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An unpleasant preloved purchase

PrecisionGem
This thread has me kind of wondering what people expectations on shipping are.

1) If you purchase a stone and elect not to have insurance added to the shipping, who is out if the stone is lost in the mail? The shipper or the buyer?

****When I have done this, P2P sale of course - I explicitly say ‘it’s on me’.****

2) When shipping to Canada and other international orders, I am often asked to show a much lower value on the package. You can only insure for what the stated value is. People do this to avoid paying a higher duty, but what happens if it's lost in the mail?

****My local USPS will not accept international declaration amount different than the insured amount.*****

3) When stones are retuned, I notice that often the person mailing the stone back has put no insurance on the package. If it's lost in the mail, should they still expect me to refund them?

****I wouldn’t, no.*****

I have had people send back stones with out the gem jars I shipped them out in, and once time the person simply put the bare stone into a regular letter envelope with just a $0.50 stamp. Sometimes the stone comes back but not in my gem jar, but in one of those cheap round plastic ones. I guess if you are dealing with Walmart the maybe just toss returns in the trash as it may cost them more to return it to the shelf, but most of us are not in the same position as Walmart.

*****If I were a vendor I would address this the way as I see fit in my written returns policy, up to and including deductions from refund, if it bothered me enough******
 
If you ask the seller to not declare the true value than you it's on you but if the seller doesn't declare/insure than it's on them. One time I ordered a ring from the UK and was prepared to pay any duty/taxes but they sent it registered mail without telling me and I was biting my nails for almost a month until I got the package. If something had happened to the package than the seller would've had to pay me back because Ebay/Paypal would've sided with me because she did not declare/insure properly and I did inquire about it.
Paypal F&F is usually a risk that I take when I see that the person I am messaging is trustworthy but I do understand that it offers no buyer protection and the amount is what I'm willing to risk.
 
1) If you purchase a stone and elect not to have insurance added to the shipping, who is out if the stone is lost in the mail? The shipper or the buyer?
If I elect not to add insurance, it means I (as the buyer) accept any losses or damage incurred. That said, it is best for the seller to make sure the buyer understands this risk, accepts the risk and have the agreement in writing.

2) When shipping to Canada and other international orders, I am often asked to show a much lower value on the package. You can only insure for what the stated value is. People do this to avoid paying a higher duty, but what happens if it's lost in the mail?
I don't know but as a buyer, I've never requested a lower value on the declaration. When I ship stones back to the vendor, I always ask for their recommended shipping method and declaration. As a seller, I avoid this altogether by not accepting international sales (aka outside the USA).

3) When stones are retuned, I notice that often the person mailing the stone back has put no insurance on the package. If it's lost in the mail, should they still expect me to refund them?
This is crazy of the buyer to do this! The responsibility of the person returning the stone is to ensure it gets back to the seller safely unless the buyer is all right with absorbing the cost of the lost or damaged item.

I have had people send back stones with out the gem jars I shipped them out in, and once time the person simply put the bare stone into a regular letter envelope with just a $0.50 stamp. Sometimes the stone comes back but not in my gem jar, but in one of those cheap round plastic ones. I guess if you are dealing with Walmart the maybe just toss returns in the trash as it may cost them more to return it to the shelf, but most of us are not in the same position as Walmart.
This is simply rude. However one receives it, it should be returned the same way. Gem case and all. It should be packaged protectively so that it doesn't get crushed or damaged. Maybe you need to add "return instructions" or something like that on your webpage?
 
soxfan said:
1. You took the stone to your jeweler to verify that there were no nicks, chips or feathers and she did.

2. You specified final sale in your listing.

3. You went out of your way to ship the stone internationally when it was inconvenient and and you offered to have Grace broker (which the buyer should have just paid for if she was worried.)

4. You paid insurance on the stone out of your own pocket.

I would NOT refund or accept the stone back if it were me. In my opinion, you did everything you were supposed to do and everything you DID do is not what someone who was trying to cover up a feather in a stone would do.
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Soxfan, you summed it up perfectly!

You can be very particular and you can be uncommunicative, but if you are both, its almost impossible for things to go smoothly.
 
mellowyellowgirl said:
I used to buy a lot from China.

I had the vendor declare everything was worth $50. They also sent it in their personal names so it doesn't look like a sale. More like a relative sending me stuff.

I actually think full declarations the are riskier as the package looks more valuable and attracts more attention.

I'd rather it look like junk and not draw attention.

As long as the vendor provides tracking I will wear the cost of anything getting lost. Nothing has ever been lost though.
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Yeah, agreed. I think it's fairly standard practice here since the customs charge for gems is 50%....yikes!
 
PrecisionGem said:
1) If you purchase a stone and elect not to have insurance added to the shipping, who is out if the stone is lost in the mail? The shipper or the buyer?

2) When shipping to Canada and other international orders, I am often asked to show a much lower value on the package. You can only insure for what the stated value is. People do this to avoid paying a higher duty, but what happens if it's lost in the mail?

3) When stones are retuned, I notice that often the person mailing the stone back has put no insurance on the package. If it's lost in the mail, should they still expect me to refund them?
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I've shipped a lot of things in my line of work and here is what I have learned, most of it the hard way:

1. If merchandise is lost in the mail it is the Shippers problem. They are the ones who have to file a claim. The buyer never touched it, they won't be held responsible, and it doesn't matter what the buyer tells you they are 'willing to accept'.

2. Same. If you shipped it under-insured and it gets lost, you only get the insured amount back. And they will request an invoice or sales receipt as proof of value. Understating the value on a Customs form is also fraud.

3. If a buyer returns a stone with no insurance and it gets lost, the Buyer is screwed. If they want their money back, they will have to file a claim because they are the shipper. If it wasn't insured at all, they get zero...which is why it is foolish not to insure a return, no matter how much of a cheapskate you are! :lol:
 
springerspaniel said:
Sorry for the long thread. I promised myself I would not enter the fray here, and I may regret it. I hope I do not. I am the seller of the JW pink sapphire. The reason I am writing is because I had no idea that the OP wanted to return the stone. I would never have known this if I had not read this thread. The last email I received was a list of what she was unhappy with, but there was no request or “ask” to change anything, and I had written in LT that this was a final sale. To the OP—we know virtually nothing about each other. It is unfortunate in this world that, with very little data, we sometimes assume the other person has some nefarious motive in what they do. I had no ulterior motive in selling this stone. In fact, after you asked about chips, cracks and feathers, I took the stone to my local jeweler (unfortunately not AGA certified) to verify this, and she did.

Now, here is my dilemma. I like to think of myself as a reasonable person, and would like to make this right for you. Unfortunately, I do not think that is going to be possible, unless other readers have suggestions. First, there is the issue of sending the stone internationally. I was hesitant when you said you live in a different country, but I did as much research as I could into how to get the stone to you safely and legally. I thought there were 2 major issues to be addressed: insurance and customs. One of the options I offered you was to have Grace at JbG broker the sale. She quoted me $150 and you said no. I explained to you that I was not comfortable with your request for no insurance, and said I would cover that part of the shipping. As many have said on this thread, insuring the stone for its full worth is important, and I was especially concerned given the COVID effect on the USPS. The stone cost me $1465 originally. I had no idea that you would be charged sales tax—I assumed the major issue would have been customs. I emailed you the shipping cost and that I would cover insurance, and you said that was agreeable. Perhaps it was my misunderstanding, but I assumed that meant you were OK with me sending the stone, which is why I sent it before you sent the payment (although the 2 events were within a few hours of each other.)

As I said before, I do not know you, so I am using the available data I have. I would not want that stone to come back to me without being insured at least for what you paid for it. If it gets lost in the system, I am out $1190. I also do not know if the stone has been inadvertently nicked or chipped while being examined. There are many scam artists in the world, and I do not believe that you are one of them, but I need to explain my worst nightmare, which is that a “substitute” stone is sent. So what is the next step?
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Hi,

Do you mind me posting the whole email conversation? It is easier for me than to rewrite the whole thing. I won't post any personal information or name or address here. First, I don't know you went to a jeweller to confirm there is no feather or nick. You only tell me there is no feather via the email. Second, which email did you say you " explained to you that I was not comfortable with your request for no insurance, and said I would cover that part of the shipping" " I emailed you the shipping cost and that I would cover insurance, and you said that was agreeable." I don't know you are not comfortable with the insurance and I only know you covered the insurance after you sent me an email telling me that you have shipped and insured the parcel.

Although I want to return the stone, I didn't request for a return because I know it is a final sale. But I am not happy because there is a feather and it is not as described. I checked it within an hour after I have received the stone. I am a GG myself and I am quite sure it is a feather. Too bad I don't have a witness or PSer in Vancouver to proof that is the same stone if I returned it to you. I just want to stop my loss and keep the stone now because I think it is more risky for me to return the stone.
 
pwsg07 said:
Hi,

Do you mind me posting the whole email conversation? It is easier for me than to rewrite the whole thing. I won't post any personal information or name or address here. First, I don't know you went to a jeweller to confirm there is no feather or nick. You only tell me there is no feather via the email. Second, which email did you say you " explained to you that I was not comfortable with your request for no insurance, and said I would cover that part of the shipping" " I emailed you the shipping cost and that I would cover insurance, and you said that was agreeable." I don't know you are not comfortable with the insurance and I only know you covered the insurance after you sent me an email telling me that you have shipped and insured the parcel.

Although I want to return the stone, I didn't request for a return because I know it is a final sale. But I am not happy because there is a feather and it is not as described. I checked it within an hour after I have received the stone. I am a GG myself and I am quite sure it is a feather. Too bad I don't have a witness or PSer in Vancouver to proof that is the same stone if I returned it to you. I just want to stop my loss and keep the stone now because I think it is more risky for me to return the stone.
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Thank you for correcting me. I checked back in the emails and you are absolutely right. I emailed you after I sent the stone that I covered the insurance myself. I apologize for that. I really struggled with what you were asking me to do and in the end was uncomfortable with sending the stone without insurance, for the reasons the kind folks here at PS have given.
 
I send and ask to receive parcels as premium tracked and signed for delivery. I don’t ask for insurance. I have had two experiences where the claiming of insurance proved impossible. One, the parcel was opened by Customs and repacked poorly and the vase was broken. Apparently I was supposed to know that the item was damaged before accepting the parcel! I couldn’t prove that I didn’t damage it so no claim was permitted. The other was sending a necklace to the U.K. There was no record of the item being received and I was told it was still in transit. Two months went by and still not received by purchaser and the tracking had just disappeared. I again couldn’t claim.
When I send parcels overseas I try not to draw attention to the parcel so I write something boring but technically correct. I would for eg describe a diamond ring as a ladies clear colour crystal for wearing.
 
springerspaniel said:
Thank you mrs-b. I am still racking my brain to figure out what I did wrong.
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soxfan said:
You didn't do anything wrong.
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Ditto. You didn't do anything wrong.


@pwsg07 I am sorry you are unhappy with the purchase but I don't believe @springerspaniel did anything wrong. She did everything right. It's unfortunate it worked out like this with you not satisfied with the purchase. I wish it was otherwise and I hope you can still set this stone and enjoy it.
 
I think there's an element of risk and luck with any preloved purchase. Especially international ones. It perhaps isn't the best course of action for someone with very exacting standards. Nothing wrong with having these, but I would say such a buyer is better suited to a professional vendor backed up by formal return policies. Yes, you'll pay more for it, but you can't expect a preloved price with professional service. IMO.
 
MillieLou said:
I think there's an element of risk and luck with any preloved purchase. Especially international ones. It perhaps isn't the best course of action for someone with very exacting standards. Nothing wrong with having these, but I would say such a buyer is better suited to a professional vendor backed up by formal return policies. Yes, you'll pay more for it, but you can't expect a preloved price with professional service. IMO.
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Nailed it!
 
springerspaniel said:
Thank you for correcting me. I checked back in the emails and you are absolutely right. I emailed you after I sent the stone that I covered the insurance myself. I apologize for that. I really struggled with what you were asking me to do and in the end was uncomfortable with sending the stone without insurance, for the reasons the kind folks here at PS have given.
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1. Since you didn't mentioned the stone was examined by a jeweller in the email, I don't know did the jeweller actually examine the stone. May I have the name of the jeweller? I assume her name can be public since she is doing business. I am sure that the feather comes with the stone when I opened the parcel.

2. You have never expressed any worry about losing the stone without the insurance. You should have let me know you are not sending the stone without insurance. You should have let me agree all the condition or requirement before shipping the stone.

3. Since you worried about losing the stone, why did you ship the stone without getting paid? It contradicts to your worry of losing the stone or scam.

4. I request you to pay the difference on the sales taxes. It is not fair for me to pay the extra tax I didn't agree in advance. The different is 12% of ($1400-$1150) = $30 USD. If I have sold you an item that is $1000, but I declared $10000 and you have to pay the tax for $10000, do you think it is fair and will you be happy to pay the tax for $10000? Please send via PayPal Friends and Family.
 
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PrecisionGem said:
This thread has me kind of wondering what people expectations on shipping are.
Click to expand...

1) If you purchase a stone and elect not to have insurance added to the shipping, who is out if the stone is lost in the mail? The shipper or the buyer?

Depends on the shipper. If the shipper and I have explicitly agreed that we're not going to do insurance and the shipper will take on the risk, then the shipper. If the shipper is like "well, then it's on you" or if it's a second-hand transaction, then the buyer.

2) When shipping to Canada and other international orders, I am often asked to show a much lower value on the package. You can only insure for what the stated value is. People do this to avoid paying a higher duty, but what happens if it's lost in the mail?

I assume in that case I'm only going to get back the amount it was valued at. But then again I don't buy internationally very much.

3) When stones are retuned, I notice that often the person mailing the stone back has put no insurance on the package. If it's lost in the mail, should they still expect me to refund them?

Again, if the vendor has told me explicitly not to use insurance, then yes, I expect a refund. If the vendor's return instructions are to use insurance, and I didn't, I would not expect a refund. Last year I used one of the highly recommended vendors here, returned a gem, and I asked them explicitly if I should use insurance, and expressed concerns about postal theft. They agreed and said it was fine to ship without. So in that case I would have expected them to refund. I returned from another vendor... a couple of years ago now?... who specifically said to use insurance, so I did.

I have had people send back stones with out the gem jars I shipped them out in, and once time the person simply put the bare stone into a regular letter envelope with just a $0.50 stamp. Sometimes the stone comes back but not in my gem jar, but in one of those cheap round plastic ones.

Eek! Yeah, that's weird.
 
pwsg07 said:
1. Since you didn't mentioned the stone was examined by a jeweller in the email, I don't know did the jeweller actually examine the stone. May I have the name of the jeweller? I assume her name can be public since she is doing business. I am sure that the feather comes with the stone when I opened the parcel.

2. You have never expressed any worry about losing the stone without the insurance. You should have let me know you are not sending the stone without insurance. You should have let me agree all the condition or requirement before shipping the stone.

3. Since you worried about losing the stone, why did you ship the stone without getting paid? It contradicts to your worry of losing the stone or scam.

4. I request you to pay the difference on the sales taxes. It is not fair for me to pay the extra tax I didn't agree in advance. The different is 12% of ($1400-$1150) = $30 USD. If I have sold you an item that is $1000, but I declared $10000 and you have to pay the tax for $10000, do you think it is fair and will you be happy to pay the tax for $10000? Please send via PayPal Friends and Family.
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IMHO these are unreasonable requests. You bought preloved from a private seller, not from a store.
 
I didn't want to post again but feel the need to say a few more things. To the OP: this honestly sounds like buyers remorse. Multiple people have asked if what you are seeing is even a feather at all, and @springerspaniel had the stone checked by a jeweler prior to sending.

Even if there is a feather (which somehow the jeweler didnt see), it doesn't compromise the durability or ability to set and wear the stone. You made a beloved purchase from another country and refused to go through a broker (e.g. Grace). That means no refunds, no returns, and no purchase guarantees beyond people's honesty about what they are selling. @springerspaniel did everything she could to make the purchase go smoothly, and yet you are still unhappy.

You now want $30 to cover taxes that no one knew you would be charged, which is just ridiculous. No one is going to send a pricey item overseas without insurance to cover them in case of a loss. As the buyer, it's on you to figure out what taxes are applicable (if any) and calculate price accordingly.
 
lovedogs said:
I didn't want to post again but feel the need to say a few more things. To the OP: this honestly sounds like buyers remorse. Multiple people have asked if what you are seeing is even a feather at all, and @springerspaniel had the stone checked by a jeweler prior to sending.

Even if there is a feather (which somehow the jeweler didnt see), it doesn't compromise the durability or ability to set and wear the stone. You made a beloved purchase from another country and refused to go through a broker (e.g. Grace). That means no refunds, no returns, and no purchase guarantees beyond people's honesty about what they are selling. @springerspaniel did everything she could to make the purchase go smoothly, and yet you are still unhappy.

You now want $30 to cover taxes that no one knew you would be charged, which is just ridiculous. No one is going to send a pricey item overseas without insurance to cover them in case of a loss. As the buyer, it's on you to figure out what taxes are applicable (if any) and calculate price accordingly.
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Nailed it!
 
I am confused here. Didn't the seller said she would absorb the cost of the insurance during shipping? Did she? If so, then the OP has the right to request a refund on this portion, correct?

ETA
I went back and read it to understand that the seller did not charge the OP for the shipping insurance.
 
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chrono said:
I am confused here. Didn't the seller said she would absorb the cost of the insurance during shipping? Did she? If so, then the OP has the right to request a refund on this portion, correct?
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OP didn’t want to pay for insurance.

Seller covered the cost of insurance for the full amount that seller paid for the stone, $1400.

OP only expected to pay for duties on what she paid for the stone, $1150, but since the declared value was $1400, OP paid customs on that full amount.

OP is demanding seller to cover the difference in what she expected to pay customs vs. what she actually paid, which is $30.
 
I don’t have much experience buying from a private seller I have only bought from two PSers so far. I don’t know the rules of buying from a private seller. I have never bought on eBay. Based on my common sense everything should reach an agreement before going to the next step. If there is no agreement, no next step. If she feels uncomfortable sending a stone without an insurance and uncomfortable about my request, why she still sell me and send me the stone before I have paid the stone? She can refused to sell it to me. For grace, I don’t know how it works I just thought they are doing the shipping for the seller in this case. I have never brought from grace before.

She claimed that she has a jeweler to check the stone and she claim that I agree with the insurance but she later found out I have never agree with insurance on her last post. I know it is a final sell that’s why I asked her if there is a feather. People here believe that she has a jeweler checked the stone but they don’t believe I have found a feather right after I have opened the parcel

She proceed the shipment and the insurance without asking me.

My fault is not understanding the rules of buying from a private seller and receiving the parcel.

Please let me know what are the rules of buying from a private seller.
 
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yssie said:
This thread is making my head hurt.
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This thread is making my sense of fair play hurt.

Let it go @pwsg07; you can't see it, but you're in the wrong here. You bought a beautiful gem, sold to you in good faith, for a great price. It reached you safely and I, for one, am still not convinced it has a feather. Have YOU had it inspected for a second opinion? If so, pls include the name of the jeweler / gem specialist, since I assume that's public, since he or she is working in the trade. And please remember, you knowingly bought a gem second hand from a private seller who is not a professional gem dealer. She did all the things a trusting novice trying to do a good job would do. If that feather is REALLY bothering you - go get it polished out. Or set it under a prong, or just put it in a basket, since it seems to be wholly limited to the girdle.

@springerspaniel - go have a glass of wine and don't give this a second thought.
 
mellowyellowgirl said:
I used to buy a lot from China.

I had the vendor declare everything was worth $50. They also sent it in their personal names so it doesn't look like a sale. More like a relative sending me stuff.

I actually think full declarations the are riskier as the package looks more valuable and attracts more attention.

I'd rather it look like junk and not draw attention.

As long as the vendor provides tracking I will wear the cost of anything getting lost. Nothing has ever been lost though.
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This is illegal in Canada. It's considered tax evasion because "gifts" under $50 are exempt from sales tax upon import, whereas sales tax (HST or PST+GST) on purchased goods are required to be collected. If caught, the goods can be confiscated and the purchaser can be subject to a fine. I'm not sure if the seller can too (probably since they are technically committing fraud). Even when things are not subject to duty, they are subject to sales tax. This is of course refundable if you return an item (you fill out a form and apply to have the government refund it to you).

Also, Canadians sometimes want to take the risk of having things sent USPS (without tracking or insurance) as it's much less likely that Canada Customs will assign duty to those items. Things sent UPS or FedEx typically come with a $30 border brokerage fee and will always be assessed duty. USPS has about a 50 - 75% chance of flying under the radar and not being assessed duty. It's risky tbh with expensive items because there is no tracking (or even when there is, it can drop off the tracking system as soon as it crosses the border). Many sellers won't do it for that reason.

@pwsg07, It's unfortunate, but we are expected to pay taxes on purchases and that is based on the declared value of the item. It's tough with pre-loved items because the declared value is always the replacement cost of an item (i.e., the full retail purchase price) and not the purchase price that you paid. This is because you can't insure something for replacement cost and then tell customs that the actual value (the declared value) of that same item is something different. The declared value has to equal the insured value. It just is what it is, as the sellers need to insure for the replacement value of an item (and declare it), just in case something happens in transit. Otherwise *they* are typically out of pocket, not you. It's something that we as Canadian buyers need to be aware of when buying from the US (or elsewhere). I think part of what you are upset by is because of inexperience with making these types of purchases and because you expected something that couldn't (or shouldn't) be done (at least in terms of the taxes you were asked to pay). In terms of the feather, I'm no coloured stone expert, but I'd maybe suggest getting one to look at your stone and provide you with feedback about whether this is something you need to be worried about or if it's just one of those little cosmetic things that you hide with a setting and forget about. It does look like a beautiful stone. I hope that you are able to find a way to make peace with all of this. I know how disappointing it can be when things don't work out the way we hope.
 
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