Brokeback Mountain

[hlmr]

Date: 1/9/2006 7:46:58 PM
Author: Momoftwo

Date: 1/9/2006 7:41:52 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 1/9/2006 7:28:56 PM
Author: Momoftwo
Are you saying you're not tolerant enough to accept other opinions? And there are plenty of people with opinions different than yours.

But momoftwo, you do not tolerate anyone's opinion except your own.

That's not the point anyway, are you saying infidelity is okay since no one mentioned that in their 'reviews'. What I see is everyone is so quick to say how wonderful a love story it is, but they totally ignore the fact that infidelity was a big part of it.

Love doesn't always remain within the boundries of happy marriages between men and women. Sometimes love dares to blossom in relationships that may be repugnant to some people. Love is not logical and law bound and movies would be pretty boring if they had to filmed with those rigid constraints.

That last statement tells me a lot about you. That's a really sad statement on the commitment of marriage. I really nope no one else on here thinks that way about marriage and commitment to your vows. Movies also don't have to make social statements.

Again you have missed the point. My point is that love is for everyone (not just heterosexual marriages) and movies are for entertainment (not just to reaffirm fidelity and heterosexual marriages). If you think that you know anything about MY commitment to MY marriage than you are very wrong but thanks for showing me what YOU are made of by stooping to that level of verbal assault.

Heather

 

[Demelza]

No one here is saying, oh, infidelity is a great thing. But life isn''t always simple and tidy. Not everything is black and white. Imagine if you were forced to live a lie because who you were was so unacceptable to your family, friends, and society in general. Imagine if you weren''t allowed to be with the person you loved because it was deemed immoral, disgusting, unacceptable. Could you imagine then that you might sneak away to be with the one person with whom you felt happy and safe and protected even if it meant breaking your marriage vows? Can you imagine the incredible internal conflict here? That is partly what this movie is about. It is a love story and a tragedy -- it isn''t saying, oh, yeah, infidelity is fun, you should try it. Gosh, I wonder what it would be like to live in such a simple, black and white world!

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 1/9/2006 7:51:17 PM
Author: belle

Date: 1/9/2006 7:45:02 PM
Author: Momoftwo
How tolerant of you to accept the fact that not everyone thinks the way you do. It offends me to the core that you cannot see any other view point than your own.

pot
kettle
black

Thanks Sis, couldn''t have said it better myself!!!

 

[Mara]

Date: 1/9/2006 7:56:43 PM
Author: Demelza
No one here is saying, oh, infidelity is a great thing. But life isn't always simple and tidy. Not everything is black and white. Imagine if you were forced to live a lie because who you were was so unacceptable to your family, friends, and society in general. Imagine if you weren't allowed to be with the person you loved because it was deemed immoral, disgusting, unacceptable. Could you imagine then that you might sneak away to be with the one person with whom you felt happy and safe and protected even if it meant breaking your marriage vows? Can you imagine the incredible internal conflict here? That is partly what this movie is about. It is a love story and a tragedy -- it isn't saying, oh, yeah, infidelity is fun, you should try it. Gosh, I wonder what it would be like to live in such a simple, black and white world!

I wonder that too sometimes!! That is definitely not Planet Earth...there are more shades of gray than one could imagine in everyday life.

Belle's comment pretty much sums it up, I guess all the comments about being rude and negative yesterday didn't make a dent in MO2's delivery, quite unfortunate!

 

[MINE!!]

My husband would LOVE to see it. I am doubting that it will open here, as we are still in a town that will probably keep it out. If it does show, I will not go with him. Love story or no.... I do not accept the lifestyle. NOW... before you get your underwear all up in a knot and think you can call me a bigot.. listen.. YES I SAID LISTEN for one second.

Both of the ushers at my wedding are gay. My hubby''s best friend is gay. I HAVE no problem with someone as a person. I LOVE my gay friend (my usher)(JB), who I joke with all the time about wanting him to be my ''Man'' of Honor because he is such a Diva. I love him, very very much. But that is the whole point here, I love him.. but that does not mean that I have to agree with his lifestyle choices or his ''sexual'' orientation. I love the person.. not the lifestyle.

So there are people like me out there that will not go see this movie, because I will not support it. I will not support the movie with my presence or my money. but when I see JB I will hug him and tell him that he is awesome and when I get off the phone with him next time, I will tell him to take care of himself and that I love him.

So I think it is ignorant and nasty to call someone a ''bigot'' just because their beliefs do not ride the same donkey as you do. really I think those that think people that have different ideas and will call them that are bigots themselves.. but I suppose some would never see that.

 

[Demelza]

This is a genuine question: Without using the Bible as evidence, can someone explain to me what is so objectionable about 2 people of the same sex falling love?

 

[BrownEyes]

Oops ... I came on to the forum tonight to post a follow-up related to my original post about Brokeback Mountain, only to learn that I apparently started a hot political debate - which was NEVER my intention. Sorry folks ...

However, I find it interesting that Ennis'' wife in the movie seems to have been more tolerant of Ennis'' homosexuality AND his infidelity than MO2 apparently is ... Remember, Ennis'' wife stayed with him for years even after she witnessed the liaison with Jack; and his wife and children remained in contact with Ennis and on good terms even after the divorce was final ...

On the issue of infidelity, in my opinion the 1st person Ennis was unfaithful to was HIMSELF - - he was forced to live a lie because homosexuality was NOT accepted in Wyoming (or many other places for that matter) during 1963 when the movie takes place. Ennis said this himself in response to Jack''s suggestion that they get a place and ''make a life together''.

On the other hand, Ennis'' wife was willing to remain in a marriage that was a lie because that''s what society expected of HER at the time.

When Ennis married, he was just trying to conform to what society expected of him. In reality, Ennis'' decision to marry was a form of self-preservation ... he knew that if his homosexuality was discovered, he''d have no job prospects, and either be run out of town or killed ...

Every action has a consequence, and there are no absolute truths in life or in this movie.

I''ll save my follow-up post for another night ...

 

[Kaleigh]

I saw this kind of story first hand, not with my brother but with dear friends who lived next door. Their story is also in my who''s who. Wayne and Gil moved next door to me. Gil had been married as was expected of him being from a foreign country. Being gay was not tolerated. So he got married and had two beautiful son''s. He realised he could no longer live a lie. He got divorced and found Wayne. They were together for 30 years, Wayne died of Cancer 4 years ago. He was a brother to me after I lost my brother. Anyway, the point is their story was one of love. Gil''s ex wife believe it or not embraced Wayne. She knew her husband was gay and loved him enough to set him free to find his true happiness. It was great to see them all get along. It''s rare I know. But thought I''d share a real life story....

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 1/9/2006 9:06:09 PM
Author: Demelza
This is a genuine question: Without using the Bible as evidence, can someone explain to me what is so objectionable about 2 people of the same sex falling love?

Well, I think asking that question and looking for answer without using a Bible is not one I can answer. I base my beliefs on how I was raised, The Bible, my faith, people I know, what I have seen and how I feel about it. AND that is my opinion and my beliefs and it is a belief that I will hope to instill in my children as well.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 1/9/2006 9:29:08 PM
Author: MINE!!


Well, I think asking that question and looking for answer without using a Bible is not one I can answer. I base my beliefs on how I was raised, The Bible, my faith, people I know, what I have seen and how I feel about it. AND that is my opinion and my beliefs and it is a belief that I will hope to instill in my children as well.

Okay, well, I'm NOT a follower of the bible and I do not think being gay & involement in a gay relationship is a sin. but, I can say that although, I'm not Christian, so much of our country is that it's social conditioning that hangs over us regardless of whether or not a person is of this faith that I feel that the bible, on some level, influences all of our views (for good or bad) when it comes to homosexuality.

 

[larussel03]

Date: 1/9/2006 4:53:09 PM
Author: Momoftwo
Regardless of the whole gay thing, What about the fact it involves infidelity?

I dont think this movie is about infidelity so much as forbidden, unattainable, unacceptable love. Sort of like a Romeo and Juliet but with a twist. The two men could never be together because it is considered unacceptable, so they've settled for lives where they have to "fake it" and they're not truly happy and then they meet each other, but can never truly be together. I cannot WAIT to see this, sounds like a great story/tearjerker to me!!

 

[pricescope]

Date: 1/9/2006 7:56:43 PM
Author: Demelza
Imagine if you weren't allowed to be with the person you loved because it was deemed immoral, disgusting, unacceptable.

Gosh, I wonder what it would be like to live in such a simple, black and white world!

I don't need to imagine it, we have lived in a society where homosexuality was a criminal offence - how about that?

ETA: Half of world's art and literature involve infidelity in the story because it's a human nature regardless of orientation.

 

[Demelza]

MINE -- thanks for your answer. Perhaps it is unfair of me to ask you to answer without using the bible since I know for a lot of people this informs their view of the world. At the same time, however, I am aware that there is some debate amongst Christians as to whether homosexuality is a sin.

As someone who is not Christian and does not follow the teachings of the Bible, however, I have a difficult time understanding how anyone could object to two human beings falling in love and sharing a life together, same sex or not. Because, to me, that's all that it is; just EXACTLY as it is for heterosexuals.

 

[Demelza]

Date: 1/9/2006 10:10:28 PM
Author: Pricescope

Date: 1/9/2006 7:56:43 PM

Author: Demelza

Imagine if you weren''t allowed to be with the person you loved because it was deemed immoral, disgusting, unacceptable.


Gosh, I wonder what it would be like to live in such a simple, black and white world!

I don''t need to imagine it, we have lived in a society where homosexuality was a criminal offence - how about that?


ETA: Half of world''s art and literature involve infidelity in the story because it''s a human nature regardless of orientation.

Thank goodness both you and I now live in a country in which homosexuals are finally allowed to marry!!!!!

 

[1sophia]

Homosexuality is a very small part of this film. It''s more a love story than a sex story. Movies are meant to take you out of your own experience into another. That''s why I pay my 10 plus bucks per film. I don''t want to see my everyday life, I don''t need to pay for that. I want to expand my mind and be taken to another place, other than my own. It''s a way of escape, really. I personally enjoy viewing life from another perspective, thinking out of the box, growing mentally.

When I see a film I don''t want to be judgemental. I want to experience the full force of someone elses experience. Take in the possiblilites that surround us 24/7. Open my eyes to life outside of my own, or simply be entertained. For goodness sake it''s a film, relax and enjoy!

 

[Momoftwo]

The Bible is what many people around the world live by and you confuse not believing something is right with intolerance. Being tolerant of what I feel goes against my life values would be going against everything I believe. I received a couple of messages of support from people that didn't want to be attacked the way I was. Kaleigh, I thought you were a nice person. I asked a question and got flamed. How very mature and respectful of all of you. Gee, sounds like Pot, Kettle, Black to me.

 

[devientdrow]

Momoftwo,
Like stated in another thread on here it''s not always what your saying but how you are saying it. I don''t feel sorry for you or think you got flamed one little bit. You come on here and post aggressive messages where your just pretty much making yourself seem like a rude or mean person. Fine, it makes sense. You have certain beliefs or opinions damn right stand up for them. But do you think it''s possible to do so in a tactful way where your not talking down to anyone?

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/10/2006 7:09:16 AM
Author: Momoftwo

I asked a question and got flamed. How very mature and respectful of all of you.

I haven''t jumped in up until now.

Since you live by the bible, maybe you''ll understand the phrase "you reap what you sow"?

It wasn''t the content of the question you asked; it was the high-handed and sanctimonious way in which you asked it. Delivery, baby.....it''s all in the delivery.

Since you saw fit to be disrespectful in your delivery, you reaped precisely what you sowed.....disrespect in return.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/9/2006 7:20:20 PM
Author: Momoftwo

Date: 1/9/2006 6:27:12 PM

Author: Pricescope

Mom, are you for real?

Uh, yes. Are you? Is that a taboo subject? There is infidelity is there not? Is that okay too?


I'm sorry, I obviously forgot I can't have my own opinions on the subject. It's a legitimate question.

This is my entry into this thread. I was busy yesterday .

My question is not whether one should condone what he feels to be immoral, but if something one considers immoral should never be acceptable to him as the subject of or a part of, a work of art.

In other words, are immoral topics bad topics for movies? Murder is immoral, but look at the number of movies made with murder in them! Should no one have made Bonnie and Clyde, The Hound of the Baskervilles, or Murder on the Orient Express into movies because the subject, murder, was immoral?

Irina raised this issue when she commented that much of the world's literature contains infidelity.

I can think of pieces of fiction where infidelity is punished in a story and pieces in which it is forgiven or even extolled.

But should its inclusion in a book or movie mean that the entire piece should not be viewed? What about Madame Bovary; The Scarlet Letter; Anna Karenina; Dr. Zhivago? As Irina said, some of the world's greatest literature contains adultery, but does not always laud it.

Deborah

 

[pricescope]

Speaking of art, the most popular for the last century Christmas music was composed by gay.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Love is the greatest gift life gives to us. When someone is lucky enough to find love, it doesn''t matter how or with whom.

 

[Strawdermangrl]

Saw the movie on Christmas Eve with my Mother, Father, Grandmother, Grandfather, Husband and My Great Grandmother. My great grandmother was born in 1914- I wondered what this was like to see in her eyes, she thought the movie was moving and very well acted, I cannot agree more. Jake and Heath both proved themselves as great actors and I feel that thier careers will go up from here. I am cheering for great things for this movie, I think that it was tasteful and it brings to mind a new view on the way things are perceived and seen.

MC- Donnie Darko- My husband and I watched that movie and we had in depth conversations about that movie for weeks. He would email me and say- what about this, and it would spawn from there. I think that you have to see that movie more than once- after you have time to lay back and think for a while.

 

[fire&ice]

I have no intentions of seeing this film. The subject matter is of little interest to me. This weekend sealed it''s fate. I wanted to watch my Christmas present of The Candid Camera DVD''s. Hubby insisted on watching the Magnificant Seven airing on PBS. I hate westerns or anything set in "western". He convinced me that the story was great in spite of my hating of this genre. He was wrong. It was terrible. Didn''t grab me once. Can''t get over it.

That said, I do have issue with the gay organizations calling for a boycott of a few of the reviews that said - a very good film is raised to an excellent art film because of the subject matter. I didn''t boycott any of the papers that said "Cheaper by the Dozen 2" sucked. Clearly, they have never experienced vacations on a lake where cabins & subsequent other league of cabins competed. It was quite relavent and funny to me - as I experienced it.

What I see here is defending of a lifestyle. It makes it seem that to be an open homosexual as some courageous act. It doesn''t make someone a better person, a better artist, a kinder person - just as heterosexuality doesn''t make me any of those things just by the virtue. And, the reverse true. It just seems that if you go see this movie, somehow you are a more enlightened person, especially for men. For pete''s sake - maybe you just like movies about the west. Maybe you don''t.

Not that anyone should care - but for the record - I don''t see anything wrong with love between two people of any kind. But, I don''t think one''s sexual orientation defines you one way or another.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/10/2006 10:27:51 AM
Author: AGBF

My question is not whether one should condone what he feels to be immoral, but if something one considers immoral should never be acceptable to him as the subject of or a part of, a work of art.

In other words, are immoral topics bad topics for movies? Murder is immoral, but look at the number of movies made with murder in them! Should no one have made Bonnie and Clyde, The Hound of the Baskervilles, or Murder on the Orient Express into movies because the subject, murder, was immoral?

I thought along the same line on the way to work this morning. I was thinking about movies and books over the years....."Crime & Punishment" and stories of Jesse James and robbing trains.....westerns that my father watched, etc.

Appreciating the telling of such stories doesn't require condoning or endorsing the behavior portrayed.

My other line of thought....but wasted to try to explain under present narrow-viewed constraints here, I think....is that infidelity can be more broadly interpreted. Some would consider it "infidelity" to go into a marriage knowing that it's a lie....that one isn't TRULY committing one's self to the marriage in MIND and BODY.

Marrying solely because it's "expected" as acceptable behavior, to me, could constitute a form of infidelity. Marrying one person when you actually pine for another (who you would want but cannot have) could constitute a form of infidelity. In either instance, one is entering a union less than whole-heartedly.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/10/2006 11:49:00 AM
Author: fire&ice

Not that anyone should care - but for the record - I don''t see anything wrong with love between two people of any kind. But, I don''t think one''s sexual orientation defines you one way or another.

Agree with much of what you said......I won''t see it because I have no interest in westerns of any kind. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

Regarding what defines a person.....I think one is defined by his sexual orientation, his gender, his religious beliefs, his friendships, his relationships, his values, his work ethic, and an infinite number of other things. All of these weave into the fabric of a person''s identity and being.

So, for me, it would be more accurate to say "one''s sexual orientation isn''t the SOLE factor that defines him." But I believe that all elements and facets of a person do indeed contribute to defining him.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/10/2006 12:05:29 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 1/10/2006 11:49:00 AM
Author: fire&ice

Not that anyone should care - but for the record - I don''t see anything wrong with love between two people of any kind. But, I don''t think one''s sexual orientation defines you one way or another.

Agree with much of what you said......I won''t see it because I have no interest in westerns of any kind. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

Regarding what defines a person.....I think one is defined by his sexual orientation, his gender, his religious beliefs, his friendships, his relationships, his values, his work ethic, and an infinite number of other things. All of these weave into the fabric of a person''s identity and being.

So, for me, it would be more accurate to say ''one''s sexual orientation isn''t the SOLE factor that defines him.'' But I believe that all elements and facets of a person do indeed contribute to defining him.

True enough. And, precisely my point about the direction that I saw this thread.

It can define. It''s not defining.

 

[Demelza]

Date: 1/10/2006 11:49:00 AM
Author: fire&ice

What I see here is defending of a lifestyle. It makes it seem that to be an open homosexual as some courageous act.

I do think that, in many instances, being an openly gay person, even today, is a courageous act. Look at the prejudice they face, the people who say that they are immoral or disgusting, the extent to which they have to defend themselves against insult or even injury. Remember Matthew Shepherd. No, being gay does not make you a better, smarter, kinder person -- but I do think it takes courage to be out, particularly if you live anywhere other than LA, SF, NY, or a few other select places across the country.

 

[moon river]

Can''t we all just get along?

 

[Mara]

Date: 1/10/2006 7:09:16 AM
Author: Momoftwo
The Bible is what many people around the world live by and you confuse not believing something is right with intolerance. Being tolerant of what I feel goes against my life values would be going against everything I believe. I received a couple of messages of support from people that didn't want to be attacked the way I was. Kaleigh, I thought you were a nice person. I asked a question and got flamed. How very mature and respectful of all of you. Gee, sounds like Pot, Kettle, Black to me.

Okay, now it's my turn to ask, are you serious here??

Did you not see that other nose stud thread where multiple people said you were being rude and negative? I noticed you did not come back and respond to ANYTHING that people said, so I don't know if you just ignored it or maybe you just don't agree.

Do you not remember Heart Prongs mentioning the SAME THING a few weeks ago? To which I think you told her off, of course...nothing like being defensive rather than sitting down and saying 'Golly Gee maybe I do have the tendency to sound really bitchy most of the time? Maybe I should tone that down since its not what I intend.'

Of course it's hard to interpret written word on here, and I almost laugh to be the one calling you out like this because I have my own particular style that not everyone likes, and I can be pretty tough at times...but do you really not see how you sound in every post? It's defensive, combative, and countless other negative terms. There isn't even anything positive or remotely friendly posted to break it up or to give people a sense of who you really are. We all have bad days here and there, but every day?

Then when people speak up because they have been noticing it for weeks, you act wounded and say that everyone ELSE is being rude and immature. Lord give me strength!!

So either you will say now *I* am being rude and immature for saying this or you will just ignore it. Either way, I don't care...I've said my peace but seriously, consider what people are saying here, in multiple threads, no less. No one likes a consistently sour pickle. Much of why these boards work is that because people are for the most part respectful of others opinions and their likes and dislikes. If we all said what we really thought all of the time, it would be chaos.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/10/2006 12:37:47 PM
Author: Demelza

Date: 1/10/2006 11:49:00 AM
Author: fire&ice

What I see here is defending of a lifestyle. It makes it seem that to be an open homosexual as some courageous act.

I do think that, in many instances, being an openly gay person, even today, is a courageous act. Look at the prejudice they face, the people who say that they are immoral or disgusting, the extent to which they have to defend themselves against insult or even injury. Remember Matthew Shepherd. No, being gay does not make you a better, smarter, kinder person -- but I do think it takes courage to be out, particularly if you live anywhere other than LA, SF, NY, or a few other select places across the country.

This is the insanity of it all. I don''t think it''s courageous at all. You are being yourself. I don''t think it should be looked at as some noble act. One is faced with being oneself and facing the ramification in ALL aspects of oneself. Is one courageous for being blonde in a sea of people who think they are ditzy?

Momof2 has a viewpoint that would likely incite flames. Not a very popular viewpoint on PS. Does it make her courageous? In your POV, it would. Look at the ramifications of her beliefs. I''m sure the delivery had something to do with it - but it wasn''t an embraceable POV - as I knew it wouldn''t be.

It just seems like any belief that is out of the mainstream should be thought of as embraceable. I can remember years ago a conversation I had with an associate. She went on and on about how great someone was. I thought the person to be a complete Ahole. When I expressed my opinion, she proclaims - "well, you know he''s gay." Like that had anything to do with shaping my opinion - and as if it should.

In the end, it seems like one is enlightened to go see this film. I don''t think so. It''s just a movie.