Breastfeeding help needed from some experienced Mamas

[Puppmom]

Turtle! I hope you're hanging in there! I know we both went back to work around the same time and had what we thought was an oversupply. So much for that, right? We have tried soothing and it hasn't worked. DH has also given him a bottle (just to give me rest) and he sucks it down. However, I do think the sometimes he doesn't need to eat. For example - last night, he awoke at 11:30pm and fell asleep on the boob about 3 minutes in! Little devil!

So the LC called me back this morning. It was a really positive call. I recognized her voice from my stay in the hospital and a sense of calm came over me just hearing her voice. First, she gave me a bit of a pep talk. I guess she could tell by my message that I needed it. She was so kind and praised me for nursing for as long as I have and acknowledged that it’s a difficult balance when going back to work full time. She reminded me that we’re doing a wonderful thing for our baby by even trying, and if my milk dried up tomorrow, I have given him such a great start in life. Now, on to her advice – she suggested a few things, some of which you guys have mentioned here. I’ll put it in bullet form just for ease:

- She thinks that N not sleeping through the night is impacting my supply in two ways – first, I’m not engorged in the am, so no *insurance* milk. Second, the lack of sleep is probably not helping.

- She suggested pumping about an hour after N goes to bed (and has his last feed)– she said not to expect much output at first but I might see a few ounces after doing it for a while.

- Then she suggested adding a third pumping session at work – again, she said not to expect an increase in overall output at first, but over time, between that and the brief night session, I might be able to bridge the gap. In the meantime, there’s the stash. She suggested trying to limit using the stash to the times I’m away from him. …makes sense I guess since we’re trying to get me to produce more milk.

- And last – she said to attempt to increase my overall supply, I should take a weekend and pump immediately after each nursing session. She said not to expect much volume at all during these sessions(so no pump watching!) but this will trigger my body to make more milk.

- She also said to look for the signs that he’s ready for solids since he’ll be 6 months old in a month. She suggested avoiding them for now especially since I have the frozen BM stash but to be on the lookout for the indications that he’s ready because it’ll probably be in the next month or so.

So that’s it! I can’t explain how much talking to her helped me. I hope her suggestions work but just hearing a positive and reassuring voice on the other end of phone was invaluable. I wish everyone was so fortunate as to have the support that I have. I always try to do something productive while pumping at work. Today, I’m going to write a thank you letter!

 

[phoenixgirl]

I'm so glad the LC was helpful and encouraging. All of her advice sounds easy to follow and makes a lot of sense. Good luck!

 

[turtledazzle]

Turtle! I hope you're hanging in there! I know we both went back to work around the same time and had what we thought was an oversupply. So much for that, right? We have tried soothing and it hasn't worked. DH has also given him a bottle (just to give me rest) and he sucks it down. However, I do think the sometimes he doesn't need to eat. For example - last night, he awoke at 11:30pm and fell asleep on the boob about 3 minutes in! Little devil!

- She suggested pumping about an hour after N goes to bed (and has his last feed)– she said not to expect much output at first but I might see a few ounces after doing it for a while.

- Then she suggested adding a third pumping session at work – again, she said not to expect an increase in overall output at first, but over time, between that and the brief night session, I might be able to bridge the gap. In the meantime, there’s the stash. She suggested trying to limit using the stash to the times I’m away from him. …makes sense I guess since we’re trying to get me to produce more milk.


- She also said to look for the signs that he’s ready for solids since he’ll be 6 months old in a month. She suggested avoiding them for now especially since I have the frozen BM stash but to be on the lookout for the indications that he’s ready because it’ll probably be in the next month or so.

Hi Pupp

Yeah, I'd say that if he fell asleep after 3 minutes of boob time, he wanted some mommy time and not food. T has been known to do that to me during the day. His favorite place to nap is on my boob!

I've snipped out some parts of the quoted text above. Being back at work has gone OK, but pumping is definitely not on my list of favorite things. I try to get in 3 pumping sessions per day, but sometimes I only get in 2 if I have meetings. I have found that if I do get that third one in, I don't usually get as much as in my other two sessions (the third one may yield 5 ounces or so) but every bit counts! Right now I don't really need the milk from that third session so it goes into the freezer, but I know that things can change without notice as you're unfortunately experiencing.

I am so glad that the LC was able to give you helpful advice and, most importantly, made you feel better. You are truly doing an awesome job and N is so lucky to have you as a mom.

For a long time I was doing what your LC suggested -- pumping after T went to bed at night. I was usually able to get about 3-5 ounces from that pumping session (I was doing it about 2 hours after he went to bed). I stopped doing it a few weeks ago, but it definitely helped me build my freezer stash. I hope it works well for you, too!

Did your LC give you any specific things to look for re: indicators that he's ready for solids? We'll be going down that road soon as well.

Finally, could N be teething? Could this be one cause of his wakefulness? T has been gnawing on anything that comes near his mouth. Sophie is his new favorite thing. Also, has anything changed with regard to your diet or exercise? I had one friend who started working out more often/with more intensity, and it seemed to adversely affect her LO. I don't really know ... everything is always such a guessing game, but I thought I would throw it out there.

 

[AllieLuv83]

I used to be a pumping nut! This resulted in a raging oversupply, and an overactive let down...like shoot my milk across the room letdown. I used to pump what was left in the breasts after his 8pm feeding when he was down for the night, then again at 10pm before going to bed. When he dropped his 12am feeding I was waking up with boobs as hard as rocks at 3am and he would only nurse on one side and then go back to sleep. So I would pump the other. Over last weekend, Charlie slept from 8pm to 4am and woke up so hungry, I was soooooo engorged that he gulped down one boob in 3 minutes and the proceeded to spit it all back up, I changed him 3 times because he soaked himself. We were at my inlaws and I continued to pump to ease engorgement during the day. Before we left I ****GASP**** had to dump like 20oz of milk because we were driving 6 hours, which really turned into 11 hours. I decided to drop the MOTN pumping, even if he doesn't nurse from the other side I just go back to sleep. I still pump in the PM after he goes to bed because this allows me to continue to build my freezer stash. I feel like dropping that one pumping has made my engorged breast during the day better. I still get full but not rock hard like I was getting a week ago. I really hope that all of the suggestions help you. I really need to up my water intake thanks for reminding me!

 

[Dreamer_D]

If you do what she suggests I think it will work. The main thing I did to get my milk to come in when HUnter was born was to pump for 10 minutes after each feed. Worked a charm within a couple of days (though may take longer for you with an older child and established cupply). I also think the advice to only use the booby when you are with him and save the supply for later is a good one too, even if it is a hassel. Nursing increases your supply like nobody's business!

 

[Puppmom]

Hey, ladies. It's been a rough weekend. N got up three times last night and Friday night. It's to the point that he's eating more often from 6pm to 6am than he is 6am to 6pm. Ouch! He's is eating and seems to be emptying me then goes right back to sleep. The good thing about this (reverse cycling?) is that he's nursing a lot and that's got to be good for maintaining my supply.

Turtle, oddly enough, the LC said one of the signs a baby is ready for solids (by solids, she was specifically referring to rice cereal but I know not everyone starts with this) is waking often in the night after STTN with a specific pattern for a while although she did caveat that with babies wake in the night for other reasons - like teething. She also said he doesn't have to be sitting unassisted but shouldn't we wobbly. She mentioned we might notice some chewing action - N has started doing this thing where he just sucks on his lips as if he's eating or sucking his thumb even though nothing's there. Maybe that's it? She said, if she were to be on the safe side, she would err on the side of waiting til 6 months. In short, she didn't really give us any *solid* information on solids. I don't know what we'll do on that front - we're thinking of maybe *practicing* soon but maybe like a teaspoon a day or something. I think the last thing my supply needs right now is another shot - and I think starting solids could be a blow to my supply. Who knows really.

Allie, I used to have that overactive let down. N would get shot in the eye in the middle of night. Are you going to be able to pump when you go back to school?

Dreamer, I didn't get to pump post feed this weekend. We were just too busy. I am going to pump one hour after he goes to bed every night and have made sure most of next weekend is cleared out so I can focus on regrouping. I think we need that in general. Her advice made sense so I'm confident it'll work too!

I'll keep you guys posted. I'm sure I'm not the first or the last to face these challenges!

ETA - DH and I thought about splitting up the night feeds for sanity purposes but that would mean a bottle at one of them. So far we've decided against it because of what the LC said about using the boob as often as possible but man am I tired!

 

[Dreamer_D]

I said this before, but Hunter started nursing a lot more at night at around 4 months too, and I was a SAHM at the time and nursing in the day too, so it was not reverse cycling! There is a big change in babies at that age, and one of the things that often accompanies these mental and physical changes that occurr. It is developmentally normal, if annoying. Hunter woke 2-4 times a night between 4 and 9 months when we used CIO to put a stop to it So if it helps at all, what you LO is doing is totally normal. Annoying, but normal. Thinking of it that way might help you not feel like you need to "fix" something, but instead might either shift your thinking to this just being one of the joys of motherhood that must be endured or else thinking of it as just a passing phase. That is how I plan to think of it when my second one goes through this phase too. All too fast they are weaned and grown and those nights, as annoying as they are, will be over for ever! I miss them at times with my son, even though they made me so tired.

But as I said, I was not working outside the home at that time, so it made it easier to just roll with it perhaps.

 

[swimmer]

Pupp, regarding introducing solids, it didn't affect my supply when just introducing rice cereal and then oatmeal because of course its breastmilk with cereal, so same intake and output. Hope that helps. Even now, he is 7.5 months, e can eat a full banana and then be eager to nurse. Other than the banana I mix everything with pumped milk. My sister told me to think of food as a vehicle for bm intake and I've taken it to heart. 3 ozs per icecube tray cube of squash/peas/yam etc and 2-3 of those while at daycare for 7 hrs. Then again, I was home with him for the last week so I just nursed and enjoyed not pumping or preparing food.

I wonder about sttn and eating...every baby is so different, last night e drifted off at 8 and I knew he wasn't full so was prepared to feed him at 3 or something, but he woke up at 8am when I had already pumped 12ozs. My supply had dipped because of a virus and blocked duct; then I found pumping before feeding him was really effective, babies suck so much more effectively than the pump! then I just toss that foremilk and he chunked up on the hindmilk. Just a thought, my LC is all about pumping a bit first esp with babies having any kind of stomach issues. And with oversupply it helped so much when i had to pump to relieve pain and it was easier for him to latch after a bit of a pump than when my boobs were rocks.

Yes, that mouth sucking does sound like a sign of interest! Good luck!

 

[Pandora II]

The best indication that a baby is ready for solids is when the tongue thrust disappears.

 

[cara]

What's the tongue thrust? S has started gagging when you try to give him something to suck on like a pacifier, but will happily chew on stuff put more in the teeth growing regions.Just curious at this point as he is a bitearly for solids.

 

[Pandora II]

What's the tongue thrust? S has started gagging when you try to give him something to suck on like a pacifier, but will happily chew on stuff put more in the teeth growing regions.Just curious at this point as he is a bitearly for solids.

When you put something in the baby's mouth their tongue will automatically push it out. Like sitting, it's a safety mechanism to prevent things being consumed too soon or causing choking. It tends to disappear around 6 months.

Good article here: http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/solids/solids-when.html

Breast-milk changes as the baby grows and so provides all the nutrients and calories that they need without needing an increase in quantity.

I did Baby Led Weaning with Daisy where you go straight to finger-foods and whatever you are eating. We never did purees or baby-food of any sort. She was a great eater until 13/14 months when she decided she couldn't really be bothered anymore! She has always loved spicy food like Indian and Thai food (curry is the one food she has always eaten) and it makes it so much easier not having to make separate meals - she just has a few bits off our plates - and you don't have to take baby food out with you or to people's houses. She never once choked - she did gag a bit at the beginning when she was learning to move food around in her mouth, but left alone she sorted it out very fast (bit scary the first couple of times).

I think Blen also did BLW?

 

[Dreamer_D]

We introduced mashed banana at 6 months. There were no signs he was ready beyond being able to sit up unaided and being the right age. And he gobbled it up, which was a pretty good sign. Packaged baby cereal is pretty gross, in my opinion. He did not eat much of it. I found that grinding whole oats in a grinder or blender worked and tasted better. Same can be done with rice. Just add water and cook as usual.

 

[Puppmom]

I'm a walking zombie today so pardon any typing errors...I'll spare you all the details since I originally started this thread about pumping/nursing. If you want to hear me whine, you can always stop over to the Newborn thread!

Dreamer, I agree with you. I don't think there's anything *wrong* that's causing N to wake at night. It's just a problem for us in relation to my pumping schedule. Hopefully, with a little creativity and some hard work, we can get my pumping output to a place that's comfortable again. I think I'll have to get used to not having so much *insurance* milk. Oh, and I agree - rice cereal looks and smells disgusting!

Pandora, I never heard of BLW. It sounds interesting to me so I'll definitely read more. It definitely goes against all those things that mom taught us regarding feeding your baby. Then again, when DD was born 16 years ago, my mom told me formula was BETTER than breastmilk!

Swimmer, gosh, it feels like I'd have to birth and breastfeed many more children before knowing everything. Even 5 months in, I have so much to learn. I really thought that a baby on solids would consume less breastmilk - which is why I thought it would impact my supply. How much do you pump before feeding E? I have to get it out of my head that I'm going to *run out* of milk if I pump too close to feeding N.

All of this is making me realize that I have to figure out a way to just roll with the punches. It goes against my nature though so I have a lot of work to do. I'm admittedly very uptight about things and am a worrier but I'm only hurting myself by stressing out so much. I want to enjoy N's babyhood so it'll be worth the effort.

Thanks again ladies for all of your help. I really am taking in every bit of advice offered here and really appreciate how thoughtful you all are.

 

[Pandora II]

There's a good book on BLW by Gill Rapley. There's also a website and forum (www.babyledweaning.com). The book has very interesting information on the mechanics of eating and on infant nutrition in general so I would recommend reading it even if you don't plan to so BLW.

One of the weird things is that it is so common to start babies on cereals which are one of the hardest foods for them to digest as they lack the appropriate enzymes and so basically get zero nutritional value from them.

My Health Visitor was very keen on BLW which suprised me a bit but it is becoming more and more popular over here. I chose to do it as it's how baby animals learn to eat - gradually start nibbling a bit of hay or grass, or zebra... and also because I think most baby food looks and tastes pretty gross and so why would my kid want to eat it?

 

[Puppmom]

just wanted to drop in and share something. I bought soft shields for my pump since they supposedly have a massaging effect while pumping. I don't know if it's coincidence but I pumped 15.5oz in two sessions as opposed to the 10 or 12 I've been pumping recently.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Swimmer, gosh, it feels like I'd have to birth and breastfeed many more children before knowing everything. Even 5 months in, I have so much to learn. I really thought that a baby on solids would consume less breastmilk - which is why I thought it would impact my supply. How much do you pump before feeding E? I have to get it out of my head that I'm going to *run out* of milk if I pump too close to feeding N.
.

The recommendation is to feed baby in between nursing sessions, so that he/she still gets all the milk he wants and has room for it. Up intil 12 months, food is just for fun and not really contributing much to calories. So for us, we would feed hunter at first only 1x per day in between the midmorning and midafternoon feeds, usually before nap. Then after a month or two we upped it to 2x per day, at that time between the morning/midmorning and again between the afternoon/night feeds. When he was eating 3x per day by about 10 months, again it would be in between nursing sessions. If the food and nursing were going to be close together, we nursed first *then* fed solids.

 

[swimmer]

Oh Pupp! I hope I don't come across as a know it all! I just know this one baby and am super confident that every baby is pretty much their own dude. Having said that, it seems that they keep eating just about the same (nursing mother's companion) when they start solids because their appetites continue to grow as they do. I introduced foods at 6+ mos as he still refuses to take a bottle so was eager for him to eat something, anything, while at daycare. Just as an example of early solid eating schedule: today he woke up, bf'd at 5:30, ate a banana at 9, 3.5ozs plus squash at 11, 3.5ozs plus zucchini at 3, bf'd at 4 like a crazed weasel, again at 6ish and now 8:30 again for a topping off before sleep till hopefully 5:30am. dude is in the 50% for weight and 90% for height, possibly has his father's tapeworm like metabolism, but his schedule seems pretty standard for the book and among my momma friends who feed some and still nurse a ton.

ETA and I pumped about 10ozs at work but there was so much going on I only had a few minutes to get it in. And great news about your output with the soft flange!

 

[Puppmom]

You don’t come off as a know-it-all! I appreciate your help. I definitely have to get a copy of the nursing companion. I was naïve in thinking that once we got through those first few weeks and established a good latch, etc. that it would be smooth sailing. Now that my goal is to make it to 1 year, things are more complicated so I have to learn more.

 

[turtledazzle]

Hi Pupp -- that's great regarding the soft flanges. I saw those when searching for pump parts online and was curious. I hope they continue to help! I also hope you're able to get some rest soon!

Thanks to everyone about the info on solids!

 

[Puppmom]

Pumped 10oz this am after feeding N 3 hours before. Increased output could be:

- normal variation in supply
- soft shields on pump
- frequent overnight feeds have told the girls they need to produce more

Who knows why but I'll take it!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Have you tried massaging the breast while pumping Pupp? Jack Newman talks about it on his site.

 

[Puppmom]

Have you tried massaging the breast while pumping Pupp? Jack Newman talks about it on his site.

I have - I didn't know there was an actual method but it just seemed natural to give them a *squeeze* when the milk stopped flowing. After a while, I learned if I pressed in certain places, the milk flow would pick up again. I notice that I get maybe another .5oz or so from each breast doing this after flow stops.

 

[swimmer]

Oh Pupp, think how much easier it is now than in the beginning -and eventually I bet you will wonder how you will ever wean. The bfm's companion is like my bible. Seriously I have no idea how I'd have made it without it or the free drop in lc visits near me. PS is great, but people will share about their 2mth old's experience or whatever that isn't quite right and the book just has all the research. The anniversary edition in particular is fantastic. I give it, a miracle blanket, and a tummy time mirror as shower presents.

oh and does hot showering help supply for you?

 

[turtledazzle]

Pumped 10oz this am after feeding N 3 hours before. Increased output could be:

- normal variation in supply
- soft shields on pump
- frequent overnight feeds have told the girls they need to produce more

Who knows why but I'll take it!

That's great! I'm really curious about these soft shields ... hmmm.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Pupp, you may want to check out this video on hand expressing: http://newborns.stanford.edu/Breastfeeding/HandExpression.html

I haven't weighed in on this thread because I don't nurse, but I do exclusively pump as my DS can't latch, and have been doing so for almost 9 months now. So, I'm happy to share tips on pumping if needed, though it looks like there are plenty of experts here already! I actually don't need to hand express because my body responds really well to the pump, but I know other exclusive pumpers have found that video to be really helpful.

 

[icekid]

I am just starting to pump more (baby is a month old) and wanted to thank you ladies for sharing all of your invaluable knowledge.

Does it take a while for your body to realize that, yes I should let down milk in response to this strange device? It seems I have to do a lot of convincing just to get a little milk. So far I am getting half to maybe one ounce between both breasts, but this is after feeding the baby. From what I have read, this sounds about normal. Hopefully when pumping takes the place of a feeding there will be a lot more milk!

Are there any good pumping resources out there? Kellymom has been really helpful for me, but they do not seem to focus much on pumping.

 

[Puppmom]

Swimmer, I don't know if the hot shower would work but I can tell you that I used to leak during my morning shower but I don't anymore. I guess my body is just used to it?

Logan, thank's for that link. I'll check it out. My body seems to respond fairly well to the pump so far. How many times do you have to pump throughout the day to get all you need?

Icekid, when I pumped the first few times, I got the same result. Even now, if I pump right after feeding, I don't get much. Also, I notice if I pump after feeding, let down takes a while and sometimes I don't feel it. If I pump in place of feeding, I usually get anywhere from 5-10oz total (although 10oz is not often). If N sleeps through the night and I pump in the morning instead of feeding, I get a lot more - maybe 14-16oz.

I forgot to tell you guys that we cut N back to 6oz from the bottle and he didn't even notice. He doesn't fuss after and he still goes the same amount of time between feedings. We tried 5 oz - that he did notice and wasn't a happy camper! So, 6oz it is! It doesn't seem unreasonable since he eats every 4 hours on average and will often go 4.5-5 hours between his morning feed and the next one.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Icekid, I look at the Exclusive Pumpers board on BabyCenter- they have people who've been exclusively pumping for 2 or more years! Also, the PumpMom Yahoo group is good, though less traffic than the BC site and you have to ask to join.

Pupp, when I first started, I pumped between 8-12 times a day, in order to mimic the # of times a newborn would nurse and to establish my supply. Somewhere along the last 9 months, I slowly dropped sessions to get to 3 pumps today (am in the process of weaning). My 3 pumps yield about 33 oz, which is more then my son is drinking now. I made the most at 4 pumps, which was about 36 oz, though I did get over 40 some days. I'm fortunate that I'm not an overproducer, but have been able to meet all my son's needs, as well as have stockpiled 1600 oz frozen for when I'm done with the pump.

 

[Kunzite]

Logan - So happy to see another EP! I just asked in the NB thread but this thread may be more appropriate.... How protective are you of your pumping schedule? The LC at our hospital made it seem very dire that I stick to my set schedule and only move it very gradually if I needed to change it (like 5 minutes at a time). Obviously when I go back to work that might not be realistic as I might have meetings to work around, etc. I'm totally paranoid to get mastitis again so I'm trying to figure this all out!!

 

[jcrow]

couple of questions - pup, what soft shields did you get? also, when you say sttn, what time does your little one go down and wake up?

pandora - regarding blw, at what age did you start that?