Be-treated sapphires questions

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 7:48:14 PM
Author: mufiin_top
TL,

I haven''t bought anything from this particular seller, but they appear to have a large invenbtory of spessartites like this that they have already sold, and that have glowing reviews.

So my point is that, yes, sure, there is a lot of crap to wade through, but I am fairly sure there are a few decent deals and gem sellers on ebay. Is that particular spess any good? I am not sure, but I would have kicked myself for not taking a chance on it when one like that goes for triple the price elsewhere. It can always ve returned for a refund: that''s my point.

Sure, it can be returned, but if you live in the United States like I do, it''s expensive to return something to Thailand. I have not seen the glowing reviews of that seller''s spessartites. Perhaps they do have great spessartites, all we are saying is that the photo is clearly photoshopped. If the stone was so great, why would the seller bother to enhance it so? We''re just cautioning, that''s all. If you want to buy it, that''s your perogative, and I hope the stone turns out to be beautiful.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 7:55:01 PM
Author: mufiin_top
TL,

I support the ongoing study and collection of rare gems and am glad there are those like you who keep it going. However, it''s not as if the hobby is about to die out any time soon.

Should I have a malrboro hanging out of my mouth when I say this?

For the rest of us, there''s sparklies that will be handed down as sparklies, not rare specimens.

That''s fine, and I respect your viewpoint. Many of us on Pricescope are serious collectors, and/or we place high value in natural untreated stones, so you will always have some argument on your point. It''s just the nature of the colored stone forum. Many of us are not only here to look at the eyecandy, but to educate the consumer to buy gems that are beautiful as well as rare (they don''t always have to be high priced either). To many of us, buying a be-treated sapphire is like throwing your money away.

 

[mufiin_top]

Thanks, but the possibility I can be bribed only makes me more enticed

Actually, my criteria for buying a gem from an seller is this:
1. Has an account at least 1 year old with at least 200 feedbacks and shows they are invested in their reputation.
2. Has little or no negative feedback (and what is there should be frivolous)
3. Has sold the type of item I am buying in the past more than once.
4. If I am dubious, a BBB accreditation is helpful
5. A fair money back return policy

So, all this in place, the risk is quite insignificant for a layperson who wants a sparkly and is prepared to get it checked out by a GG.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 7:59:55 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Thanks, but the possibility I can be bribed only makes me more enticed

Actually, my criteria for buying a gem from an seller is this:
1. Has an account at least 1 year old with at least 200 feedbacks and shows they are invested in their reputation.
2. Has little or no negative feedback (and what is there should be frivolous)
3. Has sold the type of item I am buying in the past more than once.
4. If I am dubious, a BBB accreditation is helpful
5. A fair money back return policy

So, all this in place, the risk is quite insignificant for a layperson who wants a sparkly and is prepared to get it checked out by a GG.

Here''s another criteria for you to look at. If the seller sells lots of stones for very cheap prices, watch out. Sure, someone will get tons of positive feedback if they only sell 99 cent stones. I look for sellers that sell stones for hundreds and even thousands of dollars, plus the criteria above. They should also offer the option to purchase a reputable lab certificate, and their feedback should be clean on toolhaus.org as well.

 

[mufiin_top]

"To many of us, buying a be-treated sapphire is like throwing your money away"

So are you saying that you don''t collect stones or see their value unless they are extremely rare and untreated? I don''t see the difference between a Be treated sapphire and a heat treated tanzanite and an oiled emerald as far as collectibility goes. But to each his own I guess. For me it''s about sparkle and durability because that is what I can afford. If it was about rare and natural exclusively, I''d sell all my gold and gems and buy a kashmir sapphire and be done with it

That said, my recent purchase of a red spinel was also out of appreciation for a stone that requires no treatments to be gorgeous.

 

[mufiin_top]

"
Here''s another criteria for you to look at. If the seller sells lots of stones for very cheap prices, watch out. Sure, someone will get tons of positive feedback if they only sell 99 cent stones. I look for sellers that sell stones for hundreds and even thousands of dollars, plus the criteria above. They should also offer the option to purchase a reputable lab certificate, and their feedback should be clean on toolhaus.org as well. "

Hence, rules #1. Has an account at least 1 year old with at least 200 feedbacks and shows they are invested in their reputation.
and rule #3: Has sold the type of item I am buying in the past more than once.

I should have specified in the same price range. Good point. But in any case the goal is to make sure they have invested in having a good reputation more so than the value of whatever I am buying from them.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 8:08:00 PM
Author: mufiin_top
'To many of us, buying a be-treated sapphire is like throwing your money away'

So are you saying that you don't collect stones or see their value unless they are extremely rare and untreated? I don't see the difference between a Be treated sapphire and a heat treated tanzanite and an oiled emerald as far as collectibility goes. But to each his own I guess. For me it's about sparkle and durability because that is what I can afford. If it was about rare and natural exclusively, I'd sell all my gold and gems and buy a kashmir sapphire and be done with it

That said, my recent purchase of a red spinel was also out of appreciation for a stone that requires no treatments to be gorgeous.

When I say "rare", most stones in the marketplace today are treated/synthesized in some way or fashion, and it's only getting worse. I went to the mall recently and it's pretty sad when the B&M stores don't sell even natural mined emeralds and sapphires anymore, but lab created ones. Therefore, when I say "rare," it's not that I mean to buy only a particular gem that is rare. What I mean by "rare" is the fact that a particular gem is a natural untreated stone. In the sad state of affairs in the retail world, "natural and untreated" is rare. That being said, Pricescope offers a connection to many fabulous dealers that sell untreated natural stones, so that's a good thing.

As for gentle heat vs be-heat, I'm not crazy about gentle heat either except in the case of paraiba tourmaline. I personally wouldn't want a heated sapphire. The only reason I would take a heated paraiba is that it's impossible to find an unheated one that is neon blue (they're typically grey or purple before heating). I do have an unheated violet one, and I treasure it because it's a rare color for tourmaline and untreated. However, value is considered much higher on a heated sapphire vs a be-heated sapphire, so to buy a heated sapphire does not mean you're throwing your money away.

You have different priorities and that's fine. There are gemstone "purists" like me, that prefer natural untreated gems. I don't have a problem at all with anyone wanting to spend their money on a treated gem. If they're going for a certain look without paying a high price, than that's their perogative, and totally fine. I just get a little upset when people buy synthetics or be-treated stones, or lead glass filled rubies since to me, this forum is not only about consumer education, but getting the best value for your money. I could be wrong, but that's how I look at Pricescope from my own personal viewpoint. To me, buying a be-heated stone, even if it was 99 cents, is like throwing your money away. JMO, that's all.

 

[mufiin_top]

I value your opinion, and obviously mine is not going to be popular always on this site. But I have been through the ringer looking for a round red spinel, I even upped my budget to 5k and still couldn''t find much out there. I got one off ebay recently and am really glad you told me about toolhause.org because on it I was able to verify that my seller has not one single neutral or negative feedback; so that is reassuring for me.

I will in the future be sharing this seller''s name on the forum. They sold an ASTOUNDING red spinel heart last month (over 3 carats and completely gemmy) for $2500 and I am barely able to breathe wondering what I would have done if I had seen it before it sold.

First, I want to see my spinel in person and have it checked out.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/4/2010 8:32:22 PM
Author: mufiin_top
I value your opinion, and obviously mine is not going to be popular always on this site. But I have been through the ringer looking for a round red spinel, I even upped my budget to 5k and still couldn''t find much out there. I got one off ebay recently and am really glad you told me about toolhause.org because on it I was able to verify that my seller has not one single neutral or negative feedback; so that is reassuring for me.

I will in the future be sharing this seller''s name on the forum. They sold an ASTOUNDING red spinel heart last month (over 3 carats and completely gemmy) for $2500 and I am barely able to breathe wondering what I would have done if I had seen it before it sold.

First, I want to see my spinel in person and have it checked out.

Thank you Muffin. This was a very fun discussion for me, and I appreciate your point of view, and respect it. Looking forward to hearing about your spinel. I have found a new appreciation for spinels because of Pricescope, and knowing that they''re untreated stones (although not unsynthesized). I recently bought a red Tanzanian spinel too, waiting to get it, but I made sure it was lab certified. I always worry about synthetic red spinel since the newest synthetics are very deceiving. Here''s an article about them FYI:

http://midtenn-gia-alumni.carrienunes.com/news/08-10_spinel.php

In fact, I would like to buy one of these synthetics just to have for study and to compare to the real thing, so therein is where a synthetic holds some "value" for me personally.

 

[Arcadian]

Date: 1/4/2010 8:08:00 PM
Author: mufiin_top
''To many of us, buying a be-treated sapphire is like throwing your money away''

So are you saying that you don''t collect stones or see their value unless they are extremely rare and untreated? I don''t see the difference between a Be treated sapphire and a heat treated tanzanite and an oiled emerald as far as collectibility goes. But to each his own I guess. For me it''s about sparkle and durability because that is what I can afford. If it was about rare and natural exclusively, I''d sell all my gold and gems and buy a kashmir sapphire and be done with it

That said, my recent purchase of a red spinel was also out of appreciation for a stone that requires no treatments to be gorgeous.

GIA and AGL would disagree with your statement.

-A

 

[mufiin_top]

Thanks for the article, in fact I was unaware that the spectroscope can no longer do the job of finding fake spinel. I will have to make sure my GG knows about this. Fortunately I have a real spinel I bought many years ago that I can bring with me to test the new one.

 

[T L]

If it has inclusions that are inherent to natural spinel, your GG, if he knows what he''s doing (trust me, not all of them do), will be able to identify it as natural. The synthetic material also has inclusions, therefore, just because a spinel has inclusions does not mean it''s natural. It''s the TYPE of inclusions that count.

 

[mufiin_top]

Actually, my natural spinel has no visible inclusions. and the one I bought on ebay has a few bubbles. I just assumed there is a scratch test or something. LOL. In any case I will try my durndest to get that sumbitch tested

 

[chrono]

Date: 1/4/2010 8:56:36 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
If it has inclusions that are inherent to natural spinel, your GG, if he knows what he''s doing (trust me, not all of them do), will be able to identify it as natural. The synthetic material also has inclusions, therefore, just because a spinel has inclusions does not mean it''s natural. It''s the TYPE of inclusions that count.

Ditto that. The new red spinel synthetics are awfully alike to natural red spinels.

 

[ma re]

Mufiin_top, I understand your viewpoint on buying affordable gems, but the reason you won''t see many folks agree with you here is due to rarity of some treated stones (some even don''t like stuff like citrine, cause there''s just too much of it around and they want something that isn''t seen in every B&M store). While it''s true that some pricey stones are treated as well, tanzanite for example, the difference is in the fact that you still need quite a rare material to get a fine tanzanite (they''re quite rare as a species, and they also don''t all turn out the exact same shade of rich blue (some turn out only pale blue even after heating). So a deep blue tanzanite is something that''s not easily atainable. On the other hand, take a look at this article:
http://wildfishgems.com/treatment
It clearly shows you what kind of material can be BE treated and turned into some fabulous looking stones. So material for BE treatment is readily available and very affordable. It''s also important to realize, that for the price some ask for BE stones you can buy some of other varieties that are much less common and much less invasively treated.
But to all it''s own, buy what''ll make you happy and what you''ll enjoy wearing

 

[LD]

Date: 1/4/2010 9:22:04 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Actually, my natural spinel has no visible inclusions. and the one I bought on ebay has a few bubbles. I just assumed there is a scratch test or something. LOL. In any case I will try my durndest to get that sumbitch tested

That can be an indication of filling / synthesing I'm afraid.

Having no visible inclusions is also a worrying feature as it can be an indication of synthetic.

 

[LD]

Date: 1/4/2010 7:59:55 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Thanks, but the possibility I can be bribed only makes me more enticed

Actually, my criteria for buying a gem from an seller is this:
1. Has an account at least 1 year old with at least 200 feedbacks and shows they are invested in their reputation.
2. Has little or no negative feedback (and what is there should be frivolous)
3. Has sold the type of item I am buying in the past more than once.
4. If I am dubious, a BBB accreditation is helpful
5. A fair money back return policy

So, all this in place, the risk is quite insignificant for a layperson who wants a sparkly and is prepared to get it checked out by a GG.

Oh crikey Mufin - unfortunately you''ll run into problems using this criteria for the following reasons:

1. Feedbacks are absolutely NOTHING to rely on - or how long somebody has had an account for. Search on this board and you''ll see plenty of Ebay sellers that have been consistently reviewed as providing bad bad bad synthetic, photoshopped gemstones and yet they have almost 98-99% feedback. Why? Because they try to bribe people to give them good feedback i.e. I''ll give you 20% refund if you leave good feedback (that happened to me) or people don''t understand a synthetic so just look at a pretty stone and give good feedback etc etc etc. Or they just don''t give feedback at all (which of course doesn''t show).

2. I wouldn''t rely on this at all. See above.

3. Somebody, for example, selling glass filled rubies may have sold 100 before it doesn''t mean they''re a good seller OR know their gemstones OR disclose them properly.

4. Only applicable in the US.

5. This is the one point I would totally agree with.

I have been collecting for years (like many on this forum). I have my own testing equipment and for important purchases, not only would I test myself but I would send it to a lab for certification. Irrespective of whether it comes with a certificate or not.

If you''re spending $50 then you could probably ignore all the above and just buy happily.

If you''re spending $50 on a regular basis then you could be throwing money away.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/5/2010 5:34:57 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/4/2010 9:22:04 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Actually, my natural spinel has no visible inclusions. and the one I bought on ebay has a few bubbles. I just assumed there is a scratch test or something. LOL. In any case I will try my durndest to get that sumbitch tested

That's an indication of filling I'm afraid.

Really LD? I thought the bubbles were an indication of it being natural. I thought they were either smaller crystals of spinel within the spinel, or some other natural inclusion. Cofor identified the bubbles in spinel in this thread.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/weird-inclusions-in-spinel-is-this-synthetic.110711/

 

[LD]

Date: 1/4/2010 8:08:00 PM
Author: mufiin_top
''To many of us, buying a be-treated sapphire is like throwing your money away''

So are you saying that you don''t collect stones or see their value unless they are extremely rare and untreated? I don''t see the difference between a Be treated sapphire and a heat treated tanzanite and an oiled emerald as far as collectibility goes. But to each his own I guess. For me it''s about sparkle and durability because that is what I can afford. If it was about rare and natural exclusively, I''d sell all my gold and gems and buy a kashmir sapphire and be done with it

That said, my recent purchase of a red spinel was also out of appreciation for a stone that requires no treatments to be gorgeous.

Tanzanites are nearly always heated - this is accepted for Tanzanites. Heating is merely finishing what nature started. Most unheated Tanzanites are a brownish colour. The heating either in the earth or by man is what gives them the glorious blue/purple.

Most Emeralds on the market today are oiled. Oiling has been carried out for centuries. Finding an Emerald without any treatment is exceptionally rare. Oiling is an accepted treatment. There are other treatments for Emeralds however that are NOT acceptable.

A sapphire (natural) or heated is desired by collectors and those that understand gemstones. BE diffusion is a man made treatment designed to make rubbish sapphires desirable i.e. making a silk purse out of a sow''s ear. The problem with this is that there are, unfortunately, many sellers who never disclose this treatment. Shopping television jewellery channels were routinely selling Padparadscha Sapphires saying they were "rare" to unsuspecting viewers. What were they? Normal sapphires treated with Beryllium to give them the appearance of a Pad. Are they rare? No. Are REAL Pads rare? Yes. The price point is also a million miles away from each other but I wonder how many members of the public are wandering around thinking they have an heirloom on their hand when all they have is a coloured sapphire?

As for Spinel? It''s one of the most commonly synthesized gemstones and unless you have testing equipment, it''s incredibly easy to be fooled

Sooooooooooooooooooooo, this is why you''ll see people on the coloured stone forum urging and encouraging people to do research and get gems thoroughly checked out by professionals with the appropriate testing equipment. Ebay is a minefield. Don''t get me wrong, there are some wonderful sellers on there with great gemstones but for every 1 of them there are 500 that aren''t.

Sorry that was a bit long ............ think I''ll go and lie down now!

 

[LD]

Date: 1/5/2010 6:02:43 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 1/5/2010 5:34:57 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/4/2010 9:22:04 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Actually, my natural spinel has no visible inclusions. and the one I bought on ebay has a few bubbles. I just assumed there is a scratch test or something. LOL. In any case I will try my durndest to get that sumbitch tested

That's an indication of filling I'm afraid.

Really LD? I thought the bubbles were an indication of it being natural. I thought they were either smaller crystals of spinel within the spinel, or some other natural inclusion. Cofor identified the bubbles in spinel in this thread.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/weird-inclusions-in-spinel-is-this-synthetic.110711/

Not necessarily. There was a GIA metapress article that discussed a cobalt blue spinel and said ..... "stone contains stringers of minute gas bubbles (fig- ure 10) accompanied by thread-like gas inclusions, both of which are typical of synthetic spinel ...."

I've seen gas bubbles in Rubies that were as a result of glass filling also.

If I see bubbles it starts alarm bells! They can of course be a natural phenomena BUT it's best to check!

Also see paragraph entitled "Microscopic examination ....." here http://www.jewelinfo4u.com/Spinel_Identification.aspx

And here, see "evaluation" http://www.gemtradenet.com/Education/blue_spinel.aspx

 

[T L]

Cool, thanks for the article LD.

Here are some examples of natural inclusions for spinel on this page. I see Cofor submitted one of these photos as well.

http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Spinel

 

[LD]

No worries TL. I remember your thread! Mind you, I think the gemstone had a severe case of measles and was probably natural because nobody would synthesize something like that lol!

 

[T L]

Date: 1/5/2010 6:24:33 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
No worries TL. I remember your thread! Mind you, I think the gemstone had a severe case of measles and was probably natural because nobody would synthesize something like that lol!

Actually LD, you never know. LOL!! I recently found out that synthetic diamonds can be riddled with inclusions. They are also synthesizing emeralds with inclusions to make them look more real. As always, buyer beware!!

Thanks again!

 

[LD]

Here''s a photo of gas bubbles I found in a Ruby. I bought this off Ebay(!), with a certificate that stated "natural" but when I found this, had it checked out by others and then confronted the Vendor I got all my money back!!! This is with darkfield illumination:

 

[T L]

Date: 1/5/2010 6:32:11 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Here''s a photo of gas bubbles I found in a Ruby. I bought this off Ebay(!), with a certificate that stated ''natural'' but when I found this, had it checked out by others and then confronted the Vendor I got all my money back!!! This is with darkfield illumination:

I find rubies to be total rubbish on ebay, I stay away from them like the plague. 99% of them are lead glass filled, and the ones that are not, are too ugly to even bother with (they look more like garnets than rubies). Unfortunately with rubies, if you want a good one, you really have to pay through the nose to a a very reputable dealer.

This example is prime of what I warn people about on ebay, just because something comes with a certificate that says "natural" doesn''t mean it''s not heavily treated (resin or glass filled, nuked, diffused, etc. . . ). The certificate can give you false piece of mind, therefore, it''s always good to get one that indicates the full level of treatment as well. As far as I know, natural spinels are not filled, or treated in anyway, but I should research that more.

 

[LD]

Just wanted to confirm that this was a few years ago!!!!! Just in case you thought I was stalking Ebay for Rubies!

 

[T L]

No, I only think you stalk ebay for mystic topaz.

 

[LD]

You got me!

 

[Arkteia]

Since new berillium treatment goes all the way through the stone, is it possible for GIA or GUbelin to make a mistake? What would be the "trademark" of be treatment? I MSN-ed Richard Hughes'' article about Be treatment, but I think it applied to old, surface-like diffusion.

Like TL, I usually prefer totally untreated stones. A year ago I bought not-so-good Ceylon sapphire from a dealer going out of business. It has a small crystal inclusion (spinel?) in it. To me, it is a sign of authenticity, but would Be treatment eliminate it?

For people looking only for natural stones, new ways of enancement are a serious problem.

Re, spessartines. I bought about 5 of them on ebay; all of them were real, but only one had a decent cut and sparkle. It is not orange, it is red-orange, 1.6 ct stone. I would be wary of buying a 4+ ct - spess. online simply because usually a good cut + color 4+ct spessartite would not be sold there. It can be easily resold retail at $ 1200-1600 in the US.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/5/2010 12:58:03 PM
Author: crasru
Since new berillium treatment goes all the way through the stone, is it possible for GIA or GUbelin to make a mistake? What would be the ''trademark'' of be treatment? I MSN-ed Richard Hughes'' article about Be treatment, but I think it applied to old, surface-like diffusion.

Like TL, I usually prefer totally untreated stones. A year ago I bought not-so-good Ceylon sapphire from a dealer going out of business. It has a small crystal inclusion (spinel?) in it. To me, it is a sign of authenticity, but would Be treatment eliminate it?

For people looking only for natural stones, new ways of enancement are a serious problem.

Re, spessartines. I bought about 5 of them on ebay; all of them were real, but only one had a decent cut and sparkle. It is not orange, it is red-orange, 1.6 ct stone. I would be wary of buying a 4+ ct - spess. online simply because usually a good cut + color 4+ct spessartite would not be sold there. It can be easily resold retail at $ 1200-1600 in the US.

It should be easy for them to tell it''s BE-heated I would imagine. They do look for the chemical markers and specific inclusions that are inherent to be-treated stones.

I''m glad I bought my 4 carat spessartite pear several years ago. I highly doubt I would never be able to get that color on ebay for the price I paid back then. Some of the new Tanzanian find is on ebay for relatively good prices, but they tend to be yellower, and very included.