Can you help me compare these two antique cushions??? ERD and GOG

[ccb0x45]

Light performance is one factor (the most important in my opinion) to judging a diamond''s beauty, it is not the only one. It really doesn''t matter if you line up 100 people who have bought from Bluenile, Leon or ERD and they all give their opinion in a thread about why their cushion''s perform just as well (self validation), it still doesn''t change the fact that the objective reflector technology is telling us quite another story and this does translate to real world appearance differences.


I have long argued making an informed decision should often involve comparing branded and unbranded diamonds in person or at least under multiple lighting conditions in video, the real question should be is the probable premium appropriate(PPA) for all consumers?


(In this thread it clearly wasn''t but I have to wonder if the debate over the light performance differences influenced the OP''s decision?)

I''ll answer CCL''s question of whether the light performance debate influenced the OP''s decision. Not really it didnt. It is kind of interesting, however I agree with Miss Debby, that they do almost look like different cuts. In the end my GF made the decision, which makes me the happiest because I''d rather her be happy with it since she will *hopefully* be wearing it for the rest of her life, and I''m really just trying to get her what she likes as a symbol of how much I care about her. Her opinion(and she hasnt read all these forums cause I really doubt she cares at all since she is much less analytical than me), was that the August Vintage while very sparkly, looked weird. They did look like two different cuts, the august vintage has very large mains that creates a HUGE lit up bow tie(maltese cross) in the middle, which to her she didnt like the look. The ERD one, each main does light up at different angles(which is why I dont trust the ASET to be honest because I saw it very very carefully and looked for that, because I got the ASET before I looked at it).

She is going for a very antique style art deco ring, and wanted a diamond that looked antique, and to her the august vintage didn''t really look antique(and she thought it just looked a little strange in general because of the maltese). She wanted it to be big and chunky old style type diamond, and we had looked at many different cushions, and as soon as she looked at that one for 3 minutes she was like, WOW I LOVE IT... and of course we kept looking at it for another half an hour. I really tried to not push her in one direction or another(I kind of did a bit at the beginning but then realized, why?) So I happily let her pick it herself. I could sit here and think about this debate a bunch and worry about the light performance(something I didn''t even know about before looking at diamonds in general), but I think that the rock is bigger, cheaper, extremely bright, and fits extremely well with the very vintage style setting she will be getting(which I think is gonna look pretty great when its done), and I have scoured videos and pictures of august vintage cushions and I just don''t think they look like real vintage stones, they have their own look which I am sure people like(and I like as well), but they are built for this light performance, and they are more expensive because of it.

This thread got a bit tiring for me because even if im wrong and there is no politics, I dont see why people who arent affiliated with sellers or have something at stake are SO wrapped up in which one is better on these light performance standards. Its weird because earlier CCL said he/she had bought cushions from ERD and didn''t own any AVCs... so there must have been a reason for it, which im guessing is other factors pushed them towards it because they obviously have one serious love for AVCs, which is great. Mark had a great price, and he let me compare them in person, if GOG would have sent them to be available in person and I could compare them both, maybe it would be different, but they send videos(which is a lot better than other sites), and taking a trip to new york would just add to the price of the diamond plus I would have to get time off work.

I just feel like there is a lot of animosity, where as IM RIGHT, your WRONG, but it is a forum so maybe I am not understanding the tone that the writers put out there.

Anyways, like I said before, my girlfriend loved it, she will be wearing it, and I am as happy as can be. All I DIDNT want was to get her something she didnt want and have to hear tiny little complaints later in life or at worst case go through a massive return procedure. I am just happy that I brought her into the process(at some points I wasnt happy about this), because I would have gotten her something COMPLETELY different I think, and while she would have loved it just cause I got it for her, I think the ring she will end up with will be something she can pass down for generations and will be very unique against her friends rings(which in the end she wanted very much).

I am excited to get the setting done(I think the one she picked to replicate is gonna look pretty damn sweet). And as for light performance, if that was all I cared about I would have either purchased a round hearts and arrows or the cushion in the ASET I attached below.

On a final note, can someone tell me why this smiley is licking off its own face? It is creeping me out:

 

[missydebby]

Date: 5/23/2010 11:14:06 PM
Author: ccb0x45

On a final note, can someone tell me why this smiley is licking off its own face? It is creeping me out:

hehehehehe... I''m gonna hazard a guess that ye olde face licking smiling is a little kookoo for cocoa puffs.

Thanks so much for coming back and surmising everything. Can''t wait to see the hand shots. Congrats.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I am sorry that we decided to make your thread into a big debate. We shouldn't have done that but as you can tell .. we are very passionate about cushions (probably pretty scary to a person outside of ps). The most important thing is that your gf loved the diamond because honestly .. that is all that matters. What we think means nothing. However, CCL makes a good point that it is important to be able to compare and see the two stones in real life. The "awkwardness" you see in the video isn't really the same in real life. Dreamer also made a good point - Mark is a smart man by sending you the diamond to see because that is exactly what made the sale.

By the way, the image you attached is the idealscope image and not the aset. The ASET is more valuable when examining fancy shapes - it is the one with blue, green, reds. The image also seems doctored to me - why is the white behind the diamond shaded black and the rest of the image white?

 

[ccb0x45]

You are right its an idealscope, I thought it was an aset(shows how much I know), its actually sent by BrianGavin, im sure its a great cushion just not the antique look she was looking for. It was doctored by me, I cropped out their logo they put on the top as to not cause any more debate haha(I think the ideal scope is white, and they but a black border with their logo around it, no like intentional doctoring if you see the real image).

Anyways I somewhat understand how people can get that intense, its a lot of money to be spending on a small rock, so you might as well want it to be *THE BEST* in every possible way. And maybe it isnt awkward in person, but thats what she saw in the videos and we didn''t get a chance to view it in person(I assume GOG really doesn''t need to send them to be seen in person and lose the cash on shipping/handling if the person doesnt buy, considering they have people biting at the chomps for the diamonds).

Anyways I realized through this whole process, the best is what SHE likes and actually I would like to provide her less information at this point, because it can almost be polluting haha, as I have read on this forum: Its a lot harder to find a mind clean stone than an eye clean stone. And right now hers, is mind clean and in love with it.

 

[CharmyPoo]

About the picture - I just got confused because you see the areas in the diamond that are black - I would expect them to white given the other background. No big deal though. People here including myself just wanted to make sure you were armed with all the knowledge to make an educated decision for yourself. I think the diamond you chose is gorgeous - please do send more photos when you have a chance. I can''t wait to see it. It is one of the prettiest cushions I have seen from Mark lately.

 

[MrsBettyBoop]

Date: 5/23/2010 11:52:35 PM
Author: ccb0x45

Anyways I realized through this whole process, the best is what SHE likes and actually I would like to provide her less information at this point, because it can almost be polluting haha, as I have read on this forum: Its a lot harder to find a mind clean stone than an eye clean stone. And right now hers, is mind clean and in love with it.

Smart man! If she gets on PS, you might need another job.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 5/23/2010 10:38:45 AM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 5/23/2010 10:24:33 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 5/22/2010 3:03:15 PM
Author: missydebby

Date: 5/22/2010 1:14:32 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 5/21/2010 11:55:24 AM

Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 5/21/2010 10:47:26 AM

Author: missydebby

You know, you guys were definitely choosing between 2 absolute winners. I was in the same position and it was so hard, that I ended up getting a non AVC antique chunky cushion for my ring and a couple of AVC''s for earrings. I''m almost of the opinion that they should just be two different category of cut, just like Old Mine Cuts are the earliest version of Round Brilliant. (loose analogy)



Congrats on your purchase and I''m so glad you found a diamond she loves, for a great price, from a wonderful vendor. Winner x 3

Now just make sure to post pictures of the ring and hand shots so we can all drool in unison...

They definitely should both fall under cushion. Jon has a niche in that cushion market no doubt... but there are other cuts of cushion that are lovely as well. There''s this one cut, cannot recall the pattern off hand, that I like a lot. it''s modern and still chunky. I think CCL''s wife picked that type but I cannot recall... bargainhunter has one. Anyway - there''s no need to break up the cushion family and there''s no reason why different cuts cannot cohabitate. Just like some people don''t like hearts and arrows, not everyone is going to like even a hotly well performing stone like the avc. I still believe it is amazing and I''m thrilled he did this and I hope he continues to pursue some other ideas as well

I agree and my article which should be published on Pricescope shortly will explain the GIA and AGS naming conventions in detail.

I hears ya, CCL. Your technical expertise is outstanding and a great resource that you kindly share. Your passion is well earned.

But you know what it''s like to me?

It''s like someone asking me what I think about rock music. I answer ''what type of rock? There''s old greats like the Beatles, there''s some guys who updated that sound in the 90''s called Oasis, there''s soft rock like Crosby, Steels, Nash and Young, and there''s some more harder modern stuff like Nirvana.'' Then they ask me who''s the best. You could answer that based on a lot of different criteria, some very technical the way a music critic might. But it also might be wise to first have them check out a sample of each from You Tube, to get a sense of what appeals to their individual taste.

I know what you''re thinking... stupid analogy cause there''s no Beatles Asets!

MissyDebby,

When someone says that a vintage 8 main has equivalent light performance (not the subjective equivalent beauty) to an AVC, or that a branded stone with very strict strict standards is the same as a generic I shake my head

.

Those who make such comments:

a) have never seen an AVC

or

b) have lmited understanding of the tools and metrics developed by the AGS (like ASET or forward and reverse ray tracing) or how a diamond''s appearance changes in various lighting conditions

or

c) are really trying to validate thier own purchase decisions and convince themself they made the best decision by influencing others to follow the same path.

2) There are several PS vendors who sell ''Super Ideal'' branded round diamonds and several that sell branded Princess cuts. From personal experience I know this is often an uphill battle for them to justify the premium that must be charged for such stones over the generic ones which can be cut more cheaply and with higher yield. The PS community is one of the few places where there are enough experienced posters who have seen real life comparisons and understand the real visual differences that justify the premium.

So when someone offers their uneducated opinion and hasn''t made this comparison themself or tries to blur the line betwen in terms of light performance between a branded cushion like AVC and generic I take exception to this and correct them.

Light performance is one factor (the most important in my opinion) to judging a diamond''s beauty, it is not the only one. It really doesn''t matter if you line up 100 people who have bought from Bluenile, Leon or ERD and they all give their opinion in a thread about why their cushion''s perform just as well (self validation), it still doesn''t change the fact that the objective reflector technology is telling us quite another story and this does translate to real world appearance differences.

I have long argued making an informed decision should often involves comparing branded and unbranded diamonds in person or at least under multiple lighting conditions in video, the real question should be is the probable premium appropriate(PPA) for all consumers?

(In this thread it clearly wasn''t but I have to wonder if the debate over the light performance differences influenced the OP''s decision?)

I''m one of those people that owns both in rounds. Super ideals, and a few GIA excellent. There comes a point where the visual difference becomes blurred, and the human eye can''t really detect what the tools are saying is the ''better'' diamond. I know this from my experience with rounds, so can''t always justify the difference in price. Is it possible that the same applies to cushions? Even though the ASET image may be better, the observer may not see it in person. It could just be a different flavor so to speak.

CCL ... you get it. Elle, just to be clear the comparison, 99% of the time can''t be likened to comparing a Hearts & Arrows round to a standard AGS Ideal or GIA Excellent with good optical results. The difference there would only be between optical symmetry. In the world of cushions there is no ideal standard in the vintage facet design. So if we were relating it to rounds the comparison is more like comparing an AGS Ideal round to a GIA good/fair in most instances. I believe you would see that difference as 99% of layman can.

All the best,

 

[Rhino]

Hey ccbox,

A sincere congrats to you man. Yes we are passionate here but it is this passion that has helped revolutionize cut grading in rounds and we here have seen the introduction of reflector based technology like ASET introduced when it was never recognized. This passion is what drives guys like me to do what I do and guys like Karl to design the Octavia, a mind blowing Asscher, guys like Paul to cut his Infinity, etc. Just some comments...

Date: 5/23/2010 11:14:06 PM
Author: ccb0x45

Light performance is one factor (the most important in my opinion) to judging a diamond''s beauty, it is not the only one. It really doesn''t matter if you line up 100 people who have bought from Bluenile, Leon or ERD and they all give their opinion in a thread about why their cushion''s perform just as well (self validation), it still doesn''t change the fact that the objective reflector technology is telling us quite another story and this does translate to real world appearance differences.


I have long argued making an informed decision should often involve comparing branded and unbranded diamonds in person or at least under multiple lighting conditions in video, the real question should be is the probable premium appropriate(PPA) for all consumers?


(In this thread it clearly wasn''t but I have to wonder if the debate over the light performance differences influenced the OP''s decision?)

I''ll answer CCL''s question of whether the light performance debate influenced the OP''s decision. Not really it didnt. It is kind of interesting, however I agree with Miss Debby, that they do almost look like different cuts. In the end my GF made the decision, which makes me the happiest because I''d rather her be happy with it since she will *hopefully* be wearing it for the rest of her life, and I''m really just trying to get her what she likes as a symbol of how much I care about her. Her opinion(and she hasnt read all these forums cause I really doubt she cares at all since she is much less analytical than me), was that the August Vintage while very sparkly, looked weird. They did look like two different cuts, the august vintage has very large mains that creates a HUGE lit up bow tie(maltese cross) in the middle, which to her she didnt like the look. The ERD one, each main does light up at different angles(which is why I dont trust the ASET to be honest because I saw it very very carefully and looked for that, because I got the ASET before I looked at it).

I''ve never heard the "weird" designation before but to each his own of course. Over the course of the last decade calling in cushions and inspecting for optics I''m generally going to observe one of 3 optical characteristics off the facets.

The results of leakage.

The results of head/body shadow

Bright reflections of light.

All effects are desireable to some degree but it is the balance of them and the predominance of the last (bright reflections of light) that make for the chemistry in the most beautiful diamonds of all shapes. Perhaps August Vintage looks like a different cut because in the history of vintage faceted diamonds one has not been cut with its precise geometry ... at least purposely, until now. If one reads the history of the round brilliant cut ... all rounds were at one point in time cut with 45 degree crown angles coupled with 45 degree pavilion angles. When the American Ideal Cut was introduced by Henry Morse back in the late 1800''s, with refinement by Tolkowsky and the lengthening of the lower half facets ... this looked like a completely different cut too. Same amount of facets ... different geometry. All in the effort to improve light performance and diamond beauty. I have made my best effort to do the same but not with rounds.

She is going for a very antique style art deco ring, and wanted a diamond that looked antique, and to her the august vintage didn''t really look antique(and she thought it just looked a little strange in general because of the maltese). She wanted it to be big and chunky old style type diamond, and we had looked at many different cushions, and as soon as she looked at that one for 3 minutes she was like, WOW I LOVE IT... and of course we kept looking at it for another half an hour. I really tried to not push her in one direction or another(I kind of did a bit at the beginning but then realized, why?) So I happily let her pick it herself. I could sit here and think about this debate a bunch and worry about the light performance(something I didn''t even know about before looking at diamonds in general), but I think that the rock is bigger, cheaper, extremely bright, and fits extremely well with the very vintage style setting she will be getting(which I think is gonna look pretty great when its done), and I have scoured videos and pictures of august vintage cushions and I just don''t think they look like real vintage stones, they have their own look which I am sure people like(and I like as well), but they are built for this light performance, and they are more expensive because of it.

If you research vintage OMC (old mine cuts) the facet design is right in line ccbox. Is there a visual difference between this and what was cut back in the day or even today? You bet. The beautiful thing is we don''t push anyone in either direction. Whether it be via the net or in store. In fact when we are giving a presentation on cushions in our store we''ll put AVC in a lineup many times and not even tell the client what''s what and just let them pick.

This thread got a bit tiring for me because even if im wrong and there is no politics, I dont see why people who arent affiliated with sellers or have something at stake are SO wrapped up in which one is better on these light performance standards. Its weird because earlier CCL said he/she had bought cushions from ERD and didn''t own any AVCs... so there must have been a reason for it, which im guessing is other factors pushed them towards it because they obviously have one serious love for AVCs, which is great.

CCL does not own an AVC but he has seen it live and appreciates the R&D that went into creating them. His opinion is based on eye witness account plus the research he has put into the subject of cushions. His knowledge of the subject on cushions virtually rivals that of Karl''s on Asscher''s. His fiance prefered the splintery appearance of the modern facet structure and being the good fiance that he is purchased what pleased his ladies eyes most. Smart man.

CCL, as well as myself and other studious prosumers appear strong on subjects we are intimately familiar with because after the years of moving forward in the world of rounds, we are applying the same science and logic to other cuts and it is frustrating at times when people don''t get it or don''t even make an attempt to get it.

LOL ... that''s ok though ... not everyone will.

Mark had a great price, and he let me compare them in person, if GOG would have sent them to be available in person and I could compare them both, maybe it would be different, but they send videos(which is a lot better than other sites), and taking a trip to new york would just add to the price of the diamond plus I would have to get time off work.

We send out AVC''s all the time for people to see live. They are backed with 30 day return policies as well as lifetime trade up and buy back with no stipulations. Did you ask who was helping you?

I just feel like there is a lot of animosity, where as IM RIGHT, your WRONG, but it is a forum so maybe I am not understanding the tone that the writers put out there.

No animosity whatsoever. What is frustrating perhaps and the tension you have witnessed is akin to if someone published an ASET of a GIA "good" vs an AGS "Ideal" and people were extolling the virtues of the GIA good over or equal to the ideal. Larger, cheaper, more carat weight for the money etc. etc. etc. It is inconsistent with the thinking on this forum in general which extols cut quality first (and for good reasons). Also, please ... by no means do not take my commentary in the wrong way towards what you purchased. I would suggest you keep it and move on in getting your setting. Mark is a nice guy as is Dan and i believe they are sincerely trying to find the best for their clients and that should be applauded. Our methods of picking are different and we both represent two entirely different business models via the net. Some lean towards their model and some towards mine. There''s enough for both to go around thank God.

Anyways, like I said before, my girlfriend loved it, she will be wearing it, and I am as happy as can be. All I DIDNT want was to get her something she didnt want and have to hear tiny little complaints later in life or at worst case go through a massive return procedure. I am just happy that I brought her into the process(at some points I wasnt happy about this), because I would have gotten her something COMPLETELY different I think, and while she would have loved it just cause I got it for her, I think the ring she will end up with will be something she can pass down for generations and will be very unique against her friends rings(which in the end she wanted very much).

I am excited to get the setting done(I think the one she picked to replicate is gonna look pretty damn sweet).

And she is happy and you are happy and that''s what counts.

And as for light performance, if that was all I cared about I would have either purchased a round hearts and arrows or the cushion in the ASET I attached below.

Not for nothing but what in the world makes you think this cushion has good light performance? I''d like to see it''s ASET. I bet it has lots of green.

LOL

All the best,

 

[ccb0x45]

Date: 5/24/2010 1:53:41 AM
Author: Rhino
Hey ccbox,


A sincere congrats to you man. Yes we are passionate here but it is this passion that has helped revolutionize cut grading in rounds and we here have seen the introduction of reflector based technology like ASET introduced when it was never recognized. This passion is what drives guys like me to do what I do and guys like Karl to design the Octavia, a mind blowing Asscher, guys like Paul to cut his Infinity, etc. Just some comments...

Date: 5/23/2010 11:14:06 PM

Author: ccb0x45

Light performance is one factor (the most important in my opinion) to judging a diamond's beauty, it is not the only one. It really doesn't matter if you line up 100 people who have bought from Bluenile, Leon or ERD and they all give their opinion in a thread about why their cushion's perform just as well (self validation), it still doesn't change the fact that the objective reflector technology is telling us quite another story and this does translate to real world appearance differences.



I have long argued making an informed decision should often involve comparing branded and unbranded diamonds in person or at least under multiple lighting conditions in video, the real question should be is the probable premium appropriate(PPA) for all consumers?



(In this thread it clearly wasn't but I have to wonder if the debate over the light performance differences influenced the OP's decision?)

I'll answer CCL's question of whether the light performance debate influenced the OP's decision. Not really it didnt. It is kind of interesting, however I agree with Miss Debby, that they do almost look like different cuts. In the end my GF made the decision, which makes me the happiest because I'd rather her be happy with it since she will *hopefully* be wearing it for the rest of her life, and I'm really just trying to get her what she likes as a symbol of how much I care about her. Her opinion(and she hasnt read all these forums cause I really doubt she cares at all since she is much less analytical than me), was that the August Vintage while very sparkly, looked weird. They did look like two different cuts, the august vintage has very large mains that creates a HUGE lit up bow tie(maltese cross) in the middle, which to her she didnt like the look. The ERD one, each main does light up at different angles(which is why I dont trust the ASET to be honest because I saw it very very carefully and looked for that, because I got the ASET before I looked at it).

I've never heard the 'weird' designation before but to each his own of course. Over the course of the last decade calling in cushions and inspecting for optics I'm generally going to observe one of 3 optical characteristics off the facets.


The results of leakage.


The results of head/body shadow


Bright reflections of light.


All effects are desireable to some degree but it is the balance of them and the predominance of the last (bright reflections of light) that make for the chemistry in the most beautiful diamonds of all shapes. Perhaps August Vintage looks like a different cut because in the history of vintage faceted diamonds one has not been cut with its precise geometry ... at least purposely, until now. If one reads the history of the round brilliant cut ... all rounds were at one point in time cut with 45 degree crown angles coupled with 45 degree pavilion angles. When the American Ideal Cut was introduced by Henry Morse back in the late 1800's, with refinement by Tolkowsky and the lengthening of the lower half facets ... this looked like a completely different cut too. Same amount of facets ... different geometry. All in the effort to improve light performance and diamond beauty. I have made my best effort to do the same but not with rounds.

She is going for a very antique style art deco ring, and wanted a diamond that looked antique, and to her the august vintage didn't really look antique(and she thought it just looked a little strange in general because of the maltese). She wanted it to be big and chunky old style type diamond, and we had looked at many different cushions, and as soon as she looked at that one for 3 minutes she was like, WOW I LOVE IT... and of course we kept looking at it for another half an hour. I really tried to not push her in one direction or another(I kind of did a bit at the beginning but then realized, why?) So I happily let her pick it herself. I could sit here and think about this debate a bunch and worry about the light performance(something I didn't even know about before looking at diamonds in general), but I think that the rock is bigger, cheaper, extremely bright, and fits extremely well with the very vintage style setting she will be getting(which I think is gonna look pretty great when its done), and I have scoured videos and pictures of august vintage cushions and I just don't think they look like real vintage stones, they have their own look which I am sure people like(and I like as well), but they are built for this light performance, and they are more expensive because of it.

If you research vintage OMC (old mine cuts) the facet design is right in line ccbox. Is there a visual difference between this and what was cut back in the day or even today? You bet. The beautiful thing is we don't push anyone in either direction. Whether it be via the net or in store. In fact when we are giving a presentation on cushions in our store we'll put AVC in a lineup many times and not even tell the client what's what and just let them pick.

This thread got a bit tiring for me because even if im wrong and there is no politics, I dont see why people who arent affiliated with sellers or have something at stake are SO wrapped up in which one is better on these light performance standards. Its weird because earlier CCL said he/she had bought cushions from ERD and didn't own any AVCs... so there must have been a reason for it, which im guessing is other factors pushed them towards it because they obviously have one serious love for AVCs, which is great.

CCL does not own an AVC but he has seen it live and appreciates the R&D that went into creating them. His opinion is based on eye witness account plus the research he has put into the subject of cushions. His knowledge of the subject on cushions virtually rivals that of Karl's on Asscher's. His fiance prefered the splintery appearance of the modern facet structure and being the good fiance that he is purchased what pleased his ladies eyes most. Smart man.

CCL, as well as myself and other studious prosumers appear strong on subjects we are intimately familiar with because after the years of moving forward in the world of rounds, we are applying the same science and logic to other cuts and it is frustrating at times when people don't get it or don't even make an attempt to get it.

LOL ... that's ok though ... not everyone will.

Mark had a great price, and he let me compare them in person, if GOG would have sent them to be available in person and I could compare them both, maybe it would be different, but they send videos(which is a lot better than other sites), and taking a trip to new york would just add to the price of the diamond plus I would have to get time off work.

We send out AVC's all the time for people to see live. They are backed with 30 day return policies as well as lifetime trade up and buy back with no stipulations. Did you ask who was helping you?

I just feel like there is a lot of animosity, where as IM RIGHT, your WRONG, but it is a forum so maybe I am not understanding the tone that the writers put out there.

No animosity whatsoever. What is frustrating perhaps and the tension you have witnessed is akin to if someone published an ASET of a GIA 'good' vs an AGS 'Ideal' and people were extolling the virtues of the GIA good over or equal to the ideal. Larger, cheaper, more carat weight for the money etc. etc. etc. It is inconsistent with the thinking on this forum in general which extols cut quality first (and for good reasons). Also, please ... by no means do not take my commentary in the wrong way towards what you purchased. I would suggest you keep it and move on in getting your setting. Mark is a nice guy as is Dan and i believe they are sincerely trying to find the best for their clients and that should be applauded. Our methods of picking are different and we both represent two entirely different business models via the net. Some lean towards their model and some towards mine. There's enough for both to go around thank God.

Anyways, like I said before, my girlfriend loved it, she will be wearing it, and I am as happy as can be. All I DIDNT want was to get her something she didnt want and have to hear tiny little complaints later in life or at worst case go through a massive return procedure. I am just happy that I brought her into the process(at some points I wasnt happy about this), because I would have gotten her something COMPLETELY different I think, and while she would have loved it just cause I got it for her, I think the ring she will end up with will be something she can pass down for generations and will be very unique against her friends rings(which in the end she wanted very much).


I am excited to get the setting done(I think the one she picked to replicate is gonna look pretty damn sweet).

And she is happy and you are happy and that's what counts.

And as for light performance, if that was all I cared about I would have either purchased a round hearts and arrows or the cushion in the ASET I attached below.

Not for nothing but what in the world makes you think this cushion has good light performance? I'd like to see it's ASET. I bet it has lots of green.

LOL


All the best,

A couple of points here(I am definitely not skilled enough in using the forum to appropriately write back in line as you have done...)

1. Calling the cut weird was her words, i just relayed them, sorry if that sounded condescending, it wasn't meant to, I thought it looked great, she just isn't a fan of how wide the mains were I don't think. Also size was a big issue for her, I could only afford a 1.5 carat AVC, and the 1.71 I bought was quite a bit bigger in dimensions, and she had looked at many different comparable sizes and didn't want to go smaller than the 1.71(although she would have gladly gone bigger which she didnt fail to tell me...again...and again...)

2. While it may be totally in line with vintage cuts, she was thinking of getting an actual antique ring/estate piece, and after looking at a bunch of different real ones(and deciding on replicating a ring instead), she felt the one from ERD looked the most like the real antique ones she has seen in her searching. That was her eyes and by no means a cold hard fact.

3. I definitely didn't mean to imply GOG wouldn't send us the diamond to view upon request, you guys had excellent customer service, she just decided upon viewing the diamond in the video it wasn't necessary to get it sent out, she said she didn't like how it looked and I wasn't going to argue with her(we do enough of that just finding a place to eat, part of my quest to this whole upcoming marriage thing is learning not to argue with her about what she likes

4. Hearing CCL's story about his wife picking the modern style cushion makes sense. The original question was whether all the light performance affected my decision, and like I said, no it really didn't. My decision was solely based on what she wanted, which is a mixture of her eyes, a picture in her head of what she wants, hormones, and probably what she ate for lunch that day. CCL should probably understand this more than anyone. At the end of the day I think the light performance stuff is interesting and great for picking diamonds for inventory at a store or buying a diamond that you aren't able to view in person, but what she wanted on her ring was mix of different factors, which I am sure CCL understands better than anyone.

5. You are right, like I said I was totally wrong about that idealscope image of that modern cushion, it was me trying to make a failed point, and shows obviously how much I know about light performance/asets in general. The majority of my searching had been done in walk-in jewelry stores which never showed me a single aset.

 

[Cehrabehra]

That last comment is directed toward me, I''m willing to bet. Just because I want to yell from the rooftops that there are 31 flavors doesn''t mean I can deny the quality of any one flavor is amazing. I think the static view environment here has contributed to a narrowing of variety of available cut - I LOVE cuts like the octavia and avc coming out and I don''t wish to speak ANYthing negative about them... all I wish to say is that it''s not the end... there are other cuts and I am worried about people only accepting one. Cushions used to be a wide open venue with dozens of choices and nowadays people are only promoting ONE type and that makes me nervous. Has *nothing* to do with thinking the avc is inferior in any way.. it has to do with valuing the appreciation of many styles regardless of that sometimes small, sometimes negligible performance superiority. It is in Jon''s best interests to want every finger on the planet yearning for a cushion to be wearing an AVC and I don''t knock him that - I like the guy very much and I''m proud of what he has accomplished. But even if the perfect car came out tomorrow it would be sad if every person on the street drove the exact same car. BORING!!!

 

[ccb0x45]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:50:30 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
That last comment is directed toward me, I''m willing to bet. Just because I want to yell from the rooftops that there are 31 flavors doesn''t mean I can deny the quality of any one flavor is amazing. I think the static view environment here has contributed to a narrowing of variety of available cut - I LOVE cuts like the octavia and avc coming out and I don''t wish to speak ANYthing negative about them... all I wish to say is that it''s not the end... there are other cuts and I am worried about people only accepting one. Cushions used to be a wide open venue with dozens of choices and nowadays people are only promoting ONE type and that makes me nervous. Has *nothing* to do with thinking the avc is inferior in any way.. it has to do with valuing the appreciation of many styles regardless of that sometimes small, sometimes negligible performance superiority. It is in Jon''s best interests to want every finger on the planet yearning for a cushion to be wearing an AVC and I don''t knock him that - I like the guy very much and I''m proud of what he has accomplished. But even if the perfect car came out tomorrow it would be sad if every person on the street drove the exact same car. BORING!!!

On this note, her top concerns were definitely:

1. Being Eye Clean and as white as possible

2. Size

3. Not looking like everyone elses ring on the block, she really wanted something different since pretty much all of her friends have a single solitaire style princess cut, and she doesn''t like having anything the same.

4.Frustrating me with her on a whim mind changing and impossible goal setting, I think in an attempt to give me a taste of of what the next 80 years of my life will be like. (Mission accomplished)

 

[Rhino]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:48:34 AM
Author: ccb0x45

A couple of points here(I am definitely not skilled enough in using the forum to appropriately write back in line as you have done...)

1. Calling the cut weird was her words, i just relayed them, sorry if that sounded condescending, it wasn''t meant to, I thought it looked great, she just isn''t a fan of how wide the mains were I don''t think. Also size was a big issue for her, I could only afford a 1.5 carat AVC, and the 1.71 I bought was quite a bit bigger in dimensions, and she had looked at many different comparable sizes and didn''t want to go smaller than the 1.71(although she would have gladly gone bigger which she didnt fail to tell me...again...and again...)

That is cool. What matters is she is happy and if there''s one thing I''ve learned in 25 years of marriage ... whem mama''s happy everyone''s happy!

2. While it may be totally in line with vintage cuts, she was thinking of getting an actual antique ring/estate piece, and after looking at a bunch of different real ones(and deciding on replicating a ring instead), she felt the one from ERD looked the most like the real antique ones she has seen in her searching. That was her eyes and by no means a cold hard fact.

Makes total sense.

3. I definitely didn''t mean to imply GOG wouldn''t send us the diamond to view upon request, you guys had excellent customer service, she just decided upon viewing the diamond in the video it wasn''t necessary to get it sent out, she said she didn''t like how it looked and I wasn''t going to argue with her(we do enough of that just finding a place to eat, part of my quest to this whole upcoming marriage thing is learning not to argue with her about what she likes

No prob. She felt she had enough info to know she didn''t want it. Also makes sense.

4. Hearing CCL''s story about his wife picking the modern style cushion makes sense. The original question was whether all the light performance affected my decision, and like I said, no it really didn''t. My decision was solely based on what she wanted, which is a mixture of her eyes, a picture in her head of what she wants, hormones, and probably what she ate for lunch that day. CCL should probably understand this more than anyone. At the end of the day I think the light performance stuff is interesting and great for picking diamonds for inventory at a store or buying a diamond that you aren''t able to view in person, but what she wanted on her ring was mix of different factors, which I am sure CCL understands better than anyone.

You did the right thing ccbox. My apologies if it came across any other way. I sincerely wish the best for you.

5. You are right, like I said I was totally wrong about that idealscope image of that modern cushion, it was me trying to make a failed point, and shows obviously how much I know about light performance/asets in general. The majority of my searching had been done in walk-in jewelry stores which never showed me a single aset.

I understand. Thanks for taking my post in the right spirit too.

Kindest regards,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:50:30 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
That last comment is directed toward me, I''m willing to bet. Just because I want to yell from the rooftops that there are 31 flavors doesn''t mean I can deny the quality of any one flavor is amazing. I think the static view environment here has contributed to a narrowing of variety of available cut - I LOVE cuts like the octavia and avc coming out and I don''t wish to speak ANYthing negative about them... all I wish to say is that it''s not the end... there are other cuts and I am worried about people only accepting one. Cushions used to be a wide open venue with dozens of choices and nowadays people are only promoting ONE type and that makes me nervous. Has *nothing* to do with thinking the avc is inferior in any way.. it has to do with valuing the appreciation of many styles regardless of that sometimes small, sometimes negligible performance superiority. It is in Jon''s best interests to want every finger on the planet yearning for a cushion to be wearing an AVC and I don''t knock him that - I like the guy very much and I''m proud of what he has accomplished. But even if the perfect car came out tomorrow it would be sad if every person on the street drove the exact same car. BORING!!!

LOL... Cehra.

No. Don''t get me wrong. I do appreciate your 31 flavor analogy and I also appreciate that more than one daimond within one facet design is beautiful. I will still purchase for inventory and seek out for clients chunky cushions that are not AVC''s.

We do this all the time and was always standard procedure.

Let me try and share from my perspective....

When you look at as many cushions as I have over the years you tend to categorize.

The first categorization will be between facet structures. Modern vs Vintage.

Then I break it down into categorization of light performance and yes it impacts beauty in the eye of the beholder. Just like GIA for example categorizes their Excellent from Very Good to Good to Fair to Poor. I think along the same exact lines when I am picking cushions or any shape for that matter. I also value, even more than my own, the feedback of my clients and the consumers whom I am showing diamonds to on a daily basis. Perhaps you may think it is a sin after working with the tools I have and perhaps I don''t appreciate extraneous light leakage or head/body obstruction that contribue to the more than 31 flavors but my thinking is simple really. When I see big facets I want big flash. Period. I''ve personally showed you the modification I made to AVC to make the reflections smaller under the table and that may see the light of day but in the real world of picking cushions, finding them with what I woiuld consider "ideal" or "excellent" light performance ... they are far and few. No need to worry about everyone having an AVC. They are a teeny tiny fraction of what''s out there. I grew tired of hunting as it is not cheap calling in cushion after cushion and finding what I would classify as GIA good to fair performance. I needed consistency in top of the line optics which is why these were born. At the same time I absolutely do appreciate those cushions which are not AVC and have great brightness, fire and sparkle even when it doesn''t do it in the nature that an AVC does (although I admit I am personally biased towards them)

. heh Really though Sara ... when I lay out diamonds in a presentation in our store and vis the net I never try to persuade a person towards any one diamond and always allow them to pick with their eyes. There are a few videos I will shoot purposely with no sound for this very reason.

All the best,

 

[Cehrabehra]

Jon - I am doomed to the role of devil's advocate... if anyone came and bashed your stones I'd be first in line to defend them lol But you don't need any help! So I'm off to save the underdog

ETA - do you know that here in Dalian you can buy DURIAN flavored gelato? All of the markets stink of the stuff and yet they keep it in stock... it tastes absolutely revolting... to *me*

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:48:34 AM
Author: ccb0x45

4. Hearing CCL's story about his wife picking the modern style cushion makes sense. The original question was whether all the light performance affected my decision, and like I said, no it really didn't. My decision was solely based on what she wanted, which is a mixture of her eyes, a picture in her head of what she wants, hormones, and probably what she ate for lunch that day. CCL should probably understand this more than anyone. At the end of the day I think the light performance stuff is interesting and great for picking diamonds for inventory at a store or buying a diamond that you aren't able to view in person, but what she wanted on her ring was mix of different factors, which I am sure CCL understands better than anyone.

I shouldn't speak for CCL but I will. His wife's decision was not solely based on looks. Back when they made the purchase, AVCs were just coming onto the market with a very limited inventory. His wife was literally making a choice of going with a diamond that is 0.5 ct and .8 mm difference in size. This is very significant especially in the ct range they were shopping for. Even for me, I would have went for the bigger one as much as I love the AVC (actually, I probably would have waited until what I wanted became available).

To CCL's point again, he is saying that if your wife saw both diamonds in person - that is the true way of making the selection. I guess the difference is that Mark didn't charge you first to look at the stone while GOG would have???

PS: I highly doubt every one will be sporting an AVC. Perhaps on PS there is a large audience but outside of PS .. I think very few people know about the AVC. I know none of my friends do.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 5/24/2010 8:26:21 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

ETA - do you know that here in Dalian you can buy DURIAN flavored gelato? All of the markets stink of the stuff and yet they keep it in stock... it tastes absolutely revolting... to *me*

I also find Durian disgusting - the smell .. the taste makes me sick. However, my fiance's family absolutely LOVES durian and we spend huge chunks of trips to Asia searching for the best durian.

But this analogy only really applies to the personal preference aspect of this whole argument. If we were talking about the chemical composition of the Durian versus other fruits ... then it is more inline with the discussion here around light performance.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/24/2010 10:35:02 AM
Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 5/24/2010 8:26:21 AM

Author: Cehrabehra


ETA - do you know that here in Dalian you can buy DURIAN flavored gelato? All of the markets stink of the stuff and yet they keep it in stock... it tastes absolutely revolting... to *me*

I also find Durian disgusting - the smell .. the taste makes me sick. However, my fiance''s family absolutely LOVES durian and we spend huge chunks of trips to Asia searching for the best durian.


But this analogy only really applies to the personal preference aspect of this whole argument. If we were talking about the chemical composition of the Durian versus other fruits ... then it is more inline with the discussion here around light performance.

True - but I don''t question the light performance... I question the idea that light performance alone makes it the BEST cut for anyone looking for a cushion. I know I''m not explaining myself well and I feel like I''m on both sides of an argument lol Sorry!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:48:34 AM
Author: ccb0x45


A couple of points here(I am definitely not skilled enough in using the forum to appropriately write back in line as you have done...)

1. Calling the cut weird was her words, i just relayed them, sorry if that sounded condescending, it wasn''t meant to, I thought it looked great, she just isn''t a fan of how wide the mains were I don''t think. Also size was a big issue for her, I could only afford a 1.5 carat AVC, and the 1.71 I bought was quite a bit bigger in dimensions, and she had looked at many different comparable sizes and didn''t want to go smaller than the 1.71(although she would have gladly gone bigger which she didnt fail to tell me...again...and again...)

2. While it may be totally in line with vintage cuts, she was thinking of getting an actual antique ring/estate piece, and after looking at a bunch of different real ones(and deciding on replicating a ring instead), she felt the one from ERD looked the most like the real antique ones she has seen in her searching. That was her eyes and by no means a cold hard fact.

3. I definitely didn''t mean to imply GOG wouldn''t send us the diamond to view upon request, you guys had excellent customer service, she just decided upon viewing the diamond in the video it wasn''t necessary to get it sent out, she said she didn''t like how it looked and I wasn''t going to argue with her(we do enough of that just finding a place to eat, part of my quest to this whole upcoming marriage thing is learning not to argue with her about what she likes

4. Hearing CCL''s story about his wife picking the modern style cushion makes sense. The original question was whether all the light performance affected my decision, and like I said, no it really didn''t. My decision was solely based on what she wanted, which is a mixture of her eyes, a picture in her head of what she wants, hormones, and probably what she ate for lunch that day. CCL should probably understand this more than anyone. At the end of the day I think the light performance stuff is interesting and great for picking diamonds for inventory at a store or buying a diamond that you aren''t able to view in person, but what she wanted on her ring was mix of different factors, which I am sure CCL understands better than anyone.

5. You are right, like I said I was totally wrong about that idealscope image of that modern cushion, it was me trying to make a failed point, and shows obviously how much I know about light performance/asets in general. The majority of my searching had been done in walk-in jewelry stores which never showed me a single aset.

And this, my friend, is the wisest thing that has been said in this whole thread Keep repeating that goal to yourself and you will both be very happy.

One thing to learn about PS is that people are passionate about the techncial aspects of cut and will argue like you would not believe, yet still be friends and respect one another. Hopefully

. We also do not judge others if they make a choice we would not make. Hopefully again

. But this is the intent of PS and all of the heated debate in this thread is just the words of passionate people who love diamonds.

You are allowed to choose a diamond for whatever factors you like. If you loved the diamond you chose because it looked appealing and was, perhaps most importantly, big, then who are we to argue with your choice? You may choose whatever you like, we just hope it is an informed decision. And in your case, it seems that it was!

 

[laine]

Date: 5/24/2010 10:51:51 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
True - but I don't question the light performance... I question the idea that light performance alone makes it the BEST cut for anyone looking for a cushion. I know I'm not explaining myself well and I feel like I'm on both sides of an argument lol Sorry!

Sara--I'm totally with you! The AVC may have the best light performance, but I really prefer the look of the cushion that ccb bought (though I haven't seen either in person, of course). I don't think the comparison of ideal round to a good round is really fair--those two round diamonds are trying to be the same thing, whereas the two cushions are intended to have different looks. Its seems more like comparing an eighternity to a very good round (or ideal round to OEC). The eighternity might have better light performance, but some just like the other better.

I agree that you can state that the AVC has better light performance. That can be supported by fact. That the AVC is a better choice/better diamond is a different, much more subjective issue. It might be better in your opinion, but not in mine. I agree it has better performance, I don't agree its better. Objective vs subjective views.

A Mercedes has better performance that my old Volvo in many, many measurable ways. By many definitions, it is a better car. But, its not better for me. I'd rather have my old Volvo.

 

[Cehrabehra]

!! Laine - thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say

This is the car that sprang to my mind initially in this thread... when I saw the stone they chose!

1954 corvette convertible Do they make faster cars - yup! Cleaner, newer, sleeker cars? Yep! But this car is gorgeous to me

 

[Cehrabehra]

Dreamer - I agree... I think most of us have argued about this or that over the years without any real animosity. At least here in RT! MOST of us anyway lol

 

[missydebby]

Date: 5/24/2010 10:51:51 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 5/24/2010 10:35:02 AM

Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 5/24/2010 8:26:21 AM


Author: Cehrabehra



ETA - do you know that here in Dalian you can buy DURIAN flavored gelato? All of the markets stink of the stuff and yet they keep it in stock... it tastes absolutely revolting... to *me*

I also find Durian disgusting - the smell .. the taste makes me sick. However, my fiance''s family absolutely LOVES durian and we spend huge chunks of trips to Asia searching for the best durian.



But this analogy only really applies to the personal preference aspect of this whole argument. If we were talking about the chemical composition of the Durian versus other fruits ... then it is more inline with the discussion here around light performance.

True - but I don''t question the light performance... I question the idea that light performance alone makes it the BEST cut for anyone looking for a cushion. I know I''m not explaining myself well and I feel like I''m on both sides of an argument lol Sorry!

Date: 5/24/2010 10:51:51 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 5/24/2010 10:35:02 AM

Author: CharmyPoo

Date: 5/24/2010 8:26:21 AM


Author: Cehrabehra



ETA - do you know that here in Dalian you can buy DURIAN flavored gelato? All of the markets stink of the stuff and yet they keep it in stock... it tastes absolutely revolting... to *me*

I also find Durian disgusting - the smell .. the taste makes me sick. However, my fiance''s family absolutely LOVES durian and we spend huge chunks of trips to Asia searching for the best durian.



But this analogy only really applies to the personal preference aspect of this whole argument. If we were talking about the chemical composition of the Durian versus other fruits ... then it is more inline with the discussion here around light performance.

True - but I don''t question the light performance... I question the idea that light performance alone makes it the BEST cut for anyone looking for a cushion. I know I''m not explaining myself well and I feel like I''m on both sides of an argument lol Sorry!

Yeah, I think this is my point also. That''s why I think all the super technical talk can get overwhelming for many OP. I know when I was first looking and putting up pictures, all of the different technical talk really helped me to narrow down the choices, but for me it wasn''t the only consideration.

 

[Phoenix]

Although I don't fully understand all the technical talk (at least not yet), I for one am quite partial to precision-cut stones, having come from a mathematical background and am a Type A personality, so I go ga-ga over diamonds like BGD Sign H&A and I expect I will go ga-ga over GOG AV cushions (when I manage to get my grubby little hands on one!)

I appreciate though that there are others out there who prefer other looks and that's what makes the world go round, IMO.

(and Sara, I LOVE durian as does DH!

)

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 5/23/2010 11:14:06 PM
Author: ccb0x45

Light performance is one factor (the most important in my opinion) to judging a diamond''s beauty, it is not the only one. It really doesn''t matter if you line up 100 people who have bought from Bluenile, Leon or ERD and they all give their opinion in a thread about why their cushion''s perform just as well (self validation), it still doesn''t change the fact that the objective reflector technology is telling us quite another story and this does translate to real world appearance differences.


I have long argued making an informed decision should often involve comparing branded and unbranded diamonds in person or at least under multiple lighting conditions in video, the real question should be is the probable premium appropriate(PPA) for all consumers?


(In this thread it clearly wasn''t but I have to wonder if the debate over the light performance differences influenced the OP''s decision?)

I''ll answer CCL''s question of whether the light performance debate influenced the OP''s decision. Not really it didnt. It is kind of interesting, however I agree with Miss Debby, that they do almost look like different cuts. In the end my GF made the decision, which makes me the happiest because I''d rather her be happy with it since she will *hopefully* be wearing it for the rest of her life, and I''m really just trying to get her what she likes as a symbol of how much I care about her. Her opinion(and she hasnt read all these forums cause I really doubt she cares at all since she is much less analytical than me), was that the August Vintage while very sparkly, looked weird. They did look like two different cuts, the august vintage has very large mains that creates a HUGE lit up bow tie(maltese cross) in the middle, which to her she didnt like the look.

That is a very good reason not to go for an AVC if you don''t like that maltese cross appearance! Just to point out though the physical facet structure and size are quite similar between both generic and AVC (major difference would be LW ratio and shape outline), if you were to backlight both (to just view physical facets) you will be surprised at how similar they really are. The main differences are in the angles and how they work together, this is something you can''t see easily from the physical facet structure but can easily from viewing the sizes and phase of the virtual facets(which areas are lit up upon lighting the crown from above).

What you also may not appreciate is that in the high magnification videos Rhino maked the virtual facets look huge, in person in a diamond 6 - 7mm they are not huge at all. When I viewed a 1.15Ct(6.25mm width) AVC in the appraisor''s office my wife and I both wished the diamond was bigger to really appreciate the size of those mains. The large chunky facets become much more impressive and noticeable in larger diamonds.

Also you should realize Rhino does not often tilt the diamond in the diamond dock in his videos, whereas in real life conditions the light source is not uniform and the diamond is tilting, both of these factors will combine so that one rarely sees a completely symmetric and bright cross, its just that the AVC remains much brighter under the table under a larger variety of conditions. If you want to see evidence of this take a look at these photographs in this thread of ECF''s AVC cushion they show how the mains are broken up depending upon the lighting.

The ERD one, each main does light up at different angles(which is why I dont trust the ASET to be honest because I saw it very very carefully and looked for that, because I got the ASET before I looked at it).

First and foremost I should point out that the ASET image you posted on your stone was badly taken. ERD needs to work on this more, the kaleidoscope of colors under the table where the pavillion mains are shown should not be there, all three colors are mixed together with black whereas each area and set of virtual facets should have a defined color instead. This can make a diamond appear much worse than it really is.

In addition from a sarin scan (if well taken) and Diamcalc one can simulate the ASET which is quite useful to see what will happen to the image upon tilting the diamond in each direction. The faceup ASET view is often (but not always) very representative of the appearance you will see even upon modest tilting (15 degrees in each direction).

She is going for a very antique style art deco ring, and wanted a diamond that looked antique, and to her the august vintage didn''t really look antique(and she thought it just looked a little strange in general because of the maltese). She wanted it to be big and chunky old style type diamond, and we had looked at many different cushions, and as soon as she looked at that one for 3 minutes she was like, WOW I LOVE IT... and of course we kept looking at it for another half an hour. I really tried to not push her in one direction or another(I kind of did a bit at the beginning but then realized, why?) So I happily let her pick it herself. I could sit here and think about this debate a bunch and worry about the light performance(something I didn''t even know about before looking at diamonds in general), but I think that the rock is bigger, cheaper, extremely bright, and fits extremely well with the very vintage style setting she will be getting(which I think is gonna look pretty great when its done), and I have scoured videos and pictures of august vintage cushions and I just don''t think they look like real vintage stones, they have their own look which I am sure people like(and I like as well), but they are built for this light performance, and they are more expensive because of it.

You are quite correct again and another excellent observation, due to the high symmetry in the AVCs and big in phase pavillion mains and very often very square less rounded outlines they have a more modern look. I did a poll in this thread and the results were very mixed many preferred true antiques over AVCs see here.

This thread got a bit tiring for me because even if im wrong and there is no politics, I dont see why people who arent affiliated with sellers or have something at stake are SO wrapped up in which one is better on these light performance standards.

The PS community is driven by those who are very passionate about diamods. I donate my time here to teach and to learn, I have learned so much from both vendors that were considered here so I take pleasure participaing and in educating others. This debate goes far beyond your purchase decision which after reading this post seems like a very analytical and informed one to me, and is far beyond what I would expect most first time buyers to be able to do without seeing the comparison of both diamonds in person. In the 9 months since the AVC was first sold to the public I have never seen someone challenge its light performance as compared to a generic 8 main and that i why this thread has gone on so long.

Its weird because earlier CCL said he/she had bought cushions from ERD and didn''t own any AVCs... so there must have been a reason for it, which im guessing is other factors pushed them towards it because they obviously have one serious love for AVCs, which is great.

I think the AVC is a very well cut and designed diamond and I appreciate the design, as a man I wouldn''t say I love any diamond nor would I ever wear one my hand.
You can read about our story here but keep in mind I gave my wife a choice between a 1.59 Ct modern 8 main and a 1.15 Ct AVC not the most fair comparison for most women, but this was at a time when AVCs were not available in the same range of sizes and colors.

However, I must say as I have been studying diamonds with a particular interest in cushions I have noticed that her diamond performs less than optimally outside of strong jewelry store lights or the office lights of our appraisor (this correlates well with the ASET image I only received after making the purchase). I have grown a much greater appreciation for why a diamonda designed with optimal light performance (like an AVC) are quite superior in a wider range of lighting conditions especially in the absence of spot lighting, secondary sources of light like white walls, or when the diamond is dirty or set in such a way that the pavillion and girdle are covered. The whole problem with seeing ASET green in unset diamonds is that those areas will only return light to the viewer when there is low angle light reaching the crown (for example light bouncing off white walls) otherwise those areas can be just as dead as areas of leakage where only the most common overhead lighting is available.


Mark had a great price, and he let me compare them in person, if GOG would have sent them to be available in person and I could compare them both, maybe it would be different, but they send videos(which is a lot better than other sites), and taking a trip to new york would just add to the price of the diamond plus I would have to get time off work.

If your decision was Price, Color or based on Size (not carat weight but measurements) than those are definitely valid reasons for going with a generic.
It is too bad you were not presented with the option to call in an AVC to an appraisor prior to purchase like we did, if you had spoken to Jon you might have been able to do this.


I just feel like there is a lot of animosity, where as IM RIGHT, your WRONG, but it is a forum so maybe I am not understanding the tone that the writers put out there.

Anyways, like I said before, my girlfriend loved it, she will be wearing it, and I am as happy as can be. All I DIDNT want was to get her something she didnt want and have to hear tiny little complaints later in life or at worst case go through a massive return procedure. I am just happy that I brought her into the process(at some points I wasnt happy about this), because I would have gotten her something COMPLETELY different I think, and while she would have loved it just cause I got it for her, I think the ring she will end up with will be something she can pass down for generations and will be very unique against her friends rings(which in the end she wanted very much).

My wife also loves her diamond and would never let me trade or upgrade it. She loves it not because it is the most beautiful diamond but because I gave it to her. This is a major reason why I find that opinions given by some women in this forum are not as critical or analytic as I would like. Diamonds are inherently beautiful so its far too easy I think for women to "fall in love" with their diamonds and ignore the flaws. This "falling in love" can often result in weak and often misleading advice to those trying to make a more rational and calculated decision. However to the wearer of the diamond it is perfect and there is no need to rethink a decisions or to replace it no matter what other choices are available.

I am excited to get the setting done(I think the one she picked to replicate is gonna look pretty damn sweet). And as for light performance, if that was all I cared about I would have either purchased a round hearts and arrows or the cushion in the ASET I attached below.

As others have commented the image you posted an Idealscope image and this would not likely be a more promising diamond than the one you bought or an AVC due to the smaller Virtual Facets. We really need the enhanced resolution and information available from an ASET to judge fancy shapes.

On a final note, can someone tell me why this smiley is licking off its own face? It is creeping me out:

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 5/24/2010 11:25:32 AM
Author: laine

Date: 5/24/2010 10:51:51 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
True - but I don''t question the light performance... I question the idea that light performance alone makes it the BEST cut for anyone looking for a cushion. I know I''m not explaining myself well and I feel like I''m on both sides of an argument lol Sorry!

Sara--I''m totally with you! The AVC may have the best light performance, but I really prefer the look of the cushion that ccb bought (though I haven''t seen either in person, of course). I don''t think the comparison of ideal round to a good round is really fair--those two round diamonds are trying to be the same thing, whereas the two cushions are intended to have different looks. Its seems more like comparing an eighternity to a very good round (or ideal round to OEC). The eighternity might have better light performance, but some just like the other better.

I agree that you can state that the AVC has better light performance. That can be supported by fact. That the AVC is a better choice/better diamond is a different, much more subjective issue. It might be better in your opinion, but not in mine. I agree it has better performance, I don''t agree its better. Objective vs subjective views.

A Mercedes has better performance that my old Volvo in many, many measurable ways. By many definitions, it is a better car. But, its not better for me. I''d rather have my old Volvo.

Thank-you and that summarizes most of the debates that we have here on pricescope which are often based on a line being blurred and it not being clear which category the comments fall under.

Beauty = Subjective
Interpretation of Reflector Technology = Mostly Objective

If each post made it BRUTALLY OBVIOUS which comments were subjective beauty or which ones were meant to be objective interpretations of reflector technology we would probably argue much less here.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/25/2010 12:07:45 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

My wife also loves her diamond and would never let me trade or upgrade it. She loves it not because it is the most beautiful diamond but because I gave it to her. This is a major reason why I find that opinions given by some women in this forum are not as critical or analytic as I would like. Diamonds are inherently beautiful so its far too easy I think for women to ''fall in love'' with their diamonds and ignore the flaws. This ''falling in love'' can often result in weak and often misleading advice to those trying to make a more rational and calculated decision. However to the wearer of the diamond it is perfect and there is no need to rethink a decisions or to replace it no matter what other choices are available.

CCL while your point is a good one re: emotional aspects of diamonds, and a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree, I must take issue with the sweeping statement about the "opinions given by some women in this forum" being "not as critical or analytic" as you would like. I think you can easily make that statement without reference to gender. Your observation about thel link between gender and diamond irrationality is an illusory correlation: Apart from the people in the trade, and maybe 5 regular consumer posters, *all* of the regular posters in RT are women. Therefore, it makes complete sense that if you sample the comments of PSers and find some percentage -- let''s say 20% -- to be too emotional, then those comments will come from women most of the time. As do most of the highly rational comments, by the same measure of probability

.

 

[missydebby]

Agreed with Dreamer. I am not influenced by the numbers alone, but it has nothing to do with my lack o nuts, and does not indicate lack of intelligence or reasoning ability. I am influenced by different factors than a very analytical person.

There are 4 basic personality types for both men and women: Expressive, Driver, Amiable, and Analytical. One type or a combo of 2 is inherent in all of us. (ie Driver/Analytical) When I directed sales long ago, I often noticed it was hardest for Analytical types to sell to Expressives or Amiables. They were always push push pushing the numbers as empirical truth, but that alone often wasn''t enough if the client was either Expressive or Amiable. (They would come to me and be like "Gah!!!! I gave them all the evidence they need... why isn''t that -insert expletive- buying?!?)

Actually, that is part of what I see in how all of these cushion threads end up. The numbers people keep hammering home that the numbers don''t lie, and the rest is so subjective as to not matter, or at least not matter as much. The more touchy feely types keep reiterating that for all the numbers, what speaks to your eyes and heart and makes you sigh is of at least the same value.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 5/25/2010 1:46:48 AM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 5/25/2010 12:07:45 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

CCL while your point is a good one re: emotional aspects of diamonds, and a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree, I must take issue with the sweeping statement about the 'opinions given by some women in this forum' being 'not as critical or analytic' as you would like. I think you can easily make that statement without reference to gender. Your observation about thel link between gender and diamond irrationality is an illusory correlation: Apart from the people in the trade, and maybe 5 regular consumer posters, *all* of the regular posters in RT are women. Therefore, it makes complete sense that if you sample the comments of PSers and find some percentage -- let's say 20% -- to be too emotional, then those comments will come from women most of the time. As do most of the highly rational comments, by the same measure of probability

.

I am a woman and I am highly critical and analytical. Perhaps even too much ...

MissyDebby - Are you familiar with Myers Briggs? I am a ENTJ and ENTF - it appears I am ENTJ at work and ENTF in my personal life.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/25/2010 1:46:48 AM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 5/25/2010 12:07:45 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

My wife also loves her diamond and would never let me trade or upgrade it. She loves it not because it is the most beautiful diamond but because I gave it to her. This is a major reason why I find that opinions given by some women in this forum are not as critical or analytic as I would like. Diamonds are inherently beautiful so its far too easy I think for women to 'fall in love' with their diamonds and ignore the flaws. This 'falling in love' can often result in weak and often misleading advice to those trying to make a more rational and calculated decision. However to the wearer of the diamond it is perfect and there is no need to rethink a decisions or to replace it no matter what other choices are available.

CCL while your point is a good one re: emotional aspects of diamonds, and a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree, I must take issue with the sweeping statement about the 'opinions given by some women in this forum' being 'not as critical or analytic' as you would like. I think you can easily make that statement without reference to gender. Your observation about thel link between gender and diamond irrationality is an illusory correlation: Apart from the people in the trade, and maybe 5 regular consumer posters, *all* of the regular posters in RT are women. Therefore, it makes complete sense that if you sample the comments of PSers and find some percentage -- let's say 20% -- to be too emotional, then those comments will come from women most of the time. As do most of the highly rational comments, by the same measure of probability

.

Also CCL concerning your feelings that ' opinions given by some women are not as critical or analytical as you would like', its a forum, not some experts only cushion advisory service. It is not a case where only those with high levels of knowledge are permitted to answer.

 

[yssie]

-del-