Buying Rubies in Myanmar - need help

[LoversKites]

I know the basics of what to look for - traffic light red, silk inclusions, lack of round bubbles indicating treatment, brilliant cut etc. but even then I still think I would need the help of lab testing to confirm these.
What I fear most in a foreign country is to be denied a refund even though they state they are happy to offer one before the purchase. If they say "oh you've changed the ruby around with a fake one after you bought it" then technically speaking they've got grounds to deny you the refund right? It's your word against theirs, how do you combat this problem?

The guys who've spent a lifetime selling fakes to tourists looking for a 'deal' will be THRILLED to hear you "know the basics".

You combat this problem by NOT buying expensive gems from people you don't know, in a city you don't know, where there's no such thing as a return policy and you have no surety at all. Anyone who's happy to sell you a fake and swear it's untreated will also be happy to keep your money and swear that they've never seen you before in their lives. The lab report won't help you after money changes hands, or if the lab you decide on is owned by the seller's cousin, or if the police station where you file a report is funded in part by contributions from solid citizens like the dealer who scammed you.

So where DO you buy expensive gems then? I've heard a lot of "don'ts" in this thread, but not a lot of "do's", apart from getting a qualification in gemmology and studying gems for years. I'm sure many tourists who buy expensive gems out there don't go through all that, yet they still manage to buy properly. Are you saying most of the gems these rich people bought are fakes as well?
There must be a way for non-experts out there to buy, and that's what I'm looking for.

I don't feel like I know much about gems yet but even so I'm unsure about that statement, and it depends on how you define 'properly' buying gems. I can imagine A LOT of tourists who thought they knew what they were getting into have been scammed out of a lot of money. With or without realizing it. It's just not worth the risk.

As for how a non-expert can buy a fine gem, you can contact various trusted vendors to see if they can help you. I know this isn't the route you want to take because it doesn't involve the travelling but it's safer and has been done before so I'm mentioning it. You have an expert's eye looking for you and it will save you studying gemology for the next few years of your life

We all know a PSer who bought a fine sapphire through Richard Hughes, here is her thread with the story and pictures-
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-dream-sapphire-found.172133/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-dream-sapphire-found.172133/[/URL]

There are a number of vendors who can help you source what you want within your budget and specs using their years of expertise. Ed from Wildfish and Richard Hughes come to mind.

As for ruby prices, the nicest one I saw for sale was just over 2ct, untreated and Burmese, clean with great colour for I believe 50k? Now it's sold so I can't see the exact price. I also believe it was discounted during his retirement sale. http://www.rwwise.com/products/id%7C1037

Good luck.

 

[cm366]

I know the basics of what to look for - traffic light red, silk inclusions, lack of round bubbles indicating treatment, brilliant cut etc. but even then I still think I would need the help of lab testing to confirm these.
What I fear most in a foreign country is to be denied a refund even though they state they are happy to offer one before the purchase. If they say "oh you've changed the ruby around with a fake one after you bought it" then technically speaking they've got grounds to deny you the refund right? It's your word against theirs, how do you combat this problem?

The guys who've spent a lifetime selling fakes to tourists looking for a 'deal' will be THRILLED to hear you "know the basics".

You combat this problem by NOT buying expensive gems from people you don't know, in a city you don't know, where there's no such thing as a return policy and you have no surety at all. Anyone who's happy to sell you a fake and swear it's untreated will also be happy to keep your money and swear that they've never seen you before in their lives. The lab report won't help you after money changes hands, or if the lab you decide on is owned by the seller's cousin, or if the police station where you file a report is funded in part by contributions from solid citizens like the dealer who scammed you.

So where DO you buy expensive gems then? I've heard a lot of "don'ts" in this thread, but not a lot of "do's", apart from getting a qualification in gemmology and studying gems for years. I'm sure many tourists who buy expensive gems out there don't go through all that, yet they still manage to buy properly. Are you saying most of the gems these rich people bought are fakes as well?
There must be a way for non-experts out there to buy, and that's what I'm looking for.

Generally, I buy them from vendors I can trust, with business licenses and reputations to lose if they misrepresent their material or defraud their customers. There's a long (but not all-inclusive) list of vendors who fit that description at the top of this forum. Occasionally, I buy from someone not on that list, who seems to have interesting material and/or comes well recommended. I keep those purchases small and see what the material's like, see if we can trust each other, and go from there.

Think of this like buying any other luxury goods... Hermes bags, say, or Ferraris. You can't go to the factory and get them for cheap because there's much more demand than supply, and buying them from some random fellow on the street is almost guaranteed to get you a knockoff rather than the genuine article. If you want the real deal, you have the choice of buying it from a recognized vendor at full retail price, getting to know the product well enough and spending enough time to identify and pick one up at an outlet store or from a friend a little cheaper (AKA the Pricescope option), or developing an encyclopaedic knowledge and a worldwide network of contacts to get the best access at the best prices. There just isn't a fantastic bargain waiting on Mogok rubies, because for a hundred years there have been people scouring the globe to ferret them out and outbidding each other when they're found.

What makes you think that tourists routinely make expensive gem purchases and "buy properly"? That's certainly not my experience, or, I suspect, the experience of anyone else on this forum. What I have seen, time and again, is tourists buying overpriced, poor quality material, or downright glass, and believing that they've gotten a fantastic, world-beating deal. They routinely post here with 400ct opaque dyed 'emeralds or 'rubies'. Even experienced jewelers and cutters with the years of experience you mention occasionally end up buying fakes.

 

[chrono]

I have sources where I can get "expensive" gem a bit cheaper.
You need a few years experience, have to educate yourself, make mistakes and need some good connections.

This...OR you buy from vendors who've proven themselves as honest, trustworthy and have a good return/refund policy. Such vendors will allow you to look at the stone in person for a period of several days, and if you don't like it, you can return the ruby for a full refund. If you like to travel, how about AJS who is based in Bangkok?

African but comes with an AGL lab report proving that it is unheated.
http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/ruby-1.54-carats.html

African as well but it is unheated (Item 542, towards the end of the page)
http://www.gemfix.com/ruby.html#thumb

Unheated Burmese but you'll have to get pricing through the jeweller of your choice (and probably overlook the large window)
http://www.palagems.com/php/db_search.php?action=gemdetail&inventory_number=21005

A nice selection of heated and unheated Burmese rubies
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/rubyfs.html

 

[lawnmower79]

@LoversKites: Yeah I saw that 2ct one a while back, if I had that kind of money I would've bought it Your method seems to be the most reliable at the moment but the online communication would be a lot of work, and I never buy something without seeing it in front of my face, so that's another hurdle.

@cm366: The difference between top gems and Ferraris is that people look at the Ferrari and they know instantly that it's a Ferrari, chances of it being fake are extremely low (attempts to fake luxury cars have been seen in China). You don't need a degree or much knowledge about cars to confirm what you're getting for your money. With gems you do, because prices are not set and quality is not guaranteed until you test it from a few labs. I guess the story about tourists buying overseas probably stem from rich Chinese who splurge on gems without caring much about getting a good deal because it hardly makes a dent in their wallets, hence they care less.

@Chrono: Yup I had a look at those already. I always wondered how palagems work, they've got a very good range but I got no idea how to buy those gems they list on their website. Their ordering system seems to be for traders rather than the general public. There's not much info on which retailers actually source from palagems and sell them. Do these retailers have their own websites or do you have to visit them in person?

 

[chrono]

Lawnmower,
Online buying with the vendors we tend to recommend on Pricescope DO allow you to see the stone in front of your face. That is the review period. If you don't like it, you return the ruby and get 100% of your money back, minus the shipping fee/cost. In order to lessen the risk/chance of returns, we tend to request additional pictures or photographs, especially on pricier gems.

With Pala, you need to talk to the jeweller/vendor of your choice and ask them to contact Pala. Pala will deal with your jeweller/vendor directly and tell them the trade price. Your jeweller/vendor than adds the necessary markup (some profit, legwork and time involved and shipping costs back and forth), then gives you a price they are willing to sell for their time and effort. Once that is agreed upon, your jeweller/vendor calls in the ruby for you to review. If you don't like it, he will return the ruby on your behalf. The jeweller/vendor essentially acts as the middle person between Pala and you.

 

[lawnmower79]

Lawnmower,
Online buying with the vendors we tend to recommend on Pricescope DO allow you to see the stone in front of your face. That is the review period. If you don't like it, you return the ruby and get 100% of your money back, minus the shipping fee/cost. In order to lessen the risk/chance of returns, we tend to request additional pictures or photographs, especially on pricier gems.

With Pala, you need to talk to the jeweller/vendor of your choice and ask them to contact Pala. Pala will deal with your jeweller/vendor directly and tell them the trade price. Your jeweller/vendor than adds the necessary markup (some profit, legwork and time involved and shipping costs back and forth), then gives you a price they are willing to sell for their time and effort. Once that is agreed upon, your jeweller/vendor calls in the ruby for you to review. If you don't like it, he will return the ruby on your behalf. The jeweller/vendor essentially acts as the middle person between Pala and you.

Thanks Chrono, I might sit down and go through all the advice you guys have given. I still think I need to go overseas to either Thailand or Myanmar to have a look at some stones in person in order to gain some experience. Where I live, there's hardly any gemstone shops in the higher end of the price range and Australia is so far from the rest of the world that even shipping forwards and backwards to and from the US/Europe can add up to over $100 quick. This also makes accessing the gems from Palagems much harder since local jewellers don't really deal in that sort of range.

 

[chrono]

I'm not sure if you saw this way up at the sticky but it's a crash course in evaluating coloured stones. The problem is that slight nuances in colour makes a very big difference in pricing, so you either need a well trained eye or have someone very experienced by your side as you view the rubies.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-to-coloured-gemstone-buying-read-this-first.174284/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-to-coloured-gemstone-buying-read-this-first.174284/[/URL]

This chart might prove useful as a starting point to see the slight differences in colour. However, this chart only shows the red hue (no purple or orange modifiers). Realistically, most rubies have either some purple or orange, which some people can pick out whilst others have a harder time. Not only that, it is more of a challenge when you are only looking at one or two stones because most of our "memory colour" isn't good when there is no master set to compare other rubies to.
http://www.gemewizard.com/newsletters/view_article.php?id=167

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Lawnmower,
Online buying with the vendors we tend to recommend on Pricescope DO allow you to see the stone in front of your face. That is the review period. If you don't like it, you return the ruby and get 100% of your money back, minus the shipping fee/cost. In order to lessen the risk/chance of returns, we tend to request additional pictures or photographs, especially on pricier gems.

With Pala, you need to talk to the jeweller/vendor of your choice and ask them to contact Pala. Pala will deal with your jeweller/vendor directly and tell them the trade price. Your jeweller/vendor than adds the necessary markup (some profit, legwork and time involved and shipping costs back and forth), then gives you a price they are willing to sell for their time and effort. Once that is agreed upon, your jeweller/vendor calls in the ruby for you to review. If you don't like it, he will return the ruby on your behalf. The jeweller/vendor essentially acts as the middle person between Pala and you.

Thanks Chrono, I might sit down and go through all the advice you guys have given. I still think I need to go overseas to either Thailand or Myanmar to have a look at some stones in person in order to gain some experience. Where I live, there's hardly any gemstone shops in the higher end of the price range and Australia is so far from the rest of the world that even shipping forwards and backwards to and from the US/Europe can add up to over $100 quick. This also makes accessing the gems from Palagems much harder since local jewellers don't really deal in that sort of range.

Going to Thailand is going to add up to a lot more than looking at several gems even at $100 per gem.

The problem with looking in Thailand without a reputable source is that you have no idea of exactly what you are looking at, which is detrimental to the educational aspect of your trip. Sure, you can look at several rubies but are you sure they are what they are?

Has anyone news of David Fortier? He was based in Thailand, if I remember correctly, but I haven't had news of him in several years.

 

[lawnmower79]

@Chrono: thx, yeah I had a look at that thread. The colour diagram is nice too but like you said, in real life the red's mixed with other colours so it's harder to tell.

Lawnmower,
Online buying with the vendors we tend to recommend on Pricescope DO allow you to see the stone in front of your face. That is the review period. If you don't like it, you return the ruby and get 100% of your money back, minus the shipping fee/cost. In order to lessen the risk/chance of returns, we tend to request additional pictures or photographs, especially on pricier gems.

With Pala, you need to talk to the jeweller/vendor of your choice and ask them to contact Pala. Pala will deal with your jeweller/vendor directly and tell them the trade price. Your jeweller/vendor than adds the necessary markup (some profit, legwork and time involved and shipping costs back and forth), then gives you a price they are willing to sell for their time and effort. Once that is agreed upon, your jeweller/vendor calls in the ruby for you to review. If you don't like it, he will return the ruby on your behalf. The jeweller/vendor essentially acts as the middle person between Pala and you.

Thanks Chrono, I might sit down and go through all the advice you guys have given. I still think I need to go overseas to either Thailand or Myanmar to have a look at some stones in person in order to gain some experience. Where I live, there's hardly any gemstone shops in the higher end of the price range and Australia is so far from the rest of the world that even shipping forwards and backwards to and from the US/Europe can add up to over $100 quick. This also makes accessing the gems from Palagems much harder since local jewellers don't really deal in that sort of range.

Going to Thailand is going to add up to a lot more than looking at several gems even at $100 per gem.

The problem with looking in Thailand without a reputable source is that you have no idea of exactly what you are looking at, which is detrimental to the educational aspect of your trip. Sure, you can look at several rubies but are you sure they are what they are?

Has anyone news of David Fortier? He was based in Thailand, if I remember correctly, but I haven't had news of him in several years.

Going to Thailand allows you to see hundreds of gems, whether real or not.
Asking for gems to be delivered to you requires you to put some, if not all of the gem's money down. Nobody's gonna send gems to you for free. It also takes several weeks for the gem to arrive, then another several weeks to return the gem. Theoretically you can get a 100% refund but so many things can go wrong it's not worth the risk.

The part about not knowing what I'm looking at, I can say the same about gems delivered to me too. I can't trust that certificate matching the actual gemstone if I'm not an expert. Call me old-fashioned but I like doing business in person, I find it's much faster and more effective too.

 

[cm366]

Where in Australia are you? If you can get to Sydney, you'll see a lot more fine and genuine gems in the Dymocks building or even the QVB than is likely on a trip to Thailand. Don't know the spots in Melbourne, but I'm sure there's something similar...

 

[lawnmower79]

Where in Australia are you? If you can get to Sydney, you'll see a lot more fine and genuine gems in the Dymocks building or even the QVB than is likely on a trip to Thailand. Don't know the spots in Melbourne, but I'm sure there's something similar...

Nope, not Sydney or Melbourne. Closest city is probably Brisbane. Also I'm hunting specifically for untreated Burmese rubies, not heated ones or African ones. I have doubts about whether these things even exist in shops in Australia at all.

 

[eastjavaman]

Untreated and Burmese is difficult enough, add the color of Pigeon Blood, and even more difficult from Mogok only and weigh over 5ct with a high clarity. You are in luck, I have just the thing for you.

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/unheated-burma-ruby-5.46-carats.html

 

[LoversKites]

Untreated and Burmese is difficult enough, add the color of Pigeon Blood, and even more difficult from Mogok only and weigh over 5ct with a high clarity. You are in luck, I have just the thing for you.

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/unheated-burma-ruby-5.46-carats.html

He's not looking for a 5ct.

I'd buy it but it's cut too deep for my tastes

 

[cm366]

Where in Australia are you? If you can get to Sydney, you'll see a lot more fine and genuine gems in the Dymocks building or even the QVB than is likely on a trip to Thailand. Don't know the spots in Melbourne, but I'm sure there's something similar...

Nope, not Sydney or Melbourne. Closest city is probably Brisbane. Also I'm hunting specifically for untreated Burmese rubies, not heated ones or African ones. I have doubts about whether these things even exist in shops in Australia at all.

These guys are on the gold coast:
http://www.calleija.com.au/

Might be worth asking these folks too, both based in Brissie:
http://www.stonesdiamonds.com/index.php
http://www.robertwhitejewellers.com.au/display1.php

If they don't have stones in stock, they can certainly order some in (without laying down money ahead of time) and take a look at them with you. They won't order $200k worth, but even a few genuine stones would give you a much better basis for comparison than you're likely to get browsing bazaars in Thailand. You won't ever be offered a genuine unheated Burmese ruby as a tourist in Thailand - they are just not sitting around waiting for you. What you will be offered is glass, plastic, heated, drilled, filled, oiled, irradiated and maybe the occasional genuine African stone, at a mere 300% markup.

Beyond that, if you're really willing to travel overseas, Sydney should be a breeze! Dymocks has dozens of fine jewellers, some of whom specialize in coloured stones. Call ahead, give them an idea of what you're looking for and what your budget is, and you'll see much more and better material.
http://www.thedymocksbuilding.com.au/directory

While you're there, don't miss Martin & Stein in the QVB - they've got perhaps the finest selection of antique jewellery in Australia, and virtually all of their stones have lab reports or high-quality appraisals.
http://www.martinandstein.com.au/

 

[lawnmower79]

@eastjavaman: yeah that one is nice, if it only had 1 less zero in its price...

@cm366: wow nice finds, thanks! I sort of knew about the ones inside Brisbane Arcade but didn't know you can get them to order in anything for you. The gold coast one looks pretty good, from the prices for the carat sizes listed there they can potentially be real untreated Burmese rubies. Dymocks down in Sydney looks like the best bet, they got a pretty big range. If I ever get the opportunity to go down there I'll definitely check them out.

Got a question: if a gem is set inside a ring, does that make it harder to assess the gem, compared to loose stones, due to the ring blocking the bottom half of the gemstone? Also, if you see a gemstone you really like but it's set in a ring, would jewellers be willing to remove the gem from the ring itself and sell it to you as a loose stone?

 

[lawnmower79]

PS: you guys are good at destroying people's wallets

 

[cm366]

The appraisers can give you a better answer regarding how problematic it can be to assess a stone in a ring (they're mostly over on the RockyTalky part of the forum) if you're looking for a detailed explanation, but yes, it's generally harder and they're more likely to hedge on their evaluations.

Most jewelers will be willing to remove a stone from their ring if you pay them enough. Some won't be willing to, if the piece is an antique or something they've created with a specific vision in mind, or if the stone is fragile, but generally it's not a huge problem. They might charge you a premium if they think you're going to get it set somewhere else, though, and they'll charge for the labour involved in removing the stone and re-setting the ring (or hide it in your cost for the stone). The ladies at Martin and Stein, for example, are willing to sell you the whole ring and then remove the stone for you, but they won't let you purchase the stone alone any more than they'd sell you one leg off of an antique sofa.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Going to Thailand allows you to see hundreds of gems, whether real or not.
Asking for gems to be delivered to you requires you to put some, if not all of the gem's money down. Nobody's gonna send gems to you for free. It also takes several weeks for the gem to arrive, then another several weeks to return the gem. Theoretically you can get a 100% refund but so many things can go wrong it's not worth the risk.

The part about not knowing what I'm looking at, I can say the same about gems delivered to me too. I can't trust that certificate matching the actual gemstone if I'm not an expert. Call me old-fashioned but I like doing business in person, I find it's much faster and more effective too.

The thing is, you are not going to find hundreds of rubies with your specifications, even in Thailand.

 

[lawnmower79]

@cm366: My fears exactly on the evaluation of gems set in rings. The analogy of the leg off an antique sofa brings the point across, I can see reasons not to go down this path.

@Lady_Disdain: My points still stand about viewing gems through mail delivery. As a trader yourself, if you had a few Burmese unheated rubies in stock and I want to see these, would you be willing to send them out without a substantial amount of money down from me? I imagine you'd rather me visit your store in person, right?

 

[eastjavaman]

Untreated and Burmese is difficult enough, add the color of Pigeon Blood, and even more difficult from Mogok only and weigh over 5ct with a high clarity. You are in luck, I have just the thing for you.

http://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/unheated-burma-ruby-5.46-carats.html

He's not looking for a 5ct.

I'd buy it but it's cut too deep for my tastes

Likewise, it's cut too deep for my pocket too

 

[chrono]

You are considered very lucky IF you can find someone who has a few top colour unheated Burmese rubies in stock anywhere in the world. Most vendors will only have 1 or two in stock at best, if they are fortunate enough to snag one in the first place.

 

[PrecisionGem]

LAwnmowerman, it sounds like you have your heart set on going to Burma, despite all the advice, some by people in the trade who really understand this business. You may as an alternative consider going to a major gem show, such as the one Tucson or Hong Kong. There you will be able to see many stones in person, and can be dealing with some more trustworthy people. AGL actually has a lab set up at the Tucson show where you could have the stone tested.

 

[JewelFreak]

Excellent suggestion. The cost of a trip to Hong Kong or even Tucson is better than paying to go to Burma or Thailand AND losing your shirt on a trumped-up stone, which is certain to be all you'd find. You'd probably see more good-quality unheated Burma rubies at one of those shows than in-country anyhow; if a reputable vendor has any, that's where he or she would take them.

--- Laurie

 

[lawnmower79]

Tucson is very far from where I am. Hong Kong is much much closer.
I had a brief look at the website for Hong Kong here: http://exhibitions.jewellerynetasia.com/9jg/FairInfo/FairDetails/tabid/5280/language/en-US/Default.aspx
It keeps saying "Admission is limited to trade professionals." though. Does that mean ordinary people cannot go in?

 

[mochiko42]

On the registration form it says that private collectors is one of the category of visitor you can register under. They don't really check so long as you have business cards made. I went last year and planning to go again this September as a visitor.

Eta: or you can attend if you find an exhibitor that is willing to send you an invitation. That's what I did last year.


There is also a show in November that is open to the public but I haven't been to that one before, but I believe some other PSers have.

 

[innerkitten]

I think gemcal.com used to buy gems from Burma. maybe they have some connections or info to share? Gemwow.com too. I think Gemwow is a bunch of people. But worth contacting them and getting their opinion.

 

[innerkitten]

Or Vincent Pardieu?

 

[Marlow]

Gemwow is o.k.!

I bought one stone and was interested in another one - nice communication, everything was fine.

It is a platform for several vendors - from untreated rubies to cheap cabs - picture and describtion was o.k. - the stone was better!

A rare colourless chrysoberyl with a slight bluishgreen touch 1,03 ct for only 35 $ - a super deal - in a show I had to pay around 100 EUR = 136$ minimum for colorless chryso.

 

[treasurehunter]

I recently went to Thailand to buy rubies, I visited top companies who buy rough from burma and cut in Chantaburri.
Finding an Unheated Pidgeon red Mogok Ruby, forget about it.... They are all pre sold before they hit the market.
Maybe you can find pinkish red unheated rubies from Burma
Finding nice Unheated Mozambique Rubies pidgin Red was not problem but still extremely difficult to find well cut stones .
If you go to burma you will get ripped off.
Advice- Look for a Mozambique unheated ruby, they are very nice . Or accept heated rubies from burma.