Are we too elitist & doing 99% of newbies a disservice?

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

But I wouldnt have my near ideal diamond, which i adore, without the help these ladies gave me.
Thank you!

Some of these ladies are blokes hahahaha
but thanks for your post

 

[MarionC]

Some of these ladies are blokes hahahaha
but thanks for your post

And right fine blokes they are!

 

[Fabulous50]

I strongly agree with your post, and your experience is symptomatic of what I have seen in terms of recommendations boiling down to 2 super-ideal diamonds with tiny differences in color and clarity between them. There is not enough affordance for a poster to express their visual preferences so that other people can tailor their advice. I think that consumer education and posting guides should focus on helping newbies identify and express their visual preferences so they receive the right recommendations. I meant if someone comes in wanting a "good color" diamond with a small budget no one will recommend an L to them, when in reality there are well-cut Ls that typical humans will view as white in all lighting situations which would enable them to get a much much larger diamond!

Seeking size in a well-cut diamond is not bad, it enables the beautiful internal geometry of the diamond to be viewed with the naked eye. Most of the time I am looking at a diamond in a room with other people, I am viewing the geometry, not the scintillation and brilliance.

Like your wife, I would prefer the stunning and well-cut 4 ct K SI2 vs. a significantly smaller stone.

Thanks, @Polyhex, for putting something into words that I value in my solitaire - internal geometry! I love to look at that.

 

[Fabulous50]

I'd love to!!!

@msop04, would you mind explaining what a hybrid 59/60 is? Thank you!

 

[flyingpig]

@msop04, would you mind explaining what a hybrid 59/60 is? Thank you!

Her diamond has the following proportions from what I remember
59 Table, 60 Depth, 34 Table, 40.8 Pavilion.
It behaves very much like TIC, but has the spread of 60/60 (BIC).
It is not an official term. I just came up with it as I was writing the post.

 

[dumbo]

If I remember correctly, the 60/60 stone prioritizes light return and can be a great stone to compare to super ideal cuts. They face up very bright, but perhaps not with the contrast or fire of some of the super ideals

 

[meesmom]

Some of these ladies are blokes hahahaha
but thanks for your post

Woops, very true! Sorry!

 

[caolsen]

PS, and especially RT, certainly can get very specific, very fast. Elitist implies, at least to me, exclusion above all else and I think the RT isn’t trying to keep people out, but it’s gets selective - possibly too selective about what makes a ”good” diamond.

As a non MRB person, posting on RT is much like throwing yourself to the wolves. But I suspect many a fellow who was clueless as he got ready to drop 5 figures on a rock has been exceedingly appreciative.

Other forums on PS are full of kind, lovely folks who love bling, colored stones, old stuff found at pawn shops, etc. It’s a community of folks who share a passion for things that have no practical value - and we all need support when our familes ask if we bought ANOTHER piece of jewelry

RT could do with a wee bit less obsession on the figures and more attention on what emotion people want to gain, foster, or enhance with the stone. And for me, taking the stone apart from that and the setting intended for the stone is very clinical. An amazing stone in an ugly, garbage setting will look trashy... and a not super ideal stone in an amazing, personalized setting can look spectacular. RT doesn’t spend enough time thinking about the overall impression of the piece, IMHO.

BTW, if you want ELITIST, go check out forums for English style horse riders. Good lord, you show up with the wrong brand of breeches and you are dead to them. Forever.

 

[msop04]

Her diamond has the following proportions from what I remember
59 Table, 60 Depth, 34 Table, 40.8 Pavilion.
It behaves very much like TIC, but has the spread of 60/60 (BIC).
It is not an official term. I just came up with it as I was writing the post.

@Fabulous50... sorry, I just saw this... flyingpig has a pretty good memory!

I have a 3.33 ct with a 9.8 mm spread that scores excellent on all 4 areas of the HCA, so I feel very lucky to have found it!

Here are the specs:

 

[flyingpig]

@Fabulous50... sorry, I just saw this... flyingpig has a pretty good memory!

I have a 3.33 ct with a 9.8 mm spread that scores excellent on all 4 areas of the HCA, so I feel very lucky to have found it!

Here are the specs:

Oops. I was debating between 40.6 and 40.8PA. But 59% depth and 9.8mm! That is even better. That is almost 3.7 carat territory for spread.

 

[msop04]

Oops. I was debating between 40.6 and 40.8PA. But 59% depth and 9.8mm! That is even better. That is almost 3.7 carat territory for spread.

I'm pretty impressed with your memory, @flyingpig!! I suffer from CRS, myself. LOL

 

[yssie]

I think the challenge with a dedicated newcomer forum/thread will be participation. Have you ever seen those authentication threads on some other boards? Page after page of “here’s an eBay listing, please help!” with little if any assistance... I could see a new consumer forum left to fend for itself turning into that. I should clarify that these are fora where expertise and passion definitely exist - it’s just that on the one hand people don’t care to answer the same question dozens of times, and on the other it insulates those newcomers from exploring the main learning/discussion threads and perhaps answering some of their own questions.

Perhaps a quota would be valuable here? In order to earn and maintain X badge, you need to have at least 20 posts per month in this newcomer forum. Or something.

 

[whitewave]

I personally like lab grown having it’s own board. Otherwise, we would have to state in every title whether we are discussing lab or earth mined. What a pain that would be.

Also, in regard to picking out a diamond (as I have been helping Danny since November pick out a diamond lol and he finally did it! Yay!) He chose outside of ideal parameters but he went and looked at it in person and Yekutiel showed it to him in low light and he said it had tons of sparkle. He’s happy with his diamond choice.

So when newbies with limited knowledge come, what should we ask them? Do you want a perfectly good diamond? Do you want mathematically the best there is? Upgrade policies? Better than your friends?

It would help if newbies gave us specific questions they would like us to ask at first to gauge their interest. However, do they even know about ideal cut and super ideal cut, and isn’t it worth a mention?

Also, you have to understand our point of view here. We are not going to any stores to see the diamonds we recommend. (I did visit IDJ for Danny while I was in NY but that was a one off circumstance that likely won’t happen again— he did not choose either I looked at as he went larger in the end).

Using HCA and the images and the angles helps us be secure in our recommendations, because speaking for myself, I would feel terrible if I recommended a diamond that turned out to be “less than”...

So newbies have to keep in mind that we don’t run jewelry stores and therefore, are flying blind in certain ways and ideal parameters and images and hca help us make good solid recommendations.

We shouldn’t be dinged for that.

 

[arkieb1]

I agree with @whitewave we are a diamond and gemstone forum first and foremost, not simply a forum for sims and man mad diamonds, we have a clear other section for those because it would get confusion to everyone if they were combined. If we simply wanted to be a site to show off or ask about anything places like WeddingBee already exist for that, and I think have a different purpose to here.

Pricescope has always existed to help the consumer and it's members make good informed choices not simply to show off those choices.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

As I follow this thread:

What to look for in a dealer

Hi all, thinking of proposing soon and going out with my girlfriend this weekend to get an idea of what she likes. For the final product, though, I’m thinking of going with a private dealer that my family has known for decades. Several of my cousins have gotten their engagement rings with him...

www.pricescope.com

I am curious if you think we are helping or hurting this newbie? Too elitist or providing good service?

 

[Karl_K]

As I follow this thread:

What to look for in a dealer

Hi all, thinking of proposing soon and going out with my girlfriend this weekend to get an idea of what she likes. For the final product, though, I’m thinking of going with a private dealer that my family has known for decades. Several of my cousins have gotten their engagement rings with him...

www.pricescope.com

I am curious if you think we are helping or hurting this newbie? Too elitist or providing good service?

hurting....
im sick with a high fever at times and it was making my head hurt with the complexity.
what is it doing to a newbie.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

hurting....
im sick with a high fever at times and it was making my head hurt with the complexity.
what is it doing to a newbie.

I was thinking much along those same lines. There is plenty of good information being presented, but it is a LOT. And, ironically, it barely scratches the surface. I feel the info is already enough for some serious analysis paralysis and I am sure the thread will continue for some time.

Hope you get well soon.

 

[LLJsmom]

No, because for me, I wish I had found this forum before I did my upgrade. I wish I had read more and studied more. I don't presume I "know" the character and personality traits of the people coming to PS with questions or asking for help. It is hard to tell how much they do or do not appreciate the help 1-10 years later. As PSers, we just do our best. I can live with that.

 

[kenny]

Again, noobs vary.
Some want to learn nothing.
Some want to learn everything.

Should we dumb down PS to meet the needs of only the lowest common denominator?
Of course not!
We'd disservice those who want to learn more, and not overpay for frozen spit from the largest diamond retailers.

I see PS as a store offering a wide range of product.
The product here is diamond information.
As with any store, shoppers enter, look around, ignore what they don't want and go for what they do want.

Why take half the product off the shelf?
And again, I take offense at Garry's thread title ... 99% of noobs are being disserviced?
Really? 99%? GMAB!

Let's service 100% by presenting what we've always been presenting.
People intimidated by accurate helpful information are not a reason to dumb down PS.

 

[Karl_K]

And again, I take offense at Garry's thread title ... 99% of noobs are being disserviced?
Really? 99%? GMAB!

I agree.
But....
That does not mean we collectively can not present it in a more understandable manner without overloading people from the start.
Lets say someone says Kenny teach me to read and play music, do you hand them a 500 page book on music theory?

 

[jp201845]

I agree.
But....
That does not mean we collectively can not present it in a more understandable manner without overloading people from the start.
Lets say someone says Kenny teach me to read and play music, do you hand them a 500 page book on music theory?

Newbies process information differently, some are intimidated by the complexity thrown at them while others are eager to learn and thrive with the information presented to them. The problem I faced as a newbie and others starting out I'm sure is being totally overwhelmed with a big purchase financially and second guessing yourself if you are making the right decision. Also it is difficult for a newbie to feel they are asking the right questions from the beginning without feeling inadequate or stupid. It would be a huge disservice to someone starting out without having information given to them whether it's complex or total overload. As a newbie I would rather have the wealth of information from the beginning than not having any when it really matters. That's why Pricescope and this community rocks !!

 

[MarionC]

hurting....
im sick with a high fever at times and it was making my head hurt with the complexity.
what is it doing to a newbie.

I’m not sick and it gave me a headache. So many words!!!
But the OP did write a bit as well, so in this case perhaps it was a good match.
I personally like things simple during the learning curve, but that is just me.
PS is an amazing resource.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Again, noobs vary.
Some want to learn nothing.
Some want to learn everything.

Should we dumb down PS to meet the needs of only the lowest common denominator?
Of course not!
We'd disservice those who want to learn more, and not overpay for frozen spit from the largest diamond retailers.

I see PS as a store offering a wide range of product.
The product here is diamond information.
As with any store, shoppers enter, look around, ignore what they don't want and go for what they do want.

Why take half the product off the shelf?
And again, I take offense at Garry's thread title ... 99% of noobs are being disserviced?
Really? 99%? GMAB!

Let's service 100% by presenting what we've always been presenting.
People intimidated by accurate helpful information are not a reason to dumb down PS.

I totally agree with this.

Advertisers do all sorts of commercials trying to reach as many people as they can because there are many different types of consumers. They process information differently as well. Many people here give generously of their time so trying to say they aren't providing good service is rather insulting.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I have to say that this discussion is pretty odd. This is an INFORMATION forum consisting of archived content and a community of enthusiasts, experts, and trade members participating to answer questions and share information and opinions for the purpose of increasing their own knowledge while helping newbies. The idea that community members are sharing “too much information” is almost laughable. I am not sure whether this is a product of some sort of collective guilt that has been dropped on those voices whose approach to participation is of a technical nature (now so-called ‘elitists”),or exactly what is happening here. But it strikes me as pretty strange.

This forum was BUILT on technical information. Much of the content (both knowledge base articles and the information presented in threads) is a big reason that online searchers discover pricescope in the first place.

@Diamond_Hawk calls attention to a current thread as an example of the community pushing too much information to the OP. For crying out loud, the OP said in the first post “I want to go into this fully informed. Thank you all for your help!”

In post #9 the OP says “Wink, you mentioned new advancements and research with light behavior, could you elaborate on that? I’ve read that the angles and percentages of each part need to be in a certain range, that the HCA is a good tool to determine how it will shine, and that you should look at idealscope and ASET but I don’t know how to interpret those, really. Any help would be welcome.

So if this thread is an example of the community being “elitist” and not helpful to the newbie, and discouraging lurkers from posting, then I would say that clearly prosumers are NOT the problem. And it is a travesty that they are being shamed in this way. If anything, that thread shows the responsiveness, helpfulness and diversity of opinion that this community is known for.

There is certainly a discussion to be had around the best ways to help, content pathways to direct newbies to, forum design, etc. But let’s not throw community members under the bus for being enthusiastic about sharing information!

 

[Karl_K]

So if this thread is an example of the community being “elitist” and not helpful to the newbie, and discouraging lurkers from posting, then I would say that clearly prosumers are NOT the problem. And it is a travesty that they are being shamed in this way.

I dont see it as prosumers being shamed at all.
The wealth of information and the level of skill of the prosumers is truly amazing. They rock!!
This forum does diamond 102, 103 and 200 205 really well if someone wants it but diamond 101, the start point needs some work I think.
It is not a slam at all to discuss it.

Like I said way back when in this thread.
There is the easy road having the prosumers do the work and there is the long road. Learning it yourself. Both are available here.
What I am saying is we can make the learning it yourself easier.

 

[AV_]

The idea that community members are sharing “too much information” is almost laughable.

Never mind 'almost'.

This thread could well go; if anything is TMI, this is it.

 

[kenny]

I agree.
But....
That does not mean we collectively can not present it in a more understandable manner without overloading people from the start.
Lets say someone says Kenny teach me to read and play music, do you hand them a 500 page book on music theory?

Good point.
But the difference is I'd give that music student lessons, one on one, in person, for an hour a week, for a long time.
On PS we can only post words on a screen and links to videos.
A forum is a poor format for learning to read and play music, but is very good for diamond education.

If a noob gets overloaded and just wants good product, service, value and to not be ripped off but learn zero technical stuff, it's their job so say so.
I'd respond with 5 simple words, "Just go buy an ACA."
Done.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Good point.
But the difference is I'd give that music student lessons, one on one, in person, for an hour a week, for a long time.
On PS we can only post words on a screen and links to videos.
A forum is a poor format for learning to read and play music, but is very good for diamond education.

If a noob gets overloaded and just wants good product, service, value and to not be ripped off, it's their job so say so.
I'd respond with 5 simple words, "Just go buy an ACA."
Done.

Amen. That can be very good advice - a product that has been tried and true through many years from a company that helps to promote learning as well. I don't consider that elitist; it is a solid recommendation for someone that wants the legwork already done for them.

 

[KLC]

As a newbie, I've mostly found everyone here super helpful and friendly. Especially in the colored stone forum. Only once have I felt insulted when I was asking about a small diamond to replace a stone that got lost and was told at 0.5ct size that it wasn't worth worrying about price or quality.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I dont see it as prosumers being shamed at all.
The wealth of information and the level of skill of the prosumers is truly amazing. They rock!!
This forum does diamond 102, 103 and 200 205 really well if someone wants it but diamond 101, the start point needs some work I think.
It is not a slam at all to discuss it.

Like I said way back when in this thread.
There is the easy road having the prosumers do the work and there is the long road. Learning it yourself. Both are available here.
What I am saying is we can make the learning it yourself easier.

Karl, we all know you are a technical guy. But your reply #20 in the thread Diamond_Hawk referenced is the epitome of responsiveness, balance, and helpfulness.

This general approach is the rule rather than the exception on this forum. I think that any lurker that reads a few threads will see this spirit reflected and will take comfort from it.

While a hasty post here and there can feel prickly to a newbie, on balance most will get a sense that people are here to help. Even if some opinions expressed may be rather narrow and lacking in bedside manner.