Can this diamond be saved with a re-cut??

[LilAlex]

Been on PS a bit but mostly CS. Not very knowledgeable about diamonds but I am looking for opinions about whether this stone can be salvaged with a re-cut, what it might cost, and how much weight might be lost.

Friend(ish) bought it decades ago with a 1979 GIA report as follows:









I initially thought it was pretty good because the depth percentage and table percentage were "in range." And it's decent clarity and color, as you can see.

But then I saw the notation that the crown angle is "less than 30%." This is amazingly bad, yes? I did a little trig and, assuming a crown angle of 30 (and recognizing that it could be even lower), I calculated the pavilion angle at a (similarly terrible?) 44%. So this must be one of those classic examples that specs well by old-school percentages but has a super-shallow crown and super deep pavilion -- which together account for the "acceptable" diameter for depth!

Clearly, if one were considering buying this, the advice would be "keep looking." But this one is a sunk cost (was evidently bought as an "investment diamond" back when that was a thing) so it is essentially a blank slate. Can one make an ideal-cut diamond from this?

I estimate that to change the crown angle to 34.5, I would sacrifice 0.5mm or 6.7% in diameter. To change the pavilion angle to 41, I would lose 0.4mm or 8.9% in depth. Doing the math, it looks like I would lose 21% of the ct-weight to achieve this, even with no other factors, yielding a 1.16-ct best-case result. The weight loss is not a big factor since the stone, as I said, is a sunk cost (bought at a bargain price, I'm guessing, some 40+ years ago).

Is this doable and worth doing -- and any idea of the cost? Can retail consumers even get an ideal-level re-cut?

Thank you, diamond experts!

 

[Karl_K]

I was going to throw out an off the top of my head 1.10-1.20 for a table in the 58 range and a steeper crown angle but still a bit shallow. Something like a 58t 33.5c 41p.
There are a few places that have done recuts for consumers, Southwest diamond cutters and Brian Gavin. In the past Brian was the more expensive of the 2 but if you want a super-ideal recut then he is the one.
If you want it at a beautiful diamond but not likely super-ideal then southwest for less money.
I dont have the current price for either place.

 

[LilAlex]

I was going to throw out an off the top of my head 1.10-1.20 for a table in the 58 range and a steeper crown angle but still a bit shallow. Something like a 58t 33.5c 41p.

This is super-helpful, @Karl_K. Thank you so much for the opinion and guidance!

I dont have the current price for either place.

Cost-wise, is it likely to be three figures? Or four...? Even the vaguest ballpark would help. (Colored stone re-cuts -- even for spendy gems -- are surprisingly reasonable.) I know I will get a number but I will not be able to tell if it is a "go-away price" for irksome riff-raff like me.

There is a second, smaller one of the same vintage that lacks the crown angle comment so I have no idea how poorly cut it is but I suspect it's of similar overall quality. Maybe recutting both at the same time makes it more attractive from the vendor side.

 

[yssie]

D’you have any pics? Any pics that show faceting from face-up - fancy scope images not needed!

I feel like sometimes diamonds really are ice cream flavours, and the PS zeitgeist superideal is chocolate, and some people LOVE chocolate, but for other people vanilla or strawberry is perfect, and then there are the folks who are Adirondack-bear-paw-extra-caramel through and through… There are lots of beautiful faceting styles!! If you aren’t attracted to the stone right now, there are most likely some recut options that can fix that without the diameter loss you’d take going superideal (or superideal-esque).

 

[LilAlex]

D’you have any pics? Any pics that show faceting from face-up - fancy scope images not needed!

Good question, @yssie -- and I don't. I know it will be "pretty" and sparkly; somebody with good taste bought it before the internet era so it was seen in person.

It's just so far off the left side of this chart that I feel it might as well be "Best for: drill bits."



I am not super hung-up on color or even clarity and would happily compromise on those but a 29-30c | 44-45p sounds irredeemable. Are there circumstances where a diamond with those proportions could have desirable characteristics? If anything, I am more into the right side of the chart.

The fact that GIA -- even before angles were routinely reported -- felt compelled to comment on the super-shallow crown angle makes it feel a little sus.

But you're right -- maybe to my unjaded eye, it will look fine.

 

[kenny]

Another way to describe those C and P angels: In a side view the girdle is too high (too close to the table).

To improve cut they must 'push the girdle down' closer to the culet, then optimize CA, PA and all the other facets.
Of course this will reduce the diameter, face up size.

The 60.5% (average) depth and 59% table probably wouldn't need to change much, though you might want to polish down that "medium" girdle to a point.

Considering it's an F and VS2 (and a recut might remove some inclusions, raising the clarity grade) I'd contact Brian Gavin.

 

[kenny]

Too late to edit.

I wrote, "The 60.5% (average) depth and 59% table probably wouldn't need to change much, though you might want to polish down that "medium" girdle to a point."

I meant to write, The 60.5% (average) depth and 59% table probably wouldn't need to change much, though you might want to polish down that "medium" culet to a point.

 

[Karl_K]

Cost-wise, is it likely to be three figures? Or four...? Even the vaguest ballpark would help. (Colored stone re-cuts -- even for spendy gems -- are surprisingly reasonable.) I know I will get a number but I will not be able to tell if it is a "go-away price" for irksome riff-raff like me.

With inflation the pricing information I have may be very stale so im just going to say:
I think you could get it done for around a grandish with report. More for super-ideal with a new AGS report.
Contact both and get pricing and options.

 

[vintageinjune]

From Southwest Diamond Cutters :

Services - Southwest Diamond Cutters

Southwest Diamond Cutters offers a complete array of services available to the industry Standard Cutting Services All stones will be cut to a fine make (generally Very Good to Excellent) Facet girdle Inscription removal Stones over 5.00 carats will be priced upon inspection There is a minimum...

southwestdiamondcutters.com

"
Premium Cutting Service

• Premium services is for all round stones which require additional work in order to achieve specified weight points or cut grades.
• Triple EX $275.00 per carat.
• Triple EX min. charge $200.00 per stone.
• Stones over 5.00 carats will be priced upon inspection."

 

[LilAlex]

I meant to write...

Thank you, @kenny! I read it correctly for some reason.

for around a grandish with report

Thanks, @Karl_K -- that's a great starting point at least.

Premium Cutting Service

Thank you, @vintageinjune ! I'll look at their "menu." I suspect it's extra for avocado, etc....

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I really would check with Brian Gavin. He used to be the cutter for white flash, I think. He worked for them before he went on his own. He is an excellent cutter. He also charges by the carat weight. Check with him as well.

Annette

 

[Karl_K]

Thank you, @vintageinjune ! I'll look at their "menu." I suspect it's extra for avocado, etc....

lol that's why I said contact them and get a quote.
Keep in mind....
Until whoever is doing the recut actually has it in hand and looks at the inclusions, tested for strain, and gets a scan nothing is absolute even that it can be recut.

 

[Jax172]

I had Brian Gavin recut my MIL's diamond several years ago. I don't remember the cost but I think I posted a thread about it. I shall search for it. It didn't lose that much weight (actually a bit but the diameter didn't lose much) but they were not looking to make it super super ideal. Just way better than it was. It was a good decision. It looks way better now.

Found it:

Recut is Done!

I recently inherited my MIL diamond engagement ring. It was a larger stone but not well cut. So I sent it to BGD for a recut analysis. Here are the before pictures

www.pricescope.com

 

[LilAlex]

I had Brian Gavin recut my MIL's diamond several years ago.

Thanks! I already reached out but I do not have the stone in hand yet. They were very responsive and professional -- "you'll want to do this, this, and this..." It seems like a good way to go.

 

[denverappraiser]

Expect about $400/ct plus shipppng (twice), plus the lab, plus more shipping.

 

[Bron357]

If the purpose is to realize it’s value ie sell the diamond, do the $$ numbers carefully.
While it’s cut is poor, it certainly has colour, size and clarity in its favour.
Will improving the cut by reducing the size to just over 1 carat , outweigh the cost of recutting Vs a sale “as is”?
Its hard enough to sell a modest size pre loved diamond without also chasing to recoup further costs incurred.
Its a tough market at the best of times selling as a person.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I sent a family diamond to BGD get a recut evaluation a few years ago and he said it was a candidate for a recut. Their cutters did a great job but it did not reach superideal cut, because it would have lost too much weight. It was pretty much a flat top stone like the one you are talking about. I reset the stone into a pendant and it was fine. At that time it was something like $350-375 per carat plus AGS/shipping fees if you need it. (I didn't have mine sent to AGS because Brian was honest and told me it would not make superideal. I agreed with his judgment). I do think Brian would require the stone to be sent to him before he'd agree to recut it.

Just wanted to correct something...Brian did not actually personally cut ACA diamonds for WF. He brought past experience and expertise regarding diamonds and diamond cutting in his position there, but he did not personally cut the diamonds. BGD sent my family diamond to their cutting facility in Europe (maybe Antwerp...it's been a long time).

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Actually the crown and pavilion are currently well matched and the stone may loose a lot of weight.
There are many factors to consider.
Karl has given you the same answer I would if the stone is to be worn as a ring.
But as a pendant if you could see the before and after side by side you would probably do nothing.

 

[yssie]

Got any faceups of this Best For Drill Bits stone? (Description made me laugh out loud, but honestly I'm pretty sure that's not the case!)

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

what did you deside @LilAlex ?

 

[LilAlex]

Got any faceups of this Best For Drill Bits stone? (Description made me laugh out loud, but honestly I'm pretty sure that's not the case!)

Thanks, @yssie. I have seen it in person and it is pretty. But I know very little about gauging diamond appearance. I should have it in hand again fairly soon and can try to take some photos -- but likely nothing that would help an expert render an opinion!

what did you deside @LilAlex ?

Thanks for asking, @Daisys and Diamonds! So far I am planning on the re-cut but it will take a little longer. There is a bit of a story with this and the individual who bought it decades ago -- part of the reason I have been off PS for a few weeks.

 

[LilAlex]

Karl has given you the same answer I would if the stone is to be worn as a ring.
But as a pendant if you could see the before and after side by side you would probably do nothing.

That's a fear I share, especially with my level of expertise, @Garry H (Cut Nut). Spouse's e-ring is ~ 1.1 H SI2 in a plain-Jane knife-edge solitaire mounting and "good" but not terrific cut -- and she says it is by far the thing she gets the most compliments on.

It is a "mind clean" thing for me. Person who bought this was a brilliant role model for me and for my kids and it pains me a little that it was not really as described. I mean it's not a fish-eye or anything but it is (or sounds?) conspicuously less than it could be. For context, the other acquisition of this vintage was a "nice SI2." But the SI2-maker is a big black inclusion right under the middle of the table (as in "What the what?!?" on your first glance with a loupe) -- so a bona fide GIA SI2 but not the one you would ever, ever buy. These instances affect the sentimental value for me.

I will see if I can get some face-up photos of the "girdle-too-high" 1.46.

Their cutters did a great job but it did not reach superideal cut, because it would have lost too much weight.

This is super-helpful real-world experience -- so thank you!

Will improving the cut by reducing the size to just over 1 carat , outweigh the cost of recutting Vs a sale “as is”?

Yes, good point. It is not for re-sale -- it is for appearance and "mind-cleanliness," only. It may make it's way into jewelry soon or a kid's e-ring some (distant) day or even go back in the safe deposit box.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sorry, sounds like I am touting for business, but you need to buy an ASET scope and use that for your photos.

 

[LilAlex]

you need...an ASET scope and use that for your photos.

Of course -- makes sense and these are the images I see here. These stones are RBCs so will opt for the IdealScope and go from there.

I did not interpret this as a commercial solicitation -- just much-appreciated advice on how to ensure that I am speaking the right language to get the best input from knowledgeable folks on this forum.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Of course -- makes sense and these are the images I see here. These stones are RBCs so will opt for the IdealScope and go from there.

I did not interpret this as a commercial solicitation -- just much-appreciated advice on how to ensure that I am speaking the right language to get the best input from knowledgeable folks on this forum.

ASET will help us help you better. Harder to take photos but provide a lot more info for unusual proportions and probably wobbly symmetry.

 

[LilAlex]

Late follow-up but still in need of help please!

To re-cap, this is a 1.46-ct RBC with super-shallow crown angle (< 30 degrees) and steep pavilion angle such that the depth and table percentages are pretty good.

This is from the original c1979 GIA report (also at the top of this thread):




I was worried by the numbers (the angles) but @Garry H (Cut Nut) pointed out that the crown and pavilion were fairly well matched such that the appearance could be acceptable.

@Karl_K felt the weight loss in a re-cut to ideal may not be worth the gain in appearance whereas a more incremental re-cut might offer a better balance of weight-retention and appearance.

Now with the stone in my hand, how does it look to my eye? I don't know -- bright and sparkly like a diamond. I am more of a colored-stone guy who is pretty hopeless with the nuances of diamond cut.

I was encouraged to share ASET images from the stone and I finally have my act (somewhat) together on this. I am looking for some guidance interpreting them. It seems "pretty good" to my eye vis-a-vis light return with a fair bit of asymmetry.






For comparison, this (below) is a well-cut CZ that was included with my ASET kit as a positive control. I seem to be struggling a bit to get the stones to sit perfectly horizontal in the pre-drilled holes -- this is about as good as I can get it look.





So I'd be grateful for any opinions on the ASET images for this gem. Thank you!

 

[DejaWiz]

Wow, I can clearly see how out of round that is.
Might be part of the unique charm to many.

the light return looks quite decent for the proportions and angles...but can you take a few more shots with stronger backlighting?

 

[Karl_K]

Pendant as is if it was mine.
ASET shows its bright.
Not a very lively combo for a ring but would work in a pendant very well.

 

[Karl_K]

For better ASET images, the table needs to be parallel with the scope lens and the camera lens parallel with both.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Agree with Karl and as I predicted.
It would loose a lot of spread it recut and it will be very very bright.