Baby circumcised against parents' wishes = lawsuit??

[kenny]

The whole "sex is better if you are uncut" thing is BS for one simple reason - unless you have experienced it BOTH WAYS you cannot legitimately say that.

My SO was circumcised a couple years ago at age 40.
He reports much less sensation.

Sample size: 1 - but there it is.

Was it a personal choice or medical? Don't have to share if you're not comfortable..

I'm not comfortable sharing; I feel bad enough revealing what I have.
I just did so in response to that BS comment. - PLUS I'll add it's from a woman.
I get lots of criticism here on PS when talking about certain woman-sensitive subjects so . . .
I'm just saying that that can go both ways.

I still suspect one of the origins of male and female circumcision is pious prudes wanting to reduce sexual pleasure in others; it's about control.
Over time it just became tradition ... wanting the son to look like dad.
I am not disputing the medical evidence.
Both just coexist AFAIC.

 

[ericad]

Just to share our specific beliefs on the matter (all of the below is my opinion based on research I've done and our own family's personal beliefs. I respect the fact that others disagree, but maybe my points below will give some parents pause, who previously had not considered skipping circumcision.)

The "cleanliness" argument is illogical. Just pull back and wash - how difficult is that? Yes, that means parents will have to wash their child's penis until he's old enough to do it correctly, and adult men have to take a few extra seconds to properly clean, therefore touching themselves. It's my opinion that part of the roots of male circumcision in our country is based on our puritanical history, but again, that's just my opinion and I accept that many will disagree.

The argument that it makes no difference in sexual pleasure is illogical. You are removing nerve endings and exposing the penis, which is meant to stay covered, to constant friction and desensitization over a person's lifetime. It's logical to me that the circumcised male's sexual pleasure is diminished compared to an intact male. How can it not be?

The argument that it prevents the possibility of disease is illogical. I have breasts - should I remove them to prevent breast cancer? Should I remove my child's appendix just in case it ruptures one day - a person can live and work without an appendix - does that make it a good idea as a preventative measure? I lived my whole life with a well functioning gallbladder, until the day it went wrong. So I had it removed - AS NEEDED and when it was medically necessary. Appendicitis and gallstones are relatively common but we don't advocate preventative removal in infants, do we? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but having a medically necessary circumcision as an older child or an adult also offers the male more pain relief options than a newborn infant is given. Just because we don't remember infant trauma doesn't mean that it doesn't have lasting psychological effects.

Again, these are just my opinions on a heated issue about which I have very strong feelings. Each side of this argument has valid reasons for their beliefs. My point is that to say it's no big deal or simply "oops, sorry for our mistake" to a parent who believes what I've listed above is really disrespectful and I think the parents should absolutely sue because what the hospital has done, IMO, is irreversibly disfigured their infant without consent, and this has lifelong ramifications for that family.

 

[lucyandroger]

Can I just point out that nearly all male European babies are left intact (no circumcision). They seem to be doing alright, no? Is there an epidemic of penile health issues in Europe that I'm unaware of? I would love to get a European's point of view on this.

 

[panda08]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but just wanted to post my opinion on the matter. For those of us opposed to circumcision (DH and I are in this camp, vehemently), the "accidental" circumcision of one's baby is mutilation/disfigurement in our book. I would react the same way I'd react if my son "accidentally" had his finger or toe amputated or something else along those lines. It's a very serious matter to us, and being in a minority position on this subject makes us even more cautious and sensitive.

I would be utterly devastated for my child and absolutely would seek legal recourse. Punitive action will cause other hospitals and medical professionals to take the extra precautions necessary to prevent these types of mistakes. IT IS A SERIOUS MATTER and frankly, I'm really disappointed to read some of the flip responses I've seen on this thread.

I think everyone here or about 98% of the people that have posted, agreed that it IS a serious matter. Whether it happened by mistake or because of sheer laziness to read through consent forms, its a serious matter and nobody is doubting that. What people are debating is whether or not it is considered battery or not. Anyone can sit here and say they're disappointed with other peoples opinions and thoughts but I think it is important to take everyones thoughts as just that, OPINIONS.

Legally speaking, it's battery. Whether the act comports with lay persons' belief of what constitutes battery is another matter.

 

[ericad]

Can I just point out that nearly all male European babies are left intact (no circumcision). They seem to be doing alright, no? Is there an epidemic of penile health issues in Europe that I'm unaware of? I would love to get a European's point of view on this.

My husband is from France

It's because of his input on the subject that I changed my way of thinking about circumcision. I used to be ambivalent about it and would have likely circumcised a baby just because it's common and familiar. But being with DH gave me a very good reason to reconsider the procedure and give it serious critical thought. All the fears and preconceived notions I had about penile health and hygiene sort of went out the window when I met him! We don't even have a son, but if/when we do, I'm happy that he helped me to make the most informed decision possible, and exposed me to a different way of thinking.

I have a friend whose daughter is the same age as our daughter, but she didn't know the sex of her baby until delivery. We debated circumcision, and her position was that she'd circumcise "so he'd look like the other kids and like his dad" even though she agreed that it wasn't necessary or something she felt good about - but she'd do it anyway. So there are lots of people who do this procedure without really putting tons of thought into it, and that's why I wanted to share my perspective on the matter.

 

[Autumnovember]

The whole "sex is better if you are uncut" thing is BS for one simple reason - unless you have experienced it BOTH WAYS you cannot legitimately say that.

My SO was circumcised a couple years ago at age 40.
He reports much less sensation.

Sample size: 1 - but there it is.

Was it a personal choice or medical? Don't have to share if you're not comfortable..

I'm not comfortable sharing; I feel bad enough revealing what I have.
I just did so in response to that BS comment. - PLUS I'll add it's from a woman.
I get lots of criticism here on PS when talking about certain woman-sensitive subjects so . . .
I'm just saying that that can go both ways.

I still suspect one of the origins of male and female circumcision is pious prudes wanting to reduce sexual pleasure in others; it's about control.
Over time it just became tradition ... wanting the son to look like dad.
I am not disputing the medical evidence.
Both just coexist AFAIC.

Totally understandable, Kenny.

 

[Dancing Fire]

The "cleanliness" argument is illogical. Just pull back and wash - how difficult is that? Yes, that means parents will have to wash their child's penis until he's old enough to do it correctly, and adult men have to take a few extra seconds to properly clean, therefore touching themselves. It's my opinion that part of the roots of male circumcision in our country is based on our puritanical history, but again, that's just my opinion and I accept that many will disagree.

i put mine into the HEATED ultrasonics cleaner ....

 

[ericad]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! DF, thanks for the visual. It's gonna stick in my mind's eye for the whole day...

Maybe I should suggest the Jewel Jet to DH...

 

[kenny]

Hahaha.

 

[somethingshiny]

DF~ That's how I keep my labia clean too. When DH sees it on the floor (hovering is obviously necessary) he gets all excited.

 

[Tuckins1]

DF~ That's how I keep my labia clean too. When DH sees it on the floor (hovering is obviously necessary) he gets all excited.

ROFLMAO!!!
What a visual!!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF~ That's how I keep my labia clean too. When DH sees it on the floor (hovering is obviously necessary) he gets all excited.

use a steamer instead of the US....

 

[somethingshiny]

I like the vibrations.

 

[kenny]

i put mine into the HEATED ultrasonics cleaner ....

So nothing ever comes loose and falls off?

 

[Dancing Fire]

i put mine into the HEATED ultrasonics cleaner ....

So nothing ever comes loose and falls off?

let me say this...if my jewels was gonna come loose and fall off then i'd prefer for it to happen in the US cleaner instead of out in the middle of a dark parking lot where it can roll all over the place.

 

[Kaleigh]

i put mine into the HEATED ultrasonics cleaner ....

So nothing ever comes loose and falls off?

let me say this...if my jewels was gonna come loose and fall off then i'd prefer for it to happen in the US cleaner instead of out in the middle of a dark parking lot where it can roll all over the place.

Now that is quite the visual DF!!!!!!

 

[MonkeyPie]

i put mine into the HEATED ultrasonics cleaner ....

So nothing ever comes loose and falls off?

let me say this...if my jewels was gonna come loose and fall off then i'd prefer for it to happen in the US cleaner instead of out in the middle of a dark parking lot where it can roll all over the place.

BWAHAHAHA!

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Maybe I should suggest the Jewel Jet to DH...

OF COURSE you should, Erica! What better way to clean the Family Jewels?!?!

 

[Dancing Fire]

I like the vibrations.

i see,anyhoo, most PSers do both...US first then steam it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! DF, thanks for the visual. It's gonna stick in my mind's eye for the whole day...

Maybe I should suggest the Jewel Jet to DH...

be sure to tell him to use tongs cuz the steam is very hot.

 

[Arkteia]

Coming back to the topic... Sorry I missed all fun. What makes me angry is the sum they are suing the hospital for. First of all, they are not suing the doctor (which is probably good). They are after the hospital because the doctor's insurance won't pay that much.

Supposedly a 40-year old died during a surgery that went wrong. Supposedly he was earning 100,000.00 per year. So you multiply projected number of years he could be the breadwinner on his projected salary which makes 2.5 mln. OK, 3 mln. if you add insurance, IRA, etc. But this baby is several days old, he has never been working, he has just been circumcised - and the sum is 3.5 mln? Just because they know the hospital has the capacity to pay? That is why it is "a battery, a mutilation", just because the hospital has the money to pay. Otherwise it would have been a simple malpractice suit. We have been manipulated into this discussion about circumcision being a battery, not a battery... What happens in hot tubs... Give me a break. There a probably grieving parents who ended up with a very smart lawyer. You can get more for your son's foreskin, he said. It is precious. It costs 3.5 mln. You've lost 3.5 mln., let's get it back!

 

[Porridge]

Can I just point out that nearly all male European babies are left intact (no circumcision). They seem to be doing alright, no? Is there an epidemic of penile health issues in Europe that I'm unaware of? I would love to get a European's point of view on this.

I am European. I was wondering if someone was going to bring it up - DF did mention the same regarding China earlier. You are right, circumcision is not the norm here. It's not unheard of, but to the best of my knowledge there are far more missing appendices,tonsils etc than there are missing foreskins. And no, no epidemics! Nor are there hygiene/smell issues. My thoughts on it are echo what EricaD outlined, most of us here can't for the life of us figure out why it's so popular elsewhere. It's a foreign concept, which is why I've stayed out of this thread so far. It's making for very interesting reading, it's not a topic I've heard discussed much.

On the subject of the lawsuit, I don't deny the parents' right to sue, however I think it's unnecessarily greedy to go after millions.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Also. If someone ( a doctor, no less) said "shit happens," I would not take it lying down. Sorry, you just brought it upon yourself.

You cannot just CUT someone and surgerize them without permission, no matter whether it was intentional or not. If a doctor fails to process written material correctly and proceeds with something that is Ok IN HIS MIND then that is HIS fault.

I agree...really whether circ is wrong or right, could cure every ailment or will be the downfall of society...the crux of the matter is a surgery was performed without permission.

ETA - Monarch, I just want to point out Cehra's first post on this page to you. She recognized that female circ and male circ are not the same thing, which is why she has been talking about the trimming of a girl's labia as a comparison to male circ instead.

Thanks, L&R...I was revisiting this discussion and searching for things that I unfortunately couldn't find before I posted my responses.

Cehra, I apologize -- I WAS out of line. I feel really strongly about female circumcision and especially in comparison to male circumcision. I'm sorry if I took it out on you unnecessarily.

I took it all in stride except the PS banishment - them are fighting words!!

Anyway, I wrote out this huge long thing and my computer restarted on me. You know when everything just flows and you make all of your points well and then can't even remember what you said? I lost my hardrive last week (broken hearted) and haven't worked all the tweaks on this to eliminate the surprise restarts. Grrrrrrr

I'll come back to this later lol

Anyway,