Comparison of my Canera and Diamonds by Lauren settings

yssie · Feb 6, 2012

yssie · Feb 6, 2012

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yssie · Feb 6, 2012

Workmanship.
The DBL is just unarguably superior in this regard.

--A) The DBL's baskets are delicate, well-rounded, and polished to a high shine. The second process pic that Charmy put together in my reset thread shows the overall aesthetic differences and the way the more delicate, rounded baskets fit well with the curvy, flowy trellis aesthetic (I don't think it's fair to compare a finished ring and an empty setting so this is the next best thing!)

Canera L, DBL R

Canera L, DBL R

--B) The final exterior and interior polish is fantastic on the DBL, less impressive on the VC. Obviously the exterior won't stay mirror-shiny for long, the interior, though... you can see how much cleaner the interior of the DBL is in the basket undersides pic above...

--C) The solder/welding joins between the trellis wire elements are much cleaner on the DBL. Ignore the scratching on the VC.

DBL L, Canera R

--D) The "instep" (I don't know what else to call it, the area on the inside of the shank where shank meets trellis structure and endstone) is polished in both, the finish is much cleaner in the DBL though. Since the sidestones are set a bit higher (too low and they wouldn't all fit across my finger!) this area is visible, though of course only to someone inspecting the ring closely.

Canera top, DBL bottom

--E) An (admittedly minor) gripe: the prongs on the DBL are graduated, largest on the centre and smallest on the endstones. The prongs on the VC were originally all of the same size, which is also a pretty look, but after the centerstone re-orientation the prongs on the centre wound up being visibly smaller than the prongs on the sidestones. Not a crisis, and something that could be easily remedied after the fact I'm sure, but it annoyed me when I got it because IMO it's a bit like finishing the job with a superb polish - at these prices I expect that it's just something that's noted and dealt with before the piece is sent out.

--F) Centerstone orientation. I think this is part Workmanship and part Aesthetic. Both vendors got it wrong first time around - actually, VC got it wrong (okay, mistakes happen) and DBL disregarded my detailed instructions (yeah, no star for that one). So I sent both back.

I wanted the stone oriented a very specific way (because of inclusions), which was complicated because
A) My stone is large enough that crown angle and crown facet-meets matter,
B) My stone has a higher than normal crown, making said angles and facet-meets *really* matter, and
C) I wanted the 8 prongs to all be on the upper girdle facets, meaning first that the 8 prongs radially symmetric around the stone are all pressuring in a certain direction, encouraging it to turn so that the prongs rest on the low kite facets, and second that the prongs might be long enough to bisect the UGF/kite facet meets, and if the prongtips extend onto the lower kite facets and aren't pressed down fully they catch on *everything*.

VC was unable to orient the stone the way I wanted, with the prongs high on the UGFs - the stone would not stay in position. He rested the prongs low on the UGFs and the prongtips did extend beyond the UGF and catch, but I'm sure if I'd sent it back he'd have rectified that. I don't know what they did differently but DBL oriented the stone perfectly second time round and did a nice job of making sure the prongtips don't catch, and I suspect will be more inclined to simply take me at my word next time

yssie · Feb 6, 2012

Aesthetic.
This one is messy since there's really no absolute Right and Wrong, but since it's my ring I'll just share my observations...

--A) Milgrain on the VC is much more delicate than on the DBL. I now know that I prefer this super-fine milgrain. I didn't specify milgrain beyond "top of baskets only" and sent them a pic of Haven's beauty, which also has bolder milgrain, and that's exactly what I got! I'm adding this to Aesthetic instead of Workmanship because I'm confident that if I'd requested a very fine milgrain they would've done that, though then the result wouldn't have looked like my inspiration (Haven's ring).

--B) The taper of the shank, and the shank/trelllis attachment. I like the way the DBL tapers in width (from ~2.6mm palm-side to 1.8mm at the shoulders). The real difference is in the way the end-prong is attached - the DBL shank tapers into the endprong, the VC endprong is a small piece of wire soldered on. The triangular side-engravings on the VC help give the illusion of a taper when they catch the light properly, but when the light is unflattering the lack of taper is evident and it is not to my taste. The trellis/shank attachment was the main reason for the reset... there's plenty on that in the reset threads, I won't go into it again here! Long story short it's mostly about the differences in possibilities and limitations of handforging/casting. The VC shank is handforged (a solid bar w/ oblong cross-section bent then polished to be domed) and the DBL shank is cast.

DBL L, Canera R

--C) The lines of the trellis wires are smoother and more fluid to my eyes on the DBL, both in pics and IRL.

Canera top, DBL bottom

--D) A pic of the difference in colour of the metal alloys (the VC nickel wg is creamy and the DBL is palladium wg is much whiter, and at the end of the day I do like the creamy Ni-wg better)

Canera top, DBL bottom

ETA: just realised this is probably a good place for a pics of the finished rings

DBL top, Canera bottom

yssie · Feb 6, 2012

Experience. I've learnt a lot.

Both VC and David are really great to work with - both are courteous and professional, and both can be counted on to actually communicate (well)!! Both also work quickly - my VC was done in 3 weeks and the DBL in 4. To re-do this project they'd be comparable in terms of cost.

Ultimately, I like the DBL better - I like the way it looks better, and I feel it was more carefully and more perfectly crafted and finished, with more attention to detail. I also think, based on some of the details that I didn't specify (the highly angled sidestones, the roundedness of all elements, the gradually bent wires) that they really understood the swoopy, fluid Look and Feel that I wanted.

Of course, with the DBL, we already had the VC model - we weren't starting from scratch, which put us several legs up the ladder. I have learnt that I simply cannot embark on a custom project of such significance with a vendor who is not prepared to give me control. VC prefers to keep his creating process private, and I accepted that - I underestimated how important it would be for me to be able to direct the nuances: the hurdles we anticipated before getting started we overcame no problem, it was the things that we hadn't thought of that turned out to be problematic, but of course by the end it was too late to sufficiently alter the finished ring.

The four take-home messages from that:
-Custom work is always an unknown,
-Confirm that I'll have input and veto rights throughout,
-Ask what happens if I don't like something I see during manufacture,
-Ask what happens if I don't like the finished product.

I've also learnt that one type of manufacture (handforging vs. casting specifically) truly isn't inherently superior to the other if the final look of the piece isn't what you want! Handforging is just better for some things, and casting is just better for others, and in my case the best thing to do was to use both!

I can't say enough how much I appreciate that David opened the doors and let me in. He talked me through each step, showed me photos and videos and asked if everything was okay to move onto the next step, and didn't hesitate to tell me that "only one thing I know is irreversible - and it's got nothing to do with rings

" and that "I promise, we'll make sure you're happy" (those are quotes). His answers to the above four questions were yes, it is; yes, I will, it's not what they usually do but for you, given the situation, we'll do that; we'll roll back and re-think/re-do; we won't let that happen period.

DBL has earned a long-term customer in me. Their bench does exquisite work, the attention to detail is everything I expect from artists, David has an excellent bedside manner (and I know I'm not an easygoing customer), and I know that they'll work with my needs to be comfortable with the transaction.

AprilBaby · Feb 6, 2012

Nice summary and your ring is gorgeous!!!

0-0-0 · Feb 6, 2012

Thank you for posting the comparison! The closeup pictures are especially helpful. I can totally see what you mean by the finer milgrain on the VC, and the cleaner joints and more impressive polish on the DBL. I'm glad you have found a bench you are happy with and the ring looks stunning.

Enerchi · Feb 6, 2012

Thank you - those photos and your summative were extremely informative! Well written - and a beautiful ring! Thank you Yssie!

Cachette · Feb 6, 2012

Thanks Yssie. Very informative!

Your ring is just dreamy.......

Cachette

Cachette · Feb 6, 2012

Thanks Yssie. Very informative!

Your ring is just dreamy.......

Cachette

Dandi · Feb 6, 2012

Wow! The close up pics really highlight the differences that at a glance are probably fairly subtle. You've done a great job Yssie, thanks for the comparison. Very interesting!

packrat · Feb 6, 2012

What a great review and comparison, Yssie! It was really interesting!

anne_h · Feb 6, 2012

Thank you for the detailed explanations and pics.

I'm a big VC fan myself, but I can see why you are happier with your DBL version. Congrats on getting your dream setting made!

BTW, I thought your summary was very fair.

Anne

alene · Feb 6, 2012

Wow,the DBL close ups are impressive! Thanks for such a detailed review! I'm really considering DBLfor my reset in a few months, even more so after seeing this.

sparklyforever · Feb 6, 2012

This was very interesting. Thanks for posting. This is my question.. We know LM, SK and VC as doing custom by hand.. But who is actually doing it for DBL? Any idea?

Skippy123 · Feb 6, 2012

I am so glad you posted this; this will help so many. Wow Diamonds by Lauren is so fluid and perfect!! Both are gorgeous but DBL looks like perfection! Thank you!!!

stargurl78 · Feb 6, 2012

Yssie, this is very informative and I think your review was fair. Thank you for sharing!

diamondseeker2006 · Feb 6, 2012

I think this thread illustrates yet again that it is best to use a vendor who you know from previous work that they can make the style of ring you want to a high degree of perfection. Yssie, of course your ring was unique so it was impossible for you to know that upfront. But if I wanted a ring like Frankie's, I would still go straight to VC because he is a master at pave in platinum. I'd have to see more work from DBL to see which style rings aside from yours that they excel in. You've given very good advice about what to ask upfront, though. Custom can be very scary and very rewarding when it works, but it can be a very expensive process when it takes 2 or 3 tries to get the ring right. Threads like this are very helpful as long as people keep in mind that some benches excel in certain designs and not so much with others. I sort of cringe when newbies come on the forum planning to have their local jeweler custom make a ring!

I am just glad you you were finally able to get the ring you had envisioned, Yssie!!! It is certainly beautiful and DBL did a great job!

yssie · Feb 6, 2012

Thanks April, thb, Enerchi, Cachette, Dandi, packrat, anne, alene, sparkly, Skippy, stargurl, DS. I do adore my ring

I'm glad this thread is helpful - and I'm equally glad you feel I've been fair. I'm trying.

sparkly - yes, I do know who heads DBL's bench, but David has requested that I don't share this information and I'll respect that

All my communications went through David.

DS - In some ways I totally agree, in some ways I totally disagree.

I agree that VC's pave looks incredible in photos. DBL's pave looks incredible in-person, but not having had the opportunity to closely examine both at the same time (and not having experience with pave in general) I'm not going to try to compare, I'll leave that to the Charmys and Gypsys of PS

. It's definitely really, really important to make sure the bench one chooses can do the type of work you want!

However, unpolished undersides of the various elements, the differences in soldering/welding work... this isn't a matter of taste, it's a matter of A) attention to detail, and B) skill with the metalwork. At this price and calibre all pieces should be fully polished, and all metalwork should be that clean, and so the only explanations left to me seem to be that either VC did a particularly careless job with my ring or he lacks the skill and attention to detail to do as DBL did, neither of which are favourable reviews...

Bella_mezzo · Feb 6, 2012

the dbl is so fluid!!!!!!!

i love vc's work as well, especially his pave work, but I also prefer the dbl in this case.

I am so glad that you ended up with the ring you love!!!

CharmyPoo · Feb 6, 2012

Thanks for the detailed review and awesome close up shots. I think it is fair that the second / third attemps are always better because we learn from our mistakes and are able to give more detailed instructions. Vendors that work on later attemps also have the benefit of understanding things you don't like and one upping the first attempt.

I am planning to embark on a very experimental design and I am struggling to decide if I should or not - disaster waiting to happen but I still want to do it. Leon already declined the job because he thinks that to make the design work he will need to do a bulkier design and I won't be happy with the results. Steven is ready for the challenge and he knows my taste as well. I am also considering DBL for the project.

yssie · Feb 6, 2012

Thanks, Bella!

CharmyPoo|1328583815|3120622 said:
Thanks for the detailed review and awesome close up shots. I think it is fair that the second / third attemps are always better because we learn from our mistakes and are able to give more detailed instructions. Vendors that work on later attemps also have the benefit of understanding things you don't like and one upping the first attempt.

I am planning to embark on a very experimental design and I am struggling to decide if I should or not - disaster waiting to happen but I still want to do it. Leon already declined the job because he thinks that to make the design work he will need to do a bulkier design and I won't be happy with the results. Steven is ready for the challenge and he knows my taste as well. I am also considering DBL for the project.

Definitely. Getting the aesthetic of a new design perfect on the first try... either CAD, some mind-reading or close history with a vendor who really knows your tastes, or a whole lot of luck!

Can you share more about what you're thinking? I'm intrigued!

diamondseeker2006 · Feb 6, 2012

Yssie, just to clarify, I got the impression from Frankie that her Victor ring was impeccably finished and better than both LM and SK. That is why I said what I did about personally choosing him for pave (not that I am planning to ever make a pave ring, though!). I just haven't seen Victor work much in gold, and he certainly didn't have experience with that design, so I just don't think your ring was his typical work in any respect. Knowing Frankie, I don't think she would have given him a pass on the finishing after she had a chance to compare it to Leon and SK! She certainly showed how unhappy she was with the interior finish on the SK ring.

Imdanny · Feb 7, 2012

Thanks for the comparison, Yssie. It is surprising to me that someone on VC's level would leave surfaces unfinished. Ultimately, your DBL ring is superb in every way! Congratulations again! I love a happy ending!

Victor Canera · Feb 7, 2012

Hi Yssie,

Since I'm one of the vendors in question here I think I need to make a couple of clarifications.

I'm perfectly fine with you doing a comparison but the photos that you're posting of my ring was NOT the condition that it was shipped to you. To prove my point I'm attaching an unaltered, high-res close-up of the ring when it left my shop. In its new and original condition from my shop the trellis wires were almost perfect.

Here is a photo that you took after I re-worked the ring.

If the goal was to have an objective comparison I think you could have used photos that you took when the ring arrived to you the first time.

The comparison here is between a used ring and a newly polished one. Even though you mention "don't mind the scratched on my ring" I can see here that the removal of the diamonds by another bench has caused some damage to the wires. There is an art of removing diamonds from a setting.

A more apt comparison would have between two rings made of the same type of metal of the same design. We have a nickel alloyed ring on one hand and a Palladium alloyed one on the other. It wouldn't be fair if you compared two painters for example if one used canvas and the other vellum or something. Each alloy has its pluses and minuses. I would have preferred to to work in Palladium alloyed gold but wasn't given that option. It would be doubly unfair if you compared the work of the painter's after one had gone through some abuse.

I understood that you were un-happy with the way the last prong flowed into the shank. I did make a recommendation to you before starting of using a tri-wire shank. In my own words, "because of its seamlessness from shank to trellis wires." There would have been no transition because the whole ring would have been made of wires. Going through your reset thread, I see that you've asked other Pricescopers about their opinion on this specific recommendation I made. To accommodate you I took the extraordinary step (for me at least) of re-working a ring that was already complete. The hand-engraving was added after the ring was completed without planning for it in the initial design and other parts of the ring were re-worked. Putting a ring back to the bench after it's completed in general isn't an ideal scenario. That was the reason you were hearing some resistance from me towards tweaking a completed ring.

I'm saddened that my version of your ring wasn't the one that made you 100% happy. Having said all this, I'm still proud of the ring that I produced for you. Last time I heard from you, you said that you were still happy with it.

I wish you the best.

Rockdiamond · Feb 7, 2012

HI all,
Yssie- I take my hat off to you. This is a very informative thread- and probably for different reasons if the reader is a consumer, or a tradesperson.
I had some thoughts formulating but I wanted to touch on this one straight away:

sparklyforever said:
This was very interesting. Thanks for posting. This is my question.. We know LM, SK and VC as doing custom by hand.. But who is actually doing it for DBL? Any idea?

If any company named above has the owner doing all the setting polishing fabricating etc, hats off to them
There's over 30 people working in the factory that made yssie's ring. The man who did the phenomenal fabricating is not the best at other jobs.
We do not own the factory that made the ring- however with the volume of work we give them, it's almost like we do. Surely our clients never feel the difference.,
We have a few other factories also in similar situations. This allows us to make a wider variety of price points and styles.

**edited by moderator. please watch your posts for self promotion. It is not allowed on PS**

yssie · Feb 7, 2012

Victor -

Thank you for coming into this thread to clarify, I think if you have clarifications discussion is the best thing we can do. If there's something you'd prefer to email me privately, I'll of course respect that as well.

I thought I made clear that the scratches on the outside should be ignored, if not I apologise - in hindsight I should've put that in bold and added further explanation. The polish was originally not as perfect, all over, as on the DBL, but for anyone reading this thread who is unclear on this: weeks of wear and unsetting the stones HAS left marks on the exterior of the finish and the DBL is in pristine condition in these photos.

Unfortunately I did not take closeups of the finish of this ring when I first received it, so to be fair, again, for others reading this thread who might question: in no part of my comparison posts do I intend to compare the finish on the exterior through my photos because that is not a fair comparison! The finish of the underside of the baskets, "instep", and interior of the trellis wire strut are the only things I am comparing, and even that last is kinda take it on my word because photos just don't capture what I see.

Unsetting the stones caused the tops of the trellis wires that were holding the stone to become disfigured, but that had no effect on the shape and curve of remainder of the wire, and I'm only interested in the remainder of the wire. In fact, I put that part in the "Aesthetic" section for exactly that reason - someone might well prefer the sharper transitions in this ring, vs. the more gradual curve in the DBL that I like better.

One is a nickel alloy and one is a palladium alloy, is it impossible to weld/solder a nickel-alloy piece as cleanly as a palladium-alloy piece? If so, why? I was dead set on nickel for the colour, and as far as I know nickel alloy wg is more brittle and more of a PITA to bend, and it's something of a PITA to find a good colour-match for the solder, but there aren't any other issues. If it is simply not possible to join elements as cleanly with Ni-wg by welding and/or soldering, and that is something you knew going in, then I really think it's something that should've also been brought to my attention. When DBL said palladium-wg I was exhausted and pretty much said "wait, not nickel? Okay, fine, whatever, as long as it's not platinum"... and turns out I do in fact prefer the colour of the nickel alloy.

But, certainly, the end-result weld/solder joins have not taken any abuse from wear or unsetting the stones.

I did not want a tri-wire, and I assumed the shank could be done seamlessly without. Turns out it can't. My (erroneous) belief was that hand-forging could yield the same results as casting, only better (stronger, more scratch-resistent, lighter...), and I was wrong in assuming that one method of manufacture could be the better (not just easier, I mean, but better in every way) choice in every case. That's a VERY important and very basic message (and one that's very easy to ignore or forget, even for me, who's spent more time in a lab with all sorts of equipment than I care to imagine!): pick the right tool for the job.

I appreciated the engraving work done afterward, I'm sorry I didn't make that clear either. Without question it made a huge improvement to the visual... but it wasn't enough for me to be fully happy. When I last emailed you last I thought I could just deal with it, because the ring was in other ways really lovely, but I realised soon after that I needed to be fully happy.

ETA: The lightbulb went off! I think I've just figured out why DBL was able to orient the stone the way I wanted: the doughnut at the bottom that they insisted on, that holds everything together more strongly, and forces the prongs into enough tension to grip the stone despite an awkward fit.

Mike R · Feb 7, 2012

Yssie|1328634395|3120920 said:
Victor -

I did not want a tri-wire, and I assumed the shank could be done seamlessly without. Turns out it can't. My (erroneous) belief was that hand-forging could yield the same results as casting, only better (stronger, more scratch-resistent, lighter...), and I was wrong in assuming that one method of manufacture could be the better (not just easier, I mean, but better in every way) choice in every case. That's a VERY important and very basic message (and one that's very easy to ignore or forget, even for me, who's spent more time in a lab with all sorts of equipment than I care to imagine!): pick the right tool for the job.
.

Hi Yssie, I have been depating with my self if I should comment on this topic and decided to let it be but seeing this comment changed my mind.

I would just like to correct you a little, it is possible to hand forge a band exactly like your beautiful DBL band, you can make things just as graceful without the use of casting. You can see for yourself the results possible in your wire trellis.

Correct me if I am wrong but chances are that the wax for your DBL band was probably hand carved, the same skill and hand could have been used to carve a strip of metal into the same shape, only it would have taken longer in my experience.

One other way of hand forging a very graceful band like this is the cut the whole band out from a large ingot of metal, I find this method very helpful in making rings that might be difficult to bend up out of a strip.

Lastly I don't mean to imply that a cast band was the easy way out. Their workshop felt that they could personally deliver the best results by using a casting so for them it was correct to do so, but this will not always be the correct method of manufacture for different workshops.

I appoligise if I had took the incorrect meaning of this comment but from this comment and others I have seen I had the feeling that you were thinking that casting was the only way to get these results, it is not.

All the best Yssie, beautiful ring!

Victor Canera · Feb 7, 2012

I'll take you up on your offer to communicate privately.

I've already posted a photo of what the ring looked like previously, I'll let that speak for itself.

Yssie, you told me that the ring had to be in Nickel alloyed gold, could not have a cup for the center stone, the ring could not be made from a tri-wire shank and you gave me specifications for the width of the shank, something like 2.4mm or something with a rounded top if I remember correctly. I tried to be as faithful as I could to your drawing and to your vision. The last end prong on your drawing had the prong coming out of the shank.

Here is your drawing for reference.

Also, because of the choice of the more exotic type of metal, the joints needed to be gone over with a laser welder.

yssie · Feb 7, 2012

DS - from everything I've seen and heard neither DBL nor VC like to work with white gold of any alloy - David is still trying to convince me to go with platinum for my earrings!

I'm actually quite sure that VC does do excellent pave work, from both photos of his rings and from Frankie's review! But me, you know I don't care for pave...

ITA: super duper important to choose a vendor who's already done the style of work you want! That's Charmy's line and she's totally right.

Danny - Thank you, on both counts. Gosh, this thread is SO not fun

I feel pretty awful, but I also feel like I've done the right thing by PS. Bah.

Thanks David. Though I'll be bowing out of any micropave discussion!

Mike - I suspect you aren't alone in refraining from comenting!

Yes, the wax for the shank was hand-carved. And yes, picking the best tool for the job should first consider what the vendor thinks his bench can best use, another very important point!

Interesting... I'd never even considered that a vendor might carve a band from a cylinder. Don't know why - it seems like a good solution, especially for thicker bands that might be very difficult to bend and shape evenly.

In shaping the shank... I'm not entirely sure what I meant, exactly. A cast shank of the right shape and type is better than a handforged shank of the wrong shape and type. A handforged shank of the right shape and type would be better than a cast shank of the right shape and type... but is this a realistic expectation? That's actually a question btw, not rhetorical - I can imagine it'd involve serious dedication to that piece to carve and polish evenly and symmetrically and flawlessly, and since it's plain polished metal every kerfupple would be only too visible so there'd really not be any room for error at all... would this sort of labour be a reasonable thing to expect at my pricepoint (~6k)? If not, what would be a reasonable budget? Clearly the trellis structure benefits greatly from being handforged rather than cast - but depending on how much more one might expect to spend for a handforged and strip-carved shank we could be in diminishing-returns territory.
'Course, I also think H&A RBs are in diminishing returns territory and a whole lot of people disagree!

Victor - we seem to be having a dual discussion. That was the first pic, there were many more with further detail but all of them are already in the reset threads so I won't regurgitate it here.

I'm sorry. You might not believe me, but I get no pleasure from this at all.

Comparison of my Canera and Diamonds by Lauren settings

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Ideal_Rock

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