Buying from CeylonSapphireGems: An expensive mistake

[Cerulean]

Little late here in this conversation, but as I wrote before, never use a bank transfer. Always use PayPal.

Every truly dedicated gemstone dealer in Sri Lanka to the west has someone in another country, a relative or good friend who will proxy the Paypal account for them. If they don’t, run! They know how we do business in the west. Thusly you have a record of it. A third-party arbitrator, and a lot more protection. Nothing is full proof, but Paypal is the best way to do business with any country you’re buying from over the internet, including your home country. If the vendor cries about the 4.99% invoice fee, offer to pay that. Make sure you get an invoice to be protected.

I just can't emphasize this more.

Yes this is a good call. I have fortunately been able to use PayPal for every overseas transaction. For my biggest purchase, it was to a friend/colleague.

 

[fredflintstone]

Just to chime in.. Maybe I can help clear up a few misunderstandings!



The rules that enable private banks to arbitrarily stop any outgoing wire transfers to other countries are very recent. Sending a wire out even as late as two months ago wasn't even in question - and it still isn't at all times, it merely depends on the circumstances.

It isn't wealth creation or anything similar, it's just that the country has a runaway foreign debt problem that has been bad enough for years and has now finally gotten to the point where the government imposed further restrictions on the private sector to try and service their own obligations. It was being done to prop up the very shaky and overpriced Sri Lankan rupee for years, but it got worse recently due to Covid-related forex deficits from tourism shutdowns which then spilled over into import/export controls. It's still a few years away from Cyprus in 2013 though.



Quite a few people have PayPal, foreign bank accounts or trading partners/companies they rely on when it comes to refunds. The majority of the serious dealers do, at least, so the unfortunate Sri Lankan forex rules don't really apply and painting an entire country with the same brush based on Instagram and Facebook may not exactly give you the most accurate portrayal.

To give you an example, a whole bunch of dealers who visit Tucson every year deal with PayPal through a single completely legit B2B company in TX which facilitates incoming and outgoing transfers for a tiny fee (fraction of a percent).

Another major reason people will sometimes run into issues with refunds on social media is because many dealers sell stones they don't actually own - they are stones brokered from the live market daily, not owned stones.

So in such cases, even if the seller is actually completely willing to refund, they know that they won't be able to receive a refund from the person they brokered it from as locally refunds aren't possible at all except for enhancement discrepancies (no heat -> heat is something you can go to the police for). Come to think of it, this isn't unique to Sri Lanka at all, it's actually very common on social media globally.

The correct thing to do in such cases is one of three:
1) state that it isn't your stone (99.9% will not)
2) never offer stones you don't own
3) or understand that you must buy the stone yourself if you do.

Whether that happens depends on the seller, of course.



This is a common misconception stemming from visits to Beruwala, since the town is ethnically homogenous so it's the impression people get. But Beruwala is distribution center. A trade center, if you will, where for the most part African gemstones come into the country.

The mining of gems, the vast majority of which is done in the central-eastern Sabaragamuwa province, has been almost entirely controlled by the majority-population Sinhalese for practically thousands of years - so the majority of dealers (and almost all mine owners) actually live either in the hills or in Colombo, the capital. Various documentaries and travelogues show these differences/peculiarities.

The cultural nuances mentioned here aren't so much due to not being able to say no, as not wanting to say no to potential business. That is individual, not a trait that millions of people share. For anyone thinking differently, I'd encourage you to visit various place in Sri Lanka with plenty of cash on hand and try offering terms that aren't in the seller's favour (like keeping the stone for inspection for a day). See how quickly, easily and often you'll get "no" on the spot. So being forthright (even abrasive!) isn't so much a cultural impossibility in Sri Lanka, more of an economic choice.


In closing... People, generalizing entire countries and in a few cases even continents based on visiting one or two places doesn't help anything. I understand that some generalization is necessary to simplify guidelines for forum members when working with various places abroad and I wouldn't call generalizations on here unhelpful so far, but gem dealers in Sri Lanka, Asia and even the States vary from this:

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/25/08/438B443100000578-4822304-image-a-1_1503645855770.jpg (bonus for those of you who get the reference)

To dealers who have more spare cash and gems than the rest of this thread put together. Burmese generals-style, only completely legal and not tied to exploitation.

So it's just that. The gem trade, like all other businesses, varies; nothing is black or white and there are plenty of dealers who can and will abide by Western business concepts in any given country, just like there are plenty who won't. Some genuinely want to but can't, some don't want to at all and will rather deal with visiting locals or Chinese buyers who adapt to local rules. And some can and do. It's like everywhere else really, one size doesn't fit all.

Well wrote. I could not agree more.

 

[Spring Day]

Little late here in this conversation, but as I wrote before, never use a bank transfer. Always use PayPal.

Every truly dedicated gemstone dealer in Sri Lanka to the west has someone in another country, a relative or good friend who will proxy the Paypal account for them. If they don’t, run! They know how we do business in the west. Thusly you have a record of it. A third-party arbitrator, and a lot more protection. Nothing is full proof, but Paypal is the best way to do business with any country you’re buying from over the internet, including your home country. If the vendor cries about the 4.99% invoice fee, offer to pay that. Make sure you get an invoice to be protected.

I just can't emphasize this more.

This kind of "advice" at the current situation that @AnastasiaBeaverhausen is in does not help at all. If anything, it is a passive aggressive way of victim blaming.

 

[fredflintstone]

This kind of "advice" at the current situation that @AnastasiaBeaverhausen is in does not help at all. If anything, it is a passive aggressive way of victim blaming.

I'm just trying to help people for future buys.


I never said a derogatory thing. All I did was say, " but as I wrote before." If you take offense to that it was not meant that way, but it is what I wrote a few months back, again, just trying to help people from my experience as a past dealer.

It is not my fault this happened. But I can try to prevent it from happening in the future.


Whether people take my advice is their own decision, but don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[Pinkmartini87]

Hope this story has a good ending!

 

[arkieb1]

Firstly thank you @AnastasiaBeaverhausen for posting your experiences with dealing with gem dealers in Sri Lanka, I hope that you do get most if not all of your money back.

I guess I see both sides of all of the arguments going on here. This should be a lesson to ALL Pricescope members why you should not purchase anything from vendors in Sri Lanka, China, India and other countries unless those vendors have glowing reviews, good refund policies and good feedback from other PS members.

Most vendors in other countries photo shop their photos, they use pen lights, artificial lighting and various other tricks to amp up the colour of their stones. Most labs including AGL and GIA any many many others do not have the same definition of "cornflower blue" that most PS members do. Certified Cornflower blue even to the best labs is frequently way darker than most of you would ever want or accept.

On dealing with vendors in Sri Lanka which I have done now for well over 10+ years. I have no alignment or relationship with the vendor the OP mentions in fact I think I myself have purchased a sapphire that was only a few hundred from the guy, got it made the observation it was way darker and less saturated in person, shrugged my shoulders took the loss, and went I'll probably never buy anything else from that vendor again.

Most of these guys don't give refunds. They don't do it because they are bad people they do it because they legally don't have things like Paypal in Sri Lanka because of their government and it is also exceptionally difficult to get a cut gemstone returned to them because as soon as they pick it up they then have to pay their government a heap of taxes and duties on it regardless of if it came from them in the first place or not.

Many of these guys also sell one stone or stones and spend the money as soon as they get paid to feed their families and buy other stones so often they simply don't have the cash on hand to issue and refund.

In short what I am saying is their whole way of doing business isn't the same as the way vendors do business in the Western World. I have purchased tens of thousands worth of stones from dealers in Sri Lanka with the knowledge if I don't like something I won't get a refund on any of it, most of you should be made aware of that.

I too blame this vendor if he said he would issue a refund if the buyer didn't like the stone. No vendor should promise something they can't deliver and this guy should be blacklisted for handing out other clients personal information alone.

Having said that, no PSer should think they can cut corners and save money purchasing from overseas vendors and magically expect them to conform with a set of unrealistic return policies the vendors themselves simply do not have, or because of red tape in their countries that legally they simply cannot provide.

The moral of the story if you aren't willing to lose the money don't buy stones from overseas vendors you don't know.

 

[fredflintstone]

Firstly thank you @AnastasiaBeaverhausen for posting your experiences with dealing with gem dealers in Sri Lanka, I hope that you do get most if not all of your money back.

I guess I see both sides of all of the arguments going on here. This should be a lesson to ALL Pricescope members why you should not purchase anything from vendors in Sri Lanka, China, India and other countries unless those vendors have glowing reviews, good refund policies and good feedback from other PS members.

Most vendors in other countries photo shop their photos, they use pen lights, artificial lighting and various other tricks to amp up the colour of their stones. Most labs including AGL and GIA any many many others do not have the same definition of "cornflower blue" that most PS members do. Certified Cornflower blue even to the best labs is frequently way darker than most of you would ever want or accept.

On dealing with vendors in Sri Lanka which I have done now for well over 10+ years. I have no alignment or relationship with the vendor the OP mentions in fact I think I myself have purchased a sapphire that was only a few hundred from the guy, got it made the observation it was way darker and less saturated in person, shrugged my shoulders took the loss, and went I'll probably never buy anything else from that vendor again.

Most of these guys don't give refunds. They don't do it because they are bad people they do it because they legally don't have things like Paypal in Sri Lanka because of their government and it is also exceptionally difficult to get a cut gemstone returned to them because as soon as they pick it up they then have to pay their government a heap of taxes and duties on it regardless of if it came from them in the first place or not.

Many of these guys also sell one stone or stones and spend the money as soon as they get paid to feed their families and buy other stones so often they simply don't have the cash on hand to issue and refund.

In short what I am saying is their whole way of doing business isn't the same as the way vendors do business in the Western World. I have purchased tens of thousands worth of stones from dealers in Sri Lanka with the knowledge if I don't like something I won't get a refund on any of it, most of you should be made aware of that.

I too blame this vendor if he said he would issue a refund if the buyer didn't like the stone. No vendor should promise something they can't deliver and this guy should be blacklisted for handing out other clients personal information alone.

Having said that, no PSer should think they can cut corners and save money purchasing from overseas vendors and magically expect them to conform with a set of unrealistic return policies the vendors themselves simply do not have, or because of red tape in their countries that legally they simply cannot provide.

The moral of the story if you aren't willing to lose the money don't buy stones from overseas vendors you don't know.

While I absolutely agree with much of what you said, I have sent many stones back to Sri Lanka and other countries, Pakistan, Thailand, Afghanistan, Vietnam, to name a few and have been refunded or exchanged for another stone(s), or even partially refunded and kept the stone(s) for sale.

The thing is when a person sends a gemstone back, never declare it as a gemstone. You declare it as documents (use a lot of paper, LOL!), mineral specimen, commercial sample, anything but "gemstone." Never declare it for more than $30.00. Send it back the cheapest way you can as not to draw suspicion. I'm mean when you are sending back FedEx at $2200.00 or more for an item declared as $30.00, it raises huge suspicions. I always sent back 1st class international, United States Postal Service and always used PayPal (that is when PayPal became available to use). Many Sri Lankans have proxy PayPal accounts with other people living in Thailand or other countries. They do not want to screw that up, so they will refund to keep the PayPal account running in good standing, because if many did not have that proxy PayPal account, they would lose much income as many will only use PayPal to pay them if not right there buying in person.

Of course, I was a gemstone dealer for 40 years and these vendors knew if they stiffed me, they would not have my business anymore. Many of these vendors are very professional. But I cannot say that I have not had problems with a few, but as soon as I threatened to file a claim with PayPal, they always magically came around to my way of doing things, albeit sometimes it took awhile to get all my money back.

Now, all the above may sound shady, but that is how business is done in the east. But really, it is no different than the majority of my customers in first world countries that always wanted me to declare a much lesser value on their gemstones because of super high VAT and customs charges. Also, many first world countries do not allow “precious gemstones” to be imported without a license, or without a certain way of shipping, so there you are again declaring the gemstone as something other than what it is. That is the way business is done most the time.

Can’t say I agree with “most” of these vendors photo shop, many don’t. But they are very close to the equator and stones just look more vivid in that latitude outside. As far as artificial light, we see gemstones in artificial light every day, incandescent, fluorescent, LED, CFL, all these lights are common indoor lighting. Yes, a lightbox is a great tool to photograph gemstones, but I’ve seen the same gemstones look better outside of a lightbox, but the light was not sufficient for using a camera. The human eye is so much more superior than a camera lens.

But it is true, when you are dealing with gemstone dealers from third world countries, you are rolling the dice in hoping that a better price will get you the gemstone of your heart’s desire. There are literally 1000’s of them out there all very, very, hungry and many do sale subpar stones that do look great (yes, photoshop) to the unsuspecting consumer that does not have a seasoned eye, no doubt about it. So, beware and in all sincerity, if you are not seasoned collector or in the trade, you surely are better off paying more from a first world dealer. I cannot lie, your security of you hard earned money is better ff spent with them…most of the time.

 

[Burmesedaze]

Not jumping into the discussion.

Just sending good wishes and thoughts to OP. Hoping for a satisfactory ending to this where you get the money back soon, in full. Everyone's money is hard-earned!

 

[fussykiki]

Any updates?

 

[icy_jade]

Any updates?

Wondering about the same. Hope for a good outcome…

 

[Sprinkles&Stones]

Hey @AnastasiaBeaverhausen , hope everything is okay. Any resolutions?

 

[blingmeupscotty]

I made it to page 5.. and all I could say to myself is "what kind of tom fool f***ery was all of this".. JMFC.. I hope you get your money back. ALL of it.

 

[shrimpsiumai]

There are good sellers and bad sellers in every country. My jeweler in Hong Kong is super good and will always fix things for me until I am satisfied. There are also some jewelers I stopped going due to their services level. Hard to conclude whether a seller is honest or not based on their countries.

To be honest, as a Chinese, I also don’t like to deal with people in mainland China. Hard to tell if they are telling the truth or not.

Which seller do you use in HK? I would like to take a look.

 

[shrimpsiumai]

So how does one prevent this from happening?

Paypal? Do they actually help you in these situations?

Credit card? Does credit card buyers protection even help with these transactions?

 

[Ionysis]

Seller says full refunds were given. OP never came back to update - leaving sellers reputation in tatters.

 

[yssie]

Seller says full refunds were given. OP never came back to update - leaving sellers reputation in tatters.

Quite the contrary: Seller’s actions and behaviour have earned him exactly the reputation he deserves irrespective of specifics of outcome. Some of your contributions to this situation and your commitment to defending the indefensible beggar belief.

 

[adlgel]

Seller says full refunds were given. OP never came back to update - leaving sellers reputation in tatters.

I agree with @yssie. Ultimately providing a refund after all of that, while better than not providing the refund, is the least he could do and doesn't really undo all of the awful things about that buying experience for the OP.

 

[lovedogs]

Quite the contrary: Seller’s actions and behaviour have earned him exactly the reputation he deserves irrespective of specifics of outcome. Some of your contributions to this situation and your commitment to defending the indefensible beggar belief.

Exactly.

 

[Mreader]

Because she didn't update my belief is that it is still unresolved.

 

[Cerulean]

Honestly it doesn’t matter if she eventually got a refund. The whole situation was absolutely unprofessional. I cannot imagine purchasing from this vendor, ever. If you want good prices from an international vendor there are plenty of others.

The fact that they casually shared her personal information to multiple COMPLETE strangers is so outrageous it is utterly indefensible. And that’s not even touching everything else that happened…

 

[HS4S_2]

Honestly it doesn’t matter if she eventually got a refund. The whole situation was absolutely unprofessional. I cannot imagine purchasing from this vendor, ever. If you want good prices from an international vendor there are plenty of others.

The fact that they casually shared her personal information to multiple COMPLETE strangers is so outrageous it is utterly indefensible. And that’s not even touching everything else that happened…

100 percent agree.

 

[Ionysis]

I haven’t disputed any of that. But I still think there’s an enormous difference between that and theft / fraud - which would be the case if the stone was sent back and money not returned.

 

[yssie]

I completely fail to understand how you think it’s remotely appropriate for a vendor to be sharing details about his transaction with another customer with you. This is, in fact, one of the continuing concerns raised within this thread.

You choosing to (again) share information here on PS that (A) is of no concern to you, and that (B) you should have no insight into just makes this miscreant vendor look worse, frankly.

 

[lovedogs]

I haven’t disputed any of that. But I still think there’s an enormous difference between that and theft / fraud - which would be the case if the stone was sent back and money not returned.

I am deeply confused by your continued defense of this vendor. He gave her PERSONAL INFORMATION to a ton of strangers, took MONTHS to refund (if he ever did), and generally lied the entire time. Whether she got her money back or not is immaterial to how terrible this vendor is. His reputation is in the toilet due to his own actions, period. He acted terribly, and how his reputation is (rightfully) damaged.

 

[Ionysis]

I am deeply confused by your continued defense of this vendor. He gave her PERSONAL INFORMATION to a ton of strangers, took MONTHS to refund (if he ever did), and generally lied the entire time. Whether she got her money back or not is immaterial to how terrible this vendor is. His reputation is in the toilet due to his own actions, period. He acted terribly, and how his reputation is (rightfully) damaged.

And is that the same as not getting your money back at all? That is the only point I’m making here. If you’re going to write on a forum about a vendor then write the whole story.

And that isn’t specific only to this thread. We see it a lot on here - posters don’t come and update the conclusion of a 10 page thread. I feel it’s unfair to only tell part of the experience.

I know people have a life outside PS but it drives me crazy when we don’t hear the ending - not even just on vendor complaints. The worst is on the threads about “what stone is this?” and they send it to a lab and…. I’m like well, was it a chunk of quartz or a diamond TELL US DAMMIT!!!

 

[AnastasiaBeaverhausen]

Seller says full refunds were given. OP never came back to update - leaving sellers reputation in tatters.

I’m grumpy because it’s late, there’s positive cases of COVID popping up at work every other day, and now you’re pissing me off.

”FULL REFUNDS”??? Dude, check your sources. Clearly the payment either you or one of your friends were supposed to send today never came through, cuz Ceylon still owes me money!

Here’s what happened since I last posted:

8/25 - Promised I would get full refund within 2 days.
8/27 - No $
8/29 - Almost 1/3 of what Ceylon was willing to refund me was sent to me! Sidenote: the $ was sent from a very familiar-looking account that’s not from @Module or from some dude in Russia. Draw your own conclusions. Anyways, Ceylon promised the balance will be sent by 8/30.
8/30 - No $.
9/17 - Promises the same client from 8/29 (let’s call them Client L) will send me another third on 9/18. Balance would be settled on 9/22.
9/18 - No $.
9/19 - $ from another client is sent to me. And yeah….I know it’s one of his repeat clients from PS because he’s given me that person’s personal info previously.
9/22 - No $.
9/29 - I ask Ceylon if he’s seriously going to just keep waiting for his repeat clients from PS to buy stuff from him and then have them send me their money. He says he has other clients, but he hasn’t done any business in the last 10 days (ha). I ask him again to just send the balance through his black market agent and eat whatever loss he might take since the amount of $ he has to convert is much lower now. He refuses. Asks for another week.
10/6 - No $.
10/7 - Says client will send me balance on 10/11 or 10/12.
10/12 - No $. You, @Ionysis, post on PS wrongly accusing me of having received a full refund.

Seriously, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: quit trying to cover for CeylonSapphireGems. You just keep making things worse for him. At the very least, get your stories straight before stirring the pot again.

I was hoping to wait til this whole situation is resolved before I come back and post a quick update. But oh well, here we are. It’ll be interesting to see if I’ll ever get the rest of my money back now that this post is up.

Anywho…I can’t thank everyone enough for your support. I’m so sorry I didn’t post an update sooner. I promise if I ever get that last bit of money, I’ll let y’all know ASAP.

P.S. Please forgive any typos and the inconsistent use of past and present tense.

 

[T L]

So how does one prevent this from happening?

Paypal? Do they actually help you in these situations?

Credit card? Does credit card buyers protection even help with these transactions?

Would love to know this as well.

 

[Rfisher]

I would say inconceivable.
But after so far into this story, unfortunately it is conceivable you still haven’t gotten all your money back yet @AnastasiaBeaverhausen
I am so sorry.

 

[Module]

And is that the same as not getting your money back at all? That is the only point I’m making here. If you’re going to write on a forum about a vendor then write the whole story.

And that isn’t specific only to this thread. We see it a lot on here - posters don’t come and update the conclusion of a 10 page thread. I feel it’s unfair to only tell part of the experience.

I know people have a life outside PS but it drives me crazy when we don’t hear the ending - not even just on vendor complaints. The worst is on the threads about “what stone is this?” and they send it to a lab and…. I’m like well, was it a chunk of quartz or a diamond TELL US DAMMIT!!!

Well well well, I can't help but believe the last paragraph is intended to me. More than anyone else, I want to know what I got. AGL had the stone since Sep and their current turnaround time is 4 to 5 weeks, I'm waiting for the call from the lab every day!

 

[Mreader]

I would say inconceivable.
But after so far into this story, unfortunately it is conceivable you still haven’t gotten all your money back yet @AnastasiaBeaverhausen
I am so sorry.

I’m sorry too @AnastasiaBeaverhausen . I was bothered for you when a few people came back here asking for updates. I knew that you probably hadn’t gotten your money back and that you would probably update once you did. It reminded me of a few years back when my husband lost his job and every time somebody saw him he would be asked if he found one. Duh he would have said so if he had gotten a new one! It was just painful. So again, I’m sorry it’s still unresolved and it was dredged up again.