ChunkyCushionLover
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Can you help me compare these two antique cushions??? ERD and GOG
- Thread starter ccb0x45
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Hey Dan,
I hear what you''re saying. It is especially true with the setup we''ve created. While I greatly value the information the ASET gives we''ve grown accustomed to be able to differentiate light leakage in our reflector photography (first FireScope then DiamXray) and when investigating AGS'' setups I did not care for the black background as it made it difficult to differentiate between what AGS interprets as obstruction vs what is interpreted as light leakage in the same device. It is also very possible to capture blacks where there should be blues due to the aperature capturing the reflection of the lens of the camera.
AGS alleviates this problem in their PGS software which looks at a 3d model of a diamond and determines the degree of leakage there but it doesn''t solve the ASET prob.
And then there are times when ASET imagery doesn''t always correlate to practical observation though I find most of the time it does. In essence we use the device to read a diamond in the sense that a particular ASET image will produce a certain result. It''s up to the student of gemology to learn how different ASET images translate to diamond brightness, contrast, fire & sparkle in a given diamond and know "Is this what my client is looking for or not?". We''ll try to learn what appearance it is that appeals to the person and find the diamond that corresponds to their preference. You''ve been doing this a while so you know as well as I do the mixed bag coming out of the factories with regards to cushions. There are so many varieties of appearance within this shape than perhaps any other shape out there which doesn''t make our jobs any easier.
It''s a pleasure to make your acquaintance.
PS: I don''t think CCL has any loose AVC''s handy.
Kind regards,
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slg47
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Thanks to all the experts and vendors for participating in this discussion, this has been really informative! I have really enjoyed reading and learning on PS...and especially the GOG videos, that is what convinced me to go square cushion H&A (not advertising GOG, just saying that I appreciate the information provided by them and many other PS vendors)
also about this...
PS: I don''t think CCL has any loose AVC''s handy.
does ANYONE have any loose AVC''s handy (besides Rhino) those just aren''t things you have handy!
also about this...
PS: I don''t think CCL has any loose AVC''s handy.
does ANYONE have any loose AVC''s handy (besides Rhino) those just aren''t things you have handy!
ChunkyCushionLover
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40 Minutes from Your Office on 5th to GOG in no traffic. Over 2 hours or more in bad traffic
I''m a canuck I think it would be a little farther going to Canada especially since I bought my wife''s only three rings and only centre diamond from Mark T at ERD.
At least then we would all be on the same page, I''ll happily use it as a reference here on PS if its a well taken image.
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Cehrabehra
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Date: 5/15/2010 8:37:31 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
let me check my pockets.
Nope none in there sorry.
Perhaps you should drive to Long Island and pick one up, Rhino will get a big kick out you actually wanting to provide comparison standards between the cushions from your source and one of his AVCs.
Look, I think the AVCs are wonderful, but they''re not the only flavor in town. For competing with the red bearing rounds, the AVCs do incredibly well. True. But stones that have a lot of green in the asets have a different sort of beauty - more like argyle or a kaleidoscope, pulling colors from the walls and clothes and twisting them in spectral layers as well as skewed refractions. I dunno, it''s just DIFFERENT and if the game is only about red in the aset then they''re never going to be the winner, but they have an artistry where interesting cut plays with color in a different way. This is one of the qualities that historically made cushions so unique, popular, and, well, cushiony! They play with candelight differently, they just react differently. if it is ALL AND ONLY about face up still photo red... but it isn''t just about that - that''s just the easiest way to create a static base for judging stones online. You can rely more on a hundred people who have never seen the stone tell you its okay rather than your own eyes.
Cehrabehra
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Jon''s the bestDate: 5/15/2010 9:05:10 PM
Author: slg47
Thanks to all the experts and vendors for participating in this discussion, this has been really informative! I have really enjoyed reading and learning on PS...and especially the GOG videos, that is what convinced me to go square cushion H&A (not advertising GOG, just saying that I appreciate the information provided by them and many other PS vendors)
also about this...
PS: I don''t think CCL has any loose AVC''s handy.
does ANYONE have any loose AVC''s handy (besides Rhino) those just aren''t things you have handy!
I know in my last post it looks lke I''m dissing him but I am totally not. I just would hate cushions to get so narrowly focused like the rounds have. I remember several years ago garry warning me that one of the things that made cushions so amazing was that they were such uncharted territory and that uncovering their secrets could mean their demise (paraphrased). Or was it mr pollard? hahaha... now I forget
CharmyPoo
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I bet Leon has a nice inventory of AVC sitting in his office.Date: 5/15/2010 8:37:31 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover
let me check my pockets.
Nope none in there sorry.
Perhaps you should drive to Long Island and pick one up, Rhino will get a big kick out you actually wanting to provide comparison standards between the cushions from your source and one of his AVCs.
CharmyPoo
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CharmyPoo
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Cehrabehra
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yes I have seen the pictures and I''m not knocking the AVC in any way - but they''re different than the old fashioned cushions in how they perform. Some may say they''re better and they sure have solid proof and arguments for that, but they''re different and I can still understand why some may prefer another type.
CharmyPoo
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No disagreement there that AVC, newly cut generic chunky cushions, and true antique cushions are different in the way they perform and beautiful all in their own. Based on your post, I got the impression that you were saying cushions with lots of green in the aset throws off colors - I wanted to clarify that AVCs do this as well and I wouldn''t say that is a distinguishing factor for other cushions. I am not knocking other cushions as well.
I don''t see how establishing branded cuts and cut grades for cushions is any different than for rounds. It is the same for rounds that people do like all types and ranges of specs ... it''s all personal preference. Some like 60/60 .. some don''t ... some like OECs and others don''t.
CCL thanks for your thoughts and you are right you have been far more active on this forum than I have been. Secondly I'm not sure that your hyper activity is all that relevant to my argument. Lastly regarding your comment that I am heavily influenced by my own experiences I would say that your statement would apply to basically every human. I had read a lot of your posts and already knew that you bought from ERD and had conversations with Leon. So I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with with anything. ( Maybe it does if so please explain)
CCL as I recall from one of your previous posts you have an analytical background so I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, but rather than go back and forth with ad hominems lets stick to our arguments.. Here are mine:
If you go back and read my two posts my main point that I was trying to get across is that statistically speaking it seems nearly impossible to state in absolute terms that EVERY AVC is automatically better than EVERY non branded chunky cushion. I say that last statement fully understanding the fantastically reliable consistency of AVC's but at the end of the day they are cut by humans to fall into a range of parameters and that will cause some variability in the output. So again I go back to my statement that it just seems this variability or deviation from the "AVC norm" creates an opportunity for a great non branded chunky "the needle in the haystack (as some on here would call it) to outperform the AVC. Some people may argue this its highly unlikely for a non branded chunky to outperform the AVC and I would agree but highly unlikely doesn't mean mathematically impossible. Everyone please realize I'm not trying to ( purposely) drag a what should be a fun conversation and topic (chunky cushions!!!) into an arcane boring discussion regarding probability distributions, six sigma methodologies, logically fallacies, etc but also think if we ignore reality than we fail to bring some balance amidst the passion (i.e cheerleading) surrounding the light performance of AVC. So while it may be a good argument (highly probable) that AVC's in terms of light performance are superior to the non branded chunky's its not 100% certain. My hat goes off to Jon for creating the AVC's and for EARNING the rabid affection (i.e the cheerleading) of so many people on the forum. So I go back to my original posts either there are absolutes or there aren't. So either there are some absolutes in the world of chunky cushions (meaning AVC's are always, 100% of the time going to be superior to non branded chunkies) or there are not any absolutes. Maybe this is a false choice maybe there's another way to look at all of this if there is please let me know.
CCL as I recall from one of your previous posts you have an analytical background so I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, but rather than go back and forth with ad hominems lets stick to our arguments.. Here are mine:
If you go back and read my two posts my main point that I was trying to get across is that statistically speaking it seems nearly impossible to state in absolute terms that EVERY AVC is automatically better than EVERY non branded chunky cushion. I say that last statement fully understanding the fantastically reliable consistency of AVC's but at the end of the day they are cut by humans to fall into a range of parameters and that will cause some variability in the output. So again I go back to my statement that it just seems this variability or deviation from the "AVC norm" creates an opportunity for a great non branded chunky "the needle in the haystack (as some on here would call it) to outperform the AVC. Some people may argue this its highly unlikely for a non branded chunky to outperform the AVC and I would agree but highly unlikely doesn't mean mathematically impossible. Everyone please realize I'm not trying to ( purposely) drag a what should be a fun conversation and topic (chunky cushions!!!) into an arcane boring discussion regarding probability distributions, six sigma methodologies, logically fallacies, etc but also think if we ignore reality than we fail to bring some balance amidst the passion (i.e cheerleading) surrounding the light performance of AVC. So while it may be a good argument (highly probable) that AVC's in terms of light performance are superior to the non branded chunky's its not 100% certain. My hat goes off to Jon for creating the AVC's and for EARNING the rabid affection (i.e the cheerleading) of so many people on the forum. So I go back to my original posts either there are absolutes or there aren't. So either there are some absolutes in the world of chunky cushions (meaning AVC's are always, 100% of the time going to be superior to non branded chunkies) or there are not any absolutes. Maybe this is a false choice maybe there's another way to look at all of this if there is please let me know.
Cehrabehra
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I''m not opposed to branded cuts but when I look at rounds there really is only 1 cut dominating the field. OEC, Solsfera come to mind as exceptions, but not common. There are dozens of other cuts but they are rare. I remember when I started here fighting for some sort of standard in cushions and I do believe the AVC is a step in the right direction. I just hope that people don''t begin to see that as the ONLY way to cut a cushion ''right''. Hence my concerns with attitudes that imply that any smart person would really only go toward AVC for an antique style cushion. I am not sure how to say it lol I''m a big fan of Jonathan
Cehrabehra
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CharmyPoo
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Cehrabehra
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CharmyPoo
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Not in my opinion - it wasn''t meant to be an attack in any shape or form. Many of us share photos of our diamonds, aset, idealscope and other specs here - some even share the price they paid. I guess I don''t see this as anything different - many of us will be interested in seeing it. I have no doubt that Bill has a gorgeous diamond. We have seen a photo of it and even know the specs from his other thread. I find this to be helpful for other buyers looking for a cushion diamond. If we are able to identify sources that can potentially produce cushions that rival an AVC .. it opens a lot more doors for the consumers and I will be very happy to broaden my recommendations.Date: 5/16/2010 11:29:57 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
oh my charmy, that''s a little personal now, doncha think?
Bill - if I am crossing the line .. I apologize. I just didn''t see a problem with sharing ASET. I will be very happy to share my ASET again. My AVC is more shallow than the other AVC and others might want to see what happens when an AVC is more shallow and the need for a thinner girdle. I would also be happy to share an ASET of my stone from Mark but unfortunately the stone was already set when I took it and I wasn''t able to get a proper ASET done.
jgny
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I would be very much interested in seeing the ASET as well, if you would be willing to share. Some vendors I have talked to have not been so enthusiastic about getting ASET images, and have emphasized it''s really what I like and see that is more important. Though I see what they mean, I also think having an ASET just helps me have an objective perspective on light return. And when you are talking about spending this $$$, it pays to do due diligence.
ChunkyCushionLover
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BillBigs,
Seeing as you haven't paraphrased or answered any of my questions or rhino's comments I will be brief this seems like a waste of my time at this point.
1) Your diamond does not have the same ASET or light performance of AVC. You should let go of this fantasy now or post the ASET so its clear to all.
If you can prove yours somehow looks like an AVC (IMPOSSIBLE based on the photograph of your diamond and its source) than you have made PS and GOG history.
2) Rhino is being diplomatic and polite, a diamond either is an AVC or isn't, there has never been a generic cushion that has shown the same ASET or real life appearance as an AVC.
3) AVCs and generic cushions aren't produced or finished based on a normal curve it is ridiculous you quote a sigma standard deviation. Go back to first year university statistics, standard deviation is properly applied to a normal curve and other similar frequency distributions, irrelevant to diamond production. Even the actual production is also irrelevant, the reason why AVCs are consistantly superior in light performance to generic cushions is the high rejection rate applied by Rhino as to what is included in the brand. All AVCs must have a bright and defined maltese cross with all four leaves intensely returning light over a wide range of tilt angles. One of the tests for this appearance is the ASET which must be red and unbroken over the 2,4,6,8 pavillion main facets. If any of the larger pavillion mains of the cross are interrupted significantly by obstruction (ASET blue) or show less intense light return (ASET Green) or leakage (ASET white or black) than the diamond is not sold as an AVC and must either be recut or sold through secondary channels.
3) My comments refer only to light performance as measured by faceup reflector technology, video, simulated images and in person observations of an AVC and other generic 8 main vintage cushions.
I am not particularly fond of self validating posters who have bought from Leon or ERD who have never seen an AVC and who post here and say their cushions have equal light performance(as defined by the ASET or AGS research) to AVCs and who try to blur the line between light performance and beauty.
There is a difference, the former can be objectively graded and observed by reproduceable measurements and tools, the latter is subjective, has numerous considerations and everyone's opinion has some merit no matter how inexperienced this opinion may be.
If you really want to debate with me on the technical aspects of light performance in these cushions than please read the threads, AGS slideshow, AGS paper, and provide arguments that demonstrate you have more to offer here than your seemingly uneducated opinion.
Seeing as you haven't paraphrased or answered any of my questions or rhino's comments I will be brief this seems like a waste of my time at this point.
1) Your diamond does not have the same ASET or light performance of AVC. You should let go of this fantasy now or post the ASET so its clear to all.
If you can prove yours somehow looks like an AVC (IMPOSSIBLE based on the photograph of your diamond and its source) than you have made PS and GOG history.
2) Rhino is being diplomatic and polite, a diamond either is an AVC or isn't, there has never been a generic cushion that has shown the same ASET or real life appearance as an AVC.
3) AVCs and generic cushions aren't produced or finished based on a normal curve it is ridiculous you quote a sigma standard deviation. Go back to first year university statistics, standard deviation is properly applied to a normal curve and other similar frequency distributions, irrelevant to diamond production. Even the actual production is also irrelevant, the reason why AVCs are consistantly superior in light performance to generic cushions is the high rejection rate applied by Rhino as to what is included in the brand. All AVCs must have a bright and defined maltese cross with all four leaves intensely returning light over a wide range of tilt angles. One of the tests for this appearance is the ASET which must be red and unbroken over the 2,4,6,8 pavillion main facets. If any of the larger pavillion mains of the cross are interrupted significantly by obstruction (ASET blue) or show less intense light return (ASET Green) or leakage (ASET white or black) than the diamond is not sold as an AVC and must either be recut or sold through secondary channels.
3) My comments refer only to light performance as measured by faceup reflector technology, video, simulated images and in person observations of an AVC and other generic 8 main vintage cushions.
I am not particularly fond of self validating posters who have bought from Leon or ERD who have never seen an AVC and who post here and say their cushions have equal light performance(as defined by the ASET or AGS research) to AVCs and who try to blur the line between light performance and beauty.
There is a difference, the former can be objectively graded and observed by reproduceable measurements and tools, the latter is subjective, has numerous considerations and everyone's opinion has some merit no matter how inexperienced this opinion may be.
If you really want to debate with me on the technical aspects of light performance in these cushions than please read the threads, AGS slideshow, AGS paper, and provide arguments that demonstrate you have more to offer here than your seemingly uneducated opinion.
Imdanny
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ChunkyCushionLover
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Cehrah,
"more like argyle or a kaleidoscope, pulling colors from the walls and clothes and twisting them in spectral layers"
This describes the appearance of fire and its inherent property of dispersion.
However, you have not proven (nor anyonelse) that a generic 8 main vintage cushion with less intense light return (more green in the ASET) in some lighting displays more dispersion or colored light. The exact opposite is likely true, (dispersion is dependant upon virtual facet size and the angular subtend of the facet http://www.agslab.com/spie/spie_lo_res.pdf page
both of these factors would favour more dispersion in an AVC. Have you actually made a comparison in real life under different lighting conditions between your stone and an AVC and observed more dispersion in your stone?
I do remember your thread here though https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diagem-et-al.124895/ referring to your own stone (which you were considering having recut.)
"My feelings overall on the stone ARE mixed so you didn't miss anything. I love the stone itself (intrinsically) and I like what it does in some situations but I'm pretty confident it could have been done better."
"If I keep my stone as is it has to go into another setting. It is dying. I always accepted the leakiness of it as a sign for it to let light in from every direction as well as out. The thing shone like a marvelous sparkling beauty from every angle when it wasn't set - much prettier than any round I've ever seen from other than head on (rounds corner that market well lol). "
How would you advise someone to avoid potential buyer's remorse when choosing a vintage style cushion now?
Since this thread got pretty long and hectic I might as well let people know my final decision.
It came down to my GF deciding, she saw the ERD cushion in person and absolutely fell in love with it and it was over. So we went with that(which I am happy about because it was cheaper for me
Also Mark sent me the ASSET right after I formally requested it, although it looks different from the GOG ones(on a black background for one).
Thanks to mark for finding something in the size she wanted while saving me some money, and my gf REALLY appreciated getting to see it in person as well.
If the stone really has all the problems mentioned by ChunkyCushion earlier, I sure couldn''t see them in person, and after watching the GOG videos around 20 times and then seeing that one in person, neither I nor my GF could tell the difference between the cuts at all(and this is after looking at TONS of cushions from other jewelers in person which were blown away by this one). So maybe there is a big difference in light return, but for us the bigger size and our eyes not being good enough to tell the difference won out.
It came down to my GF deciding, she saw the ERD cushion in person and absolutely fell in love with it and it was over. So we went with that(which I am happy about because it was cheaper for me
Also Mark sent me the ASSET right after I formally requested it, although it looks different from the GOG ones(on a black background for one).
Thanks to mark for finding something in the size she wanted while saving me some money, and my gf REALLY appreciated getting to see it in person as well.
If the stone really has all the problems mentioned by ChunkyCushion earlier, I sure couldn''t see them in person, and after watching the GOG videos around 20 times and then seeing that one in person, neither I nor my GF could tell the difference between the cuts at all(and this is after looking at TONS of cushions from other jewelers in person which were blown away by this one). So maybe there is a big difference in light return, but for us the bigger size and our eyes not being good enough to tell the difference won out.
pancake
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In the end, ccb, it really comes down to that doesn''t it. I am glad your FF loves her stone and getting it for a price you love makes it even better! Congratulations.
I just want to add one comment, and say, I know absolutely nothing about cushions. I appreciate what you call the ''cheerleaders'' on this site. When you have a good experience with a vendor or a product
like a branded stone, people who share their experience make it easier for the people who don''t have a stat background or want to go to that much trouble and study.ERD has plenty of people here who have had a great experience with them and love their stones. That is the thing that makes pricescope great. All of us get to talk about what we love. Each person gets to take what they want from it. It is either a
place to start or a means to an end. Either way it is great for the person looking for a stone. I don''t think there are a whole lot of ''politics'' involved.
I just want to add one comment, and say, I know absolutely nothing about cushions. I appreciate what you call the ''cheerleaders'' on this site. When you have a good experience with a vendor or a product
like a branded stone, people who share their experience make it easier for the people who don''t have a stat background or want to go to that much trouble and study.ERD has plenty of people here who have had a great experience with them and love their stones. That is the thing that makes pricescope great. All of us get to talk about what we love. Each person gets to take what they want from it. It is either a
place to start or a means to an end. Either way it is great for the person looking for a stone. I don''t think there are a whole lot of ''politics'' involved.
ChunkyCushionLover
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CCB,Date: 5/21/2010 8:34:25 AM
Author: ccb0x45
Since this thread got pretty long and hectic I might as well let people know my final decision.
It came down to my GF deciding, she saw the ERD cushion in person and absolutely fell in love with it and it was over. So we went with that(which I am happy about because it was cheaper for me
Also Mark sent me the ASSET right after I formally requested it, although it looks different from the GOG ones(on a black background for one).
Thanks to mark for finding something in the size she wanted while saving me some money, and my gf REALLY appreciated getting to see it in person as well.
If the stone really has all the problems mentioned by ChunkyCushion earlier, I sure couldn't see them in person, and after watching the GOG videos around 20 times and then seeing that one in person, neither I nor my GF could tell the difference between the cuts at all(and this is after looking at TONS of cushions from other jewelers in person which were blown away by this one). So maybe there is a big difference in light return, but for us the bigger size and our eyes not being good enough to tell the difference won out.
Congratulations on your purchase, I look forward to seeing the finished ring in a show me the bling thread.
I would have preferred your GF had seen a comparison of both candidates in person before making a choice, but she sounds very happy and that is ultimately what is most important.
Good-Luck,
CCL
CharmyPoo
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Congrats on your purchase - I am sure it is beautiful! Everyone has different tolerances and I honestly believe in getting the biggest bang for your buck based on your personal tolerances. I can't wait to see the finished product. I always thought the diamond was very pretty and got lots of character!
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Congratulations!Date: 5/21/2010 8:34:25 AM
Author: ccb0x45
Since this thread got pretty long and hectic I might as well let people know my final decision.
It came down to my GF deciding, she saw the ERD cushion in person and absolutely fell in love with it and it was over. So we went with that(which I am happy about because it was cheaper for me
Also Mark sent me the ASSET right after I formally requested it, although it looks different from the GOG ones(on a black background for one).
Thanks to mark for finding something in the size she wanted while saving me some money, and my gf REALLY appreciated getting to see it in person as well.
If the stone really has all the problems mentioned by ChunkyCushion earlier, I sure couldn''t see them in person, and after watching the GOG videos around 20 times and then seeing that one in person, neither I nor my GF could tell the difference between the cuts at all(and this is after looking at TONS of cushions from other jewelers in person which were blown away by this one). So maybe there is a big difference in light return, but for us the bigger size and our eyes not being good enough to tell the difference won out.
I am sure you both chose a beautiful stone and have made the right decision for you!
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