Breeding my baby??

[scarleta]

Lorelai: the cat of yours ( avatar) makes me late for everything, can''t get enough of him...so cute..

 

[MsP]

Just something to think about... A family friend of ours had a beautiful rhodesian ridgeback from show lines and with oversight from a more experienced breeder, they decided to breed their dog. What resulted was a tragic mess with their family pet dead and huge vet bills. There were complications with the pregnancy and their dog(the mother) ended up dying while at the emergency vet one night. Some of the puppies were taken out by c-section and were far enough along that they survived but only after staying the the hospital for a week or so. I don''t know the exact amounts of their bills but my friends have said the whole catastrophe cost them thousands of dollars and that is after they sold the puppies for 8-900 each... and they lost their much loved family pet.

 

[JoangA]

I would never breed dogs unless I was willing to be responsible for them for the rest of their lives. That means I''d take them back, no questions asked if the new owners didn''t want them anymore. So both of my dogs are fixed, not breeding.

I would be concerned about his behavior changing after he was breed. He''d naturally want to do it again! Don''t we all..

 

[movie zombie]

there are implants for dogs that have been neutered....

and i quote: Neuticles, testicular implantation for pets, its like nothing every changed. toll free: 888.638.8425 or www.neuticles.com



movie zombie

 

[Mandarine]

Date: 2/8/2007 2:20:20 PM
Author: movie zombie
there are implants for dogs that have been neutered....

and i quote: Neuticles, testicular implantation for pets, its like nothing every changed. toll free: 888.638.8425 or www.neuticles.com



movie zombie

haha...I know and I think that is totally crazy!....but the thing is, something did change!!!. It''s most definitely a cultural thing, to me (and I''m not saying other are wrong or that I''m right, just my opinion) it''s inhumane and cruel to do something to your pet so he is more calm, etc....what my vet said to me once taht it was a good diea because "that way he can concentrate on just being a pet for you since he doesn''t have other ''things'' on his mind"...hmmmm...it just sounds so selfish and cruel to ME.

If for health reasons this was necessary, I wouldn''t hesitate to do it. Yes, if he gets neutered then he wouldn''t have a chance to get cancer....but I would also avoid the chance of me getting cancer if I cut off some body parts....am I doing that?...nope, I prefer to monitor my health, just like I monitor his health and make sure he has a healthy lifestyle (excellent quality food, exercise, etc). Again, I know we will all differ and I am in the minority here, but it is how I feel. He''s staying natural and keeping his jingle bells!

JoangA, your post made me laugh ("I would be concerned about his behavior changing after he was breed. He''d naturally want to do it again! Don''t we all.. ")...hehe.

MissPrudential, thank you for your post! that is such a horrible story but I''m so glad you shared, I''m so sorry for your friend''s loss.

M~

 

[Mara]

not to get into a huge debate mandarine, but how is it ''cruel'' to alter the dog so that possibly they DO have a better life without having to ''worry'' about that stuff. surely it''s hard for anyone to know what the dog REALLY feels in terms of is it uncomfortable to want to always be in that state but not be able to do anything...i just figure that i made portia''s ''pet life'' (because let''s face it they are our pets...that is their job right?) easier by spaying her. but i can understand it being a cultural thing too. i just don''t understand how it''s necessarily cruel to want to make your pet''s life better and EASIER and seemingly more relaxed for them so that they don''t always have those urges, feelings, whatever. though that is assuming they don''t if they get spayed/neutered. but think about it like a guy or woman being aroused (lol tmi?)...if you were a dog running around like that for 2 months or however long they go in and out of stages....i''d be thinking man that has GOTTA be a drag?! hahaha.

 

[Mandarine]

Date: 2/8/2007 3:09:23 PM
Author: Mara
not to get into a huge debate mandarine, but how is it ''cruel'' to alter the dog so that possibly they DO have a better life without having to ''worry'' about that stuff. surely it''s hard for anyone to know what the dog REALLY feels in terms of is it uncomfortable to want to always be in that state but not be able to do anything...i just figure that i made portia''s ''pet life'' (because let''s face it they are our pets...that is their job right?) easier by spaying her. but i can understand it being a cultural thing too. i just don''t understand how it''s necessarily cruel to want to make your pet''s life better and EASIER and seemingly more relaxed for them so that they don''t always have those urges, feelings, whatever. though that is assuming they don''t if they get spayed/neutered. but think about it like a guy or woman being aroused (lol tmi?)...if you were a dog running around like that for 2 months or however long they go in and out of stages....i''d be thinking man that has GOTTA be a drag?! hahaha.

hahaha Mara....

well, for me, I don''t know that his life is better, is not like he can speak to me, right?.....altering how he came, is just wrong to ME....I know is a personal feeling so I''m not saying anybody is cruel because obviously they made that decision feeling that was the best thing for their pets. I make this decision feeling this is the best thing for him. I once rescued a dog and we had to get him neutered because you have to when you adopt. I can''t even tell you how bad I felt. Yes, he was still an awesome and loving dog...but I don''t know what he would have been like if he was natural, and I felt so guilty for that. My dog is not agressive (unless you''re a lizzard, squirrel or bird), he is VERY calm as is (not a big barker, unless there is reason to bark, not a whiner, etc) and he has never tried to hump a thing is his life...and I mean nothing at all, ever!...sorry if TMI, but I think one of the misconceptions is that dogs that are not neutered are agressive, crazy, and humping whatever is on their way. He is three years old, and I think he proves the point that intact dogs act a certain way.

So anyway...I''m not saying you or anyone else was "cruel"...I''m saying if I did it, I would feel I did something cruel. Can I explain why I feel that way?....yes, it''s how I was brought up and what I believe in...just like most people in the US feel it''s cruel or not right to not have them neutered/spayed, it''s just part of the culture.

M~

 

[psaddict]

If what your FMIL is looking for is a dog who is just as friendly/affectionate as yours, it seems to me she''d be more likely to get what she wants by spending time with and playing with some dogs that are already out there looking for homes, and finding one that has a similar personality to yours. There are millions of dogs out there who I''m sure are just as friendly, who already badly need homes.

If you breed, you''re just mixing your dogs genes with some other dog you don''t know that well. You also don''t know all the history of your dog or this other strange dog. Who knows what kind of genetic problems or behavior problems could crop up in the puppies. It won''t be a clone of just your dog...

 

[fire&ice]

There are some health benefits to keeping a male dog intact. Neutering a male is not going to make the dog "unagressive". On the flip side, an intact dogs can face health problems that a neutered male may not. The main problem with not neutering a male dog comes with the the owner''s ability to allow the dog to roam and sow their seeds where ever they want.

That said, no respectable breeder with a show bitch who has been genetically tested and bred for good health is going to want a non show, non champion pet that hasn''t been genetically tested, etc. breed with their bitch. It will be a back yard breeder who will agree to breed their bitch. Aside from some people''s idea of sport, the main reason to get your dog''s championship is to perpetuate the "standard" of the breed - the correct size, formation, health, temperment, gate, coat, etc. It is why people seek out "breeds". It is why responsible breeders get their dog''s championship. My point, you are setting yourself up to have your dog particpate in back yard breeding with little control. Can great pets come from this - perhaps - but more so than not it is a recipe for disaster - as Missprudential - even with supervision.

And, yes it is quite possible that your pet could become more interested in female dogs than being your pet from now on.

 

[moremoremore]

Tee hee....You've all spared my fingers! Wonderful posts! I'm also blown away when people chose not to fix their pets. They live happier, healthier lives....and the euthanasia rates are just horrifying to me.... (so I'm actally blown away when people don't go to shelters to adopt tee hee but that's another topic for another day

)... but I guess I do see why breed purity should/ be preserved)....

It's very very hard not for me to judge in this area...I really don't want to but just can't help it....

I wish fixing was mandatory in the US too....

 

[psaddict]

Date: 2/8/2007 4:22:51 PM
Author: fire&ice
There are some health benefits to keeping a male dog intact. Neutering a male is not going to make the dog ''unagressive''. On the flip side, an intact dogs can face health problems that a neutered male may not. The main problem with not neutering a male dog comes with the the owner''s ability to allow the dog to roam and sow their seeds where ever they want.

That said, no respectable breeder with a show bitch who has been genetically tested and bred for good health is going to want a non show, non champion pet that hasn''t been genetically tested, etc. breed with their bitch. It will be a back yard breeder who will agree to breed their bitch. Aside from some people''s idea of sport, the main reason to get your dog''s championship is to perpetuate the ''standard'' of the breed - the correct size, formation, health, temperment, gate, coat, etc. It is why people seek out ''breeds''. It is why responsible breeders get their dog''s championship. My point, you are setting yourself up to have your dog particpate in back yard breeding with little control. Can great pets come from this - perhaps - but more so than not it is a recipe for disaster - as Missprudential - even with supervision.

And, yes it is quite possible that your pet could become more interested in female dogs than being your pet from now on.

This is very interesting, I didn''t even think of that. To put a dog through pregnancy requires a lot of time, care, and there''s a risk of health problems or death if it''s a complicated pregnancy. Why would someone with a great quality female want to breed it with just any person''s purebred pet.

 

[Cind11]

MY DH and I (especially DH) like Siamese and so we do end up buying our cats. I would be happy with a shelter cat but my DH just loves the Siamese personality. The breeders we choose are reputable and involved in showing and breeding. However, I know this has been said before, but I just don''t think people should breed animals when they don''t know what they''re doing. They are not breeding to improve bloodlines or for any valid reason that I can think of. And even when someone says that they find all the puppies (or kitens) good homes I feel like THOSE puppies prevented other puppies from getting homes. It''s just too much of a never ending cycle.

I worked for a Vet at one time and intact males do have a tendency to try to run away more. I think neuterd and spayed animals make better (and healthier) pets.

 

[Mandarine]

Everyone has their own opinions and I do respect them...I just really don''t want to get into this neutering vs not argument because it is cultural, I can see that it''s completely cultural why I don''t think it''s ok and you guys don''t. Maybe you guys can''t see it.

I am NOT looking for a girl to breed my dog. I thought about the option and started doing research. I''ve gotten some great advice from some of you here and that''s the kind of thing I''m really looking for (such as what Fire&ice brought up).

If you guys want to start a debate on neutering vs not, I don''t have a problem with that....I just don''t want to be a part of it because I feel I need to keep defending how I feel about it and is just instilled in me. My dog is as healthy as your dog and he doesn''t have any bad habits. He is just as happy (or maybe more? or maybe yours is happier?)...we don''t know that since again, they can''s speak. I don''t take an advil because I think I might get a headache later on, I''m not going to alter him to prevent something and then tell myself he''s happier now. It''s just not me and I wouldn''t feel right about it....and I don''t want to keep trying to explain why I feel this way...and you won''t change the way I feel. Just like I will always have my cafe con leche in the morning a certain way, or the way I can''t keep my feet from moving when I hear merengue or salsa. It''s how I grew up and what I''ve always seen as being right for the animals.

So with that said I do encourage you all to have this great debate about neutering. Although it seems a little pointless since I''m the only one on the other side of the debate and I don''t want to have it...haha

I''m really not taking any comments personally because I know I am a good and responsible ''mom'' to my baby

ok, carry on!

M~

 

[diamondsrock]

I think this debate has gone in a direction which isn''t what Mandarine expected!

Mandarine, I would like to educate myself about different cultures. It is obvious from this thread that spaying/neutering is preferred in the U.S. for several reasons which have been mentioned.

Would you mind if I ask what culture or background you are from which opposes this practice? I''m just curious. Sometimes we only know of our own cultural practies and I am really curious how other countries view different topics. Is it rarely done in your country? Or is it recommended by vets but the people in that culture prefer not to do it? I really find this interesting.

 

[Mandarine]

Diamondsrock,

Thanks

I'm Venezuelan but my entire family is actually from Spain. I'm not too sure what they do in Spain, but I think it's also not something people "do". I can speak for my experience having had dogs in Venezuela.

My vet never ever recommended it, unless there was a current health reason as to why you should have your dog spayed or neutered. So people don't it because they don't want to and also because of what their vets tell them. When I moved to the US I had a really hard time understanding why everyone was snipping left and right! haha. It's just not anything I even heard of back home!. After having lived here for 12 years and talked to a lot of different people (including vets) regarding this issue, I do understand them...and do respect them, as I have said before, but still in my mind I would just be changing "him". Is not how he came into this world and if it was up to me, more education should be placed around keeping your dog healthy by providing the best quality food and appropriate amount of exercise and most importantly, educating owners to be responsible so that they're not letting their dogs roam around!...because obviosuly, the main problem would be unwanted pregnancies which is the reason why we have the problem we do with puppies that need homes.

Sometimes when I talk to friends that have spayed or neutered their dogs, they actually feel guilty but is what the vet told them would make their vet happy and healthy!. Having an intact dog is not for everyone because you do have to be more cautious and have regular check-ups, etc....but in my mind to get him neutered is a way of making it easier for *me*, not for him.

People in Venezuela don't do it and is not to then go and breed them....just like that's not the reason why I decided to not do it. I decided not to do it and now I decided to do RESEARCH on whether breeding him would be a good or bad idea, etc. Me doing that type of research now has nothing to do on why I didn't get him neutered when he was 6 months old. And again, is just an idea that popped into my head and I'm doing research on it. Maybe because of what happenned to me with that other dog and I realize I still love dogs regardless....and I'm not afraid of them! (which I was afraid I would be). So maybe doing this type of research and talking about puppies, etc...makes me happy right now.

So what can I say. I'm not saying I'm right, but I recognize it is a cultural thing and that's why I know I won't change your minds, just like you won't change mine

. Also, I can see and admire how much you all love your dogs and are great "parents" to them....so good for you! you'll be surprised how many people get a dog and three weeks later when the excitement wears off they just neglect them. Why?...because they were just impulsive and didn't really think through all that comes with having a dog.

M~ (and my little black furry monster!

)

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/8/2007 9:37:15 PM
Author: psaddict

Date: 2/8/2007 4:22:51 PM
Author: fire&ice
There are some health benefits to keeping a male dog intact. Neutering a male is not going to make the dog 'unagressive'. On the flip side, an intact dogs can face health problems that a neutered male may not. The main problem with not neutering a male dog comes with the the owner's ability to allow the dog to roam and sow their seeds where ever they want.

That said, no respectable breeder with a show bitch who has been genetically tested and bred for good health is going to want a non show, non champion pet that hasn't been genetically tested, etc. breed with their bitch. It will be a back yard breeder who will agree to breed their bitch. Aside from some people's idea of sport, the main reason to get your dog's championship is to perpetuate the 'standard' of the breed - the correct size, formation, health, temperment, gate, coat, etc. It is why people seek out 'breeds'. It is why responsible breeders get their dog's championship. My point, you are setting yourself up to have your dog particpate in back yard breeding with little control. Can great pets come from this - perhaps - but more so than not it is a recipe for disaster - as Missprudential - even with supervision.

And, yes it is quite possible that your pet could become more interested in female dogs than being your pet from now on.

This is very interesting, I didn't even think of that. To put a dog through pregnancy requires a lot of time, care, and there's a risk of health problems or death if it's a complicated pregnancy. Why would someone with a great quality female want to breed it with just any person's purebred pet.

F&I brings up more good points. For example, reputable breeders will choose their breeding pair very carefully as many pedigrees can suffer from things like hip dysplasia, faces which are too flat in some bulldog, pug breeds etc, leading to respiratory problems, dogs such as chihuahuas and pekes with badly shaped eye sockets which can cause eye problems, retinal problems in collies etc etc. A reputable breeder will be well aware of the health problems which are often inherited which many breeds can suffer, and do their utmost to prevent their dogs from passing these things on. Obviously a lot of skill and knowledge is needed to do this, also money for the various tests and expertise needed.

 

[jaz464]

Date: 2/9/2007 8:27:37 AM
Author: Mandarine
I don't take an advil because I think I might get a headache later on, I'm not going to alter him to prevent something and then tell myself he's happier now.

This is such an odd argument to me. We do preventative things all the time. We eat better and excercise so we can live longer, we put on sunscreen to prevent skin cancer, our dogs are vaccinated to prevent them from getting rabies, bordatella, etc. Most people take part in preventative measures all of the time. We don't know if we will get skin cancer but when we are in the sun or at the beach we put on SPF to try to lesson the chances.

Anyway, if you are worried about your dog changing after breeding him, why do it? Would it be worth it to you? Some dogs change and some do not. So you have to be prepared for both possibilities.

 

[psaddict]

I don''t think vets recommend neutering just so that your dog will be happier and healthier. They recommend it because there are already so many stray animals out there and animals in shelters, and a good number of them are a result of people not getting their pets spayed or neutered. My mom volunteers at an animal shelter. If puppies or kittens are brought into a shelter and they are so small that they need constant attention, they are usually immediately put to sleep. Dogs and cats of all ages are also put to sleep after spending a month or more in a cramped and dirty cage, if they are not adopted.

Everyone thinks they are a good pet owner, and yet pets everywhere still escape sometimes and mate with a stray or someone else''s pet. Since we''ve bred pets to be cute, affectionate, playful, etc, they don''t know how to survive in the wild, and many die from starvation or being killed by a wild animal if they don''t get taken to a shelter. It''s a vicious cycle. So no, getting a dog neutered is not just for the happiness of your pet.

 

[movie zombie]

unfortunately, i''ve been at a crematorium when those discarded dogs that have been put down are there and ready for final disposal.....they are piled upon each other and i''ll not go any further with the description.......its disturbing to say the least and gives one great pause about ever deliberately breeding to bring more into the world. in fact, it gives me great pause to ever think of buying a dog period. buying only encourages breeders and while there are some that are ethical, there are many that are not.


movie zombie

 

[sumbride]

My mom has an intact male dachsund. He has a constant need to mark his territory and an unfortunate habit of humping everything. This means that most of his life is spent in a little pen in the dining room. He goes on walks but he isn''t allowed to run around in the backyard. He isn''t allowed to run through the house because he will pee on everything. Is he happier because he''s intact? Personally, I doubt it. Of course we have no real way of knowing. And I know that his behavior could have been trained out of him earlier, but it would have been easier had he been neutered when he was a puppy. My mom had intended to breed him, since he is registered and has papers, and she has experience as a professional breeder of Samoyeds, but that was a lifetime ago and she has since decided she doesn''t want to go through it. She''s planning to neuter him this year. We "finally talked some sense into her", she says.

Many things can be argued with the "cultural differences" concept, but there are a lot of "cultural" things that are still wrong. I know you say we''ll never change your mind, but writing it off as a cultural difference is a bit of a cop out. You either see the science behind it or you don''t. Many tragic world events occurred because of cultural differences. I''m not about to lump "pet overpopulation" in there with them, but my mind does wander that direction.

Shelters here give pets a week if they''re completely healthy and friendly, and they have room. Otherwise they are immediately destroyed. Puppy season should be rolling around soon.

 

[Mandarine]

Date: 2/9/2007 2:51:55 PM
Author: sumbride
My mom has an intact male dachsund. He has a constant need to mark his territory and an unfortunate habit of humping everything. This means that most of his life is spent in a little pen in the dining room. He goes on walks but he isn't allowed to run around in the backyard. He isn't allowed to run through the house because he will pee on everything. Is he happier because he's intact? Personally, I doubt it. Of course we have no real way of knowing. And I know that his behavior could have been trained out of him earlier, but it would have been easier had he been neutered when he was a puppy. My mom had intended to breed him, since he is registered and has papers, and she has experience as a professional breeder of Samoyeds, but that was a lifetime ago and she has since decided she doesn't want to go through it. She's planning to neuter him this year. We 'finally talked some sense into her', she says.

Many things can be argued with the 'cultural differences' concept, but there are a lot of 'cultural' things that are still wrong. I know you say we'll never change your mind, but writing it off as a cultural difference is a bit of a cop out. You either see the science behind it or you don't. Many tragic world events occurred because of cultural differences. I'm not about to lump 'pet overpopulation' in there with them, but my mind does wander that direction.

Shelters here give pets a week if they're completely healthy and friendly, and they have room. Otherwise they are immediately destroyed. Puppy season should be rolling around soon.

It would have been easier, yep. It would be easier to get him neutered so you don't actually have to spend the time training acceptable vs non-acceptable behaviors.

My dog doesn't mark terriroty (only outside), took two weeks to potty train and never ever ever has humped anything. I have seen plenty of neutered and spayed dogs that hump even their toys!...pretty funny, but very annoying.

I'm really not going to get into a cultural debate because I would obviously be in the minority here...and you are absolutely right, many tragic world events occurred because of cultural differences. But you can't say that everytime there was a difference the same party has always been right (or right in *your* mind)....hence the point, it's a cultural difference.

I don't see the science behind it, just like it wouldn't make sense to me to get rid of one of my body parts to prevent getting cancer. Would it prevent it? yes it would...would I do it? heck no.

Once again, I wish so many people felt this way about adopting babies instead of having them...aren't there millions and millions of babies out there that need homes?. So should we go and castrate poeple in third world countries like they're animals or should the wrold actually realize that education is the key?. Two extremes, but in my mind, same thing. It's easier to have them neutered, easier because then they can "concentrate on being good pets to *you* and you don't have to spend time training to let them know what's acceptable and what isn't and you don't have to worry about them roaming around". Those arguments aren't science...so no, I don't get it.

M~

 

[Mara]

lol mandarine well do you really want to get into a debate on whether or not people should be 'allowed' to have kids... ??

 

[Mandarine]

no I don''t......I''m trying to make a point that in my mind (again, MY opinion...how I feel) is a matter of education and is not something I think is right to use as a method of prevention....simply because I don''t think it''s humane to do that to a dog (or human being for that matter!..hehe). Again this is how I feel and the reason why I don''t do it. I don''t judge the people that actually do it, because I know for them, they believe that IS what is right.

To say that I don''t see the "science" behind it or I''m using my culture as a "cop out"...is just completely absurd.

M~

 

[cara]

My aunt and uncle had this "we don''t want to alter our little darling" attitude - we''ll just keep a close eye on him and he''s a boy so we don''t have to worry about puppies. Of course, he escaped, dug under/jumped a fence into a backyard and mated with some breeder''s bitch. How do we know this? Well, they got stuck in the act. It happens. Then my aunt and uncle were actually LIABLE for the vet bill for the puppies, the time the bitch was pregnant with mutts, etc. All cause they didn''t want the unnatural "fix". Of course they also prefer the natural method of human birth control, and you can guess the outcome. Eventually they had my aunt''s tubes tied, the dog fixed, etc.

Anyway. I guess my main point is this idea of "natural". Dogs are not "natural" in terms of what many people think - pure creatures made by god or evolution, unadulterated by humans. They have been domesticated for thousands of years and their bloodlines have been manipulated by people for thousands of years. In some ways you could say that dogs exist in their current form because they are desired by people in that form - some breeds can''t even really breed on their own and require a bit of human help.

The American attitude is not based, I think, on the idea that the animal is "happier" fixed - but that letting "nature take its course" makes for too many babies. We don''t have cat and dog predators so we either have to kill these babies or let them starve and *this* is more offensive to the American morality aesthetic than sterilizing pets. This attitude clearly does not transfer over nicely to human reproduction in America, but that''s another topic.

I have no idea if the fixed dog is happier or whatnot, but I''ve seen perfectly happy three-legged dogs running around so clearly they have the ability to adapt mentally pretty well to certain situations. In the case of horses, it is pretty clear that if you were to keep a stallion around mares in heat and NOT let them breed this would be pretty tormenting to the stallion. A gelding might not exactly be happy to be kept from the mare, but generally not at the stallion level of obsession and biological drive.

As for the cultural difference, what if instead of ovary/testes removal it was just tubes tied? So the sterilization is slightly less effective but the same hormones are produced, so no potential change in temperment? Would this still be objectionable? Is it the sterilization in general or the fact that is does affect the chemical makeup of the dog as it is typically done with removal of entire organs not just obstructing tubes as it is done in humans?

 

[psaddict]

It doesn''t make any sense to compare this to children starving in third world countries. There''s not much you personally can do to help, other than donating money to charities that help orphans. When it comes to cutting down on the suffering & agony of stray dogs and puppies who live a life of misery, you have it in your power to do something major to help. and that''s to neuter your pets and encourage others to do so as well. It seems strange to say "well since there are human babies out there who are suffering, why should I care to do anything to cut down on the suffering of stray dogs and cats?"

 

[psaddict]

Date: 2/9/2007 3:38:57 PM
Author: cara
My aunt and uncle had this ''we don''t want to alter our little darling'' attitude - we''ll just keep a close eye on him and he''s a boy so we don''t have to worry about puppies. Of course, he escaped, dug under/jumped a fence into a backyard and mated with some breeder''s bitch. How do we know this? Well, they got stuck in the act. It happens. Then my aunt and uncle were actually LIABLE for the vet bill for the puppies, the time the bitch was pregnant with mutts, etc. All cause they didn''t want the unnatural ''fix''. Of course they also prefer the natural method of human birth control, and you can guess the outcome. Eventually they had my aunt''s tubes tied, the dog fixed, etc.

Anyway. I guess my main point is this idea of ''natural''. Dogs are not ''natural'' in terms of what many people think - pure creatures made by god or evolution, unadulterated by humans. They have been domesticated for thousands of years and their bloodlines have been manipulated by people for thousands of years. In some ways you could say that dogs exist in their current form because they are desired by people in that form - some breeds can''t even really breed on their own and require a bit of human help.

The American attitude is not based, I think, on the idea that the animal is ''happier'' fixed - but that letting ''nature take its course'' makes for too many babies. We don''t have cat and dog predators so we either have to kill these babies or let them starve and *this* is more offensive to the American morality aesthetic than sterilizing pets. This attitude clearly does not transfer over nicely to human reproduction in America, but that''s another topic.

I have no idea if the fixed dog is happier or whatnot, but I''ve seen perfectly happy three-legged dogs running around so clearly they have the ability to adapt mentally pretty well to certain situations. In the case of horses, it is pretty clear that if you were to keep a stallion around mares in heat and NOT let them breed this would be pretty tormenting to the stallion. A gelding might not exactly be happy to be kept from the mare, but generally not at the stallion level of obsession and biological drive.

As for the cultural difference, what if instead of ovary/testes removal it was just tubes tied? So the sterilization is slightly less effective but the same hormones are produced, so no potential change in temperment? Would this still be objectionable? Is it the sterilization in general or the fact that is does affect the chemical makeup of the dog as it is typically done with removal of entire organs not just obstructing tubes as it is done in humans?

This is very true!!! Dogs in their "natural form" are wolves. all these different breeds that were created by humans to have pretty fur, long ears, short ears, (clipped ears!!) and designed to be "miniature" so that we can feel like they''re a cute little baby dog their whole lives, are not natural. Many dogs have health problems because they were bred to be "cute" to the point where their bodies are uncomfortable. Many pugs have breathing problems because of their smashed faces, and many other breeds have back problems, etc, that they wouldn''t have if they were still in their "natural form"

 

[Mandarine]

I don''t know how my dog can escape....unless he suddenly learned how to open windows!..

Anyway, if I had a female I would be ok with tying her tubes, since her hormones and natural body functions would continue to be the same.

Psaddict, there is much more you can do if you wanted to. Awareness, for one is a great thing everyone could do....and it''s free!

I''m really not wanting to get into a debate over this (which is what I said from the beginning). If you all want to keep discussing it I think it''s great, but maybe we can strat another topic on the neutering benefits, etc.

M~

 

[psaddict]

I do know there is a lot that I can do. My sister and I volunteered at a girls center in China several years ago (during college). When I said there isn''t much you can do other than donate, I was talking about the typical person who can''t necessarily put a ton of time or effort into doing anything. I don''t know though why you''d say that there''s a lot people can do to help children out there when you don''t seem at all interested with the most basic things you can do to help animals.

 

[jaz464]

Date: 2/9/2007 3:28:26 PM
Author: Mandarine
I don't think it's humane to do that to a dog

Is it humane that thousands of dogs are killed each day due to overpopulation?

Pets are not natural animals that need to be kept in a natural state. Most dogs live in homes instead of with their pack (very unnatural) and are fed dog food instead of killing their own prey (very unnatural). They are walked on leashes instead of migrating with their pack each day. So if we want to keep our dogs as they came, we are not being very successful.

There are people who believe that dogs should be kept natural, but they generally think that having pets at all is inhumane because dogs are not meant to live in houses. They think dogs should not be selectively bred to produce breeds that do not at all resemble their ancestors. This does not seem to be your stance as you have a pet dog that you are considering breeding. So really, I don't see how you are giving your dog a "natural" life.

 

[cara]

Date: 2/9/2007 3:46:24 PM
Author: Mandarine
I don''t know how my dog can escape....unless he suddenly learned how to open windows!..


Anyway, if I had a female I would be ok with tying her tubes, since her hormones and natural body functions would continue to be the same.


Psaddict, there is much more you can do if you wanted to. Awareness, for one is a great thing everyone could do....and it''s free!


I''m really not wanting to get into a debate over this (which is what I said from the beginning). If you all want to keep discussing it I think it''s great, but maybe we can strat another topic on the neutering benefits, etc.


M~

You can have your little boy''s tubes tied too! Its called a vasectomy. Normally for dogs they just remove the ovaries or the testes as these surgeries are more effective and cause desired hormonal changes (no heat for bitches, though sometimes increased aggression, and less marking, humping, aggression in males). But if you are fine with your dog''s temperment and behaviors and feel strongly about keeping his balls, you could just have his tubes tied so it would be like a human man with vasectomy - sterile, but same hormones, instincts and parts.

Its not that I am so worried about your dog''s potential reproduction, you seem to have him under control, its just that your reasoning touched a nerve. This whole "its not natural" theme causes people to advocate the rhythm method only for human birth control, take "natural" medicine for cancer, etc. Many many people are susceptible to the "its natural" argument but, like my aunt and uncle and your most evil neighbors, are just not up to the task of properly training/raising/monitoring their pet so the effect of this ideology is dead puppies at the shelter. It must have taken years of Bob Barker on the Price is Right telling us to spay and neuter our pets for it to become part of the standard American lexicon.

While psaddict''s dig at you was unwarrented, you also don''t know that sumbrides'' moms'' dog was improperly trained and that''s why he kept those behaviors. Maybe your dog was just easy to train... I don''t know dogs as well, but it would be extremely difficult to "train" a stallion to calmly ignore a mare in heat. It would be simply impossible for most stallions.