beautiful OEC ring

[amelie_violette]

Dear Psers,

it took me a while to take the courage to subscribe as a member. I love this forum and I am a bit intimidated by your knowledge.
However, I feel I really need some help on this one.

I am thinking of picking an antique ring for my engagement. On this website, I have learned a lot on modern cut stones, and got more familiar with the Tools section. But would the HCA be useful also for an old cut (OEC) stone?

On top of that, the seller's listing does not show angles and percentages, just diameter and depth.

I adore the ring, but I am wondering a bit whether I should first get it appraised by an independent jeweler. It's a very important purchase, and I'm trying to make sure we do it right.

Also, from what I can see in the pictures, the stone has a more intricate pattern as compared with the other OEC I have seen. Perhaps more of a cushion?

I will try to upload a picture or two

 

[amelie_violette]

I hope it works

 

[yennyfire]

Hi and Welcome!

Don't be intimidated....each and every person here started out knowing a lot less than they do now.

The HCA is only helpful for MRBs and is used to exclude stones (i.e. weed them out). It is not meant to select a stone, only to tell you which ones to skip.

It's hard to tell a whole lot from the photo you've shown. What is the depth and price? You'd really need measurements since old cuts tend to face up smaller than their modern counterparts. You want to make sure you're not paying for a stone that is 2.0 cts but faces up like a 1.5 ct.

I don't think it's ever a bad ideas to have a stone vetted by an independent appraiser. Where are you located? Hopefully, one of the well respected appraisers here on PS will be near you.

What's the return policy? If there isn't one, I'd walk away. If there is one, I'd see if they would agree to send it to the IA for you for evaluation and then you'd make a decision, but only if the price is REALLY good.

If this price isn't great on this ring, I'd walk away and go with one of the more proven old stone vendors, such as GOG, OWD, JBeg, or Singlestone (there may be a couple of others people would recommend as well). Unless you'd be getting a good price, I think paying a little more for peace of mind and great customer service is worth it.

Hope this helps!

 

[amelie_violette]

Hi Yennyfire!!

thanks for your kind words and for your suggestions.
I really hope to learn a lot too and to have some good chats over here

The measurements given by the seller are -I feel- not very precise. I found it odd that she only gave me one diameter measurement (other OECs I have seen always state two). Anyways, what I have is 8,2 diameter per 5 mm depth.

The center stone is just a little over 2 carats and said to be a VS. Color wise, she did not give me a precise estimation, just said it faces up sometimes very white, sometimes warm. Pictures in different lighting seem to confirm this.

Unfortunately it does seem like there are no PS appraisers living in Europe. Is this true?
I am therefore considering other options. Would an appraiser be able to tell also about crown and pavillion angles or only about color, clarity, and measurements?

The ring, complete with setting and side stones (another 1,2 carats) is around 13.500 dollars. That said, I have no idea whether this is a good price or not.

I have seen some beautiful things on JBEG, but living abroad I am afraid I could not justify the 20% plus taxes, so I think I should try to search locally if I can.

 

[amelie_violette]

forgot to add. There seems to be a return policy.
However, I am asking the vendor if I could have the ring appraised before purchase.

I feel it would be painful to return what we thought was our engagement ring, and that my boyfriend would be very disappointed.

 

[yennyfire]

It is a bit odd that you only got one measurement. That implies that the stone is perfectly round, which old stones rarely are. Do you have any other photos? I'd be hard pressed to buy a ring with a price tag like that based on one photo.

For comparison, here's a J/VS2 from OWD that's $12,100 USD. Without having any idea of color though, the price of the ring you're looking at could be way off (and generally speaking, they are way off in the seller's favor, not yours).

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/detail.php?ID=1986&SHAPE=EU

Here's an L/SI1 for $8600 USD(assuming that the seller is off on clarity and the color is on the warmer side):

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/detail.php?ID=1986&SHAPE=EU

So you see, without a good appraisal, there's no way to know if this is a reasonable price for the ring or not. It does not look like European appraisers have been added yet, but I know some of the European ladies have mentioned a couple of folks. Maybe post a thread in Rocky Talk asking for a referral for a European appraiser?

As for getting it, looking at it and deciding to return it and disappointing your bf, that's part of the process with old stones. It's not often someone gets one right the first time. Many of us have returned multiple stones before finding the right one for us.
If that's not going to work for your bf, then I'd definitely go with one of the full service vendors who can send you video with side by side comparison of more than one stone.

Please keep us posted on your search!

 

[Rosebloom]

Without knowing more, that price seems quite high. Proceed with caution! Yenny gave you some wonderful advise.

 

[amelie_violette]

It is a bit odd that you only got one measurement. That implies that the stone is perfectly round, which old stones rarely are. Do you have any other photos? I'd be hard pressed to buy a ring with a price tag like that based on one photo.

For comparison, here's a J/VS2 from OWD that's $12,100 USD. Without having any idea of color though, the price of the ring you're looking at could be way off (and generally speaking, they are way off in the seller's favor, not yours).

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/detail.php?ID=1986&SHAPE=EU

Here's an L/SI1 for $8600 USD(assuming that the seller is off on clarity and the color is on the warmer side):

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/detail.php?ID=1986&SHAPE=EU

So you see, without a good appraisal, there's no way to know if this is a reasonable price for the ring or not. It does not look like European appraisers have been added yet, but I know some of the European ladies have mentioned a couple of folks. Maybe post a thread in Rocky Talk asking for a referral for a European appraiser?

As for getting it, looking at it and deciding to return it and disappointing your bf, that's part of the process with old stones. It's not often someone gets one right the first time. Many of us have returned multiple stones before finding the right one for us.
If that's not going to work for your bf, then I'd definitely go with one of the full service vendors who can send you video with side by side comparison of more than one stone.

Please keep us posted on your search!

Hi Yenny and Roseboom, thank you for your help!

I think the J stone from OWD is much whiter than the one in the ring. Given that the one already set looks very very white in natural light and jellow in dim light or artificial light, I think it could be a low color stone with fluo.

Admittedly, OWD seems to have good prices. My concern stays in the fact that should I import a stone from the US, I would have an hard time sending it back because of the import fees. So either I wait until I catch a flight to US for work (and that could be anywhere between 6 and 18 months), or I settle for an European seller.

Aside of that, I am wondering how I would set an antique stone that comes 'naked'.
I guess I'm not very good at this game. My idea for a halo is that I cycle around quite some, and I would be afraid of doing so with an exposed girdle. Not that I fall all the time (actually, never! ), but sports are always somewhat rough on jewerly, aren't they?
And I don't want to take my e-ring off all the time.

While I ponder about these things, I will post another couple of pictures.
The vendor has been really nice and sent me over some videos too. The only reason I have not yet disclosed them is that I fear someone could snap it up. Perhaps I should ask her to reserve it for me, but I wanted some opinions before I do, and so far they do not seem too positive.

I will post another couple of pictures in the meantime. I hope they don't turn out huge as the last one

 

[amelie_violette]

here it looks pretty white to me

 

[amelie_violette]

the crown is really quite high, I think. Since the spread sounds normal for the size, does it mean the pavillion could be too shallow?

 

[ariel144]

the crown is really quite high, I think. Since the spread sounds normal for the size, does it mean the pavillion could be too shallow?

The depth is about 61% based on those measurements given 8.2mm x 5mm depth. You can't go by standards on the pavillion with old cuts.

You might want to check out this article and the chart for old cuts, but you don't have enough specs on that stone:

Modern Quest for Old cut diamonds

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/modern-quest-old-cut-diamonds

Home >> Articles >> The Modern Quest for Old Cut Diamonds
The Modern Quest for Old Cut Diamonds
Fri, 06/29/2012 - 17:17 -David Atlas


Over the past few years there has been a marked increase in the purchase of old cut style diamonds. We more and more often deal with questions from consumers who are considering both newly minted old style cuts and authentic old cut diamonds. Of course, the diamond material is hundreds of thousands of years old anyway, but there are those who wish to go “new” or “old” and those who just want the old look. A further layer of unknowns crop up when a client wants to differentiate from an unrestored old cut from an old looking stone that may have been more recently repaired or lightly modified for one of several reasons. Then, there are those people looking for all the best look of an old cut in a newly minted old looking diamond, which has the high light return features available utilizing more recent diamond cutting knowledge and techniques that did not exist a 100 years ago.

How can a consumer master all the knowledge needed to select a modern cut diamond and then add the additional knowledge they know they require aiding them in selecting the best old cut diamond? Since fewer old cut diamonds are in the market there are less to choose from and to compare. Because some may be brought into the market second hand and others are newly cut, the prices asked can be difficult to compare. Toss in the fact that many of these old cuts have lab reports from questionably reliable labs, which further degrade comparison, and you have a highly complex issue when it comes to making an informed decision. Believe me, I can’t tell which ones I’d choose sight unseen, and although some consumers are truly well informed and diligent, I promise you that they can’t know the unknowable better than a person who has spent the past 45 years working on making such decisions.

Here is a link to my Cut Grade Chart for Old European Cut Diamonds. I think it highlights the best features at the upper ranges of 1 and 2, and it gives consumers a good handle on the weaker features as we get into the 3 to 4 range. Again, this is not the way to “choose” your ultimate diamond, but a way to assist you to “screen out” or to “inform” you of issues related to a particular diamond.



Chips and Recutting
A consumer recently asked me about a chip under a prong. The stone was an older cut. The photos do not show the chip clearly, but it looked smallish. Most can be fixed with a low cost and very little weight loss, but the symmetry grade may take a hit even if the clarity grade goes up a bit. Leaving a chip might create a weak place for further damage to occur. Fixing the chip and improving the symmetry to a decent level will lose more weight, and cost more to fix. It will not really change the value no matter what you do, but you surely can spend money on the repairs. The real trade off is that the diamond may be less likely to have further damage after it is recut properly. You still have choices as to cutting it and leaving it looking like an old cut, or in some cases, one could justify cutting it to a modern cut style. Few consumers want a modern cut when they are shopping for an older looking stone, but diamond dealers may well recut the right diamond to a modern look. This divergence in desires leads to more scarcity of some old cuts in the market.

Vintage-Style Cuts vs. Authentic Old-Cut Diamonds
The newly minted old cuts being offered as branded cuts by several vendors do have the right old look. Maybe they are a bit too perfect for some of you, but that is what the goal was when they were designed. They are idealized antique cut stones. The authentic old cuts offered by other vendors have no brand or consistency of cut, but they may have price benefits attached since they are generally second hand purchases and not made from new rough. Conditions, such as abrasions and chips further confuse consumers with authentic old cuts. Newly cut diamonds tend to have the polish and symmetry details completely in good order.

No doubt, compare and learn. Take the time and go to the expense of seeing a diamond in person whenever possible. Consult with an expert if you feel you have lost your way and need some help, too. There is no denying that old cuts have a rather distinctive look and their own place in the retail market. The individuality of old cuts adds levels of questions, knowledge and information required to get to the right diamond.

What can an experienced appraiser do for you?
The appraiser may be able to date the period in which an Old Mine cushion or Old European round was cut, can examine it thoroughly for damage and durability, and possibly determine if a stone is newly cut, old, or mostly old and just a bit re-polished. And most importantly, an appraiser can value the stone. Some appraisers are experienced with re-cutting and repair of diamonds and will be able to give you guidance in regard to any repairs that might be of importance.



What can you do for yourself?
A consumer can shop, learn, ask questions and compare similar diamonds. You have to learn how to use more than your wallet to understand this complex subject. There are wonderful examples of newly fashioned old mine cut cushions being sold by some vendors, which have all the visual attributes one may find enchanting and especially beautiful. The trick for a consumer who is dedicated to finding the best combination of “the deal” and the “most beautiful diamond” at their price range, is to have the patience to weed out the many third and fourth level stones which have visual and/or condition and durability issues.



Old-Cut and Vintage-Style Diamond Visual Comparison
For those of you who like to see a side-by-side visual comparison, I have copied a few photos from online vendors who are also participants on Pricescope or have substantial inventories listed.

The two diamonds with black backgrounds appear to me to represent the appearance of what I’d call “average cut." These two images were borrowed from educational pages on Blue Nile and not likely representative of what they may have to sell. These can be compared to three samples photos borrowed for our education from Jewels by Erica Grace, which are authentically old antique cut diamonds and three more borrowed from GoodOldGold.com. One image is of the newly cut, August Vintage Old Mine Cushion, and the other two images are of two finely crafted Old European cut diamonds.

The consumer should note the life and individuality of Old Mine and Old European cut stones. They perform differently than modern cut round diamonds. Some may find this most attractive while the majority will simply prefer the look of modern cut stones. Everyone is entitled to pick what they ultimately prefer.

In the second group of images (Old Mine Cuts), please note the appearance of total symmetry in the image of the newly-styled Old Mine cut from GOG with the deep blue background. These recently cut stones with their old cut configuration stand out in their own way. They have many old cut attributes and are a hybrid which conforms to the cut symmetry and polish of today’s modern stones. The have their own look. You be the judge and jury.

Old European Cuts


The Old Euro stones (four diamonds shown above) can be compared to the black background stone, which I’d call “average” cut, borrowed for your education from the Blue Nile tutorial on old cuts. Two stones from GOG (bottom right & upper left) and the one in the upper right borrowed from JBEG are all great OEC examples and excellent in cut. The JBEG diamond shows a few tiny girdle chips at about 1 o’clock. This light degree of wear is completely normal and not unusual for such older cut stones.



Old Mine Cuts - Antique Style Cushion Cut




In the cluster of 4 diamonds (above), there are two Old Mine cuts in the photos from JBEG (top right, bottom left) showing the typical irregularity of outline and symmetry, which is characteristic of an Old Mine cushion. You either love that feature or you don’t. The bottom right image is from Blue Nile and shows a generic and typical old mine cushion that displays the irregularities of these highly unique old stones. We realize not everyone will love the look, that’s a certainty. However, virtually no two are alike. You can find similar pairs for earrings, but they will not likely ever be identical. That and their overall appearance are what sets them apart. Again, you like them this way, or you might want greater symmetry, or the modern look of a standard modern cut diamond. We don’t want to make that decision for you, but information is key to making your best decision.

In the upper left hand corner is a typical newly cut, old mine stlye cut produced by Good Old Gold in their AVC Brand. Note the perfection of symmetry and faceting. It imitates an old mine cut with the perfection that our newer cutting technology allows. It stands out as something neither old nor exactly new. It is a different choice for that individual who wants this unique mix of appearance and perfection.



by David S. Atlas, GG(GIA) Sr Mbr(NAJA) ASG(AGA)
datlas.com






Thank you to Good Old Gold, Jewels by Erica Grace, and Blue Nile for use of the educational images.



Click here to discuss on the forum



Home >> Articles >> Screening chart for Old European Cut diamonds
Screening chart for Old European Cut diamonds
Wed, 04/20/2005 - 13:58 -David Atlas
The visual appearance of "Excellent to Very Good cut quality" old European cut diamonds have the effect of returning sufficient light to somewhat equate them to Modern Cut Class 1-2 range stones. "Normal & Acceptable cut quality" old European cut diamonds are somewhat equivalent in light return and visual appearance to Cut Class 3 modern cut stones. "Poor Cut quality" old European cut diamonds are somewhat equivalent to modern Cut Class 4 diamonds.


by David S. Atlas, GG(GIA) Sr Mbr(NAJA) ASG(AGA)
datlas.com

 

[ariel144]

This vendor on ebay usually has some nice old cut cluster rings...she is in the UK. None listed now, but you can contact her. Her website is given when you watch her videos.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/edrury2005/m.html?item=121047554099&pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_VintageFineJewellery_CA&hash=item1c2eff1833&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

Question for you:

Is the VAT tax usually included in price of the jewelry sold in Europe?

The ring you posted looks lovely to me.

Someone needs to snarf up this beauty on ebay. nice price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-50-CTW-VINTAGE-ESTATE-OLD-EUROPEAN-CUT-DIAMOND-PLATINUM-RING-/330854709356?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D4759570751027455504%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D4%26sd%3D170969444906%26

 

[amelie_violette]

Hi Ariel!! thank you for your post It looks exactly like what I needed to find!
So tonight..

thank you thank you for sharing with me!

 

[amelie_violette]

thanks as well for the ebay hints!
you are so sweet!

the second ring looks pretty to me too, but they state 'no international bidders'. Someone get this hint!!!

I will contact the other seller and see what they can offer.

There is no import tax or duty from England (I believe).
I have ordered some other items from there and never had to pay extra (but I will double check if that's true for jewelry as well).

On my side, the vendor of the ring I opened the tread with, said that she would not send the ring to an appraiser she doesn't know, no matter how reputable he or she is. Instead, (quote from the e-mail):

"Would if help if I had the ring inspected by an independant member of the association of Goldsmiths and a registered valuer? He is independant but I trust him. It is unlikely the stone will be given a clour grading other than tinted. You have seen yourself on the videos that it does seem whiter in natural light than in artificial and I don't necessarily think this has anything to do with flouresence. It is not a white stone but has some colour draw and I love it."

I have no experience in buying jewerly outside large scale retailer (e.g. Tiffany, Cartier, etc.) so I'm a bit afraid this might not be the right way to go.

I'm planning to go see the ring personally.

On a side note: let's suppose this is an M VS2 (around 2.10 carats for the center stone + anoter 1 1/4 carats in side stones. Would 13.500 dollars be a too high price? I am asking because the J color stone Yenny suggested above looks beautiful to me and is 1500 cheaper, with certificate. However, I think having the stone in its original antique setting with this carat weight might be valuable too?

 

[amelie_violette]

thank you ladies for the help so far. you have been very kind and resourceful

I'm going to ask the moderators to move the post to rocky talk, as I would like some more opinions and time could be getting tight

 

[SMC]

My idea for a halo is that I cycle around quite some, and I would be afraid of doing so with an exposed girdle. Not that I fall all the time (actually, never! ), but sports are always somewhat rough on jewerly, aren't they?

I think halos are more delicate in a way because those side stones could chip/fall out. If you want really secure, I think you should go with bezel settings. Or perhaps 6, or depending on stone size, 8 prongs?

Though ultimately, you should go for the look that you like! So if you like halos, you should get one. I just don't think that they're "safer" than other settings.

 

[yssie]

It doesn't look like an old cut at all, not the way I think of old cuts - it looks more RBesque w/ small open culet to me. You can see the mains outlined on the far side, and the LGFs definitely reach under the table but they're shorter. If the transition from transitional to MRB was linear (I learnt recently that it really isn't) I'd put it right in that in-between. Would also explain the roundedness.

Can you get a face-up pic? FWIW I like crisp and clear faceting, and I don't expect to love what I see if you do get a face-up shot - that first pic isn't tremendously tilted and there's an awful lot of "mush" under the table on the far side, and it reaches pretty far inward - I would expect to see a ring of indistinct patterning under the table around a clear and crisp center face-up, too.

 

[amelie_violette]

Hi Yssie, I really don't know what this could be, but it certainly looks different

Here another picture. Not the best one, but I hope helpful enough

 

[amelie_violette]

and another shot in natural light

 

[amelie_violette]

another one in artificial light. I'm sorry if it doesn't show the detail enough

 

[yssie]

I can't see anything in those pics, promising or otherwise - hopefully one of the old cut nuts - Dreamer, FK - will see this soon.

 

[amelie_violette]

mmh.. maybe this one is better?

thank you for trying and helping, yssie!

 

[Niel]

I think its a little suspicious they dont have a head on shot.

 

[amelie_violette]

yes, I agree that it'a a bit odd, but maybe not because the vendor was trying not to share information.

I asked specifically for a shot showing the pattern of the stone, but she instead sent videos. Maybe it would be time to share and get over the fear someone will snap this up before I can take a decision

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

Beautiful ring--I adore clusters!

Has the ring been refurbished--since the claws look to be in very good shape.

The one photo shows the centre stone to have a lot of body/color--could be a reflection of what the vendor is wearing...

cheers--Sharon

 

[amelie_violette]

Hi Sharon! thank you for posting

regarding the color: the vendor said that the ring faces up very white in certain lights, but in others looks more yellow. I asked her multiple times about the color, and she did not respond to that giving a clear grading. I then asked if I could have it appraised by a third party to know the color grading, the clarity (she says at least VS.. but it doesn't sound accurate enough to me), and the cut quality. She refused to send it to an external appraiser she does not know, and only offered to invite a graduated appraiser she knows and trust, adding that she doubt he will say anything more specific than 'slightly tinted'.

I love love love the looks of this ring, but I need to be rational and understand that 10.000 euros is a too significant sum to spend on something I know so little about.

 

[amelie_violette]

also, I agree with you that the prongs look really new! hmm..

 

[Niel]

Go take a look at old world diamonds and jewels by erica grace And see what kind of stines they have for that price

 

[Niel]

I dont like the sounds of this vendor. She wont give you head on shots wont send it to an independent appraiser and she tells yku that faces up realy white. Low color stones are nice too, but dont try to tell me its something its not. Thats a lower colored stone

 

[amelie_violette]

nielseel, you are so right on all these points.
this vendor has 100% positive feedback on ebay, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything regarding this particular transaction.

my issue with hunting on US-based vendors is that I live in Europe and import duties are really killer.
from what I have read, it is about 20% plus still some