often similar to the price of the melee). But I occasionally see stuff 'I must have anyway :lol-2:'. Lol it is a terrible waste of money, but I have a lovely time and I am totally unrepentant about it :lol:.
 
Also wanted to add that I don’t think there is anything sinister or strange about insuring for the amount originally paid (which is likely above the pre-loved price), and without an agreement between the parties. When I’ve bought things from a vendor, or pre-loved, those items have come insured and I don’t ever remember a agreement on the amount of insurance. I also can’t imagine ever shipping something without insurance. I have had two USPS packages lost since January this year (and they had tracking). It happens.
 
I'm an Aussie so I have the same issue all the time. We have to pay taxes and duties on everything. If I pay someone for something on sale say $1000 but the seller originally paid say $1500 and they deem something to be worth that, then if it gets lost in the mail they are out of pocket the gap or the $500 regardless of what I paid for the item.

When I send items to the US sometimes I insure them for what the person paid me, sometimes more, because it's all about weighing up if the seller can afford the risk if the item gets lost in the mail....

It's a PITA that you, I, and anyone else that has to pay taxes and duties has to do so on the higher amount, but I have had to do this a lot because I buy a lot of things from overseas. It's not sinister or bad communication it's simply what some sellers and indeed vendors simply do.

At this point if time if the seller isn't answering your messages it might be better to cut your losses, I will again mention I was in a similar situation, I sent back a sapphire that was "not as described" that cost several times more than yours did and ended up with no refund and no sapphire from a vendor. Which sucks even more than having a stone that is not perfect.
 
A couple things stood out to me. Please correct me if I am wrong:

1. Insuring for the original price the first owner paid is normal. I agree with I think just about everyone here. It is done so because the owner has to use the original receipt to make any claim against the post office. So I guess I am not in agreement with the OP here. Not insuring means the seller is taking the loss if the stone is damaged in transit or is lost or stolen. I have had packages disappear in transit. Rare but it does happen. I would never ship without insurance unless I have an email statement from the buyer that he or she accepts any risk and loss, plus no returns. I might do so for something that costs less than $100 but never for something around $1K.

2. Shipping without waiting for confirmation (or is it payment) from the OP is odd. I wouldn't never ship the stone without receiving payment first. This one lies squarely in the lap of the seller. Might be poor communication as the OP states but it's not a good practice.

3. Will OP get the her tax and service charges back from the government when she returns the stone? I think so from a quick Google. Since this is a pre-loved, it is quite rare to have a return + refund policy. I thought pre-loved tends to have a All Sales is Final policy?
 
Sorry for the long thread. I promised myself I would not enter the fray here, and I may regret it. I hope I do not. I am the seller of the JW pink sapphire. The reason I am writing is because I had no idea that the OP wanted to return the stone. I would never have known this if I had not read this thread. The last email I received was a list of what she was unhappy with, but there was no request or “ask” to change anything, and I had written in LT that this was a final sale. To the OP—we know virtually nothing about each other. It is unfortunate in this world that, with very little data, we sometimes assume the other person has some nefarious motive in what they do. I had no ulterior motive in selling this stone. In fact, after you asked about chips, cracks and feathers, I took the stone to my local jeweler (unfortunately not AGA certified) to verify this, and she did.

Now, here is my dilemma. I like to think of myself as a reasonable person, and would like to make this right for you. Unfortunately, I do not think that is going to be possible, unless other readers have suggestions. First, there is the issue of sending the stone internationally. I was hesitant when you said you live in a different country, but I did as much research as I could into how to get the stone to you safely and legally. I thought there were 2 major issues to be addressed: insurance and customs. One of the options I offered you was to have Grace at JbG broker the sale. She quoted me $150 and you said no. I explained to you that I was not comfortable with your request for no insurance, and said I would cover that part of the shipping. As many have said on this thread, insuring the stone for its full worth is important, and I was especially concerned given the COVID effect on the USPS. The stone cost me $1465 originally. I had no idea that you would be charged sales tax—I assumed the major issue would have been customs. I emailed you the shipping cost and that I would cover insurance, and you said that was agreeable. Perhaps it was my misunderstanding, but I assumed that meant you were OK with me sending the stone, which is why I sent it before you sent the payment (although the 2 events were within a few hours of each other.)

As I said before, I do not know you, so I am using the available data I have. I would not want that stone to come back to me without being insured at least for what you paid for it. If it gets lost in the system, I am out $1190. I also do not know if the stone has been inadvertently nicked or chipped while being examined. There are many scam artists in the world, and I do not believe that you are one of them, but I need to explain my worst nightmare, which is that a “substitute” stone is sent. So what is the next step?
 
springerspaniel said:
Sorry for the long thread. I promised myself I would not enter the fray here, and I may regret it. I hope I do not. I am the seller of the JW pink sapphire. The reason I am writing is because I had no idea that the OP wanted to return the stone. I would never have known this if I had not read this thread. The last email I received was a list of what she was unhappy with, but there was no request or “ask” to change anything, and I had written in LT that this was a final sale. To the OP—we know virtually nothing about each other. It is unfortunate in this world that, with very little data, we sometimes assume the other person has some nefarious motive in what they do. I had no ulterior motive in selling this stone. In fact, after you asked about chips, cracks and feathers, I took the stone to my local jeweler (unfortunately not AGA certified) to verify this, and she did.

Now, here is my dilemma. I like to think of myself as a reasonable person, and would like to make this right for you. Unfortunately, I do not think that is going to be possible, unless other readers have suggestions. First, there is the issue of sending the stone internationally. I was hesitant when you said you live in a different country, but I did as much research as I could into how to get the stone to you safely and legally. I thought there were 2 major issues to be addressed: insurance and customs. One of the options I offered you was to have Grace at JbG broker the sale. She quoted me $150 and you said no. I explained to you that I was not comfortable with your request for no insurance, and said I would cover that part of the shipping. As many have said on this thread, insuring the stone for its full worth is important, and I was especially concerned given the COVID effect on the USPS. The stone cost me $1465 originally. I had no idea that you would be charged sales tax—I assumed the major issue would have been customs. I emailed you the shipping cost and that I would cover insurance, and you said that was agreeable. Perhaps it was my misunderstanding, but I assumed that meant you were OK with me sending the stone, which is why I sent it before you sent the payment (although the 2 events were within a few hours of each other.)

As I said before, I do not know you, so I am using the available data I have. I would not want that stone to come back to me without being insured at least for what you paid for it. If it gets lost in the system, I am out $1190. I also do not know if the stone has been inadvertently nicked or chipped while being examined. There are many scam artists in the world, and I do not believe that you are one of them, but I need to explain my worst nightmare, which is that a “substitute” stone is sent. So what is the next step?
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1. You took the stone to your jeweler to verify that there were no nicks, chips or feathers and she did.

2. You specified final sale in your listing.

3. You went out of your way to ship the stone internationally when it was inconvenient and and you offered to have Grace broker (which the buyer should have just paid for if she was worried.)

4. You paid insurance on the stone out of your own pocket.

I would NOT refund or accept the stone back if it were me. In my opinion, you did everything you were supposed to do and everything you DID do is not what someone who was trying to cover up a feather in a stone would do.
 
soxfan said:
1. You took the stone to your jeweler to verify that there were no nicks, chips or feathers and she did.

2. You specified final sale in your listing.

3. You went out of your way to ship the stone internationally when it was inconvenient and and you offered to have Grace broker (which the buyer should have just paid for if she was worried.)

4. You paid insurance on the stone out of your own pocket.

I would NOT refund or accept the stone back if it were me. In my opinion, you did everything you were supposed to do and everything you DID do is not what someone who was trying to cover up a feather in a stone would do.
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This.
 
IMO not only did the seller do all that is required/expected of any individual seller of preloved goods, she did quite a bit more to the benefit of the purchaser and to facilitate the international transaction.

If it were me who sold the stone, I would not address the claim of the feather; however, as a gesture of good will, I would offer to cover the additional taxes attributable to the declared $1400 value since the purchaser only expected to pay taxes on the $1150 actually paid.
 
pwsg07 said:
I asked her any feathers or cracks on the stone before I paid the stone. She replied " It is a beautiful stone with no feathers, cracks or chips and no inclusions notable with a 10x loupe."

This is not a buyer's remorse. The item is not as described.
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Have you taken the stone to a gemmologist to verify that what you think you see is indeed a feather?
If it isn't a feather (like most of us are telling you) then the item actually is as described.

You can choose to move beyond the initial slight disappointment and confidently enjoy a beautiful stone! :)
 
This thread has me kind of wondering what people expectations on shipping are.

1) If you purchase a stone and elect not to have insurance added to the shipping, who is out if the stone is lost in the mail? The shipper or the buyer?

2) When shipping to Canada and other international orders, I am often asked to show a much lower value on the package. You can only insure for what the stated value is. People do this to avoid paying a higher duty, but what happens if it's lost in the mail?

3) When stones are retuned, I notice that often the person mailing the stone back has put no insurance on the package. If it's lost in the mail, should they still expect me to refund them?

I have had people send back stones with out the gem jars I shipped them out in, and once time the person simply put the bare stone into a regular letter envelope with just a $0.50 stamp. Sometimes the stone comes back but not in my gem jar, but in one of those cheap round plastic ones. I guess if you are dealing with Walmart the maybe just toss returns in the trash as it may cost them more to return it to the shelf, but most of us are not in the same position as Walmart.

I would be interested to hear peoples replies to these questions.
 
I used to buy a lot from China.

I had the vendor declare everything was worth $50. They also sent it in their personal names so it doesn't look like a sale. More like a relative sending me stuff.

I actually think full declarations the are riskier as the package looks more valuable and attracts more attention.

I'd rather it look like junk and not draw attention.

As long as the vendor provides tracking I will wear the cost of anything getting lost. Nothing has ever been lost though.
 
PrecisionGem said:
This thread has me kind of wondering what people expectations on shipping are.

1) If you purchase a stone and elect not to have insurance added to the shipping, who is out if the stone is lost in the mail? The shipper or the buyer?

buyer

2) When shipping to Canada and other international orders, I am often asked to show a much lower value on the package. You can only insure for what the stated value is. People do this to avoid paying a higher duty, but what happens if it's lost in the mail?

that's on the buyer.

3) When stones are retuned, I notice that often the person mailing the stone back has put no insurance on the package. If it's lost in the mail, should they still expect me to refund them?

Nope. They should not. That's why you should send them a label and charge them to ship back.

I have had people send back stones with out the gem jars I shipped them out in, and once time the person simply put the bare stone into a regular letter envelope with just a $0.50 stamp. Sometimes the stone comes back but not in my gem jar, but in one of those cheap round plastic ones. I guess if you are dealing with Walmart the maybe just toss returns in the trash as it may cost them more to return it to the shelf, but most of us are not in the same position as Walmart.

I would be interested to hear peoples replies to these questions.
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