Casey Anthony trial...

[Italiahaircolor]

It's very surprising right now, watching the experts who are all--to one degree or another--accepting what this Cruise/Holloway woman is saying as gospel. I really thought they were smarter than that .

So, she was visibly shaken on the stand, which I guess comes off to them as "credible" but I don't care about that...I look at her story, the story that has changed numerous times. This is the woman who said, with a straight face, she has no criminal record...oopps...except for that time she was pulled over, and ended up arguing with the PO and got arrested and had a mug shot (AKA a criminal record). This is the woman who said to the FBI "no, I swear, we never had an affair" but throw a little money at her and all of a sudden it's "well, yes, actually we slept together 6 times". This is a woman with multiple names, 4 phones, who quoted Baez verbatim one day, and then changed it the next. I don't believe her as far as I could throw her...and believe me, that's not all that far. Maybe it was a flirtation in the middle of all that madness that went a little too far...maybe George lead her on and then did an about face in the 11th hour...or maybe it's all about the cold, hard cash.

 

[JewelFreak]

maybe it's all about the cold, hard cash

Yup. She came across to me as a dumb little weasel but who knows what the jury will think. Doesn't matter -- having an affair doesn't make anyone a murderer. Her statements even on the stand as to what George said were all over the map. Bet they'll discount her altogether.

There was some discussion today about whether Baez will be allowed to talk about his drowning, etc., fictions in his summation, since he offered no concrete evidence of anything. Judge Perry has given both sides plenty of latitude because it's a death penalty case & so may allow some, but not all, of Baez's silliness. Or he could allow it but instruct the jury that they must find facts to back up claims. Ought to be interesting....

I cracked up at the Judge raking that dumb kid over the coals! He handled it beautifully. Embarrassed the slob to the max in front of the whole country. And he'll have to spend almost a week in the slammer, what a hoot! The size of the fine surprised me -- super job, JP!

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Baez made the mistake of promising something he couldn't supply. The experts were saying they expect objections galore, because the proof of the drowning, the proof for the molestation isn't in evidence. Let's hope JP says they had the opportunity to form their case, and in closing, may only work within the guides of what they laid out during trial--nothing more, nothing else.

It was just brought up again, in Florida, if you're found guilty of aggravated child abuse that results in death, it is a 1st degree murder punishable by death. WOO freaking HOO. We have a chance people, we have a chance! We don't need the premeditation per say, of course it wouldn't hurt, but there is still a loop hole for the jury to say 'give this girl the needle' with reason and cause.

::fingers crossed::

 

[mary poppins]

Just to clarify, Krystal Holloway goes by the name River Cruz (Hispanic spelling) not River Cruise (as in we went on a cruise) because her father called her River and her mother's maiden name is Cruz. Supposedly that's all. Sounds like a stripper name, but she definitely doesn't look like stripper material.

The following charges are pending against Casey Anthony:

* First-degree murder
* Aggravated child abuse
* Aggravated manslaughter of a child
* 4 counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer:
o That she worked at Universal Orlando in 2008,
o That she left Caylee with a babysitter named Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez,
o That she told Jeffrey Hopkins and Juliette Lewis that Caylee was missing,
o That she received a phone call from Caylee on July 15, 2008.

The prosecution has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable the statutory elements of each charge. The jury must determine that each element of a particular crime is met before convicting. Emotions are flying high among commentators on PS and elsewhere, but it just boils down to the facts that can be presented and the law. The prosecution doesn't have much, if any, direct connections here. It's all suppositions and inferences. The prosecution is asking the jury to make a lot of leaps based on gaps in facts. Should be interesting to see what happens, especially with Cindy's testimony about the timing of internet searches of chloroform in light of her employer's records.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Just to clarify, Krystal Holloway goes by the name River Cruz (Hispanic spelling) not River Cruise (as in we went on a cruise) because her father called her River and her mother's maiden name is Cruz. Supposedly that's all. Sounds like a stripper name, but she definitely doesn't look like stripper material.

The following charges are pending against Casey Anthony:

* First-degree murder
* Aggravated child abuse
* Aggravated manslaughter of a child
* 4 counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer:
o That she worked at Universal Orlando in 2008,
o That she left Caylee with a babysitter named Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez,
o That she told Jeffrey Hopkins and Juliette Lewis that Caylee was missing,
o That she received a phone call from Caylee on July 15, 2008.

The prosecution has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable the statutory elements of each charge. The jury must determine that each element of a particular crime is met before convicting. Emotions are flying high among commentators on PS and elsewhere, but it just boils down to the facts that can be presented and the law. The prosecution doesn't have much, if any, direct connections here. It's all suppositions and inferences. The prosecution is asking the jury to make a lot of leaps based on gaps in facts. Should be interesting to see what happens, especially with Cindy's testimony about the timing of internet searches of chloroform in light of her employer's records.

With all due respect, most of what you just mentioned has been discussed and highlighted in the 10+ pages prior to this, including a legal flow chart laying out what the charges are and what the penalties of said charges could be if the jury concludes her guilty of the various crimes. I would considered us all well versed on those issues, emotions aside.

Where you see giant leaps, I see stepping stones. We certainly don't have to agree on that, this case has always been circumstantial--no one was expected the smoking gun, Perry Mason moment.

But, in my opinion, the the prosecution has laid out a compelling case where the nuts and bolts do fit together and create a plausible scenario, in which no one BUT Casey Anthony had the opportunity or vested interest in seeing this little girl dead. The only vertical leaps, again in my opinion, were posed by the defense--and they never followed through.

Now, let's address the emotional aspects of this case and the effect it's had on the people following it--myself, obviously, included. Let us not forget that a two year old child was duct taped, triple bagged, and thrown in a swamp where animals gnawed on her bones for six months, all the while her own mother was in hot body contests, crying about being in prison, getting tattoo's and holing up in her boyfriends bed. Someone needs to be emotional about this, because the child's own mother is not. This case needs to remain visceral for people, so that the real atrocity of this crime isn't lost in the sensationalism of it. People are angry, furious that this little girl's life amounted to nothing more than a bag of garbage on the side of the road. It's hard not to be emotional about that, and those are the facts, no matter what side you fall on.

The way I look at it is this...

The prosecution didn't care who killed Caylee Anthony, their only goal, only motivation, was to figure out who that person was, and hold them accountable--as they should. They never went out on a witch hunt, they never framed Casey or invented evidence against her. All they took was what was handed to them by Casey's own actions. Their only goal was to tell the story of the evidence, lay it out for the Jury to decide. All of that pointed exclusively to Caylee Anthony's own mother, which is why she is on trial and not anyone else.

Meanwhile, you have the defense, who has put everyone BUT Casey Anthony on trial. They've never offered one solid reason, with a bit of truth to back it up, for why this girl lied, evaded the police, and never once attempted to get JUSTICE for her daughter. Sure, they made allegations, the whole while knowing they never had to legally defend them. If you want to discuss giant leaps, lets start there.

If this had been an organic accident, something tragic but avoidable with no corruption behind it, Caylee Anthony's story would have become a cautionary tale of pool safety. Parent's would have taken away from her death that they need to be accountable and responsible when they have a pool in the backyard. That's all. But that's not this. And it's insulting (again with the emotions) to say this was an accident, essentially of Caylee's own doing, by playing where she shouldn't have been playing.

 

[mrhand]

Getting emotional about this is one thing, but buying the sensational books, watching the moronic pundits (I'm talking to YOU Nancy Grace) and all the other crap associated case just makes you a sucker and other people rich.

What are the addicts going to do when the trial is over? The good news is that Big Brother is starting up again. Maybe you can get your fix by staring at strangers 24x7.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Getting emotional about this is one thing, but buying the sensational books, watching the moronic pundits (I'm talking to YOU Nancy Grace) and all the other crap associated case just makes you a sucker and other people rich.

What are the addicts going to do when the trial is over? The good news is that Big Brother is starting up again. Maybe you can get your fix by staring at strangers 24x7.

You think following a trial and staying on top of current events makes someone a sucker? I like to think it makes them informed.

And, for the record, I've never watched a single episode of Big Brother .

 

[mrhand]

Please. Peole are following this trial for entertainment. And the media is certainly willing to sell it.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

No, sorry. Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I've watched the trial, so I fall into that "mass media" demographic you're speaking of. And, let me tell you, there is very little about this trial that is "entertaining"...most of it, the forensic part especially, was incredibly bland and difficult to understand, I now know more about blow flies then I ever intended too.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that, no, people aren't looking to make a buck off this case. OF COURSE there are people depraved enough to do. But the experts? Eh, no. It's their job, and this just happens to be what's going on in their professional world.

 

[dragonfly411]

Mrhand - unfortunately some people may be, but not all people are following this trial for entertainment value. Those of us who have lived in FL and watched it from the beginning are somewhat emotionally invested. Even people throughout the nation who have seen what has happened to this little girl want to know that justice will be done. The mother is cold and has not cared about the death of her own child. People like that need to be kept out of society, for everyone's safety. She could kill one of her own parents, a sibling, or innocents, esp if she's willing to show no emotion over her own daughter.

Perhaps you, or others, find entertainment value in watching strangers' lives and seeing horrible things happen to them*, since you seem to be so on top of the reality programming schedules, but some of us actually want to know that something will happen to a woman whose daughter ended up in a swamp in a garbage bag with her body being eaten.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

So...during this delay, the corespondents are really taking the opportunity to dissect the last day in court and resting for the defense. Most of them seem surprised that Baez would close this case talking about dead animals. Of all the impressions to leave a jury with, to haunt them with...dead pets?

I admit, it's compelling, but I think it was backwards. From where I'm sitting, it seemed more like a prosecution home run rather than a defense home run. It lined up, pretty neatly, in terms of what Casey was exposed to when it came to death and dying and burial. It also gave credence to Kiomarie's claims that when Casey and she and another friend were little girls, they took a dead hamster to the swamp, put them it in a plastic bag with a heart sticker and buried it. Those were Casey deep rooted "go to" places where the dead were diposed, her comfort zone, when digging the hole in the back yard didn't work...the swamp was plan B.

And...since this is on my mind, and being discussed...am I the only one who finds it disturbing how many animals have died in that household? I know, personally, I've had dogs my whole life--and yes, some of them have passed due to old age, but no where near that number. The issue is being raised that it's possible Casey viewed Caylee as nothing more than a pet. Something cute and sweet and fun, but easily dispatched.

 

[dragonfly411]

Italia - Your thoughts on Casey's views could be true.

I don't know that I agree with the number of Animal deaths. In my 25 years my pets have run as follows:7 dogs died of varying reasons including old age, skin allergies, getting out of the yard and getting hit (one jumped our 5 foot fence regularly), parvo. 2 cats, one snakebit and one old age. a parakeet with a respiratory infection. 4 horses cushings disease, colic, old age, arthritis. Those were just the horses that I owned. At my old barn we had 4 die of colic 3 of old age 2 of lightning and 1 from head trauma.

We have two dogs in majorly old age and three horses in old age right now. All of those we've had since they were younger. Unfortunate things seem to happen with animals that are sometimes beyond our control. That being said, without investigation we'll never know whether this might have been the case in their household, but I do think that how you view animals depends greatly on how you are raised and if she was raised to view animals as objects, and with the way her mind works, she might have viewed her daughter in the same way.

 

[JewelFreak]

Their pets are a distraction. To be fair, they buried them with a bit of ceremony & for at least one, got a little memorial stone. Doesn't sound like viewing them as objects.

But I sure agree there is no "leap of faith" here in the prosecution's case. It's as good as any circumstantial case -- and most are that, since killers aren't prone to asking someone to come watch them do it. Even with the murderer's fingerprints in the victim's blood, you've got a case depending on circumstance. Each individual element alone is not enough to convict. But put together, all of them build a wall that will stand up.

Emotion may be strong, Mary Poppins, but its reasons have been eloquently explained. Anybody watching Casey throughout this trial has to agree that she's chilling: tearless face buried in kleenex while the jury is present; smiling, laughing, chatting cheerfully when they aren't. The only genuine tears I saw were when her brother testified about a subject that made her feel sorry for herself.

A sad fact about trials is that the victim is reduced to a thing, described in various degrees of grossness by testimony. This was a tiny girl whose mother admitted never wanting her, who was at the very least drugged -- as she had been, apparently, almost since birth because she was in the way -- & left in a hot car to die. Emotion cannot be allowed to lead to a lynching but this is far from that. Follow the stepping stones laid out by the evidence; they lead to no one else but Casey.

--- Laurie

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I don't think George or Cindy, or maybe Lee, viewed the animals as objects. Casey, however, is a different bag of nuts. I have a hard believing if she mourn her own child, she'd mourn a pet.

Anyone watching today? Cindy was pretty much called out. She was at work, computer records prove it...she was stupid to think she'd get away with lying about it at this late date. The prosecution has done nothing BUT take lies apart, why she thought they'd stop now mystifies me.

 

[dragonfly411]

I don't think George or Cindy, or maybe Lee, viewed the animals as objects. Casey, however, is a different bag of nuts. I have a hard believing if she mourn her own child, she'd mourn a pet.

Anyone watching today? Cindy was pretty much called out. She was at work, computer records prove it...she was stupid to think she'd get away with lying about it at this late date. The prosecution has done nothing BUT take lies apart, why she thought they'd stop now mystifies me.

GOOD.

 

[Pandora II]

Quick question here on US appeal parameters.

If C is found guilty and gets the DP, does she automatically have the right to appeal and get another trial or only if there is real evidence to warrant one.

If she gets LWP then would she progress to appeals?

We don't have capital punishment in the UK so I don't know how it would work if we did, but when we did have it the sentence was carried out pretty promptly after the end of the trial.

It seems that if you are convicted in the USA then you spend an awfully long time on death-row before the sentence is carried out and sometimes actually get as far as the execution cell before being granted an appeal etc. Although many of these people have committed truly heinous crimes, it doesn't strike me as a very humane way for society to act. It also seems like a huge amount of taxpayers money must get spent on all the appeals etc.

ETA: please don't read any of my comments as a criticism or anything of that nature (was hard wording my questions) - I am truly interested in the answers.

Just to add, I am 50/50 on capital punishment, mainly because it annoys me having to pay to keep some people in prison for ever. But then I also look at miscarriages of justice in the past and think it is better not to execute 10 guilty men if it means executing one guilty one.

 

[mary poppins]

Great day for the prosecution today. Solidified a lot of details, tied up some loose ends that were very damning. Casey looked like a sad puppy with head hanging down. Looks like reality is finally hitting her.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

Now, let's address the emotional aspects of this case and the effect it's had on the people following it--myself, obviously, included. Let us not forget that a two year old child was duct taped, triple bagged, and thrown in a swamp where animals gnawed on her bones for six months, all the while her own mother was in hot body contests, crying about being in prison, getting tattoo's and holing up in her boyfriends bed. Someone needs to be emotional about this, because the child's own mother is not. This case needs to remain visceral for people, so that the real atrocity of this crime isn't lost in the sensationalism of it. People are angry, furious that this little girl's life amounted to nothing more than a bag of garbage on the side of the road. It's hard not to be emotional about that, and those are the facts, no matter what side you fall on.

I HOPE, but doubt, that Cindy Anthony will be charged with perjury. In the end people will say "What do you expect, she lost her grandchild, she wanted to save her child". I'm hoping she is charged because to me it's very obvious Casey learned to lie from her mother. AND, Casey WANTED TO PUT CAYLEE UP FOR ADOPTION but bowed to Cindy's pressure. How's that working for you, Cindy?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If Cindy wanted Casey to have the baby, SHE should have taken the mother role and raised the child since Casey did not want her. That is where I think Cindy failed. The defense surely was dumb to let her take the blame for the computer searches when it was so easily revealed as a lie.

It doesn't look like those jurors are going to make it home for the 4th. I really feel for them.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Regardless of what is found at the end of the trial--DP, LWoP or the like--she will have the opportunity to appeal. However, in the United States, appeals have to be based on merit, it's not simply a "do over" to get a more favorable sentence. You may hear things like "inadequate legal counsel" being thrown around, or you may have noticed many "objections" going on the record, those are the merits for an appeal. With the DP particularly, the merits are looked at more closely, but they have to be proven, that's the key. Casey Anthony will not automatically get a new trial at this point if she is found guilt, she will go through the appeal process and have to prove that somewhere along the way, the courts got it wrong or if new evidence is found in the case that significantly changes this, then and only then will she be granted a new trial.

Let's say that, yes, Casey is sentenced to death. She will automatically get a stay of execution, meaning that her sentence will be held until it can be reviewed by the appeals court, essentially an automatic appeal as opposed to counseling filing for one on her behalf, as is the norm in other cases with lesser sentences. If the sentence is found to be reasonable, the stay is then lifted and counsel will have to file further appeals manually.

That last minute Hail Mary phone call you were referencing, when the person is in the execution chamber and gets that call from the Governor, that is not an appeal, it is another stay of excruciation. Basically, this means the Governor that state can use his/her clout to put a hold the death sentence. It will temporary stop it from happening, and does not mean she will not be executed at a later date. This tends to happen a lot depending on the Governor's political affiliations, what does his party believe in--it's also common during election years to use that discretion to please his state. It's a very political thing.

There is also clemency. This can be granted, again, by a Governor or President and it's the power to commute the sentence of death to a lesser penalty, such as LWoP. In IL, where I live, we had the DP for a very long time. Our Governor, George Ryan, commuted all the DP sentences before leaving office when his term was up. It was highly contested and upset a lot of people who felt those on death row deserved to be there for a reason. But, that's just an example of that.

Yes, the DP does take a long time to be carried out in the United States...according to the legal flow chart, it said somewhere around 15 years. A prisoner get's a set amount of appeals that they can exhaust before the sentence of death is carried out. It takes a long time to get through those.

 

[Pandora II]

Thanks Italia, that explains it all very well.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

If Cindy wanted Casey to have the baby, SHE should have taken the mother role and raised the child since Casey did not want her. That is where I think Cindy failed. The defense surely was dumb to let her take the blame for the computer searches when it was so easily revealed as a lie.

It doesn't look like those jurors are going to make it home for the 4th. I really feel for them.

The relationship between Cindy and Casey was super contentious. Casey, I believe, used Caylee as a tool to keep Cindy in check. I don't think, whether Casey wanted the baby or not, she would have never allowed her mother to get within a millimeter of taking her away. It was a constant battle of wills between the two of them, Casey wasn't forfeiting her child to her mother. Not in a million years. And for Cindy to take that role, Casey would have had to allow that.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Great day for the prosecution today. Solidified a lot of details, tied up some loose ends that were very damning. Casey looked like a sad puppy with head hanging down. Looks like reality is finally hitting her.

Are you talking about the end, when the Jury was dismissed? She was reading something. But, I agree, there was something frantic about her eyes today.

 

[JewelFreak]

Pandora, it's different in each state, but a death penalty gets an automatic appeal in every state I can think of. As far as I know, a new trial is granted only if 1) the higher court finds errors in judge's handling of the case, 2) for ineffective counsel, not likely here, 3) if new evidence comes up that was not available at time of trial -- & some courts aren't real sympathetic to this one. Most states are very reluctant to carry out the death penalty -- in California I swear you can die of old age before being executed. Texas & Florida seem to get to it in a much shorter time than other states, especially Texas.

I'm for the death penalty in cases where evidence is incontrovertible, as with DNA, etc. When you decide to kill another human being, you should know that you will pay the ultimate price yourself. It's a sin and a crime. I don't see why we should give life, at our expense, to someone who purposely took it from another. Murder is a choice. Worse, there's always the possibility that, however long the sentence, a bleeding-heart governor or legislature will come along in a decade or two & let the slob out because his mother slapped him around when he was little. It has happened.

In this case I'm on the fence. Life w/out parole would be okay with me. Death would destroy her father; don't care about the rest of them. On the other hand, contemplating that woman searching for "neck breaking," "household weapons," "how to make chloroform," in relation to her own 2-year-old child, chills me to the bone. She can only have been ruminating on how to kill Caylee w/something in the home & make it look like an accident. Shiver. If that doesn't deserve the needle, what does?

It was exhilarating to see Cindy's perjury exposed. I wish they'd charge her -- but doubt they will bother. Bet Ashton cooks up a dynamite closing.

--- Laurie

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If Cindy wanted Casey to have the baby, SHE should have taken the mother role and raised the child since Casey did not want her. That is where I think Cindy failed. The defense surely was dumb to let her take the blame for the computer searches when it was so easily revealed as a lie.

It doesn't look like those jurors are going to make it home for the 4th. I really feel for them.

The relationship between Cindy and Casey was super contentious. Casey, I believe, used Caylee as a tool to keep Cindy in check. I don't think, whether Casey wanted the baby or not, she would have never allowed her mother to get within a millimeter of taking her away. It was a constant battle of wills between the two of them, Casey wasn't forfeiting her child to her mother. Not in a million years. And for Cindy to take that role, Casey would have had to allow that.

Ah, and in the end, Casey chose to kill her rather than let her mother have her. So so sick.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Pandora, it's different in each state, but a death penalty gets an automatic appeal in every state I can think of. As far as I know, a new trial is granted only if 1) the higher court finds errors in judge's handling of the case, 2) for ineffective counsel, not likely here, 3) if new evidence comes up that was not available at time of trial -- & some courts aren't real sympathetic to this one. Most states are very reluctant to carry out the death penalty -- in California I swear you can die of old age before being executed. Texas & Florida seem to get to it in a much shorter time than other states, especially Texas.

I'm for the death penalty in cases where evidence is incontrovertible, as with DNA, etc. When you decide to kill another human being, you should know that you will pay the ultimate price yourself. It's a sin and a crime. I don't see why we should give life, at our expense, to someone who purposely took it from another. Murder is a choice. Worse, there's always the possibility that, however long the sentence, a bleeding-heart governor or legislature will come along in a decade or two & let the slob out because his mother slapped him around when he was little. It has happened.

In this case I'm on the fence. Life w/out parole would be okay with me. Death would destroy her father; don't care about the rest of them. On the other hand, contemplating that woman searching for "neck breaking," "household weapons," "how to make chloroform," in relation to her own 2-year-old child, chills me to the bone. She can only have been ruminating on how to kill Caylee w/something in the home & make it look like an accident. Shiver. If that doesn't deserve the needle, what does?

It was exhilarating to see Cindy's perjury exposed. I wish they'd charge her -- but doubt they will bother. Bet Ashton cooks up a dynamite closing.

--- Laurie

I am with you on your death penalty thoughts. I am not sure the jury will recommend it, but it wouldn't upset me if they did. The neck breaking and chloroform searches as well as her partying after she killed her child make me have no sympathy for her whatsoever. Life without parole is really as bad to me, because who in their 20's wants to look forward to 60 years in prison?

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Alright, I'm really bothered right now...

Has anyone else noticed that Casey Anthony ties her shirts in the back, pulling them closer to her abdomen? It's driving me nuts.

I get that the clothes may not fit as though they were tailored to precision....but they do "fit" in so much as they aren't bagging off her. So why add the sex appeal of the tight fitting, snug top? This, IMO, is so inappropriate and glaring obvious. Not to mention that she doesn't button the tops up, usually leaves a couple unhinged.

It's disgusting, but I guess a leopard doesn't change it's spots...she just refuses to get the seriousness of this.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I would just like to add...in Florida, perjury charges carries a max of 15 years in prison. Hope it was worth it Cindy...

 

[texaskj]

Pandora, there really is no cookie-cutter answer for DP cases. There are general rules, like those above, but it depends on the state and the case. A prisoner can waive some of their rights on appeals. Here in Texas, it can also depend on the crime. Cop killers tend to go earlier. Women take longer.
(BTW if anyone followed the Darlie Routier case, her husband is finally divorcing her.)

 

[zoebartlett]

HLN actually has a countdown clock for when closing arguments are beginning? Are you kidding me? I assume this ties in with Nancy Grace's show (or Jean Velez-Mitchell's). I hate how sensational this is.