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Cheney Accidentally Shoots Fellow Hunter

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The argument that hunting is good for the environment and animals because it controls over-population is nothing more than an excuse to continue killing animals for sport. According to the Humane Society, "wildlife, to a large degree, will naturally regulate its own populations if permitted, eliminating any need for hunting as a means of population control. Discussions about supposed wildlife overpopulation problems apply primarily to deer. Hunters often claim that hunting is necessary to control deer populations. As practiced, however, hunting often contributes to the growth of deer herds. Heavily hunted states like Pennsylvania and Ohio, for instance, are among those experiencing higher deer densities than perhaps ever before. When an area's deer population is reduced by hunting, the remaining animals respond by having more young, which survive because the competition for food and habitat is reduced. Since one buck can impregnate many does, policies which permit the killing of bucks contribute to high deer populations. If population control were the primary purpose for conducting deer hunts, hunters would only be permitted to kill does. This is not the case, however, because hunters demand that they be allowed to kill bucks for their antlers."

Moreover, there are many species of animal OTHER than deer being hunted, none of whom have overpopulation problems. "Most hunted species are not considered to be overpopulated even by the wildlife agencies that set seasons and bag limits. Black ducks, for instance, face continued legal hunting—even on National Wildlife Refuges—despite the fact that their populations are at or near all-time lows. If hunters claim that they hunt to prevent overpopulation, then they should be prepared to forgo hunting except when it really is necessary to manage overpopulated species. This would mean no hunting of doves, ducks, geese, raccoons, bears, cougars, turkeys, quail, chuckar, pheasants, rabbits, squirrels, and many other species.

What's more, hunters are usually the first to protest when wolves, coyotes, and other predators move into an area and begin to take over the job of controlling game populations. The State of Alaska, for example, has instituted wolf-control (trapping and shooting) on the grounds that wolf predation may bring caribou populations down to a level that would limit the sport-hunting of caribou. Finally, hunters kill opossums, foxes, ravens, and numerous other plentiful species without the pretension of shooting them so that they do not starve or freeze to death."

How anyone can find it fun to kill an animal and watch it die is beyond comprehension. That people do this exclusively as a sport is so repugnant to me, I can barely stand to think about it. I understand that at one time, hunting was a human necessity, but it isn't anymore! Far from it. It's just another example of the arrogance of humans and their blantant disregard for the environtment and nature
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Ok, I was just on the PETA website (yes PETA, those crazy people who hug trees and throw paint on people, lol) and it seems there may be a better way of dealing with deer overpopulation...

A Humane Alternative
There are 20 million deer in the U.S., and because hunting has been an ineffective method to “control” populations (one Pennsylvania hunter “manages” the population by clearing his 600-acre plot of wooded land and planting corn to attract deer), some wildlife agencies are considering other management techniques.25 Several recent studies suggest that sterilization is an effective, long-term solution to overpopulation. A method called TNR (trap, neuter, and return) has been tried on deer in Ithaca, N.Y.,26 and an experimental birth-control vaccine is being used on female deer in Princeton, N.J.27 One Georgia study suggested for 1,500 white-tailed deer on Cumberland Island concluded that “herd size in closed populations can be regulated in the field relatively quickly if fertile and sterile animals can be identified … and an appropriate sterilization schedule is generated.”28
So it isn''t perfect, and it still doesn''t completely let nature run its course, but I figured this would make the deer-feeders happy, hee hee!

Storm, do you remember a few years back there was a big scandal out west somewhere because men were "hiring" women to run around naked in the woods and let the men shoot at them with paintball guns? I got a kick out of your paintball post, and it reminded me of that story!
 
First, I don''t trust a word PETA has to say. Having been heavily involved in dog/cat rescue - they are a nuisance at best. In NC, they have put to death more dogs than the humane society total. They aren''t who they appear to be & if it was up to them NO ONE would have a pet.

Second, I want to say - I have never hunted nor do we own a gun. And, I liberate crickets - as well as live w/ several spider webs about. They actually help control the ant population.

Third, Man is a natural predetor of several of the hunted. I changed my view about hunting by living through it. We have some acreage. Our neighbors are a different story. We are surrounded by 100''s of acres. A while back, they had a hullaballo about the liablity involving hunting on people''s property. The neighbors didn''t allow hunting on their land during that time. I saw a DISTINCT difference in the health of the population during that time. It was upsetting to see very weak acting deer & deer (full grown) the size of dogs. They didn''t migrate - deer don''t do that easily. Don''t know what happened - but hunting was going on around us a few years back. The population is NOW healthy. In fact, yesterday, we had Santa''s whole team in our back yard - 12 of them - seemed like they were traveling two by two - full racked males, several nice shaped does (no ribs or small) & some healthy looking bambis.

Hunting does work - especially in the areas that are quasi country. Sure, in rural areas where few hunt - you will see a healthier population - but that''s because they aren''t displaced by "civilization". Development isn''t going to stop. It''s controled here where I live. But, I have a feeling not for long.

Also, not a week (sometimes not a day) goes by that I don''t see a deer dead from car impact. Do you never drive a car in the country? It''s certainly a worse fate.

So, my turn around comes from experience. I couldn''t hunt. But, I certainly saw first hand what controlled hunting can do. The perferct solution would be to no encrouch into their habitats - but THAT''s not going to happen. Ya learn to pick your battles.
 
I guess I just can''t get past my respect for nature on this issue. I respect your opinion, F&I, though, and I can understand where you''re coming from. My parents have had a horrible time keeping hunters away from their land. My father almost got caught in the fire a few years back...one of the neighbors had come right onto their property tracking a deer, and then when he shot it he only wounded it because he was an idiot to begin with who should never have had a gun in the first place. My father happened to be out on his tractor in between the deer and the hunter. Course he wasn''t wearing orange or anything, seeing as it was HIS LAND and he wasn''t HUNTING. But I guess fences and property lines don''t mean much when you''re out for a kill helping God control the deer population.
 
Date: 2/13/2006 1:09:50 PM
Author: monarch64
I guess I just can''t get past my respect for nature on this issue. I respect your opinion, F&I, though, and I can understand where you''re coming from. My parents have had a horrible time keeping hunters away from their land. My father almost got caught in the fire a few years back...one of the neighbors had come right onto their property tracking a deer, and then when he shot it he only wounded it because he was an idiot to begin with who should never have had a gun in the first place. My father happened to be out on his tractor in between the deer and the hunter. Course he wasn''t wearing orange or anything, seeing as it was HIS LAND and he wasn''t HUNTING. But I guess fences and property lines don''t mean much when you''re out for a kill helping God control the deer population.

There are slob hunters out there that give everyone a bad name.
Hunter safety courses help and the problems have went down since it was required here for anyone under 18.
The parents have to take the class with the kids.
In some ways I like the hunting test like they do in Sweden but its not the American away and does infringe on freedom.
Im not sure what the answer is to slob hunters.
 
I think both sides have a point. The existing problem is that the ecosystem is out of balance; i.e. the natural predators have been removed (wolves, coyotes, etc). When this happens the deer population can explode create havoc on the remaining ecosystem. This has been seen in the Colorado river system. Nature does not take care of itself unless the ecosystem is in balance. The ideal thing to do of course would be to set aside lands and try to restore them to a more normal ecosystem, and reentroduce top predators. I think we have enough land in this country to do so; it is part of our heritage. Not setting aside lands where it is possible to do so bothers me more than the fact there are hunters. In areas where that is not possible, although it is not very palatable to some, I don''t have a problem with hunting seasons for deer (esp when the hunters behave themselves). It would be nice to have the rule that what is killed is eaten. In some states (WI?) I think some of the meat is given to homeless shelters. I''m NOT a fan of trophy hunting, because in a way that goes against nature, where the biggest and most fit animals, who usually continue the species, are then killed for money and sport in a way they never would be confronted with in the wild (high powered telescopic rifles).
 
Who is to say that hunters with guns aren''t a "natural" part of the ecosystem?

I''m not into killing aminals myself but I sure do like eating them. Mmmmmmmmmm.
 
Well, you know RA, you ARE what you eat, hee hee...
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Date: 2/13/2006 5:28:35 PM
Author: monarch64
Well, you know RA, you ARE what you eat, hee hee...
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What''s that? Meat?

Aren''t you meat too?

Or maybe I''m a Delmonico from the Delmonico Republic.
 
I wouldn''t characterize hunters with guns as "natural" part of the ecosystem, just saying they can serve the role that predators normally would by culling the herd. Humans have a pretty lousy track record of coexisting with other species; there is evidence that human migration to the Americas caused extinction of many large animal species that were originally indigenous here. That is, if we are predators, we are superpredators, too good for our own good
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. Many people are still in the mindset that nature''s bounty is endless, but given the number of people on this planet it is evident it is not.
 
Isn''t that what natural selection is all about? Why isn''t what we do "natural"?
 
Date: 2/13/2006 5:38:08 PM
Author: part gypsy
I wouldn't characterize hunters with guns as 'natural' part of the ecosystem, just saying they can serve the role that predators normally would by culling the herd. Humans have a pretty lousy track record of coexisting with other species; there is evidence that human migration to the Americas caused extinction of many large animal species that were originally indigenous here. That is, if we are predators, we are superpredators, too good for our own good
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. Many people are still in the mindset that nature's bounty is endless, but given the number of people on this planet it is evident it is not.

Nature has done a pretty good job of providing so far.
There is more than enough food for everyone it is getting it too them that is a problem.
 
Storm why do you assume that because an animal dies of natural reasons instead of being killed and consumed by a person, it is a waste?
 
Date: 2/13/2006 6:30:08 PM
Author: colormyworld
Storm why do you assume that because an animal dies of natural reasons instead of being killed and consumed by a person is a waste?

because it is in my opinion :}
 
Is our eco system also a waste.
 
Date: 2/13/2006 6:40:05 PM
Author: colormyworld
Is our eco system also a waste.


it is in some ways wasteful yes.
 
Nothing goes to waste. Its all in how you look at it.
 
Getting back to the matter at hand.....Our VP shot someone!!!! Again, our country is put in a position to be the butt of jokes.
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Quoting my 14 year old "What was the old guy doing in the air?" Outta the mouths of babes!
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Oh man this thread is starting to give me the giggles. I love hearing everyone''s POV!

Moonriver...yes, back to the original subject, but just for a minute, ha ha! What your son said was so funny--I love the way they think! I agree, another embarrassing moment for the U.S. gov''t.

On the topic of animals going to waste if not eaten by humans...to my knowledge, when an animal dies of natural causes (starvation, age, etc.) it''s carcass becomes food for other species...the predator who killed it, the scavengers who feed off dead stuff, the bugs... doesn''t sound very wasteful to me.
 
I wonder how this incident will effect the V.P.s standing in the NRA. I lol every time I picture him speaking at their last big meeting.
Maybe the texas lawyer asked cheny how the war in iraq is going?
Could have also asked about scooter.
 
Cheney Cited for Breaking Hunting Law

By NEDRA PICKLER
WASHINGTON (AP) - "Vice President Dick Cheney has been given a warning citation for breaking Texas hunting law by failing to buy a $7 stamp allowing him to shoot upland game birds.

The warning came from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department after it investigated Cheney's accidental shooting of a fellow quail hunter Saturday on the private Armstrong Ranch in the south part of the state.

The department found the accident was caused by a 'hunter's judgment factor' when Cheney sprayed another hunter while aiming at flying birds.

The report said the victim, prominent Republican attorney Harry Whittington of Austin, was retrieving a downed bird and stepped out of the hunting line he was sharing with Cheney. 'Another covey was flushed and Cheney swung on a bird and fired, striking Whittington in the face, neck and chest at approximately 30 yards,' the report said.

Cheney, an experienced hunter, has not commented publicly about the accident.

(snip of discussion about the stamp Cheney was supposed to have)

Whittington was in stable condition at Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial and was moved from intensive care to a 'step-down unit' Monday. Doctors decided to leave several birdshot pellets lodged in his skin rather than try to remove them.

Katharine Armstrong, owner of the ranch where the shooting occurred, said it happened toward the end of the hunt,

This gave me pause! If the accident had occurred earlier, would the hunt have continued ? Would we then hear that the accident happened "early in the hunt"?

when it was still sunny but as darkness was encroaching and they were preparing to go inside. She said Whittington made a mistake by not announcing that he had walked up to rejoin the hunting line, and Cheney didn't see him as he tried to down a bird.

Armstrong said she saw Cheney's security detail running toward the scene. 'The first thing that crossed my mind was he had a heart problem,' she told The Associated Press.

She said Cheney stayed 'close but cool' while the agents and medical personnel treated Whittington, then took him by ambulance to the hospital. Later, the hunting group sat down for dinner while Whittington was being treated, receiving updates from a family member at the hospital. Armstrong described Cheney's demeanor during dinner as 'very worried' about Whittington.

Pamela Willeford, the U.S. ambassador to Switzerland, another member of the hunting party, told The Dallas Morning News for a story in Tuesday's editions that she and Cheney didn't realize Whittington had picked up a bird and caught up with them.

Willeford said she has hunted with Cheney before and would again.

'He's a great shot. He's very safety conscious. This is something that unfortunately was a bad accident and when you're with a group like that, he's safe or safer than all the rest of us,' she said.

The accident raised questions about Cheney's adherence to hunting safety practices and the White House's failure to disclose the accident in a timely way.

Duane Harvey, president of the Wisconsin Hunter Education Instructors Association, said if Whittington had made his presence known 'that would have been a polite thing to do.' But, he added, 'it's still the fault upon the shooter to identify his target and what is beyond it.'

(snip of when President Bush was informed and criticism of the White House)

Armstrong said she told Cheney on Sunday morning that she was going to inform the local paper, the Corpus Christi Caller-Times. She said he agreed, and the newspaper was the first to report the incident on its Web site Sunday afternoon.

Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren said that about an hour after Cheney shot Whittington, the head of the Secret Service's local office called the Kenedy County sheriff to report the accident. 'They made arrangements at the sheriff's request to have deputies come out and interview the vice president the following morning at 8 a.m. and that indeed did happen,' Zahren said.

At least one deputy showed up at the ranch's front gate Saturday evening and asked to speak to Cheney but was turned away by the Secret Service, Zahren said. There was some miscommunication that arrangements already had been made to interview Cheney the next morning, he said.

Gilbert San Miguel, chief deputy sheriff for Kenedy County, said the department's report had not been completed Monday and that it was being handled as a hunting accident, although he would not comment about what exactly they were investigating. Both the sheriff's department and the state have determined that alcohol did not appear to be a factor."

On the Net:

White House: http://www.whitehouse.gov


02/14/06 03:56
 
I just read that the poor lawyer (Whittington) was actually shot in the face! How do you, as a hunter, follow a bird with the sight on a gun and not see someone''s FACE until it''s too late???
 

I''m unsure about the face thing to - but - and maybe someone w/ a bird gun can chime in - I think it''s lots of pellets & not just one bullet. Some bound to stray.


Again, the man shouldn''t own a gun. Yeah, there are some crazy irresponsible hunters. Our house was nearly grazed by a bullet sent from the gun of a 12 year old. We live in a freakin forest - and you decide to shoot directly near a house? We called the game warden. He caught up with them hunting illegally on someone else''s land.


I like set aside wild life places. But, I don''t like rounding up & moving the wildlife there. It sounds rather cruel. We have a very short wild turkey season here. Bothers me because they are such beautiful majestic birds - smart too - you don''t see them around much during hunting season. To my point - they are creatures of habit. They mate for life & circle the same turf nearly in the exact same spot. I''m not a bird - but seems like they''d be out of their element if moved somewhere else.


This whole shooting incident is just a symptom of this admin. & the political climate in general. Let''s wait and see how we can put this thing out there spin and all. I''m so tired of politics. And who''d a thunk bird hunting would be something to take the politicale from - was it Norway to do? - one of the Scan countries.



 
Date: 2/14/2006 10:08:22 AM
Author: monarch64
I just read that the poor lawyer (Whittington) was actually shot in the face! How do you, as a hunter, follow a bird with the sight on a gun and not see someone''s FACE until it''s too late???

easy with a shotgun, he was under the barrel and got caught by the widening cone of shot.
Why an observer didnt yell seize fire when someone was down range is my big question.
There are a lot of things that went wrong but ultimatly its the fault of the one that pulled the trigger.
As for the stamp in most states you dont need one on a game farm because the animals are property of the land owner just like a cow or pig would be.
In texas I believe it would depend on how the land was clasified.
If it was a registered game farm then no stamp was needed.
 
here is a chart that shows shot sizes relative to a penny.
More than likely it was 7 1/2 or 8 shot

shotsize.jpg
 
In a typical loading there would be between 350 and 500 of those.
At 30 yards depending on choke aprox. 200-300 of the pellets would be in a 30 inch circle with the rest of them out as far as several more feet.
He was likely under the pattern or he would have been seen and the birds are usualy shot on the rise.
My guess is he likely took 10 pellets at the most.

edit: at that range they have between 1.2 and 1.77 foot pounds of energy a jean jacket would likely stop most of them from breaking the skin.
In our pellet gun wars we took much more powerful hits.
unless it hit an eye its unlikely to penatrate the skull.
Not enough energy to do so.
likely they were all stopped just under the surface of the skin.
 
Storm, I had a feeling you''d be a wealth of info on my question! I was actually talking to the guys in our warehouse here at work a few minutes ago, and they told me they saw a reenactment of what supposedly happened on the news...they said it seems that Whittington was on the ground or crouched down when Cheney was following his bird, and he abruptly stood up and got caught in the pellet spray.
 
Ouch!!
 
Ouch is right!!! Man that has to be painful!!!
 
Anyone else get a mental picture of ELMER FUDD when they think of this topic?
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It''s rabbit season, it''s duck season...no it''s Lawyer season
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