Baby circumcised against parents' wishes = lawsuit??

[Imdanny]

I have very strong feelings about male circumcision. I hate it.

It was done to me and I hate it. I don't agree with it and I don't think it should be done to anyone.

My comments aren't meant to offend or upset anyone who feels differently but this is how I feel.

I feel the exact opposite.

Gee, Autumn, this whole time I thought you were female!

I think it's a little inappropriate to tell people who face mutilation how you feel about it when you're not threatened by it. This is also why I'm none too concerned with the men who think FGM is no big deal.

I'm pretty sure I didn't tell ImDanny exactly how to feel. I told him I felt the complete opposite ----- in terms of his thoughts that nobody should have it done, not the fact that he specifically hates it.


ETA: by the way, making smirky comments about whether or not I'm male or female, isn't cute.

Thank you for clarifying your comments. We'll have to agree to disagree as I do think that it is mutilation of the human body and mutilation of a functional part of the human body.

 

[Autumnovember]

I have very strong feelings about male circumcision. I hate it.

It was done to me and I hate it. I don't agree with it and I don't think it should be done to anyone.

My comments aren't meant to offend or upset anyone who feels differently but this is how I feel.

I feel the exact opposite.

Gee, Autumn, this whole time I thought you were female!

I think it's a little inappropriate to tell people who face mutilation how you feel about it when you're not threatened by it. This is also why I'm none too concerned with the men who think FGM is no big deal.

Autumn, I think you can not know how you would feel, you can have an opinion, but you have not experience it. I think telling Imdanny that you feel the opposite is questionable, you can think differently but you can not feel it. I know you are a girl because I saw you in BWW but when I read it at first I thought you were a man before I read your avatar.

So then that means parents of babies can't have opinions on whether or not circumcision is right or wrong for their child?

You aren't understanding something here.

I previously clarified my statement that I would not tell anyone who is opposed to it that they are wrong, but I *personally* disagree. It's as simple as that.

 

[LadyBlue]

Last I checked circumcised men could still work for a living.

Sh!t happens.

Wow.

AFAIC, this is just not that big of a deal.
Some guys are cut, some not.
Both get along fine.
It is not like they took out the GOOD kidney.

Today's expectation of perfect safety and perfectly perfect perfection in every way is downright creepy.

Kenny, I totally understand that it's not a big deal for you. But for this family in question it is a HUGE deal. Should not we respect others people points of view? Just because for you it's not a big deal should they feel the same?

A multi-million huge deal?

Their baby is not in danger or harm. Their baby also probably will not be affected by the mistake on a larger scale.

Although it IS sad that this happened because of their strong ties to the tradition, it's not something that is going to damage that baby or family.

In my opinion if I have a boy I will probably have my boy circumcised, but that does not mean that I can not respect and see other people persepctive. The hospital did a mistake, I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how should they pay,their mistake has consequences and they will have to pay for the mistake.

 

[dragonfly411]

I guess my thought process was if it would make a difference if they hadn't stated anything at all one way or the other vs. saying no, they didn't want it.

 

[Autumnovember]

I have very strong feelings about male circumcision. I hate it.

It was done to me and I hate it. I don't agree with it and I don't think it should be done to anyone.

My comments aren't meant to offend or upset anyone who feels differently but this is how I feel.

I feel the exact opposite.

Gee, Autumn, this whole time I thought you were female!

I think it's a little inappropriate to tell people who face mutilation how you feel about it when you're not threatened by it. This is also why I'm none too concerned with the men who think FGM is no big deal.

I'm pretty sure I didn't tell ImDanny exactly how to feel. I told him I felt the complete opposite ----- in terms of his thoughts that nobody should have it done, not the fact that he specifically hates it.


ETA: by the way, making smirky comments about whether or not I'm male or female, isn't cute.

Thank you for clarifying your comments. We'll have to agree to disagree as I do think that it is mutilation of the human body and mutilation of a functional part of the human body.

We can agree to disagree

 

[Autumnovember]

Last I checked circumcised men could still work for a living.

Sh!t happens.

Wow.

AFAIC, this is just not that big of a deal.
Some guys are cut, some not.
Both get along fine.
It is not like they took out the GOOD kidney.

Today's expectation of perfect safety and perfectly perfect perfection in every way is downright creepy.

Kenny, I totally understand that it's not a big deal for you. But for this family in question it is a HUGE deal. Should not we respect others people points of view? Just because for you it's not a big deal should they feel the same?

A multi-million huge deal?

Their baby is not in danger or harm. Their baby also probably will not be affected by the mistake on a larger scale.

Although it IS sad that this happened because of their strong ties to the tradition, it's not something that is going to damage that baby or family.

In my opinion if I have a boy I will probably have my boy circumcised, but that does not mean that I can not respect and see other people persepctive. The hospital did a mistake, I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how should they pay,their mistake has consequences and they will have to pay for the mistake.

I didn't disrespect anyones opinions here. I'm stating my own just as everyone else has.

 

[lucyandroger]

I guess my thought process was if it would make a difference if they hadn't stated anything at all one way or the other vs. saying no, they didn't want it.

If the parents did not state anything, then they did not give consent. When you enter the hospital, you don't have to carry around a list of all the procedures you don't want done to you. Instead, you must affirmatively give your consent to a procedure (or in this case, the parents since it's a baby).

Think of it this way...you're in the hospital to give birth and the doctor walks in while you're asleep. He says, well dragonfly didn't say either way whether she wanted a mastectomy. So, I'll just give her one...that would be crazy, right? Same thing here.

ETA - I just wanted to say that I don't mean to be flippant about doctors' work. Just trying to set out an easy example.

 

[doodle]

Ggrrr, my post has disappeared into the ether. Anywho, thanks panda and lucyandroger, for the additional legal info! Based on the legal definition of battery, I amend my previous stance. I still think they're asking for an obscene amount of money, though, and it bothers me that their lawyer seems to be so focused on riling up people's emotional responses rather than focusing on the legality of the situation.

 

[dragonfly411]

I guess my thought process was if it would make a difference if they hadn't stated anything at all one way or the other vs. saying no, they didn't want it.

If the parents did not state anything, then they did not give consent. When you enter the hospital, you don't have to carry around a list of all the procedures you don't want done to you. Instead, you must affirmatively give your consent to a procedure (or in this case, the parents since it's a baby).

Think of it this way...you're in the hospital to give birth and the doctor walks in while you're asleep. He says, well dragonfly didn't say either way whether she wanted a mastectomy. So, I'll just give her one...that would be crazy, right? Same thing here.

Thanks! Makes perfect sense.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Ggrrr, my post has disappeared into the ether. Anywho, thanks panda and lucyandroger, for the additional legal info! Based on the legal definition of battery, I amend my previous stance. I still think they're asking for an obscene amount of money, though, and it bothers me that their lawyer seems to be so focused on riling up people's emotional responses rather than focusing on the legality of the situation.

It's the emotional response that will almost certainly garner the amount they want. The legality of the case is open and shut. I figure this will end in 6 figures, but nowhere close to 7 figures. Hopefully through this, the doctor and hospital take the time to address how this happened and how to make sure it never happens again.

 

[kenny]

Wouldn't it be great if this boy grows up and opts for a surgical sex change?

Hey, someone had to ask.

 

[Circe]

I have very strong feelings about male circumcision. I hate it.

It was done to me and I hate it. I don't agree with it and I don't think it should be done to anyone.

My comments aren't meant to offend or upset anyone who feels differently but this is how I feel.

I feel the exact opposite.

Gee, Autumn, this whole time I thought you were female!

I think it's a little inappropriate to tell people who face mutilation how you feel about it when you're not threatened by it. This is also why I'm none too concerned with the men who think FGM is no big deal.

I'm pretty sure I didn't tell ImDanny exactly how to feel. I told him I felt the complete opposite ----- in terms of his thoughts that nobody should have it done, not the fact that he specifically hates it.


ETA: by the way, making smirky comments about whether or not I'm male or female, isn't cute.

I dunno, Autumn, I thought it was. Agree to disagree? backatcha.

From where I stand, the experience of an exterior group just isn't as valid as the experience of the person who's undergone the experience. My opinion of the African diaspora might be informed, but it doesn't give me license to go around telling people of color how they ought to feel: dudes who tell me catcalls are really a compliment get the real-life version of the rolly-eye. I genuinely think it's out-of-line to tell someone who feels traumatized that *you* wouldn't, because, you know, purely physically ... you couldn't. So it comes down to the same thing.

My feelings, though, are just as hypothetical as yours, due to the girl bits. So at the end of the day, it *is* an agree-to-disagree thing. Doesn't mean we can't engage in some spirited discourse along the way ....

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Wouldn't it be great if this boy grows up and opts for a surgical sex change?

All the more power to him... or her... Oh how fun a thread on gender identity could be

 

[Autumnovember]

I have very strong feelings about male circumcision. I hate it.

It was done to me and I hate it. I don't agree with it and I don't think it should be done to anyone.

My comments aren't meant to offend or upset anyone who feels differently but this is how I feel.

I feel the exact opposite.

Gee, Autumn, this whole time I thought you were female!

I think it's a little inappropriate to tell people who face mutilation how you feel about it when you're not threatened by it. This is also why I'm none too concerned with the men who think FGM is no big deal.

I'm pretty sure I didn't tell ImDanny exactly how to feel. I told him I felt the complete opposite ----- in terms of his thoughts that nobody should have it done, not the fact that he specifically hates it.


ETA: by the way, making smirky comments about whether or not I'm male or female, isn't cute.

I dunno, Autumn, I thought it was. Agree to disagree? backatcha.

From where I stand, the experience of an exterior group just isn't as valid as the experience of the person who's undergone the experience. My opinion of the African diaspora might be informed, but it doesn't give me license to go around telling people of color how they ought to feel: dudes who tell me catcalls are really a compliment get the real-life version of the rolly-eye. I genuinely think it's out-of-line to tell someone who feels traumatized that *you* wouldn't, because, you know, purely physically ... you couldn't. So it comes down to the same thing.

My feelings, though, are just as hypothetical as yours, due to the girl bits. So at the end of the day, it *is* an agree-to-disagree thing. Doesn't mean we can't engage in some spirited discourse along the way ....

Again, never told anybody how to feel. I clarified my statements.

 

[elrohwen]

I don't know about battery, but I think they should absolutely sue for malpractice if they want. Not sure if multi-millions of dollars is the right amount, but I guess that's for the judge to decide. I would be beyond angry if I were the parents of this child (and I'm pro-circumcision - I don't think it matters which side of the debate you're on). They didn't give their consent, so the doctors shouldn't have done it - open and shut.

eta: Just read page 2 - I guess battery does make the most sense, considering the definition.

 

[princesss]

Thanks for the legal definition of battery - I was pretty certain that's what it was, but not enough to say anything.

I do think the parents have a legal right to sue - they did not consent to an elective surgery that was performed on their child. They're not going to get a massive settlement, but they're anchoring their price high - now no matter what it is, it'll be significantly higher than if they'd just asked for what seems reasonable. It's a smart negotiating tactic, and I'm not surprised they're using it. And it's the emotional aspect of it (this happening to a defenseless baby) that will get them closer to the price they're asking as well.

My personal opinion on it is that it's not needed and not something I would choose to do to my child. I just can't get behind the knowing mutilation of a child's body - if it needs to be done later, so be it, but why remove healthy tissue without some kind of health benefit? Any benefit that came from it generally doesn't apply to people in developed countries, so I just can't imagine doing it.

 

[Nashville]

Yes to a lawsuit (I'd be livid if this was against my beliefs), no to going after millions.

Most likely I'd sue and put the money into a college/trust fund solely for my child. This lawsuit smacks of greed... just getting a vibe.

But then, I'm not really religious and I don't have a boy, or a long standing family tradition. So I really don't know HOW I'd feel. It's just unfortunate that it happened at all.

 

[Laila619]

Not to go off topic too much, but I'm curious about something...for the people who are anti-circumcision, do you also feel that piercing a baby girl's ears is mutilation?

 

[princesss]

Yeah. I feel that changes to somebody's body should be made with their consent. If they want to do it later in life, fine.

I will say I don't react as strongly to it, because it's reversable - you can always let the holes close up. You can't let a foreskin regrow.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Not to go off topic too much, but I'm curious about something...for the people who are anti-circumcision, do you also feel that piercing a baby girl's ears is mutilation?

No, not mutilation, because there is no removal of tissue. Ear skin will regrow over the hole, foreskin will not. I still don't think it should be done though. The child should have the opportunity to decide.

 

[kenny]

Yeah. I feel that changes to somebody's body should be made with their consent. If they want to do it later in life, fine.

YES, that's the elephant in the living room here.
Does anyone have a right to force an optional cosmetic surgically alteration onto another human?

Does a parent have a right to do this to a baby?

I vote no.

 

[Laila619]

Not to go off topic too much, but I'm curious about something...for the people who are anti-circumcision, do you also feel that piercing a baby girl's ears is mutilation?

No, not mutilation, because there is no removal of tissue. Ear skin will regrow over the hole, foreskin will not.

Not necessarily. My second set of holes has never closed up, and I haven't worn earrings in them in years.

 

[elrohwen]

Not to go off topic too much, but I'm curious about something...for the people who are anti-circumcision, do you also feel that piercing a baby girl's ears is mutilation?

No, not mutilation, because there is no removal of tissue. Ear skin will regrow over the hole, foreskin will not.

Not necessarily. My second set of holes have never closed up, and I haven't worn earrings in them in years.

That's correct - holes pierced in ears don't actually close up. They may seem like they do, but they never fully close.

 

[lucyandroger]

Yeah. I feel that changes to somebody's body should be made with their consent. If they want to do it later in life, fine.

I will say I don't react as strongly to it, because it's reversable - you can always let the holes close up. You can't let a foreskin regrow.

I agree with princess. Also, I don't react as strongly to the ear piercing because to me, removing a piece of a child's genitalia is worse than putting holes in their ears. I wouldn't do either though.

 

[Arkteia]

While I doubt that this family comes from Eastern Europe, there is a strong feeling against circumcision in some Eastern European cultures. It dates back to Nazi's time when examining a male penis was a quick way to decide whether he was a Jew (with all consequences of it). Yes, it was like this - troops enter a village, and order men to pull down their pants... So while I personally wanted my second son to be circumcised for hygienic reasons, both my husband and my father disagreed. If the hospital made a mistake, however, I would not consider it mutilation. To sue or not to sue is parents' decision. But a multi-million dollar suit is overboard because, like Kenny, I fail to see how it can have a huge impact on his life. I do not think his family will reject him and male circumcison is pretty common. I do not expect him to be harassed at school because of it.

It is strange that the doctor did not bother to talk to the parents, though, consent or no consent. Mine assumed (mistakenly) that we were Jewish, and yet he did ask us.

My opinion is probably shaped by being a doctor and feeling bad about medical lawsuits; I also know the situation in OBGYN world. It is usually the OBGYN that performs the circumcision. But do you know that all of them are up to their ears in lawsuits, right or wrong? And their premiums are high as high can be and most of them try to leave OB as soon as they fill up their GYN practices. There is already a lack of good OBGYNs and the trend is growing. I can imagine many situations happening before the delivery, pre-eclampsia, trauma, death, postnatal complications. In comparison with it, mistakenly done circumcision is, sorry, a small thing.

And has anyone ever thought about the life and practice of this, probably, good doctor (since he works at a good hospital) during or after the lawsuit? People are leaving OBGYN and neonatology, mostly because of lawsuits.

In another thread I mentioned not suing a doctor who cut my son's cheek during C-section. There are two small scars now but at that moment a baby with sutures on his cheek looked scary enough. I am positive that I would have won. But I was thankful to this doctor who made the decision to perform C-section in a situation bordering with pre-eclampsia. My son probably avoided other, more serious, problems. The doctor had two emergency C-sections that night. So would I really blame her given that my son came out healthy? I probably would sue if the cut went through, say, his eye. But in all honesty, circumcision is neither mutilation nor battery. Just a mistake, not even a medical mistake since it does not have a direct effect on his health or bodily functions.

 

[icekid]

Sigh...... this is a very unfortunate mistake and should not have happened, obviously. The hospital "owes" the family surgery to reverse the mistake and some compensation for the trouble as well as the undue pain for the child. But millions???? SERIOUSLY??

Medical malpractice NEEDS reform and is one of the biggest issues facing medicine in the US. Sadly, our government currently prefers to ignore this problem. I love my job, but would not choose to go to medical school again given the state of this country's entitled citizens and our debilitated medical system.

 

[Imdanny]

Sigh...... this is a very unfortunate mistake and should not have happened, obviously. The hospital "owes" the family surgery to reverse the mistake and some compensation for the trouble as well as the undue pain for the child. But millions???? SERIOUSLY??

Medical malpractice NEEDS reform and is one of the biggest issues facing medicine in the US. Sadly, our government currently prefers to ignore this problem. I love my job, but would not choose to go to medical school again given the state of this country's entitled citizens and our debilitated medical system.

I'm curious.

How does a doctor completely reverse a circumcision after performing one?

So that baby can undergo surgery and come out of surgery as if he had never been circumcised?

I highly doubt it.

 

[Yimmers]

Ggrrr, my post has disappeared into the ether. Anywho, thanks panda and lucyandroger, for the additional legal info! Based on the legal definition of battery, I amend my previous stance. I still think they're asking for an obscene amount of money, though, and it bothers me that their lawyer seems to be so focused on riling up people's emotional responses rather than focusing on the legality of the situation.

It's the emotional response that will almost certainly garner the amount they want. The legality of the case is open and shut. I figure this will end in 6 figures, but nowhere close to 7 figures. Hopefully through this, the doctor and hospital take the time to address how this happened and how to make sure it never happens again.

6 figures? You're generous. I've got my defense attorney cap on and my initial offer to settle if I were counsel for the hospital would be to do reversal surgery for free, and maybe offer a donation in their name to a charity of their choice. From a defense standpoint, I'd place this case at 5 figures. Not 6, and certainly not 7. Here's my reason why. I wouldn't want to allow this type of case to stand as a baseline for future settlements in other cases where they have mistakenly performed unwanted elective surgery where there is no real future physical harm to the person's physical well-being. I think they have no economic damages other than reversal surgery (assuming it exists), and I think proving non-economic damages is going to be tricky. Given the huge debate over circumcision in this very topic, I'd expect a jury to be just a divided. Therefore, I wouldn't bank on a jury awarding a lot of damages.

 

[february2003bride]

In DH's religion, circumcision (and cutting anything on the body, including hair. DH ditched his turban, long hair and beard at 17 ) is forbidden and none of the males on his side are. However for our boys he insisted that they be circ'ed. I wasn't really for it mainly b/c I didn't want my sons to be in pain. But DH insisted and after talking to our pediatrician and my obgyn (who would be doing the procedure) I gave in. Needless to say, certain family members were livid when they found out. So I can understand why for this family, it's a HUGE issue. However I wouldn't label it battery, but I would sue for malpractice.

 

[kenny]

As to "foreskin restoration" just pulling and modifying the skin over a long period of time so it looks like it did before is not really enough.

The foreskin contains a HUGE concentration of nerves that increase pleasure during sex.
I believe you cannot restore the nerves in the newly generated skin, just spread out the existing nerves over a new larger area.

Female circumcision is all about reducing sexual pleasure to "keep women in line".
I suspect the origins of male circumcision are about as honorable.