Chivalry...your thoughts please

[missy]

So when I was younger there were chivalrous acts I witnessed daily. Some personal and many others I observed. When a man (or a woman) held a door open for someone else it was welcomed and looked at as a lovely gesture.

Once over 3 decades ago when I was at the Bloomingdales train station where there is a very steep climb up my sandal fell off my foot. And before I knew it a lovely young man ran to get it and he put it back on my foot. And everyone (very crowded station and stairs) went awwwww. It was a very sweet gesture for a stranger. Just one example but an experience I was grateful for with good reason. And of course for anyone who holds the door open I look at it as a very kind gesture. Never insulted. Always welcomed.

Perhaps I am wrong in what I am observing now and that is why I am starting this thread. It seems now that many people (women) do not welcome chivalrous acts. As in, don't hold the door open for me, I am capable of holding it open myself. Don't get up and give me your seat on the subway. etc.

Is this the case now or it chivalry still graciously welcomed by the individual receiving it? We are all different of course but I, for one, am never insulted if a stranger does something nice for me. And when I was working I often and happily gave my seat to an elderly person or pregnant woman. And held the door open for the person behind me too. To me it is second nature and the kind and nice thing to do.

How doi you feel? Do you like being on the receiving end of chivalrous acts? Or do you prefer being the one to do the chivalrous acts? Or do you eschew both because most people are capable individuals and do not need senseless acts of kindness and chivalry? Genuinely curious what the prevailing thoughts are in 2025


@empliau I dedicate this comic to you

 

[Avondale]

It seems now that many people (women) do not welcome chivalrous acts.

Maybe because many people assume that chivalrous acts are something displayed strictly by men towards women. Hence adding a flavour of sexism to the whole thing and painting it in negative light. While I believe the concept can and should evolve, just as it has before, to accommodate the modern world and societal values.

My husband, for example, is very annoyed when people, women included, won't hold the door for him when he's clearly carrying multiple bags in both hands. And I agree with him that it's very rude and displays a lack of common courtesy.

 

[Avondale]

@empliau I dedicate this comic to you

I can't react to the whole post with a laugh emoji, sooo...

 

[missy]

Maybe because many people assume that chivalrous acts are something displayed strictly by men towards women. Hence adding a flavour of sexism to the whole thing and painting it in negative light. While I believe the concept can and should evolve, just as it has before, to accommodate the modern world and societal values.

My husband, for example, is very annoyed when people, women included, won't hold the door for him when he's clearly carrying multiple bags in both hands. And I agree with him that it's very rude and displays a lack of common courtesy.

I agree that Chivalry applies to all genders. Even back in the "old" days I was always ready and happy to hold a door open for a man or woman or child and applied (and still do) that to every aspect of my life. I do not make assumptions based on gender and never have. I do see others who do but to me chivalry (accepting and giving) is for everyone. Not just one gender

And I am with your dh. Hod the frickin door open for someone whose arms are full. Common decency. Common courtesy but sadly like common sense many are dearly lacking in these areas

 

[Bron357]

Story time.
Years ago catching a bus I was the only woman standing and an elderly man stood up and offered me his seat. Of course I politely declined being young and him definitely needing it more. In those few seconds, another man who was standing took the seat. The lady sitting alongside spoke up “the gentleman was offering the young lady his seat not you”. F@&* off was his response. With that another man, a very well built Polynesian chap, seated a few seats behind indicated to the lady to swap seats. As he stood up I thought this is going to be interesting. This big guy literally sat down on the seat thief, then opened his bag, got out a newspaper and proceeded to very much invade the rude guys personal space with his elbows and paper. The rude guy didn’t last long in his stolen seat, he pressed the button to signal his desire to get off the bus. All those aware of the situation “clapped him out” as he exited.

 

[missy]

Story time.
Years ago catching a bus I was the only woman standing and an elderly man stood up and offered me his seat. Of course I politely declined being young and him definitely needing it more. In those few seconds, another man who was standing took the seat. The lady sitting alongside spoke up “the gentleman was offering the young lady his seat not you”. F@&* off was his response. With that another man, a very well built Polynesian chap, seated a few seats behind indicated to the lady to swap seats. As he stood up I thought this is going to be interesting. This big guy literally sat down on the seat thief, then opened his bag, got out a newspaper and proceeded to very much invade the rude guys personal space with his elbows and paper. The rude guy didn’t last long in his stolen seat, he pressed the button to signal his desire to get off the bus. All those aware of the situation “clapped him out” as he exited.

The world is made up of all kinds of people. Some suck big time and others don't. Unfortunately as I get older I observe more who suck than those who don't. Of course I would love to be proven wrong. As I often say to my dh...I hate being right (most of the time).

 

[seaurchin]

I think simple actions get complicated because the same action can have multiple meanings and can also be done with differing intentions. I'd say:

Anyone opening a door or giving up a seat for anyone who seems like they obviously need it, regardless of age or gender- Yes.

Small, very brief and expected interactions between any strangers who find themselves crossing paths closely, like nodding or saying "excuse me" or anyone holding the door for anyone who is directly behind them - Yes.

Men opening doors, pulling out restaurant chairs, offering their coat, and other chivalrous little acts for women who are relatives, wives, dates, etc. - Yes (unless of course the man knows that the woman in question happens to not prefer that sort of thing)

Men doing the above for unknown women at a venue where there's an implied invitation to socialize, such as a party or gathering of friends- Maybe.

Men doing the above for unknown women out in public, where there is no implied invitation to socialize, things that they wouldn't do for anyone, regardless of age or gender- Probably not.

To me, common sense would be for men to choose the less intrusive option, when in doubt. Frequently, "chivalry" is really just the first step in a man hitting on a woman, or is perceived as such by women, from their previous experience. It can be perceived as pushing yourself on her uninvited, to a degree that might cause anything from annoyance to anxiety to fear to her, because males don't always take rejection well.

Also, some of those little actions that were once considered chivalrous and that still are sometimes, are hold-overs from back when women were routinely treated as lesser beings, weaklings or children. That treatment of course extended to matters like legal rights and pay. As such, they can legitimately be seen as patronizing, much like calling her "honey" in a workplace discussion.

The example Missy used, with some guy retrieving her shoe and putting it on her foot, sounds like it was a cute, Cinderella rom-com-like moment. But, at the same time, another woman in another situation might also rightly see it as too intimate from a stranger or infantilizing her, to put the shoe on her foot. I recall a friend years ago, coming home from the library shaken up because some guy crawled over to her in the stacks and began rubbing her feet. Eek! To me, that's the problem. You can't tell who you're dealing with. So I'd rather they keep to themselves.

"Chivalry," hmm. Interesting topic.

 

[seaurchin]

The world is made up of all kinds of people. Some suck big time and others don't. Unfortunately as I get older I observe more who suck than those who don't. Of course I would love to be proven wrong. As I often say to my dh...I hate being right (most of the time).

I agree and it's a loss. Where have all the lovely people gone?

ETA: I can think of a couple of people who seemed like they'd be so perfect at customer service jobs, who you just love on sight because they're so kind and empathetic. I always wished I was more like that or at least knew more people like that.

 

[missy]

I’mi

I think simple actions get complicated because the same action can have multiple meanings and can also be done with differing intentions. I'd say:

Anyone opening a door or giving up a seat for anyone who seems like they obviously need it, regardless of age or gender- Yes.

Small, very brief and expected interactions between any strangers, who find themselves crossing paths closely, like nodding or saying "excuse me"- Yes.

Men opening doors, pulling out restaurant chairs, offering their coat, and other chivalrous little acts for women who are relatives, wives, dates, etc. - Yes (unless of course the man knows that the woman in question happens to not prefer that sort of thing)

Men doing the above for unknown women at a venue where there's an implied invitation to socialize and assumption that he is known by others there and has been somewhat vetted, such as a party or gathering of friends- Maybe.

Men doing the above for unknown women out in public, where there is no implied invitation to socialize, things that they wouldn't do for anyone, regardless of age or gender- Probably not.

To me, common sense would be for men to choose the less intrusive option, when in doubt. Frequently, "chivalry" is really just the first step in a man hitting on a woman, or perceived as such by women from their previous experience. That can be perceived as pushing yourself on her uninvited, to a degree that might cause anything from annoyance to anxiety to fear to her, because males don't always take rejection well.

Also, some of those little actions that were once considered "chivalrous" and still are sometimes, are hold-overs from back when women were routinely treated as weaklings or child-like creatures. That treatment of course was also in matters such as legal rights and pay. As such, they can legitimately be seen as patronizing or insulting, much like calling her "honey" in a workplace discussion.

The example Missy used, with some guy retrieving her shoe and putting in on her foot, sounds like it was a cute, Cinderella rom-com moment. However, another woman in another situation might also rightly see it as too intimate and intrusive from a stranger or insultingly infantilizing her, to place the shoe back on her foot. I recall a friend years ago, coming home from the library shaken up because some guy crawled over to her in the stacks and began rubbing her feet. Eek!

"Chivalry," hmm. Interesting topic.

Yes agree. I will say that young man asked may I before he did anything that could be considered untoward. It was completely innocent. I agree with what you wrote but I find it sad now people questioning motives of those who act chivalrously. I can see why this behavior is less frequent now. Too many assume the worst and it absolutely dampens nice behavior. No good deed and all that Jazz. My viewpoint only

 

[seaurchin]

I’mi

Yes agree. I will say that young man asked may I before he did anything that could be considered untoward. It was completely innocent. I agree with what you wrote but I find it sad now people questioning motives of those who act chivalrously. I can see why this behavior is less frequent now. Too many assume the worst and it absolutely dampens nice behavior. No good deed and all that Jazz. My viewpoint only

It's true, many of us aren't very trusting at all anymore and it's a loss. It probably also depends somewhat on location. We recently moved to a more urban location after years in the suburbs. I soon learned to stop smiling and saying "hi" to neighbors when I passed by them because they tended to act like they didn't hear me and just keep walking. Or they'd look a bit alarmed before muttering "hi" back. I felt like I had just fallen off the turnip truck.

 

[Tartansparkles]

Holding the door open may depend on cultural norms. I live in Glasgow. Holding the door open whether in an office, a building or a shopping centre is the norm. You look behind you, if there is a person (any person) approaching the door, you hold it open. I was in London a few weeks ago. A lady passed through a door in front of me and let it close behind her. I was genuinely stopped in my tracks. (Obvs because I had to now stop and open the door but because who does that? I mean, she didn't even look!!!).

There are other more serious thoughts that I have around what can be a touchy subject and whether or not various types of activism have taken us down the right path. I don't have time to think them through just now but it is a shame that offers of help (or even just good manners), can now somehow be interpreted as any number of bodily affronts.

 

[missy]

Holding the door open may depend on cultural norms. I live in Glasgow. Holding the door open whether in an office, a building or a shopping centre is the norm. You look behind you, if there is a person (any person) approaching the door, you hold it open. I was in London a few weeks ago. A lady passed through a door in front of me and let it close behind her. I was genuinely stopped in my tracks. (Obvs because I had to now stop and open the door but because who does that? I mean, she didn't even look!!!).

There are other more serious thoughts that I have around what can be a touchy subject and whether or not various types of activism have taken us down the right path. I don't have time to think them through just now but it is a shame that offers of help (or even just good manners), can now somehow be interpreted as any number of bodily affronts.

100%. And at risk of offending anyone here so many people are Uber sensitive to a fault. IMO. As realistic as I am I always assume the best in everyone til proven otherwise

It's true, many of us aren't very trusting at all anymore and it's a loss. It probably also depends somewhat on location. We recently moved to a more urban location after years in the suburbs. I soon learned to stop smiling and saying "hi" to neighbors when I passed by them because they tend to act like they didn't hear me and keep walking. Or they'd look a bit alarmed before muttering "hi" back. I felt like I had just fallen off the turnip truck.

That’s on them and shame on them. My dh used to complain that manhattan ites on the UES were unfriendly like that. I never felt that way but acknowledge people can be very unwelcoming and his and your experiences are completely valid. It’s a shame people can be so not nice

 

[Lookinagain]

I think, that as @Avondale stated, the term chivalry conjures up men's actions towards women. I think most things like holding the door open for the person behind you, or opening it for the person in front of you who has their arms full, or offering your seat to an elderly or pregnant person are just common courtesy and should be the norm. Like @Tartansparkles I'm always kind of shocked when the person entering in front of me just lets the door slam in my face. I do have to say, that it doesn't happen often. So I appreciate actions of common courtesy. Do I need someone to help me with my coat? No, but if a male friend offers, I'm not offended either. But I don't expect it. Same goes for some other things, but honestly, I hate it when a man pulls out a chair for me and then tries to scoot it back.....

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I love chivalry. I hold open the doors for people and love it when they do it for me. It feels special. Years ago my husband used to open my car door for me but he hasn't done that for many years now. That small gesture made me feel so good and I miss it.

 

[missy]

I love chivalry. I hold open the doors for people and love it when they do it for me. It feels special. Years ago my husband used to open my car door for me but he hasn't done that for many years now. That small gesture made me feel so good and I miss it.

Girrrl, same!

ETA My dh does still open my car door but that’s because my hands are compromised lol

 

[Tartansparkles]

@Lookinagain I never understood the chair thing either. I wonder how/where it began? Did chairs used to have wheels which avoided the whole how are we supposed to move the chair with a person sitting on it. (I don't think so.) Or maybe we're not actually supposed to sit on it until the chair is moved in? (And I've been doing it wrong all these years ).

I wonder if it had anything to do with dresses and bustles.

 

[missy]

@Lookinagain I never understood the chair thing either. I wonder how/where it began? Did chairs used to have wheels which avoided the whole how are we supposed to move the chair with a person sitting on it. (I don't think so.) Or maybe we're not actually supposed to sit on it until the chair is moved in? (And I've been doing it wrong all these years ).

I wonder if it had anything to do with dresses and bustles.

I don’t know the specifics behind the tradition but I do know when we go to fancy restaurants the wait staff always holds my chair out for me. I do not mind at all. I view it as polite and respectful. They do the same for my dh

 

[Dreamer_D]

I took a class on chivalry when I was in school. The history of chivalry is very interesting and began in the late middle ages. It’s a facet of gender roles, so it prescribes how men and women are supposed to interact. But it has all the problems that other facets of gender roles can have. It can easily drift into benevolent sexism where you have men yelling at you when you don’t say thank you loudly and sincerely enough if they do happen to hold the door for you or stop for you at a crosswalk. That’s happened to me multiple times. And of course, that completely defeats the purpose chivalry was intended to communicate (beyond performative gender, and ultimately power), which is kindness and respect . Like other aspects of gender roles, I enjoy playing out chivalric behaviours with my husband or with some other people in my life when it’s done with humour and kindness between equals. But when chivalry or any aspect of gender roles becomes a requirement or something I’m punished for not performing properly, especially when my role is perceived to be “grateful submissive”, then it becomes toxic and I don’t enjoy it. I think many women feel that way, especially young women. They aren’t rejecting kindness when they reject some men’s efforts at chivalry. They are rejecting supposedly “kind” acts performed as an expression of gendered power dynamics.

 

[RMOO]

Most of the examples listed in this thread seem to be considered general politeness applicable to both sexes, and I agree. So then, and I apologize @missy for the thread jack, what would you all consider to be chivalry that crosses the line into misogamy or chauvinism?

 

[missy]

Most of the examples listed in this thread seem to be considered general politeness applicable to both sexes, and I agree. So then, and I apologize @missy for the thread jack, what would you all consider to be chivalry that crosses the line into misogamy or chauvinism?

No worries I am good with any follow up questions
All I can say is I know it when I see it

Not necessarily related to chivalry but
Mansplaining is misogynistic amd I loathe it
Having double standards
Talking over you

 

[seaurchin]

I think what we're calling chivalry are manners from long, long ago, which makes them seem kind of romantic and almost fairy-tale like at times. But the times they came out of were highly paternalistic, misogynistic, chauvinistic, so... modern interpretations vary.

For ex. if I thought literally about my father "giving me away" at the altar or about what's behind erasing my last name to take on my husband's, I'd be p*ssed. But for some reason, I didn't think of that way. I did take exception to the minister trying to get me to promise to "obey" my husband though, and made him take it out of the vows. That's just how it all hit me so that's how I reacted. Other people might have felt completely different about the different factors and other old customs in modern times, and act accordingly. What else can ya do?

 

[Avondale]

how are we supposed to move the chair with a person sitting on it

You aren't. That's from what seems to be a bygone age where even sitting at a table in a restaurant was different to what it is today. It was a well coordinated action which I assume felt natural to the people involved just because everyone used to do it. The person moving the chair moves in unison with the person taking or leaving the seat, and the movement happens just as you're about to sit or right after you begin to get up, so your weight isn't on the chair.

 

[Lookinagain]

I don’t know the specifics behind the tradition but I do know when we go to fancy restaurants the wait staff always holds my chair out for me. I do not mind at all. I view it as polite and respectful. They do the same for my dh

It's not the pulling out that bothers me. It's the pushing in. When I go to restaurants they don't seem to try to push it in. They just pull it out. Maybe your experience is different.

 

[RMOO]

I think what we're calling chivalry are manners from long, long ago, which makes them seem kind of romantic and almost fairy-tale like at times. But the times they came out of were highly paternalistic, misogynistic, chauvinistic, so... Interpretation varies.

For ex. if I thought literally about my father "giving me away" at the altar or about what's behind erasing my last name to take on my husband's, I'd be p*ssed. But for some reason, I didn't think of that way. I did take exception to the minister trying to get me to promise to "obey" my husband though, and made him take it out of the vows. That's just how it all hit me so that's how I reacted. Other people might have felt completely different about the different factors and other old customs in modern times, and act accordingly. What else can ya do?

Right? But those of us of a certain age were bathed in the misogamy of the day (we all are) and so it was just the way it was done, without really thinking of the overtone. But things have changed since I got married (1980's.) I have encouraged my daughters and daughters-in-law to keep their maiden name if they want to, among other things.

But I digress....So maybe what was chivalry will continue to transform into simply common curtesy for all to perform, except of course for the occasional a-hole ("this is why we can't have anything nice.")

The only thing I can think of that once was considered chivalrous, but today just seems weird or condescending, is the man ordering for "the lady" in restaurants.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Most of the examples listed in this thread seem to be considered general politeness applicable to both sexes, and I agree. So then, and I apologize @missy for the thread jack, what would you all consider to be chivalry that crosses the line into misogamy or chauvinism?

Here’s my take.

There’s two kinds of sexism. One kind is called benevolent sexism, and that’s what chivalry can sometimes fall under. Benevolent sexism involves the idea of putting women on a pedestal, assuming that we are somehow innately loving and caring and kind, and that men require women in their lives to complete them or teach them about love and gentleness. Benevolent sexism often involves the idea that women must be protected and cherished as well. So I think you can see how that relates to chivalry sometimes. The flipside of benevolent sexism is called hostile sexism. Hostile sexism is what we would term misogyny, and it’s typically expressed towards women who fail to live up to the gender role that they are supposed to embody. So strong women, women leaders, women who are too agentic, ugly women, fat women, queer women, all of these women are very quickly subjected to hostile sexism. And any woman who doesn’t behave the way she’s supposed to behave towards men can be subjected to hostile sexism. So when does chivalry switch over to being misogynistic? It switches when a man expresses a supposedly chivalrous act that is in fact motivated by benevolent sexism, and a woman does not respond as she is supposed to respond, which is with grateful submission. If she fails to be sufficiently appreciative, if she expresses dissatisfaction at the way he’s behaved, then he will get angry at her and express hostile sexism towards her.

It can be very difficult to predict whether a man is engaging in chivalrous behaviour out of kindness and playfulness and an interest in engaging with a woman in a scripted way that helps both people feel understood (this is the purpose of social roles and scripted behaviours like chivalry, and it’s good), or whether a man is engaging in chivalry because he desires to express his power and wants to coerce a woman into expressing her appreciation and submission towards him (this is sexism, and it’s bad). So if a woman can’t predict a man’s motivation for engaging in chivalry, and if making a mistake in your interpretation of why a man is engaging in chivalrous behavior can result in hostility or aggression and scary situations with men, then you can just reject all chivalrous behaviour as a safety measure. And that’s what we see from some women who reject chivalry, IMO. And that seems reasonable to me.

 

[RMOO]

Here’s my take.

There’s two kinds of sexism. One kind is called benevolent sexism, and that’s what chivalry can sometimes fall under. Benevolent sexism involves the idea of putting women on a pedestal, assuming that we are somehow innately loving and caring and kind, and that men require women in their lives to complete them or teach them about love and gentleness. Benevolent sexism often involves the idea that women must be protected and cherished as well. So I think you can see how that relates to chivalry sometimes. The flipside of benevolent sexism is called hostile sexism. Hostile sexism is what we would term misogyny, and it’s typically expressed towards women who fail to live up to the gender role that they are supposed to embody. So strong women, women leaders, women who are too agentic, ugly women, fat women, queer women, all of these women are very quickly subjected to hostile sexism. And any woman who doesn’t behave the way she’s supposed to behave towards men can be subjected to hostile sexism. So when does chivalry switch over to being misogynistic? It switches when a man expresses a supposedly chivalrous act that is in fact motivated by benevolent sexism, and a woman does not respond as she is supposed to respond, which is with grateful submission. If she fails to be sufficiently appreciative, if she expresses dissatisfaction at the way he’s behaved, then he will get angry at her and express hostile sexism towards her.

It can be very difficult to predict whether a man is engaging in chivalrous behaviour out of kindness and playfulness and an interest in engaging with a woman in a scripted way that helps both people feel understood (this is the purpose of social roles and scripted behaviours like chivalry, and it’s good), or whether a man is engaging in chivalry because he desires to express his power and wants to coerce a woman into expressing her appreciation and submission towards him (this is sexism, and it’s bad). So if a woman can’t predict a man’s motivation for engaging in chivalry, and if making a mistake in your interpretation of why a man is engaging in chivalrous behavior can result in hostility or aggression and scary situations with men, then you can just reject all chivalrous behaviour as a safety measure. And that’s what we see from some women who reject chivalry, IMO. And that seems reasonable to me.

I get it. And I find these discussions to be extremely interesting!

 

[Lookinagain]

Right? But those of us of a certain age were bathed in the misogamy of the day (we all are) and so it was just the way it was done, without really thinking of the overtone. But things have changed since I got married (1980's.) I have encouraged my daughters and daughters-in-law to keep their maiden name if they want to, among other things.

Correct, but the women's movement in the 70's really started the changes. Until then there were many laws that kept the "old way", not just custom or norm. When I first got married in the mid-70's and moved St. Louis, I had planned on keeping my maiden name. I went to get a Missouri driver's license and they wanted three forms of ID. I gave them my birth certificate, current driver's license and my marriage cert. Once they saw the marriage certificate, they wouldn't give me a license with my maiden name and told me I'd need a legal name change to keep it. The law there changed a few years later but at the time, I was absolutely ticked off and shocked. So I guess my point is that some of the misogyny was codified and it took a lot to change that. And maybe those of us of a certain age are sensitive to some of the things mentioned because we remember those years.

 

[Matata]

It's not the pulling out that bothers me. It's the pushing in.

Lube?



I tried to resist; I failed.

 

[dk168]

I believe it is rather sad that acts of kindness, appreciation and/or chivalry are often viewed with suspicious hostility nowadays.

I still appreciate doors being held opened for me; offers to carry a heavy suitcase up or down a flight of stairs; a seat being offered in a crowded public transport (my white hair makes me look old from the back ); being offered to use the loo ahead of a small queue in case I need to go very soon; etc. etc...

DK

 

[missy]

It's not the pulling out that bothers me. It's the pushing in. When I go to restaurants they don't seem to try to push it in. They just pull it out. Maybe your experience is different.

Lube?



I tried to resist; I failed.

LOL sorry my mind went there and then I saw Matata's post.