Burma Blues at NSC

[bgray]

anyone have thoughts on the stone i posted--its from natural sapphire company?

Bgray,
Please provide a link to the stone so that I can see additional views (pavilion and profile) of the sapphire. Also, it will be helpful to know the treatment, origin, lab cert, measurements and etc before commenting.

thanks chrono--i appreciate it. i am looking for that classic square-ish old mine cushion.

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.co ... neid=B3433

 

[chrono]

Colour issues:
1. I see a good bit of colour zoning at the lower left, which I saw in both the pictures and video.
2. Colour looks a little violetish on my monitor but it could just be my monitor as the GIA cert noted that it is blue. That’s not a big deal anyway as I prefer a hint of violet in my blue sapphires.
3. For the size and being untreated, the colour and saturation is quite good. No obvious gray face up.
In short, this stone may be worth having a look at in person with verification of quality & value by a good independent appraiser. For something this expensive, I’d also spring for an AGL prestige report for the quality assessment.

Cut issues:
1. Somewhat lopsided in the pavilion which might be a challenge to set, but that’s a minor issue
2. More importantly, I am concerned about the wavy girdle where it is thick in certain areas (which is fine) but appears dangerously thin in others.
3. Slightly windowed but not a huge deal.

Clarity issue:
I saw a little bubble at the top left of the stone, which is right at the edge on the crown. It looks like an inclusion that doesn’t break the surface but the location is enough to make me pause.

 

[bgray]

Colour issues:
1. I see a good bit of colour zoning at the lower left, which I saw in both the pictures and video.
2. Colour looks a little violetish on my monitor but it could just be my monitor as the GIA cert noted that it is blue. That’s not a big deal anyway as I prefer a hint of violet in my blue sapphires.
3. For the size and being untreated, the colour and saturation is quite good. No obvious gray face up.
In short, this stone may be worth having a look at in person with verification of quality & value by a good independent appraiser. For something this expensive, I’d also spring for an AGL prestige report for the quality assessment.

Cut issues:
1. Somewhat lopsided in the pavilion which might be a challenge to set, but that’s a minor issue
2. More importantly, I am concerned about the wavy girdle where it is thick in certain areas (which is fine) but appears dangerously thin in others.
3. Slightly windowed but not a huge deal.

Clarity issue:
I saw a little bubble at the top left of the stone, which is right at the edge on the crown. It looks like an inclusion that doesn’t break the surface but the location is enough to make me pause.

wow are you observant: i noticed some of these things but not all. thanks very much. (yes a tiny hint of violet which is my preference) any suggestions for other vendors to explore?

 

[chrono]

Are you looking to find the stone on your own or are you willing to have a vendor source the stone for you? I’m not sure of your requirements, hence do not know which vendors to suggest. Just some basic requirements will be helpful, such as minimum carat weight, treatment level, origin (if you are fussed on it but it looks like you are open to stones of African origin) and etc.

 

[VapidLapid]

I am speculating that nsc's contempt of independent labs might be influenced by, or have caused them to go into the business of grading stones for other retailers

http://www.capistranomining.com/index.p ... oductId=51

Still I would be prejudiced against any stone from any vendor that had an nsc grading report as its only pedigree

 

[T L]

Does NSC even own the expensive equipment that can test for diffusion like a LA-ICP-MS, which is preferred over a LIBS. The machine costs several hundred thousand dollars from what I've heard, and very few labs around the world have one.

 

[VapidLapid]

I wonder if Beagles can be trained to sniff out diffusion treated stones the way they sniff out bedbugs

 

[bgray]

Are you looking to find the stone on your own or are you willing to have a vendor source the stone for you? I’m not sure of your requirements, hence do not know which vendors to suggest. Just some basic requirements will be helpful, such as minimum carat weight, treatment level, origin (if you are fussed on it but it looks like you are open to stones of African origin) and etc.

dont care either way--will buy from vendor: i want a stone thats approximately 10mm by 10mm or a little larger. I dont care about origin I care about color. I prefer what is more typically kashmir "like"--medium cobalt maybe with a hint of violet. Ceylon is fine if not too light. cant affor real burma but most are too dark and navy for my taste anyway. i would prefer unheated butif the perfect stone in every other way was presented and was heated i dont care. a mediocre unheated stone is of no interest...........

 

[kenny]

Bgray, I like the silky Kashmir look too and a touch of violet appeals to me.
Lucky us, I think violet lowers the price - but it also lowers the price if we sell.
I suspect the most desirable investment stone would posses only the most widely agreed-to properties, which would mean no violet.

Question for experts: Since Bgray is considering heat-treated sapphires, is the color of heat treated sapphires permanent or could the heat experienced during setting further change the color?

 

[chrono]

The heat treatment of sapphires is permanent and stable. The process of setting a stone doesn’t require the use of a torch unless resizing or something else is being done at the same time. In addition, the temperature of the torch is a lot lower than that used during the heat treatment process.

 

[T L]

I wonder if Beagles can be trained to sniff out diffusion treated stones the way they sniff out bedbugs

Or deceptive sellers that like to sell with only their own in house "lab certification."

 

[kenny]

In house certification is a contradiction of terms.

Even GIA does not call their reports a certification.

 

[VapidLapid]

In house certification is a contradiction of terms.

Even GIA does not call their reports a certification.

In house certification might just as well be from the out house

 

[kenny]

In house certification is a contradiction of terms.
Even GIA does not call their reports a certification.

In house certification might just as well be from the out house

Hahha.
Here they are getting their In House Certifications from the Out House...

 

[movie zombie]

bgray, there are a lot of suggestions within this thread for sapphire vendors. do a search also. and check the vendor list provided in a thread at the top of the color stone forum. you cannot select a stone by picture. educate yourself by seeing as many as you can: jewelry stores, gem events, museums, etc. and since you're looking at blue sapphires, read richard wise's SECRETS OF THE GEM TRADE among other books. am i saying buy from him? no, TL, i'm not. i'm saying the man has made blue sapphires his life's passion and you can learn a lot from him by reading his book and looking at his website. and, please, if you want opinions re stones you are looking at, start your own thread: it will make it easier for responders to be direct to you. give us an idea of your budget and your use of the stone as well. but please let us help you in your very own thread.

mz

 

[T L]

bgray, there are a lot of suggestions within this thread for sapphire vendors. do a search also. and check the vendor list provided in a thread at the top of the color stone forum. you cannot select a stone by picture. educate yourself by seeing as many as you can: jewelry stores, gem events, museums, etc. and since you're looking at blue sapphires, read richard wise's SECRETS OF THE GEM TRADE among other books. am i saying buy from him? no, TL, i'm not. i'm saying the man has made blue sapphires his life's passion and you can learn a lot from him by reading his book and looking at his website. and, please, if you want opinions re stones you are looking at, start your own thread: it will make it easier for responders to be direct to you. give us an idea of your budget and your use of the stone as well. but please let us help you in your very own thread.

mz

I agree with you MZ, one should go looking at fine specimens of sapphires, and I have no doubt that Richard Wise has some beautiful ones in his inventory. I am not saying you should not buy from Richard Wise. I am saying that one should make an educated purchase and shop around. You should try to get to see some at a museum or at a store that carries fine ones. However, shopping online is all we have to see a wide variety in this cyber market, and I do think it helps to look online.

 

[kenny]

bgray, ... if you want opinions re stones you are looking at, start your own thread: it will make it easier for responders to be direct to you. give us an idea of your budget and your use of the stone as well. but please let us help you in your very own thread.

mz

I do not mind sharing the thread with bgray.
In fact I prefer it.
We are looking for similar things so why follow two thread insteads of one?

My 2 cents.

 

[movie zombie]

1-her original request for info got lost for a period of time.
2-easy for responders to lose track of which person responding to, especially when pictures are involved.
3-tradition here at PS to start one's own thread for one's own search.

your thread, your preference.

mz

 

[vinkalmann]

I wonder if Beagles can be trained to sniff out diffusion treated stones the way they sniff out bedbugs

Nice...

 

[kenny]

MZ, you make good points.

I've expressed my opinion so it is bgray's call.
I've never subscribed to the "my thread" mentality, and I do not at all mind what everyone calls a threadjack.
I think of all threads as unfolding conversations that are just community property, but that's just me.
I know I'm in the minority.

 

[vinkalmann]

does anyone have a reputable source for sapphires?

Don't consider the NSC to be not reputable based on the comments of a few people on the board. For every negative posting there are many positive postings about the company. Read the reviews and make up your own mind. Any stone that is over 1 carat and size and that doesn't have a 3rd party certification will be sent out for one at the customers request. I would *guess* that they don't do this for every stone in an effort to maximize profits. I'll bet a majority of their sales are to people that don't even know to ask for a cert so they might as well save the $200, who knows?

At the end of the day, if you see something there you like, you can have it certed (if it's not already) and you can look at it before committing to buy, I'm not sure what the NSC naysayers are really looking for. I would guess most of them have never even dealt with them directly.

That being said, definitely shop around and take your time, NSC is only one of many options you could choose.

 

[movie zombie]

I think of all threads as unfolding conversations that are just community property, but that's just me.
I know I'm in the minority.

this thread has certainly been an unfolding conversation!

mz

 

[T L]

does anyone have a reputable source for sapphires?

Don't consider the NSC to be not reputable based on the comments of a few people on the board. For every negative posting there are many positive postings about the company. Read the reviews and make up your own mind. Any stone that is over 1 carat and size and that doesn't have a 3rd party certification will be sent out for one at the customers request. I would *guess* that they don't do this for every stone in an effort to maximize profits. I'll bet a majority of their sales are to people that don't even know to ask for a cert so they might as well save the $200, who knows?

At the end of the day, if you see something there you like, you can have it certed (if it's not already) and you can look at it before committing to buy, I'm not sure what the NSC naysayers are really looking for. I would guess most of them have never even dealt with them directly.

That being said, definitely shop around and take your time, NSC is only one of many options you could choose.

My issue with NSC is the fact that they were recently caught doctoring photos of pairs on their website, and the fact they will not provide an AGL on expensive sapphires. I posted a link on a prior page on the AGTA, in there it talks about the high quality of the AGL for colored gems. They have not provided any information regarding their statement that the AGL has a bad reputation (have they Kenny?). It would be nice if they would expand on that. I for one do not trust in house grading and I think it is a conflict of interest. Why also, did they remove so many videos of stones on their website. Information is knowledge, and that was a bit disconcerting. That being said, I do think they have a wide variety of sapphires.

Also, Michael, the president of NSC, has posted on this board, and he has come off with less than professional attitude.

 

[kenny]

TL, I have not heard anything from NSC beyond what was said to me during our one phone conversation. - they have my email.

You, or anyone, are free to call them as a customer interested in a stone with a substantial price and ask why it does not have an AGL report.

 

[T L]

TL, I have not heard anything from NSC beyond what was said to me during our one phone conversation. - they have my email.

You, or anyone, are free to call them as a customer interested in a stone with a substantial price and ask why it does not have an AGL report.

They had a spokesperson that dropped into visit Pricescope. She made a quick appearance, and we never heard from her again. I would welcome her, or any NSC person to also give their reasons in this thread. Stating that other certs are sufficient, is not a good enough reason, as AGL is the only lab that provides the quality of color (see AGTA link I provided). I don't want someone from NSC telling me it's a great sapphire (especially if I'm a novice), but I want an origin report and a quality report from an independent highly reputable lab. For example, for the price of the Madagascar sapphire that bgray posted, I would be hard pressed to pay $7K/ct for a stone with just an overall rating of "Good" on AGL's report.

 

[vinkalmann]

I don't want someone from NSC telling me it's a great sapphire (especially if I'm a novice), but I want an origin report and a quality report from an independent highly reputable lab. For example, for the price of the Madagascar sapphire that bgray posted, I would be hard pressed to pay $7K/ct for a stone with just an overall rating of "Good" on AGL's report.

This is confusing to me. Are you saying that you purchase stones based on the color grading that comes from a lab? Certainly you must make up your own mind by having the stone sent to you and look at it in real life? GRS (a reputable lab by from what I've read) lists color on their certs, but what is this really worth. My first sapphire I purchased was listed as cornflower blue, but what does this really mean? GRS cornflower blue is different than AGL cornflower blue. Is one the better judge? Who knows...

What are you hoping to gain from saying that the cert must be from AGL and nowhere else, the color grading, the origin, the fact that the stone is unadulterated? Purchasing a stone based on someone's subjective opinion of color doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[T L]

I don't want someone from NSC telling me it's a great sapphire (especially if I'm a novice), but I want an origin report and a quality report from an independent highly reputable lab. For example, for the price of the Madagascar sapphire that bgray posted, I would be hard pressed to pay $7K/ct for a stone with just an overall rating of "Good" on AGL's report.

This is confusing to me. Are you saying that you purchase stones based on the color grading that comes from a lab? Certainly you must make up your own mind by having the stone sent to you and look at it in real life? GRS (a reputable lab by from what I've read) lists color on their certs, but what is this really worth. My first sapphire I purchased was listed as cornflower blue, but what does this really mean? GRS cornflower blue is different than AGL cornflower blue. Is one the better judge? Who knows...

What are you hoping to gain from saying that the cert must be from AGL and nowhere else, the color grading, the origin, the fact that the stone is unadulterated? Purchasing a stone based on someone's subjective opinion of color doesn't make any sense to me.

That's why I don't like using metaphors such as "cornflower blue." I don't have any idea what it means. AGL gives a quantitative analysis of the gem based on it's comprehensive database of colored gems. I welcome you to look at AGL's website for more information. As I have stated before in this forum, I don't like GRS because they do use these metaphors like "pigeon blood red", "cornflower blue". AGL judges tone, saturation and hue in percentages and gives quantitative information that means something to me instead of "fantasy verbiage." I find that GRS's notes on color help the vendor more than the buyer.

 

[Harriet]

TL,

1. The NSC's having committed unsavoury acts does not entail that their entire inventory is dross. I saw a stunning Kashmir that they had/have. Adducing Arnstein's behaviour as reason to boycott the company makes for a fallacious argument.

2. For the love of science, please stop scaremongering with respect to treatment. You recently raised the spectre that someone's blue sapphire (circa 1920s) was BE-diffused. The treatment was not even in existence then!

3. There are other reputable laboratories besides AGL. Gubelin is one.

Thank you.

 

[Harriet]

bGray,
If you would like me to accompany you to the NSC to view the stone, I would be willing to do so. To pre-empt accusations of 'shilling,' I will NOT introduce you to my sources. I am happy lending my 'eye,' for what it is worth. If you are interested, let's discuss on a separate thread.

 

[Nashville]

bGray,
If you would like me to accompany you to the NSC to view the stone, I would be willing to do so.

We should do a colored stone field trip