Be-treated sapphires questions

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/5/2010 5:34:57 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/4/2010 9:22:04 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Actually, my natural spinel has no visible inclusions. and the one I bought on ebay has a few bubbles. I just assumed there is a scratch test or something. LOL. In any case I will try my durndest to get that sumbitch tested

That can be an indication of filling / synthesing I''m afraid.

Having no visible inclusions is also a worrying feature as it can be an indication of synthetic.

LD, The spinel I recently returned to Pala was chalk full of bubbles. Far more than the one I got off ebay...so if that''s the case then who can I trust?

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/5/2010 5:54:27 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/4/2010 7:59:55 PM
Author: mufiin_top
Thanks, but the possibility I can be bribed only makes me more enticed

Actually, my criteria for buying a gem from an seller is this:
1. Has an account at least 1 year old with at least 200 feedbacks and shows they are invested in their reputation.
2. Has little or no negative feedback (and what is there should be frivolous)
3. Has sold the type of item I am buying in the past more than once.
4. If I am dubious, a BBB accreditation is helpful
5. A fair money back return policy

So, all this in place, the risk is quite insignificant for a layperson who wants a sparkly and is prepared to get it checked out by a GG.

Oh crikey Mufin - unfortunately you''ll run into problems using this criteria for the following reasons:

1. Feedbacks are absolutely NOTHING to rely on - or how long somebody has had an account for. Search on this board and you''ll see plenty of Ebay sellers that have been consistently reviewed as providing bad bad bad synthetic, photoshopped gemstones and yet they have almost 98-99% feedback. Why? Because they try to bribe people to give them good feedback i.e. I''ll give you 20% refund if you leave good feedback (that happened to me) or people don''t understand a synthetic so just look at a pretty stone and give good feedback etc etc etc. Or they just don''t give feedback at all (which of course doesn''t show).

2. I wouldn''t rely on this at all. See above.

3. Somebody, for example, selling glass filled rubies may have sold 100 before it doesn''t mean they''re a good seller OR know their gemstones OR disclose them properly.

4. Only applicable in the US.

5. This is the one point I would totally agree with.

I have been collecting for years (like many on this forum). I have my own testing equipment and for important purchases, not only would I test myself but I would send it to a lab for certification. Irrespective of whether it comes with a certificate or not.

If you''re spending $50 then you could probably ignore all the above and just buy happily.

If you''re spending $50 on a regular basis then you could be throwing money away.

I hate to disagree with you LD, as I am sure you know more about gems than me, but the bottom line is that I could get a bad product ANYWHERE, and I am taking no more of risk from buying off ebay than I am anywhere else, using my criteria. I have been using ebay for over ten years to buy all kinds of stuff and have rarely had any problems returning something with a problem. I am not in the gem trade and can afford the risk of having to return something. That is why I would say that buying a pricey gem on ebay is just fine as long as I can return it, and as long as I get it properly checked out. I have the time to spare, unline somebody who makes a living at this.

 

[LD]

Mufin - it''s not ALWAYS a sign of treating but it''s an indication that you need to investigate further. I would seriously doubt that Pala would be selling synthetics. Okay, every Vendor will get caught out once in a while but looking at inclusions and knowing when to ask further questions is becoming more important as advances are made in synthetics and treatments etc.

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/5/2010 6:07:30 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/4/2010 8:08:00 PM
Author: mufiin_top
''To many of us, buying a be-treated sapphire is like throwing your money away''

So are you saying that you don''t collect stones or see their value unless they are extremely rare and untreated? I don''t see the difference between a Be treated sapphire and a heat treated tanzanite and an oiled emerald as far as collectibility goes. But to each his own I guess. For me it''s about sparkle and durability because that is what I can afford. If it was about rare and natural exclusively, I''d sell all my gold and gems and buy a kashmir sapphire and be done with it

That said, my recent purchase of a red spinel was also out of appreciation for a stone that requires no treatments to be gorgeous.

Tanzanites are nearly always heated - this is accepted for Tanzanites. Heating is merely finishing what nature started. Most unheated Tanzanites are a brownish colour. The heating either in the earth or by man is what gives them the glorious blue/purple.

Most Emeralds on the market today are oiled. Oiling has been carried out for centuries. Finding an Emerald without any treatment is exceptionally rare. Oiling is an accepted treatment. There are other treatments for Emeralds however that are NOT acceptable.

A sapphire (natural) or heated is desired by collectors and those that understand gemstones. BE diffusion is a man made treatment designed to make rubbish sapphires desirable i.e. making a silk purse out of a sow''s ear. The problem with this is that there are, unfortunately, many sellers who never disclose this treatment. Shopping television jewellery channels were routinely selling Padparadscha Sapphires saying they were ''rare'' to unsuspecting viewers. What were they? Normal sapphires treated with Beryllium to give them the appearance of a Pad. Are they rare? No. Are REAL Pads rare? Yes. The price point is also a million miles away from each other but I wonder how many members of the public are wandering around thinking they have an heirloom on their hand when all they have is a coloured sapphire?

As for Spinel? It''s one of the most commonly synthesized gemstones and unless you have testing equipment, it''s incredibly easy to be fooled

Sooooooooooooooooooooo, this is why you''ll see people on the coloured stone forum urging and encouraging people to do research and get gems thoroughly checked out by professionals with the appropriate testing equipment. Ebay is a minefield. Don''t get me wrong, there are some wonderful sellers on there with great gemstones but for every 1 of them there are 500 that aren''t.

Sorry that was a bit long ............ think I''ll go and lie down now!

Hi LD,

I appreciate you are trying to educate me, but I have been reading up on gems for several years now. I just don''t share yours and several others'' opinion about Be treatments knowing they are generally stable. I don''t see much wrong with them. It''s just a matter of personal taste. There are also plenty of vendors who sell heated sapphire and don''t disclose it or even bother to epxlain it, so I don''t distiqnguish Be as being much different. I am here because I want to make sure I get what I pay for, which in turn supports honest trading and gem education. However, I am not a collector the way you guys are, and don''t plan on becoming one. So if we differ in our viewpoints that is OK with me

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/5/2010 3:03:26 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Mufin - it''s not ALWAYS a sign of treating but it''s an indication that you need to investigate further. I would seriously doubt that Pala would be selling synthetics. Okay, every Vendor will get caught out once in a while but looking at inclusions and knowing when to ask further questions is becoming more important as advances are made in synthetics and treatments etc.

LD, from my perspective, whether or not a spinel has bubbles, I am going to get it checked out. Like I said, since I am not in the trade, I have no reason to just automatically assume any vendor I use is reliable. Anything I spend more than a few bucks on is going to get checked out. That''s one reason why I am here; to make sure my GG does their job.

BTW Since I don''t particularly care for sapphires, I guess that is why I see nothing wrong with Be treated ones, and wouldn''t pay more than a Be treated price anyways.

 

[LD]

Muffin glad to hear your thoughts on it. Just a word of caution though if YOU are having to educate your GG or need to check they''re doing their job, I''d be changing GG immediately!

By the way, just for reference, BE is now being applied to other gemstones. I think we all need a degree in treatmentology to keep up with the heaters/treaters

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/5/2010 3:30:14 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Muffin glad to hear your thoughts on it. Just a word of caution though if YOU are having to educate your GG or need to check they''re doing their job, I''d be changing GG immediately!

By the way, just for reference, BE is now being applied to other gemstones. I think we all need a degree in treatmentology to keep up with the heaters/treaters

Hi LD,
My choices of a GG are limited to Michigan within driving distance, so I have to do my homework unfortunately...and as of now have yet to find out much about the GG I will be using.

 

[LD]

I''m not in the US Muffin so am of no use to you about finding somebody to help but I think there was a list somewhere (I think it used to be at the top of this forum) of appraisers throughout the US - perhaps it might give you a few more options? I''ve got no idea though and so am purely guessing. I think you can always send your stones to appraisers as well. I don''t know what the turn around time is like but perhaps that would be an option if you find somebody you trust?

 

[Arcadian]

If you click Resources which is located at the top right on the page, you''ll get the pulldown to look up appraisers. I''m in Massachusetts and have lots of options for gem appraisals (including sending them to NY)

So with that, imma say Mufin, you need to for sure do you because its obvious you know what you want. From what I read here and on the diamond forum, no amount of common sense is going to sway that.

By the same token, you get the side eye because your 2 years of knowing about gems don''t exactly come through in some of your postings. jus sayin.

good luck to you girlfriend.

-A

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/5/2010 2:57:44 PM
Author: mufiin_top

Date: 1/5/2010 5:34:57 AM

Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/4/2010 9:22:04 PM

Author: mufiin_top

Actually, my natural spinel has no visible inclusions. and the one I bought on ebay has a few bubbles. I just assumed there is a scratch test or something. LOL. In any case I will try my durndest to get that sumbitch tested

That can be an indication of filling / synthesing I''m afraid.


Having no visible inclusions is also a worrying feature as it can be an indication of synthetic.

LD, The spinel I recently returned to Pala was chalk full of bubbles. Far more than the one I got off ebay...so if that''s the case then who can I trust?

I am surprised to hear that Pala sells low-quality spinel. So far my experience with them has been only positive. There once was a questionable situation about heat-treatment (not a sapphire or a ruby) but they allowed the stone to be sent to AGTA for inspection and overall were always very, very cooperative. With their volume, minor issues could be expected, but "a chalk full of bubbles"...is unlikely.

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/5/2010 4:40:39 PM
Author: Arcadian
If you click Resources which is located at the top right on the page, you''ll get the pulldown to look up appraisers. I''m in Massachusetts and have lots of options for gem appraisals (including sending them to NY)

So with that, imma say Mufin, you need to for sure do you because its obvious you know what you want. From what I read here and on the diamond forum, no amount of common sense is going to sway that.

By the same token, you get the side eye because your 2 years of knowing about gems don''t exactly come through in some of your postings. jus sayin.

good luck to you girlfriend.

-A

Well, meow to you too!

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/5/2010 8:14:37 PM
Author: crasru

Date: 1/5/2010 2:57:44 PM
Author: mufiin_top

Date: 1/5/2010 5:34:57 AM

Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/4/2010 9:22:04 PM

Author: mufiin_top

Actually, my natural spinel has no visible inclusions. and the one I bought on ebay has a few bubbles. I just assumed there is a scratch test or something. LOL. In any case I will try my durndest to get that sumbitch tested

That can be an indication of filling / synthesing I''m afraid.


Having no visible inclusions is also a worrying feature as it can be an indication of synthetic.

LD, The spinel I recently returned to Pala was chalk full of bubbles. Far more than the one I got off ebay...so if that''s the case then who can I trust?

I am surprised to hear that Pala sells low-quality spinel. So far my experience with them has been only positive. There once was a questionable situation about heat-treatment (not a sapphire or a ruby) but they allowed the stone to be sent to AGTA for inspection and overall were always very, very cooperative. With their volume, minor issues could be expected, but ''a chalk full of bubbles''...is unlikely.

I have no issues with Pala. But I know inclusions when I see them, and it was my fault to buy the stone without asking about inclusions first. In any case, that isn''t why I returned the stone. Simmer!

 

[arjunajane]

Agree with you Arcadian.


LD, although I admire your tenacity my feeling is you are wasting your energy in this thread.
"Controversial" or argumentative threads by the OP have been started so far in 3 different sections of the forums and personally I smell a rat.

 

[LD]

Date: 1/6/2010 2:58:42 AM
Author: arjunajane
Agree with you Arcadian.


LD, although I admire your tenacity my feeling is you are wasting your energy in this thread.
''Controversial'' or argumentative threads by the OP have been started so far in 3 different sections of the forums and personally I smell a rat.

I have to say AJ after reading through everything I reckon you and Arcadian may be right. I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt but anybody who''s been reading up on gems for two years and then thinks there''s a "scratch test" that can be applied to a gem?

I also think it''s a first that somebody has joined this part of the forum and then said they thought BE treatment was great and even possibly an heirloom piece. Sorry Muffin but I''m afraid that you won''t find many in agreement.

 

[mariedtiger]

Date: 1/5/2010 3:30:14 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Muffin glad to hear your thoughts on it. Just a word of caution though if YOU are having to educate your GG or need to check they're doing their job, I'd be changing GG immediately!


By the way, just for reference, BE is now being applied to other gemstones. I think we all need a degree in treatmentology to keep up with the heaters/treaters

I didn't know this LD, and was surprised as I just saw a morganite with BE treatment at Multicolour. My heart sank.

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/6/2010 2:58:42 AM
Author: arjunajane
Agree with you Arcadian.



LD, although I admire your tenacity my feeling is you are wasting your energy in this thread.

''Controversial'' or argumentative threads by the OP have been started so far in 3 different sections of the forums and personally I smell a rat.

Just because my opinions are controversial or humorous doesn''t make me a rat. If you are so busy policing my threads, I''d say it''s a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I have nothing to hide but a few of you are extremely keen on suggesting I do. Rather than vague accusations to discredit me come with a real solid fact about something, OK?

 

[mufiin_top]

Date: 1/6/2010 4:50:55 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 1/6/2010 2:58:42 AM

Author: arjunajane

Agree with you Arcadian.



LD, although I admire your tenacity my feeling is you are wasting your energy in this thread.

''Controversial'' or argumentative threads by the OP have been started so far in 3 different sections of the forums and personally I smell a rat.

I have to say AJ after reading through everything I reckon you and Arcadian may be right. I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt but anybody who''s been reading up on gems for two years and then thinks there''s a ''scratch test'' that can be applied to a gem?

I also think it''s a first that somebody has joined this part of the forum and then said they thought BE treatment was great and even possibly an heirloom piece. Sorry Muffin but I''m afraid that you won''t find many in agreement.

Hi, Ummm, LD, first of all I was kidding about a "scratch test", I do know that is only done with metals typically. Second, I never said I read up on gemns for two years, I said for some years, not two. In fact, I have read about gems on and off for over ten years. That doesn''t mean I know as much as serious collectors, but I wanted to make it clear that I''m not completely ingorant to gem treatments because I didn''t want you or anyone else to spend so much time thinking they are educating me on the basics.

I am really tired of vague accusations, that I frankly don''t feel I deserve. I am opinionated and sometimes silly, but haven''t at any point been disrespectful towards ANYONE. That is about all.

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 1/6/2010 10:15:46 AM
Author: mariedtiger

Date: 1/5/2010 3:30:14 PM

Author: LovingDiamonds

Muffin glad to hear your thoughts on it. Just a word of caution though if YOU are having to educate your GG or need to check they''re doing their job, I''d be changing GG immediately!



By the way, just for reference, BE is now being applied to other gemstones. I think we all need a degree in treatmentology to keep up with the heaters/treaters

I didn''t know this LD, and was surprised as I just saw a morganite with BE treatment at Multicolour. My heart sank.

Somebodies joking around with this one I think. Since morganite is "beryllium silicate" it can''t be treated with beryllium. I was reading something the other day where the author was speculating that the Thai heat treaters had discovered beryllium treating after having left a piece of aqua or morganite in with their sapphire to be treated. The beryllium having supposedly been removed from the aqua and diffused through the surrounding sapphire. Kind of dangerous I would imagine, since beryllium, by itself, is awfully toxic.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 1/6/2010 10:21:15 AM
Author: mufiin_top

Date: 1/6/2010 2:58:42 AM

Author: arjunajane

Agree with you Arcadian.




LD, although I admire your tenacity my feeling is you are wasting your energy in this thread.


''Controversial'' or argumentative threads by the OP have been started so far in 3 different sections of the forums and personally I smell a rat.

Just because my opinions are controversial or humorous doesn''t make me a rat. If you are so busy policing my threads, I''d say it''s a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I have nothing to hide but a few of you are extremely keen on suggesting I do. Rather than vague accusations to discredit me come with a real solid fact about something, OK?

No, I have not spent two years and over 8k posts wasting my (or others'') time

I''m not going to "call you out" on anything specifically, but despite what many ppl think its quite easy to tell when the elements of someone''s story don''t add up online..

If i''m not correct, than good luck to you.

 

[mariedtiger]

Date: 1/6/2010 7:29:10 PM
Author: Michael_E

Date: 1/6/2010 10:15:46 AM

Author: mariedtiger

Date: 1/5/2010 3:30:14 PM


Author: LovingDiamonds



By the way, just for reference, BE is now being applied to other gemstones. I think we all need a degree in treatmentology to keep up with the heaters/treaters

I didn't know this LD, and was surprised as I just saw a morganite with BE treatment at Multicolour. My heart sank.

Somebodies joking around with this one I think. Since morganite is 'beryllium silicate' it can't be treated with beryllium. I was reading something the other day where the author was speculating that the Thai heat treaters had discovered beryllium treating after having left a piece of aqua or morganite in with their sapphire to be treated. The beryllium having supposedly been removed from the aqua and diffused through the surrounding sapphire. Kind of dangerous I would imagine, since beryllium, by itself, is awfully toxic.

Michael, I appreciate you chiming in. I checked the link again. There are three treated morganites on the site, of a pretty strong pink and it says they are treated with "beryllium" in parenthesis?

http://www.multicolour.com/detail/?/details/single/morganite/ymo117ab/&1244716636

It's just weird since David tends to be accurate in his descriptions. But physics don't lie, so maybe it's a misunderstanding in some way.

Interesting any way!