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Color of natural sapphire v. heated sapphire.

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From the standpoint of a non-expert, here is what I can tell you: Heating is done to bring out more intensity and saturation in a sapphire. Some sapphires are deep Kashmir blue in color, without being heat treated. If they are cut well and have great clarity, and were mined in Myamar (Burma), then they have the potential to be investment grade stones and often sold at auctions for tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars per carat for large carat weight stones. Having said that, other sapphires are heat treated and are still considered investment grade b/c of color saturation, evenness, cut, clarity, mining location, etc. The top top jewelers in America (like Tiffany or Van Cleef) sell both heat treated sapphires and non-heat treated. Personally, I would go with the stone that speaks to you, whether or not it was heat treated. I can''t comment on the sapphire you linked to b/c I don''t know enough about cut, etc. but the color looks really pretty and Sri Lanka (Ceylon) is a very well respected locale for mining great sapphires.
 
In my search, I see both called natural, but one is unheated and the other is heated. I talked to a real gem expert and author at one point, and he said he would not rule out heated sapphires because most are. He buys and sells both based on the beauty and quality of the stones.
 
That is a very beautiful sapphire. As diamondseeker said most sapphires are treated.
 
Date: 3/19/2008 9:46:18 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
In my search, I see both called natural, but one is unheated and the other is heated. I talked to a real gem expert and author at one point, and he said he would not rule out heated sapphires because most are. He buys and sells both based on the beauty and quality of the stones.
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I agree 100% with Diamondseeker. I would never personally choose a sapphire based on whether it was heated or not as a deciding factor. I would look at the stone and try to find something that has a beautiful consistent color and eye clean. I was reading a book about Louis Comfort Tiffany''s philosophy on creating jewelry as art. He was of the mindset that he didn''t really care where a stone was mined from, or even if the so-called experts believed that the stone was "valuable". He wanted to achieve a certain look for a piece of jewelry. He would use all sorts of semi-precious stones to create masterpieces. He used Montana sapphires without hesitation if the color they possessed were correct. And a lot of those very same pieces are in museums all around the world. So, don''t get hung up on where the stone came from or whether or not it was heated. Focus on the stone itself and decide if you love it, b/c you will be looking at it every day if you set it in a ring. :-) (Can I just tell you guys how much i LOVE this site??)
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I am not adverse to a gently heated stone. The colour on the AJS stone looks saturated and velvety. There might be a small window that will be further minimized when set. If budget isn't an issue, I'd get an unheated just for bragging rights, otherwise, I see no reason not to get an unheated sapphire. The heating gets rid of undesireable undertones and the colour is stable. Some heated stones look tons better than unheated stones. Ask AJS for a side view picture too.
 
i am not adverse to a heated stone.....however, a BE-treated stone would not be acceptable.

movie zombie
 
I have been looking at sapphires for a couple months now, and I can say, I cannot tell the difference between the heated ones and un-heated ones. My fovorate one in my price range was infact heated. From what jelelers have told me, heating alone is considered accecptable, but any treatment that may not be long lasting, you should shy away from. There also tends to be a price difference between the heated and unheated stones, with the heated ones being more expensive as a nice unheated stone is harder to find. Hope this helps.
 
There isn''t really a difference in look between heated and non-heated until you get down to details. They both come in lots of colours.

For example, ''silk'' inclusions in sapphires which can give a lovely velvety look will be broken down or seriously damaged by heating.

I would be much more interested in colour and cut than whether a stone was heated, unless I was specifically after an unheated stone.

I would happily buy a heated sapphire for a jewellery project, but I would want an unheated stone for my ''rocks in a box'' project.

Heating turns a lot of lower-grade sapphire into beautiful gems - which as long as treatment is disclosed can only be a good thing and bring pleasure to a lot of people.

I wouldn''t personally touch anything other than gentle heating - I would avoid Be and be wary of some of the stones that are heated with other substances to improve colour and clarity.
 
Thanks so very much, all.

---

What is BE treated?
 
I totally agree with all of the above.. heating, from what I understand, is just a way of intensifying color. When I talked to Dave Atlas about it during our appraisal, he said that usually heating goes "almost to the point of melting." Some people seem to think that might increase the brittleness of the stone, but I don''t see it as particularly significant -- especially if you''re not looking at something that will be worn every day. Boyfriend and I (or rather.. I..) wanted something non-heated non-treated, but mostly because it''s our engagement stone and there''s something sort of charming about a truly "natural" stone.

BE = From what I can tell, there''s some kind of surface diffusion treatment that''s done with beryllium to intensify the blue in some sapphires. There are also irradiated sapphires and all kinds of crazy stuff out there.. but for the most part the recommended vendors on PS are all very trustworthy and the more sketchy treatments aren''t really used on their stones. Or at least, that''s the impression I get. I think the irradiated stuff might be more common with the lesser known vendors out there...
 
BE ( beryllium ) treatment involves high heat with beryllium containing material mixed with the sapphires. Originally used to remove bluish coloration, making for more vivid yellow, pink, pad shade of sapphires. Now techniques are also used to enhance blue heated also.
Unheated sapphires ( usually determined by inclusion studies) are generally safe, any heated ones could be possible BE treated unless specialized lab testing is done.

Contrary to what many dealers claim, IMO it is not an accepted standard connected with heating. The color can penetrate to the center of a stone with lengthy processing, but usually done such to produce a "rind" of color and sometimes visible zoning.

Here is an article from Colored Stone

Sometimes BE with HEAT is called "New Treatment" or something they infer is acceptable.
Jim

p.s. I once bought a very inexpensive blue sapphire to re-cut, but it had a blue rind about 1mm thick and was an ugly splotchy yellow stone inside
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Woah. That article was awesome! Anywhere from 1750 to 1850 C for 25 to 300 hours?!?! Crazytalk. Y''all can feel free to laugh at me now: I was afraid I''d accidentally shower with my ring or something and it would get too hot and I would hurt it. Ha! Yes, pamplemousse, sapphires are rocks. Dummy.
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Anyway.

Sonoma, that sapphire looks super pretty! I love the color. It seems like heat treatment has been around for a looooong time without many adverse affects. I say go for it!
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It is a personal preference. I got an untreated sapphire for my wife''s engagement ring due to a certain mindset of rarity/emotion (as someone else also said for their e-ring) , but since then I continue prefer to purchase colored stones with no treatment of any kind. Again a mindset/emotional issue I suppose.

I seem to recall an expert (Vincent?) posted here on PS that he thought the best untreated sapphires looked better than the best treated.

an intersting series of photos on treatment.
 
Date: 3/19/2008 1:40:17 PM
Author:sonomacounty
Hi. I''m looking for a sapphire/spinel to replace a diamond I removed from a setting.

Can you tell me about the color difference between a natural sapphire v. a heated one?

Thanks.

---

Also, what do you think about this sapphire? Thanks.

http://www.ajsgems.com/product/47ac00be-b371-455d-b1b2-7b7da8330de0.aspx
Click to expand...
I can tell you this about the blues that are in fact unheated.

They have a very distinct silver tone to them, and when you see that under the light, there is a powdercoat effect that glitters that you won''t see in an heated stone. Secondly, the unheated ones that are clean and don''t have the zoning in them have a certain glow. If you''ve ever seen the glow of a heated sapphire under strong halogen lamps, it''s nothing compared to an unheated.

I can''t speak for the other colors, but it''s one of those things where you almost have to see it to belive it. There is a certain character in an unheated stone that you won''t find in a heated one. I am not saying heated is bad as I have both heated and unheated specimens. The thing is, pictures don''t really do the unheated ones justice.

It depends a bit on the origin of the stone too. Different stones of different origins have a slightly different silk than others when they''re unheated. For instance, an unheated Madagascar sapphire has a silk that you see mainly on the exterior of the stone and nowhere else. With a Burma or a Ceylon, it''s another story. If you saw a Kashmir, those have a very distinctive silk unique unto themselves.

The big thing about heated vs. unheated now is that with the treatmeants out there in the market now, it can be tough to discern unless you really know what you''re looking for and looking at. So if you know the stone is unheated, you know it hasn''t been diffusion treated or anything else of the like.

A heated sapphire can be quite beautiful. An unheated can be just as gorgeous, but they are both unique in their own way.

If you have the chance to see an unheated stone, you''ll know when you see it. You can generally tell right away.
 
Date: 3/26/2008 8:18:20 PM
Author: jszweda

I can tell you this about the blues that are in fact unheated.

They have a very distinct silver tone to them, and when you see that under the light, there is a powdercoat effect that glitters that you won't see in an heated stone. Secondly, the unheated ones that are clean and don't have the zoning in them have a certain glow. If you've ever seen the glow of a heated sapphire under strong halogen lamps, it's nothing compared to an unheated.

I can't speak for the other colors, but it's one of those things where you almost have to see it to belive it. There is a certain character in an unheated stone that you won't find in a heated one. I am not saying heated is bad as I have both heated and unheated specimens. The thing is, pictures don't really do the unheated ones justice.

It depends a bit on the origin of the stone too. Different stones of different origins have a slightly different silk than others when they're unheated. For instance, an unheated Madagascar sapphire has a silk that you see mainly on the exterior of the stone and nowhere else. With a Burma or a Ceylon, it's another story. If you saw a Kashmir, those have a very distinctive silk unique unto themselves.

The big thing about heated vs. unheated now is that with the treatmeants out there in the market now, it can be tough to discern unless you really know what you're looking for and looking at. So if you know the stone is unheated, you know it hasn't been diffusion treated or anything else of the like.

A heated sapphire can be quite beautiful. An unheated can be just as gorgeous, but they are both unique in their own way.

If you have the chance to see an unheated stone, you'll know when you see it. You can generally tell right away.
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Hi Joe,

Do you have a link to an article or something on the two bits I've highlighted? I'd be really interested to read them as it's something I haven't come across in any of my books or noticed in any of the stones I have looked at - including the large collection of unheated sapphire that I have examined pretty closely in the Natural History Museum in London. I'm going back for another look now.

I also understood that sapphires with strong fluorescence were generally Sri Lankan in origin?

I also don't really understand how the silk would only be on the exterior of the Madagascan stones - as this would involve the cutter having to cut to only that level? Stones I have seen - if they have silk - have it a various points in no 'particular' place in the stone. Or is there something I'm not understanding here?
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Wow, awesome information.

I decided not to go with that stone just due to it being round. I had a round setting to fill and it would have fit it but I''m facing the fact that I''m just not a round person (prefer square, cushion or unique shapes). It was a pretty stone, though.

Thanks again, for all your help. Really knowledgable (& great) people here.
 
Date: 3/26/2008 9:11:14 PM
Author: sonomacounty
Wow, awesome information.

I decided not to go with that stone just due to it being round. I had a round setting to fill and it would have fit it but I''m facing the fact that I''m just not a round person (prefer square, cushion or unique shapes). It was a pretty stone, though.

Thanks again, for all your help. Really knowledgable (& great) people here.
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, it was either GRS or ruby-sapphire.com that said something about the silk being visible mainly on the exterior of the stone on the Madagascar stones as an anomoly. It has nothing to do with the cutting, it''s just one of those fluke things that is a tell tale sign it''s from Madagascar. I think it was one of those 2 sites, but I can''t recall 100%. It might have been a lab in Asia, but Ruby-sapphire.com is an excellent site on these things.

As far as the other highlighted part goes, I speak from personal experience.

With the strong flourescence, barring synthetic stones, if a sapphire is heated, it will exhibit a blue flurescence with a UV laser. The exception to that, some Madagascar stones won''t, and the theory there is due to the presence of Boron and Lithium as trace elements within the crystal matrix. Barring that, a heated stone (such as a Ceylon and many other origins) will glow. However, an unheated sapphire will be very inert if it has not been heated.

HTH
-joe
 
Date: 3/19/2008 1:40:17 PM
Author:sonomacounty
Hi. I''m looking for a sapphire/spinel to replace a diamond I removed from a setting.

Can you tell me about the color difference between a natural sapphire v. a heated one?

Thanks.

---

Also, what do you think about this sapphire? Thanks.

http://www.ajsgems.com/product/47ac00be-b371-455d-b1b2-7b7da8330de0.aspx
Click to expand...
That is a very nice stone. Personally I prefer a larger size, but that''s me. Regardless, it''s nice and I''ve acquired many an item from AJS. He is a reputable vendor, and I''ve never encountered an issue with him. I can attest to that, and I can attest that on ocassion, he might under rate his stone or he might be a little on the stricter side of grading, etc. Me and my mother have ordered a few sapphires from him actually. He''s great to deal with.

I will also say this in the course of trying to help Mom find a nice sapphire. It has come to the point where the high end retailers are having to resort to estate pieces for Ceylon sapphires, and I am not sure how bad the flooding is in Madagascar from the hurricane from a month or so ago. The political situation in Ceylon has gotten that bad to where it''s interfered with production. So keep that in mind as you shop, and whatever you decide on.

HTH
 
Date: 3/27/2008 12:37:03 AM
Author: jszweda


Date: 3/19/2008 1:40:17 PM
Author:sonomacounty
Hi. I'm looking for a sapphire/spinel to replace a diamond I removed from a setting.

Can you tell me about the color difference between a natural sapphire v. a heated one?

Thanks.

---

Also, what do you think about this sapphire? Thanks.

http://www.ajsgems.com/product/47ac00be-b371-455d-b1b2-7b7da8330de0.aspx
Click to expand...
That is a very nice stone. Personally I prefer a larger size, but that's me. Regardless, it's nice and I've acquired many an item from AJS. He is a reputable vendor, and I've never encountered an issue with him. I can attest to that, and I can attest that on ocassion, he might under rate his stone or he might be a little on the stricter side of grading, etc. Me and my mother have ordered a few sapphires from him actually. He's great to deal with.

I will also say this in the course of trying to help Mom find a nice sapphire. It has come to the point where the high end retailers are having to resort to estate pieces for Ceylon sapphires, and I am not sure how bad the flooding is in Madagascar from the hurricane from a month or so ago. The political situation in Ceylon has gotten that bad to where it's interfered with production. So keep that in mind as you shop, and whatever you decide on.

HTH
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This is not the case in the Ratnapura area - I have contacts in the business over there - and I was speaking to the Sri Lankan High Commissioner in the UK last week about the situation - as I am going out there in October.

She told me that other than a couple of incidents in Colombo last month, the Southern area of the country and specifically the Ratnapura area is entirely unaffected.

I really don't know where you are getting your information from - but there is plenty of high-end stuff coming out of Sri Lanka. The government specifically bans any form of mechanised mining - which has ensured that it is a sustainable industry for many years. I saw some very fine pieces 10 days ago of Sri Lankan origin - unheated, and recently brought in. The place seling them was Holts - the main gem lab for the UK which has impeccable credentials.
 
Date: 3/27/2008 7:32:42 AM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 3/27/2008 12:37:03 AM
Author: jszweda



Date: 3/19/2008 1:40:17 PM
Author:sonomacounty
Hi. I''m looking for a sapphire/spinel to replace a diamond I removed from a setting.

Can you tell me about the color difference between a natural sapphire v. a heated one?

Thanks.

---

Also, what do you think about this sapphire? Thanks.

http://www.ajsgems.com/product/47ac00be-b371-455d-b1b2-7b7da8330de0.aspx
Click to expand...
That is a very nice stone. Personally I prefer a larger size, but that''s me. Regardless, it''s nice and I''ve acquired many an item from AJS. He is a reputable vendor, and I''ve never encountered an issue with him. I can attest to that, and I can attest that on ocassion, he might under rate his stone or he might be a little on the stricter side of grading, etc. Me and my mother have ordered a few sapphires from him actually. He''s great to deal with.

I will also say this in the course of trying to help Mom find a nice sapphire. It has come to the point where the high end retailers are having to resort to estate pieces for Ceylon sapphires, and I am not sure how bad the flooding is in Madagascar from the hurricane from a month or so ago. The political situation in Ceylon has gotten that bad to where it''s interfered with production. So keep that in mind as you shop, and whatever you decide on.

HTH
Click to expand...
This is not the case in the Ratnapura area - I have contacts in the business over there - and I was speaking to the Sri Lankan High Commissioner in the UK last week about the situation - as I am going out there in October.

She told me that other than a couple of incidents in Colombo last month, the Southern area of the country and specifically the Ratnapura area is entirely unaffected.

I really don''t know where you are getting your information from - but there is plenty of high-end stuff coming out of Sri Lanka. The government specifically bans any form of mechanised mining - which has ensured that it is a sustainable industry for many years. I saw some very fine pieces 10 days ago of Sri Lankan origin - unheated, and recently brought in. The place seling them was Holts - the main gem lab for the UK which has impeccable credentials.
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Thanks for the info as I''ve been told from different places-on in particular that they can''t get Ceylon material. So assuming what you say is true (and I am not saying it''s not) why then did this one place say if it had to be a Ceylon, they can''t get it outside of an estate piece?

Various places I''ve spoke with (varying in clientelle from the low to the high end) have said they are having a difficult time finding these things. Why that is if there is plenty of stuff coming out, I''d like to know why that is then. That''s quite interesting.
 
Date: 3/27/2008 12:40:20 PM
Author: jszweda

Thanks for the info as I''ve been told from different places-on in particular that they can''t get Ceylon material. So assuming what you say is true (and I am not saying it''s not) why then did this one place say if it had to be a Ceylon, they can''t get it outside of an estate piece?

Various places I''ve spoke with (varying in clientelle from the low to the high end) have said they are having a difficult time finding these things. Why that is if there is plenty of stuff coming out, I''d like to know why that is then. That''s quite interesting.
Click to expand...
That''s interesting - could it have to do with the weak dollar? Perhaps dealers are sitting on their stock. I heard that a lot of the stuff at Tucson this year was overpriced and heat-treated - but that was mainly from the Thai dealers.

I spoke to one of my Sri Lankan friends a couple of hours ago and his info was that the LTTE have decided to call a ceasefire in recent days. He also said he hadn''t heard anything about a shortage of decent stones.

I also spoke to a couple of Sri Lankan dealers in Hatton Garden - I didn''t like a lot of their stones due to cut, but in discussions with them about markets in general thay gave no indication that there was a problem (the companies were Sri Lankan owned - the staff were 50/50). There were enough other comments in the conversations about different things that makes me feel that they weren''t pulling a cover-up or anything.

And, as I said I saw the stones in Holts. I''m not in the market for sapphires right now - mainly because I''m going out there in October - so I wasn''t paying specific attention as I was more interested in garnets that afternoon!

I would have thought finding fine ceylons in estate pieces would be a needle in a haystack scenario to a certain point - especially one where it made sense to break the setting down.

Interested if you have any more info on this...
 
Date: 3/27/2008 1:02:45 PM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 3/27/2008 12:40:20 PM
Author: jszweda

Thanks for the info as I''ve been told from different places-on in particular that they can''t get Ceylon material. So assuming what you say is true (and I am not saying it''s not) why then did this one place say if it had to be a Ceylon, they can''t get it outside of an estate piece?

Various places I''ve spoke with (varying in clientelle from the low to the high end) have said they are having a difficult time finding these things. Why that is if there is plenty of stuff coming out, I''d like to know why that is then. That''s quite interesting.
Click to expand...
That''s interesting - could it have to do with the weak dollar? Perhaps dealers are sitting on their stock. I heard that a lot of the stuff at Tucson this year was overpriced and heat-treated - but that was mainly from the Thai dealers.

I spoke to one of my Sri Lankan friends a couple of hours ago and his info was that the LTTE have decided to call a ceasefire in recent days. He also said he hadn''t heard anything about a shortage of decent stones.

I also spoke to a couple of Sri Lankan dealers in Hatton Garden - I didn''t like a lot of their stones due to cut, but in discussions with them about markets in general thay gave no indication that there was a problem (the companies were Sri Lankan owned - the staff were 50/50). There were enough other comments in the conversations about different things that makes me feel that they weren''t pulling a cover-up or anything.

And, as I said I saw the stones in Holts. I''m not in the market for sapphires right now - mainly because I''m going out there in October - so I wasn''t paying specific attention as I was more interested in garnets that afternoon!

I would have thought finding fine ceylons in estate pieces would be a needle in a haystack scenario to a certain point - especially one where it made sense to break the setting down.

Interested if you have any more info on this...
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Hmmm...the plot thickens. I''ve heard of the cease fires in the past, and they come and go.

So if what you''re saying is true, someone''s trying to pull a DeBeers number or something? It would make sense. Based on what you''re saying, someone then is telling the retailers a lot of stories or something. My way, good sapphires of any given size...forget it. If you want something besides blue my way, good luck with a few exceptions.

Forutunately, Mom did find a Ceylon elsewhere. Retail locally doesn''t really have anything beyond 2 carats. If you want something beyond that, then it gets tricky for some reason with a few exceptions. The color she was looking for, we couldn''t find anything in the size she was looking for short of a 5 carat or larger stone-which was a little out of budget.

I''ll give you an example. We went to one place-that you have to be buzzed into. That''s funny but another thread all together. We told the woman we were looking for something in the 3-3.5 carat range, strong blue with maybe somewhere between medium and medium dark tone. The only thing she had (that I know of) was a super pure blue Burma, but that wasn''t the color that we were looking for. When we said Ceylon, they said they had to go through a secondary market. I asked her if she could find the same specs in a Madagascar, not a problem.

So given what you''re telling me, and assuming production hasn''t been interrupted there, something doesn''t add up. It would make sense for a given dealer or group of dealers to stockpile the stuff given other political events on the globe and the rising interest in colored stones in different places.
 
If you are looking for top-colour blue ceylon sapphires why are you bothering to go to B&M stores?

Why not go to Palagems or contact one of the PS vendors who will have a far bigger range of contacts than you will be able to find...
 
Date: 3/27/2008 1:32:48 PM
Author: tradergirl
I just bought this sapphire (unheated). It sounds beautiful and I can''t wait to see it in person.

http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/4931
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Oh, tradergirl. I was just thinking that Wildfish Gems has beautiful Ceylon sapphires. Be sure to start your own thread when that beauty arrives!
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Here''s a nice unheated blue from Sri Lanka:


ETA: The ceasefire is pretty definite this time - at least for the forseeable future.

11346.jpg
 
Date: 3/27/2008 2:49:24 PM
Author: Pandora II
Here''s a nice unheated blue from Sri Lanka:


ETA: The ceasefire is pretty definite this time - at least for the forseeable future.
Click to expand...

Now that is gorgeous gemstone!
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7.04 of Pala perfection...
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Well, one can dream...
 
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