Antique Cushion - What do you think?

[Skhii]

I love the AV Stars! I have been strongly considering doing a custom cut with GOG, and will very likely go that route if this stone doesn't work out.


New dilemma -- I had reached out to Jewels by Grace about having antique girdles polished, and she just informed me that this is not an actual antique stone, but an antique style cut. No wonder it is so perfectly symmetrical with such high color and clarity! I thought I had stumbled across a needle in a haystack with a real antique stone.

I wasn't aware of anyone but GoG and VC (and possibly ERD?) doing new cuts in the antique style. Does anyone know more about this?

Did Grace share how differentiate a genuine antique stone from a modern one? This would definitely be helpful to know when shopping around.

 

[sharonp]

The fact that it is a new cut took me by surprise, and makes it a different decision making process than if it were a true antique.

I think the world of cushions and the presentation of information on Pricescope is more than a little confusing so this post will hopefull help a little on your search with a couple of key points:

1) Despite the marketing, diamond vendors who sell to the public DO NOT cut stones. They don't polish them on the wheel and rarely do they buy rough to be polished. What they often do is select inventory from a cutter and, apply their own criteria in selection, and then slap their marketing brand on it. In rare cases some vendors MIGHT buy pieces of rough or a parcel and then commission a cutter to cut it to their specs (GOG AVC, VC Antique, etc). But really the consumer shouldn't care whether these retailers buy rough or buy the finished stone afterwards that isn't really our concern.

2) Newly cut generic cushions in the vintage style like the one you found from James Allen while not as common as Cushion modified brilliants are offered from many different pricescope vendors and outsiders. BE, Leon Mege, WF(from time to time), GOG just to name a few, there are cutting houses in New York that specialize in these cuts as they have become more popular the last 10 years. They are not commissioned or cut necessarily for these vendors specifically, the vendor uses their criteria for selection and slaps a brand or trademark on them for example (BE's Royal Chandelier Brilliant, and Leon Mege's True Antqiue) are both trademarked stones and both are likely supplied from the same New York cutting house who can also supply other vendors who just sell them as virtual inventory (like JamesAllen).

3) How to tell an Antique from a newly cut vintage stone? No one perfect method, but if its a high color, has a faceted girdle not a very thin knifedge, has decent optical symmetry and symmetric outline, and/or contains a fairly recent GIA-GTL report , all or one of these make it unlikely to be an antique and more likely to be a newly cut stone in the vintage faceting style.

4) How to tell the the difference between an AVC(different varieties), VC Antique Cushion, Generic Vintage Style and True Antique Cushions?

The largest and most obvious differences amongst them will be how they return light to the viewers. The first two are brands with strict criteria (AVC being the strictest). If you were to get an ASET image you could tell, you will see mostly all RED tables for the first two which translates to the ability for the table to be very bright and "ON" with the right kind of lighting.

Generic newly cut stones and True Antiques will have more blue and white under the table and less edge to edge brilliance. They will also have a more disordered and assymetric flashes of light which many people like as it appears more natural.

The outline shape of true antiques will separate them from the rest as they tend to be more roundish and follow the natural outline of the rough which is most often assymetric.

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Aca, I'll be keeping my eyes open for your new setting!

Skhii, I replied to Gace asking her exactly that, but it was right before the holiday weekend so I doubt she's had a chance to catch up on emails yet.

Sharonp, That information is beyond helpful, thank you very much!

 

[MollyMalone]

I'm still hopeful that this stone will be a winner in person! But if it isn't I will definitely be reaching out with pictures of this facet pattern. That's very helpful advice, I'm glad to know it's okay to be discerning about the facet pattern in old stones.
So is it okay to reach out to several vendors at once for the same request? That's not bad etiquette? Instead of picking one vendor and sticking with them. I've actually been wondering about this in regards to a custom setting.

I think it's more than fine to explore custom settings with a number of jewelers/metalsmiths -- but will suggest that, instead of doing an e-mail "blast" to any and all, you first narrow down what design(s) most appeal to you. Once you've done that, you can focus your gathering of price quotes, etc. to those best suited to execute your vision; like the rest of us, they don't all share the same strengths and aesthetics

I personally would not reach out, however, to lots of vendors with the same request(s) for loose, vintage stones as that can engender some ill will if they are in the same geographical area. E.g., last year, a PSer had been working with Adam of Old World Diamonds, but then followed up on a recommendation to call Good Old Gold. GOG didn't have anything in inventory (vintage stones are not their "thing"), so GOG ordered in a couple of stones from Adam. Adam figured out from the specs that GOG had ordered them for the PSer and (understandably enough imo) was not thrilled. She had no idea that's what GOG would do, but she still felt badly about it the kerfuffle. Would have been nice if GOG had asked her if she had been dealing with anyone else -- or been as professionally gracious as Yekutiel of ID Jewelry was very recently (maybe last week?); in response to a query from another PSer about vintage-antique stones, he said he didn't have any in stock & suggested she contact Adam.
(My views on this topic are shaped by the fact that, while in college, I worked in an upper crust department store, so experienced first-hand the "hit" one takes when someone else rings up a sale to to a customer to whom you devoted time and attention.)

There's another reason to not ask, e.g., both Grace and Erica to shop for you at a trade show: by them bidding against each other on your behalf, the price can end up being driven higher.

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

I think it's more than fine to explore custom settings with a number of jewelers/metalsmiths -- but will suggest that, instead of doing an e-mail "blast" to any and all, you first narrow down what design(s) most appeal to you. Once you've done that, you can focus your gathering of price quotes, etc. to those best suited to execute your vision; like the rest of us, they don't all share the same strengths and aesthetics
.

^^ this X 1,000. Figure out what aesthetics you are looking for in a ring, and go with the vendor who best matches those visions.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

...The flower facet pattern in a cushion is something I didn't even know I wanted until I saw it lol. I've been admiring OECs and antique cushions (and AVCs/AVRs) for a few years now and I've always preferred the OEC flower pattern over the Maltese cross, but prefer the cushion's square shape to the round.

This is exactly what I was looking for in a cushion too and I finally found mine I can't reveal it just yet but I can say it is a true antique cushion and in the exact flowery pattern it seems we are both describing. After 4 diamonds (and almost 5 years of searching), I can finally say I found my "holy grail cushion." Do not give up !

Oh awesome!!!! I am so happy for you! Can't wait for the reveal!!!

 

[Skhii]

Are suppliers for each jeweler based on geographical location? I was under the impression that JbG and LAD shop for stones at different antique shows everywhere in the USA.

Does anyone know which vendors share the same sources so one can ask different vendors who will not be competing with each other?
For example, it seems based on this thread, the following vendors share the same wholesalers:

Source 1 for genuine antique stones
Old World Diamonds
Good Old Gold

Source 2 for newly cut antique stones
Brilliantly Engaged
Leon Mege

Source 3 for genuine antique stones
Jewels by Grace
Love Affair Diamonds

 

[MollyMalone]

Are suppliers for each jeweler based on geographical location? I was under the impression that JbG and LAD shop for stones at different antique shows everywhere in the USA. * * *

I'm sorry if my previous post suggested that I think geography comes into play when vendors are doing in-person shopping at shows; thought I'd divorced the two scenarios sufficiently, but obviously I didn't, my apologies.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'm still hopeful that this stone will be a winner in person! But if it isn't I will definitely be reaching out with pictures of this facet pattern. That's very helpful advice, I'm glad to know it's okay to be discerning about the facet pattern in old stones.
So is it okay to reach out to several vendors at once for the same request? That's not bad etiquette? Instead of picking one vendor and sticking with them. I've actually been wondering about this in regards to a custom setting.

I think it's more than fine to explore custom settings with a number of jewelers/metalsmiths -- but will suggest that, instead of doing an e-mail "blast" to any and all, you first narrow down what design(s) most appeal to you. Once you've done that, you can focus your gathering of price quotes, etc. to those best suited to execute your vision; like the rest of us, they don't all share the same strengths and aesthetics

I personally would not reach out, however, to lots of vendors with the same request(s) for loose, vintage stones as that can engender some ill will if they are in the same geographical area. E.g., last year, a PSer had been working with Adam of Old World Diamonds, but then followed up on a recommendation to call Good Old Gold. GOG didn't have anything in inventory (vintage stones are not their "thing"), so GOG ordered in a couple of stones from Adam. Adam figured out from the specs that GOG had ordered them for the PSer and (understandably enough imo) was not thrilled. She had no idea that's what GOG would do, but she still felt badly about it the kerfuffle. Would have been nice if GOG had asked her if she had been dealing with anyone else -- or been as professionally gracious as Yekutiel of ID Jewelry was very recently (maybe last week?); in response to a query from another PSer about vintage-antique stones, he said he didn't have any in stock & suggested she contact Adam.
(My views on this topic are shaped by the fact that, while in college, I worked in an upper crust department store, so experienced first-hand the "hit" one takes when someone else rings up a sale to to a customer to whom you devoted time and attention.)

There's another reason to not ask, e.g., both Grace and Erica to shop for you at a trade show: by them bidding against each other on your behalf, the price can end up being driven higher.

Molly, I m going to have to disagree with one thing. I definitely don't think it would have been GOG's place to ask the customer where else they had been looking at diamonds. OWD is one place Jon gets antique stones from, just as he can call in stones listed at JA and other vendors who also are both suppliers and retailers. I have dealt with a lot of vendors, and never has one asked me where else I had been looking. I would have considered that totally out of line.

However, I do agree with you and think that is a great illustration of why it is never good to reach out to multiple vendors at one time. I personally would check out the online inventories of Jewels by Grace, Love Affair Diamonds, and OWD (and GOG and VC if newly cut stones were being considered). If none of them seemed to have anything I like at the moment, I would contact one of them to and let them know I was looking for antique cushion with whatever range of specs I was looking for and see what they can find. If they can't find a stone in a few weeks, then move on to another vendor rather than working with two at one time.

I will agree with ROL, though, that it can take awhile to find an excellent antique stone, particularly when it isn't an OEC. But I agree that the wait is worth it!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Are suppliers for each jeweler based on geographical location? I was under the impression that JbG and LAD shop for stones at different antique shows everywhere in the USA.

Does anyone know which vendors share the same sources so one can ask different vendors who will not be competing with each other?
For example, it seems based on this thread, the following vendors share the same wholesalers:

Source 1 for genuine antique stones
Old World Diamonds
Good Old Gold

Source 2 for newly cut antique stones
Brilliantly Engaged
Leon Mege

Source 3 for genuine antique stones
Jewels by Grace
Love Affair Diamonds

JbG and LAD go to some of the same shows and have access to some of the same suppliers. Sometimes they go to different shows. I would not try to work with both at one time. It isn't fair to make them both spend a lot of time searching while the customer is having multiple vendors search. They are both great and find nice diamonds, though.

1) Genuine antique stones sellers (in alphabetical order):

Good Old Gold (sells modern, antique, antique repro cuts, etc. while the 3 below specialize mostly in antiques)
Jewels by Grace
Love Affair Diamonds
Old World Diamonds

2) Newly cut antique style stones (with excellent/ideal cut and light performance):

Good Old Gold
Victor Canera

3) Newly cut antique stones (not usually cut to ideal light performance):

Brilliantly Engaged (formerly known as Engagement Rings Direct)

(My understanding is that LM gets his from the same source as BE, so I would use BE for that source, because they won't force you to use them for the setting.)

 

[Victor Canera]

Hi Everyone,

Sharonp, I would disagree that the sourcing of the rough diamonds shouldn’t matter to the consumer.

Because we’re deeply involved in the manufacturing of our diamonds, we can provide the country origin and the actual rough diamond weight of pretty much all of our Canera Antique Cushions. This is important to many consumers especially those that are concerned about ethics in the diamond business.

Because we’re involved in the sourcing of rough diamonds we can offer cut to order diamonds. In some instances we actually go out and search for a suitable piece of rough for a specific project.

With our involvement in the supply and manufacture of our diamonds we can control the smallest details of the final polished diamond. In fact the performance benchmarks that we have for the CAC can’t be re-produced by already polished diamonds.

Because we’re deeply involved in the sourcing of our rough diamonds, we can guarantee stones that won’t be milky, brownish or have a greenish undertone or have other issues.

T**edited by moderator**

For us, controlling the manufacture of our diamonds let’s us be in the driver seat as opposed to choosing ready made stones that might or might not meet our design or performance standards.

To the OP, good luck in your search and above all, enjoy it. It can be a fun process

All the best,

 

[telephone89]

Have you seen this one at OWD? OWA22923
Not sure what your budget is, but it reminds me of the JA one, but would be an actual antique. (I also LOVE the JA one)

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

My order was still in Pre-Production when I checked last night, then this morning I woke up to this!



Should be here tomorrow. The anticipation is killing me lol.

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Have you seen this one at OWD? OWA22923
Not sure what your budget is, but it reminds me of the JA one, but would be an actual antique. (I also LOVE the JA one)

That is a really pretty one, thank you for the heads up! I've saved it for later in case the JA cushion doesn't speak to me.

 

[sharonp]

Hi Everyone,

Sharonp, I would disagree that the sourcing of the rough diamonds shouldn’t matter to the consumer.

Because we’re deeply involved in the manufacturing of our diamonds, we can provide the country origin and the actual rough diamond weight of pretty much all of our Canera Antique Cushions. This is important to many consumers especially those that are concerned about ethics in the diamond business.

Because we’re involved in the sourcing of rough diamonds we can offer cut to order diamonds. In some instances we actually go out and search for a suitable piece of rough for a specific project.

With our involvement in the supply and manufacture of our diamonds we can control the smallest details of the final polished diamond. In fact the performance benchmarks that we have for the CAC can’t be re-produced by already polished diamonds.

Because we’re deeply involved in the sourcing of our rough diamonds, we can guarantee stones that won’t be milky, brownish or have a greenish undertone or have other issues.

**edited by moderator**

For us, controlling the manufacture of our diamonds let’s us be in the driver seat as opposed to choosing ready made stones that might or might not meet our design or performance standards.

To the OP, good luck in your search and above all, enjoy it. It can be a fun process

All the best,

Great pitch for custom cutting, I'd be curious to see how your pricing compares to GOG on these 8 main vintage style cushions. I doubt either of you is buying a box of rough, so the premium for you to buy on the secondary market or from a piece of a box from a cutting house has to be significant. Would the custom cutting route price these at or above a fine make 'Superideal' round?

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

It's here! It's very firey and the facet pattern is lovely. But.... It's not normal/good for there to be a window from the profile view is it? My ASET kit isn't getting here until the weekend.





Excuse the cheapie stackers, I've been wearing them since pregnancy gave me big knuckles.

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

I do like the size, it feels very comfortable.

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Holy fire batman!



Would appreciate honest opinions about the window! Is that normal in a well cut diamond?

 

[sharonp]

It's here! It's very firey and the facet pattern is lovely. But.... It's not normal/good for there to be a window from the profile view is it? My ASET kit isn't getting here until the weekend.





Excuse the cheapie stackers, I've been wearing them since pregnancy gave me big knuckles.

Looks like a beautiful well cut diamond and I bet you save 30% or more over the custom cutting route for the same size.
If diamonds were designed to perform from being side lit they wouldn't do very well returning light faceup back the viewer which is much more important.

 

[MMtwo]

Do you love it? I have an antique mine cut (GIA Cushion Brilliant) and yours looks very close. I think it's lovely.

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Sharon, Phew! I was worried lol.

Moneymeister, That's what I'm trying to figure out! It's gorgeous and everything I wanted in a cushion. The only thing is that the light play feels a bit chaotic. And you can't really see the flower petals unless you look hard. Maybe I am an oec girl after all?

Part of it I'm sure is some lingering nervousness about cut quality and performance,and when I noticed the window from the profile view I got nervous all over again.

 

[MMtwo]

These old cuts are so much about fire. Have you played in a dark room with a flashlight yet? Goofy sounding, but when the lights go down they are at their finest. When I go out to dinner it pings people across the room.

My cut is downright wonky and imperfect (certainly not as organized in pattern as yours) but the color/fire in certain lighting is ridiculous. I would consider that as well.

Good luck!

 

[telephone89]

It's beautiful!

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Haha no I will have to try that! I haven't had the chance to play with it much yet. Hopefully will be able to do that tomorrow. Today is full up with errands and swim class so there won't be much opportunity to safely wear this temporary holder thing.

 

[sharonp]

Haha no I will have to try that! I haven't had the chance to play with it much yet. Hopefully will be able to do that tomorrow. Today is full up with errands and swim class so there won't be much opportunity to safely wear this temporary holder thing.

Keep in mind this is a 6mm stone (1ct) virtual facets in any cutting style at this size are still quite small. While you may be heavily influenced by magnified pictures the real life differences are much more subtle. In the end you may care more about brightness than about subtle differences in size and shape of virtual facets(flashes).

 

[acaw2015]

hi again!

I think the cushion looks absolutely lovely!! I agree, try to check how if performs in many different situations. Give it a couple of days...

Re the side view I had the same issue! You can see pictures somewhere in the middle of this thread: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-ever-recurring-question-j-in-platinum-or-mixed-metal.218329/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-ever-recurring-question-j-in-platinum-or-mixed-metal.218329/[/URL]

If you want to keep the stone I really recommend giving serious thought into what kind of setting you put it in. Obviously dont use a yellow gold setting with parallell bars like I did unless you dont mind seeing the setting through the stone from the side. As you know I am having another setting made for the stone right now with no parallell bar and with a platinum head. Cant say how that will look from the side yet...

Hope this helps...

 

[foxinsox]

Just saw your stone arrived! It looks terrific, what a lovely size on your hand and the pattern looks pretty great. How are you thinking of setting it?

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Aca, Yes I tried a yellow gold stone holder and have the same thing happening! I kinda like it because it adds a little color, but I kinda don't like it because it may be leakage? Once my ASET kit is in I'll have a better idea. It was supposed to be here today but I missed the mail lady.

Foxinsox, Thank you! Most likely a rose gold solitaire. I just discovered Vram and really like his style so I'm leaning towards a custom with him. Still need to decide if I like how this diamond is performing though.

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Sharonp, The facets are small but there seems to be a lot of little pinpoint sparklies around and underneath the bigger facets. It makes for a very sparkly stone, but I wasn't really expecting the pinpoint sparkles in a stone with chunky facets. It feels a little chaotic when I was expecting a more structured performance, if that makes sense.


Does anyone know if this is a hallmark of the cut style, or a symptom of a problem with the cut? And the fact that you can see the yellow stone holder too?

 

[arkieb1]

Does it need cleaning already, I looked at your last photo (the one above) and thought it was heavily included and then went back saw the actual clarity of it and assume that is impossible, perhaps it's just a reflection of flecks from something in your photo....

I owned a small .99 AVC for a while (I sold it) and it never looked chaotic and the only major difference I can see is yours has a smaller table.