Brokeback Mountain

[CourtHorn]

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own. This is different than 2 people that disagree about something (i.e. abortion).

If a person genuinely listens to me about my feelings on a subject, even if they disagree, I don''t think they are a bigot. (I might think they are an idiot, but not a bigot

)

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Date: 1/10/2006 8:45:02 PM



The way I would define a bigot is someone whose belief system discriminates against others based on race, gender, creed, or sexual orientation. I'm not sure what you mean by 'lifestyles,' but I believe that if someone is denied certain rights simply because she is African American, gay, Jewish, etc., then this qualifies as prejudice. Gays are not allowed to marry in this country. That, to me, is bigotry, the same way it was bigotry when segregation was in effect in the first half of the 20th century.

But what if someone is a racist, but doesn't discriminate? Or someone who feels homosexuality is wrong, but doesn't protest gay rights or try to stop gay marriage? What if I'm an animal rights supporter and am against hunting, and protest hunts or sign petitions for PETA trying to stop animal testing? Am I a bigot because I'm trying to take away someone's hunting rights?

 

[moon river]

Date: 1/10/2006 8:46:13 PM
Author: CourtHorn
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own. This is different than 2 people that disagree about something (i.e. abortion).

If a person genuinely listens to me about my feelings on a subject, even if they disagree, I don''t think they are a bigot. (I might think they are an idiot, but not a bigot

)

Very well put

!!!! That''s the best definition I''ve heard seconded only to my daughter''s view on bigotry when she was 9 years old. She said "Mama, did you ever notice that a predjudice person who''s trying to convince you they''re not can tell you exactly how many(insert minority of your choice here) friends they have? In her case (she is biracial white/african american) she was talking about a friend''s parents who told their child she couldn''t go to another childs house because my daughter would be there, but" they''re not predjudice because 2 of their friends are black". Very perceptive for a 9 year old. I personally cannot tell you how many of my friends are gay, straight, white, hispanic, aisian, african american, handicapped, not handicapped, etc...............

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/10/2006 6:44:08 PM
Author: Hest88
See Deb, this I disagree with. It''s easy to let people off the hook because, as Americans, we believe in the sanctity of religious beliefs, but it makes us impotent. How do we differentiate between a religious or moral position as opposed to something else? It''s okay for someone to be a bigot because of their religious beliefs but not because their parents told them gay people were bad? And the whole ''I don''t hate the person only the behavior'' argument doesn''t hold water either, as far as I''m concerned. It smacks too much of ''I don''t mind black people---as long as they know their place.''

Hest,

I may have to tackle this in the morning. It is almost 9:00 pm here on the East Coast and I am not about to do my best thinking of the day now. What you say makes sense...but I cannot reconcile it with my belief that others should be able to believe what they choose. Maybe there will be a miracle and in the morning I will be struck brilliant .

Hugs,
Deb

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Date: 1/10/2006 9:03:10 PM
Author: moon river

Date: 1/10/2006 8:46:13 PM

Author: CourtHorn

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own. This is different than 2 people that disagree about something (i.e. abortion).


If a person genuinely listens to me about my feelings on a subject, even if they disagree, I don''t think they are a bigot. (I might think they are an idiot, but not a bigot

)

Very well put

!!!! That''s the best definition I''ve heard seconded only to my daughter''s view on bigotry when she was 9 years old. She said ''Mama, did you ever notice that a predjudice person who''s trying to convince you they''re not can tell you exactly how many(insert minority of your choice here) friends they have? In her case (she is biracial white/african american) she was talking about a friend''s parents who told their child she couldn''t go to another childs house because my daughter would be there, but'' they''re not predjudice because 2 of their friends are black''. Very perceptive for a 9 year old. I personally cannot tell you how many of my friends are gay, straight, white, hispanic, aisian, african american, handicapped, not handicapped, etc...............

As a minority myself, I understand what your daughter is trying to say. I happen to have a different twist on things. I totally agree that there are people who try to assuage their guilt by saying, "See, I''m not prejudiced b/c I have X number of minority friends." But I *do* notice people''s race, and I *can* tell you how many Asian, white, Latino, etc. friends I have, just like I notice whether someone is male or female right away. It''s a difference that my friends and I notice and celebrate, learning from one another and being introduced to new cultures. I hope this post doesn''t offend you; I just wanted to offer another perspective. But yes, I agree that some people try to make themselves look better by playing the race card.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/10/2006 8:45:02 PM
Author: Demelza

The way I would define a bigot is someone whose belief system discriminates against others based on race, gender, creed, or sexual orientation. I'm not sure what you mean by 'lifestyles,' but I believe that if someone is denied certain rights simply because she is African American, gay, Jewish, etc., then this qualifies as prejudice. Gays are not allowed to marry in this country. That, to me, is bigotry, the same way it was bigotry when segregation was in effect in the first half of the 20th century.

For the sake of commonality of discussion, let's defer to published definitions.

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Example: Archie Bunker was a bigot. He was intolerant of blacks, jews, the unemployed, and a WHOLE host of other classes.
A wholesale dismissal of anyone who was any of those things. In short, ANYONE not like him.

Discrimination: Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice; unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice.

Example: Failing to hire someone due to ethnicity or creed. Failing to rent to people with children.


The distinction I'm trying to get at may be better served by example.

Situation: I'm in a position of power at a lending institution that includes discretion to hire, and I am a devout Catholic. The most qualified applicant is gay.

--I deny an offer to him just because he's gay. In that case, I'm discriminating. (treatment)

--I offer him the job, but hold him personally in disregard just because he's gay. I know that he participates in Big Brothers, or that he volunteers at the local soup kitchen (things that I might admire in others); but I don't like him anyway just because he's gay. In that instance, I'm a bigot.

--I personally don't approve of his "lifestyle" (engaging in sexual behavior that violates my personal moral beliefs as a devout Catholic), but offer him the job, consider him for promotions, acknowledge his achievements, respect his ability to mediate or play golf or whatever else. In this case, I'm neither discriminating nor a bigot.....I just don't share the same value system on a given behavior. I will never condone his sexual behavior, but I will not dismiss that person out of hand based solely on that.

 

[moon river]

LS-You said it better than I put it. I just meant to say I don''t keep count. I''m sure you''ve heard it all. We certainly have. Some people think that just because their neighbor, banker, etc.... is of a certain race, religion, sexual oriantation, then they get some sort of a ''pass'' over being predjudiced. My daughter, now a teen, will be the first to tell someone "You have a ghetto pass, don''t make me revoke it" if they start to show some sort of racism. I believe everyone has a right to feel anyway they want and to voice those views unless it hurts others. I also believe this is a diamond sounding board and while we discuss differant things every now and then sometimes things get ugly, like now. Yes, we''re all sharing our differing views and no one is going to ''change'' anyones point of view here. I don''t think BrownEyes intended for this to get so out of hand and heated. It''s not a political debate here. It'' all about the bling here.

 

[aljdewey]

Moon - your daughter sounds like she has her ca-ca together.

Congrats on such an exceptional parenting job. She sounds like a lovely person.

 

[moon river]

Date: 1/10/2006 9:35:35 PM
Author: aljdewey
Moon - your daughter sounds like she has her ca-ca together.

Congrats on such an exceptional parenting job. She sounds like a lovely person.

Thank you so much. She is so together for her age and I''m proud of the way I raised my children, to be open to everyone, not to judge, and to accept the things she can''t change, and change the things she can''t stand. She had a diverse circle of friends as do I and her older sister.

 

[Erin]

I''m going to break the flow a little here. I am not really entertained by western movies. I don''t care if it''s a classic - I''ll pass. Until I saw Open Range. For some reason I love that movie and it definitely is in the western genre but it had that special something else which made me love it.

Considering the most obvious topic at hand in this thread, it would likely neither make me want to see it nor not want to see it. However it sounds to me like this film also has that special something else - at least that''s my perception from previous posts and now can''t wait to go. Thanks for the ''review.''

By the way, you can always tell a heated discussion has ensued when a post about a good movie turns four pages

 

[Hest88]

Date: 1/10/2006 8:16:25 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 1/10/2006 6:44:08 PM
Author: Hest88

It''s okay for someone to be a bigot because of their religious beliefs but not because their parents told them gay people were bad?

I didn''t say it was okay for people to bigots...in fact, if you go back and reread, I specifically said just the opposite. I said *I* dont'' believe that makes it right.

Okay sorry; serves me right for just going by AGBF''s quote!

Date: 1/10/2006 6:44:08 PM
Author: Hest88

And the whole ''I don''t hate the person only the behavior'' argument doesn''t hold water either, as far as I''m concerned. It smacks too much of ''I don''t mind black people---as long as they know their place.''

I see. So then, Mary has to approve of every behavior by John, whether she believes it''s morally right or wrong, and if she doesn''t, she''s a bigot?
I love Mara to death. If tomorrow, she decides to steal something, I most assuredly won''t respect or approve of that behavior. Will I be a bigot then? No. I''ll still love Mara, but I won''t approve of that behavior. ...The black example in this case doesn''t hold water at all, by the way. Not even remotely the same stratosphere.....not an appropriate correlation.

I''m not talking about a mere difference of opinion. I''m talking about the attitude toward a gay person''s sexuality. Homophobia *is* akin to racism because it is discrimination against someone for something they have no control and which also harms no one.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/10/2006 11:53:35 PM
Author: Hest88

Date: 1/10/2006 8:16:25 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 1/10/2006 6:44:08 PM
Author: Hest88

It's okay for someone to be a bigot because of their religious beliefs but not because their parents told them gay people were bad?

I didn't say it was okay for people to bigots...in fact, if you go back and reread, I specifically said just the opposite. I said *I* dont' believe that makes it right.

Okay sorry; serves me right for just going by AGBF's quote!

Date: 1/10/2006 6:44:08 PM
Author: Hest88

And the whole 'I don't hate the person only the behavior' argument doesn't hold water either, as far as I'm concerned. It smacks too much of 'I don't mind black people---as long as they know their place.'

I see. So then, Mary has to approve of every behavior by John, whether she believes it's morally right or wrong, and if she doesn't, she's a bigot?
I love Mara to death. If tomorrow, she decides to steal something, I most assuredly won't respect or approve of that behavior. Will I be a bigot then? No. I'll still love Mara, but I won't approve of that behavior. ...The black example in this case doesn't hold water at all, by the way. Not even remotely the same stratosphere.....not an appropriate correlation.

I'm not talking about a mere difference of opinion. I'm talking about the attitude toward a gay person's sexuality. Homophobia *is* akin to racism because it is discrimination against someone for something they have no control and which also harms no one.

I'm not talking about a mere difference of opinion, either. But deeply disagreeing with a person's sexual behavior is not necessarily "homophobia". Homophobia is "I don't like you/don't accept you BECAUSE you belong to this group". It's not "I am offended by THIS behavior, but I have no problem with you otherwise."

As far as the issue of harm goes......something that offends a deeply held religious tenet is seen as harm in and of itself. It doesn't have to results in injury to a party to be perceived as wrong. Intent is much more important than result (and that's something we see in civil/societal life, too. You could attempt to shoot someone and miss completely. They weren't harmed, but you're still charged with attempted murder. It's still unlawful to have tried even though no one was ultimately hurt in the process.)

Perfect example: I grew up Catholic. As far as I'm personally concerned, I don't agree with the Catholic Church's teachings or stance on artificial birth control. Their argument: the intention is to engage in sex without the creation of life which is against the beliefs of the Church.

My argument: Semantics. You're ok with the rhythm method, and people who practice that are ALSO intending to engage in sex without the creation of life. My way is just horribly more effective than yours! But the INTENT was the same going in.

Nevertheless, those who strictly follow the church's teachings/doctrine believe artificial birth control is morally wrong and disapprove of those who practice such birth control.

No one is harmed in either instance here, either.....but one is viewed as morally acceptable in that religion, and one is not.

Again, I personally don't have a problem with it at all. Live and let live, far as I'm concerned. You mind your business and I'll mind mine, so to speak. But I'm not deeply devout to any given religion either, so maybe it's easier for me to reconcile that openness than it might be for someone whose religion was very strong in its rejection of it.

 

[Kaleigh]

No one chooses to be gay. I know many people feel it is wrong, against their beliefs etc... But think of it as if you were born a certain way. You just come out that way, nothing you can do about it. Today there are still those that believe it''s a choice. Honestly it''s the hardest road and most would not choose it if their life depended upon it. This is what I learned from my brother, hope it sheds some light....

 

[koko]

You all are scaring me!! Momoftwo has valid points. When you live outside of God''s plan for your life, you invite unhappiness in. I don''t care if the sin is gluttony, murder, infidelity, gossip/slander, or whatever. Sin is sin, no matter how "big or small" it seems to us. It will eventually erode away your happiness. I think the Bible is a handbook God gave us, and that obedience leads to understanding of yourself & others. We see patients where I work of every race/age/religion/denomination, etc. and it seems the elderly people who are the happiest are true Christians. They have a glow about them.....what I mean to say is these people are not judgmental of others, they just live their own life to please God and be obedient to Him in every aspect. They don''t advertise what they are, but live by example. I live in the South where "What church do you go to?" is a question people will ask you, not to judge, but just to be sociable because it''s really part of the fabric of life in these parts.....I believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, and that history supports that. If you look at the origins of many religions, you will see that they are "man made" to suit the desires & wishes of the "prophet" or whoever started it. They will claim they had a direct line to God. But....Christianity has had many historical witnesses to what occurred. And the Bible had many of the same stories in the beginning as the Koran. The trouble comes when men start "adding & subtracting" to/from the factual events therein. I think God is our Father in Heaven, and like a father on earth, expects obedience & knows it leads to what''s best for us. But, I think he loves us all unconditionally, and like our own parents, even when we continue to be selfish & turn away from Him. Ok, sorry to ramble, but I don''t intend to see this movie. It offends my beliefs as a Christian....you can love the person and not encourage the sin. It offends me just as much to see the "G.D." word in films. Curiously, I''ve noticed that Jewish directors are really bad about this, and they are God''s chosen people. Go figure!!!

 

[strmrdr]

koko, well said.

interesting thread.

I wont be going to see the movie for a few reasons.
1> its a chick flick, a western isnt a western without at least a gunfight every 3rd scene, anything else is a chick flick.
2> I dont support the lifestyle.

But I wont be looking down in anyone that goes to see it either.
They are exercising there rights by making it/seeing it.. im exercising my rights by not going to see it and ignoring anything about it.
If someone wants to live the gay lifestyle it is no business of mine.
live and let live.
But Im not going to tolerate anyone pushing me to accept it either because that interferes with my rights.
This is my one and only comment on it because frankly I dont give a rats fanny about pretty much anything hollywierd does and dont give them my money at the theaters.
I might consider an occasional DVD rental because that dont feed the beast as badly and on occasion someone in hollywierd does a good movie.
Im not going to get into the bought and paid for copyright extensions and the unconstitutional and rights breaking dmca which are further reasons to ignore hollywierd.

 

[widget]

Author: kaleigh

No one chooses to be gay.
So true...

Today there are still those that believe it''s a choice.
As evidenced by some posts in this thread!

I saw the movie yesterday. It was excellent.

I can understand some people not wanting to see this film because the theme makes them too uncomfortable. (I, for one, think ''feeling uncomfortable'' once in a while can be a good thing).

It is interesting to me, and ironic perhaps, that several posters have said that they won''t see it because "they don''t support the lifestyle"....while the story is actually about a couple of guys who chose NOT to live the "lifestyle" and the huge price they and their loved ones paid for it.

widget

 

[hlmr]

Date: 1/11/2006 12:48:05 AM
Author: kaleigh
No one chooses to be gay. I know many people feel it is wrong, against their beliefs etc... But think of it as if you were born a certain way. You just come out that way, nothing you can do about it. Today there are still those that believe it''s a choice. Honestly it''s the hardest road and most would not choose it if their life depended upon it. This is what I learned from my brother, hope it sheds some light....

If only people would try and understand this truth then there would be more tolerance, and less fear and hate.

 

[Caribou]

I agree with Kaleigh..no one chooses to be gay. Was it your choice to be heterosexual??? NO!

It''s disturbing to me how closed minded people can be.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/11/2006 12:48:05 AM
Author: kaleigh
No one chooses to be gay. I know many people feel it is wrong, against their beliefs etc... But think of it as if you were born a certain way. You just come out that way, nothing you can do about it. Today there are still those that believe it''s a choice. Honestly it''s the hardest road and most would not choose it if their life depended upon it. This is what I learned from my brother, hope it sheds some light....

Agreed. Did someone suggest it was?

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/11/2006 7:30:20 AM
Author: koko
It offends me just as much to see the 'G.D.' word in films. Curiously, I've noticed that Jewish directors are really bad about this, and they are God's chosen people. Go figure!!!

Let's get this straight. When a Jew does something you consider distasteful, you appear to start to wonder if the Jews are really "the Chosen People".

Is that following all the teachings of your Bible? I actually do not know, because I do not know if the Bible refers to the Jews as "the Chosen People" or if that phrase originated elsewhere (someplace you need not believe or respect).

If you believe every word of the Bible (as you say) and the Bible does say they are "the Chosen People", you seem to have a problem. When a Jew steps out of line (your line) you notice and start to doubt that such a group could ever have been given an honorable appellation by God.

This sounds anti-semitic to me. I love it when some supposed Christians claim Jesus was not a Jew, too. Jeus lived and died a Jew.

Deborah

 

[strmrdr]

te:[/b] 1/11/2006 10:52:23 AM
Author: AGBF

note: Not going to replete it here but am refering to the post above this one.

[/quote]
stepping back in for a second...
huh? how did you get that from what koko wrote?
Reread please before you start a major flame war :}

 

[pricescope]

Guys, please keep in mind that there are many people of different nationalities and religious believes or atheists participate/read this board. Therefore, please refrain form stating your personal strong opinions on these sensitive matters because any opinion (even from the Bible, Torah or Quran) can be arguable and may offend people of different faith.

Don''t forget both Hitler (a christian) and Stalin (an atheist) believed that homosexuality is a crime.

 

[moon river]

Date: 1/11/2006 12:09:59 PM
Author: Pricescope
Guys, please keep in mind that there are many people of different nationalities and religious believes or atheists participate/read this board. Therefore, please refrain form stating your personal strong opinions on these sensitive matters because any opinion (even from the Bible, Torah or Quran) can be arguable and may offend people of different faith.

Don''t forget both Hitler (a christian) and Stalin (an atheist) believed that homosexuality is a crime.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/11/2006 12:09:59 PM
Author: Pricescope
Guys, please keep in mind that there are many people of different nationalities and religious believes or atheists participate/read this board. Therefore, please refrain form stating your personal strong opinions on these sensitive matters because any opinion (even from the Bible, Torah or Quran) can be arguable and may offend people of different faith.

I knew I was staying out of this thread for a reason.
I will try and be more PC (very hard to do im the most un-PC person)
Sorry if I may have offended anyone