Crushed Ice Cushions...BAD???

[TakingthePlunge]

Garry,

Can you tell us what the second B/W picture is simulating? Where is the light source / where is the obstruction? I ask becuse the carre is clearly going to reflect back whatever is in the red angle range so I assume the B/W shot places an obstruction somewhere in the lighting for it to darken.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Here's my suggestion for moving this discussion forward- let's talk about the aspects of crushed ice that are visible to the eye- and if they are positive or negative- or taste based.
If we stray off course to debate reflectors, it takes our eye off the ball.

I am looking at the actual diamonds, and the images I have posted- as well as the simulalations, and aset imagery. This gives me a good ability to comment on the accuracy of what we're seeing.

Garry's latest youtubes seem to very closely mimic what I see in real life, with the limitation of motion I already discussed.
What does everyone think of Garry's simulation of the radiant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbWqY0y2Z9M

From my perspective, that simulation shows a lot of what I am saying.
Thousands of points of light- in no set pattern. The scintillation is rapid and dramatic ( there's a lot of sparkle)
To me, this suggests what a bucket of crushed ice might look like.

 

[Doc_1]

Here's my suggestion for moving this discussion forward- let's talk about the aspects of crushed ice that are visible to the eye- and if they are positive or negative- or taste based.
If we stray off course to debate reflectors, it takes our eye off the ball.

I am looking at the actual diamonds, and the images I have posted- as well as the simulalations, and aset imagery. This gives me a good ability to comment on the accuracy of what we're seeing.

Garry's latest youtubes seem to very closely mimic what I see in real life, with the limitation of motion I already discussed.
What does everyone think of Garry's simulation of the radiant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbWqY0y2Z9M

From my perspective, that simulation shows a lot of what I am saying.
Thousands of points of light- in no set pattern. The scintillation is rapid and dramatic ( there's a lot of sparkle)
To me, this suggests what a bucket of crushed ice might look like.

AGREE!
even if i said i won't buy that stone based on one photo, now looking at the real video, the simulation i will buy it in a heart beat if I am in the market for crushed ice looking diamond, that is an informed decision!

 

[slg47]

I am really enjoying this debate and find it to be extremely informative. However, RD, I would suggest that for all diamonds discussed it would be helpful to include as many representations possible (photo in different lighting, ASET, video). Even if everyone does not agree about the interpretation of such photos, it would be useful for comparison/education purposes to have them included.

 

[TakingthePlunge]

Crushed Ice as a look is completly subjective. People like it or they dont.

Beyond that if you are in the market for crushed ice it extends to finding a stone with sufficient light return. Light return can be compared an analyzed with tools like the aset.

 

[Rockdiamond]

First- I am facilitating EVERY different way to look at these stones.
Although I feel ASET is not giving us relevant info in this circumstance, others who do find value in it are welcome to interpret the images however they want.
I have provided the scans, and will continue to do so for any other stones up for discussion.

Takingtheplunge- as I've said, I believe that we should limit our discussion to physical reality- but I am interested in your perception of the radiant we have used in this discussion- and what info about light return you have garnered from the aset.

I will say again clearly- I don't feel "light return" as it's measured, accurately indicates what my eyes sees in many different lighting environments. That is to say, light return, as we see it measured on aset may not be a viable way to "grade" the cut of a crushed ice stones.
Clearly, some crushed ice stones exemplify the look better than others.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Here's my suggestion for moving this discussion forward- let's talk about the aspects of crushed ice that are visible to the eye- and if they are positive or negative- or taste based.
If we stray off course to debate reflectors, it takes our eye off the ball.

RD,
I wrote two posts which are crucial to any discussion where observations are made based on the interpretation of photographs.

Once again I will ask you the areas I circled in neon green what is the diamond doing in this area?
What is the diamond doing in the areas the black arrows are pointing to?

If you ignore questions you aren't leading a discussion just preaching your opinion.

Also I felt it important to point out unless you wear a black hood and hold the diamonds very close to your face there is no way your interpretation of the photographs matches what you see with your own eyes. Do you wear a dark hood when you view diamonds regularly?

 

[Rockdiamond]

ccl- it's pretty clear that whatever I say, you'll somehow call me "disingenuous"- which makes answering your questions of dubious value.
If I say I see something with my eyes, that is what I see.
Regardless of your well established behavior, I will answer your question: I don't really care "what the diamond is doing" when it shows dark areas.
I don;t care if they are caused by my head, a leaky pipe somewhere, or someone obstructing justice.
What difference does it make? If the diamond shows dark areas, it shows dark areas.
If I take a photo that shows a dark area, and it's not there when I look at the stone, I'll say so.
When it comes to representation, it makes no sense to post photos showing dark areas caused by the camera, if the person looking won't see those dark areas.
I also don't feel it makes sense to show a picture of a diamond NOT showing dark areas in a photo that shows them in real life.

The "potential" aspect of this is valid. Sometimes dark areas are eliminated by holding the diamond at an angle- or vice versa. Dark areas that appear when the diamond is tilted.

The simulation of the Daussi allowed a very bright white static area which I can replicate- but not easily.

The arrows in my notated photo show areas of darkness in the Daussi in "normal" viewing environments.
I can easily replicate that when I look at the diamond in person.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Back to the discussion
Is crushed ice bad- and what , exactly, is crushed ice?

Any guesses on which stone is whiter?

Doc- your answers were extremely perceptive ( so were some others who answered)
The Radiant Cut diamond is an H - the round is a D ( both as graded by GIA)

Looking through the pavilion the difference in shade is easy to see.
But the face up position shows a very different story in these photos- which are indeed a "potential" way these diamond look in person.

 

[Imdanny]

Crushed Ice as a look is completly subjective. People like it or they dont.

I do, especially yellow ones.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

ccl- it's pretty clear that whatever I say, you'll somehow call me "disingenuous"- which makes answering your questions of dubious value.

Try it anyway. You will gain credibility if you do it in an accurate and precise manner.

 

[Doc_1]

Doc- your answers were extremely perceptive ( so were some others who answered)
The Radiant Cut diamond is an H - the round is a D ( both as graded by GIA)

Thank you RD.

And thank you Jonathan from Good Old Gold, it was one of the many things i learned from his videos, here is to look at the side view against a white back ground to see the tint. Not ideal white back ground in the posted pics above but it was fair since both stones are exposed to the same lighting conditions.

And yes RD is credible enough for me to trust his eyes.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry,

Can you tell us what the second B/W picture is simulating? Where is the light source / where is the obstruction? I ask becuse the carre is clearly going to reflect back whatever is in the red angle range so I assume the B/W shot places an obstruction somewhere in the lighting for it to darken.

RD this is a valid point, and by understanding it, you and CCL will loose a point of arguement, which will benefit us all. It might even save a TeraByte of data

I have modelled a similar carre square diamond in the same lighting as the example (except DiamCalc has got better light modelling over time). And I included a model of the office lighting used.

You can see that there are dark zones where there are no lights - so the diamond has the potential to show light from many areas - as shown by IS and ASET, but because of the square design - there are huge dead areas in the stone, and that is why Sergey develloped a concept called ETAS.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here is the ETAS - effective total angular size - that shows where the lights must be inorder for the stones facets to "see" a light and return it to the face up position.

 

[Rockdiamond]

The aset/light combo arrived this afternoon.
I will admit, it's a lot of fun, and very cool.
Easy to use.
Really smart piece of engineering.
Here's my first attempts -using the stones under discussion.





For the purposes of this conversation, why is it important to know where the light is coming from?

 

[stone-cold11]

For the purposes of this conversation, why is it important to know where the light is coming from?

Light source is usually high up in the sky, ceiling, these are also usually stronger, higher intensity, represented as red in the ASET. Reflected lights are lower level, usually lower intensity than the light source, represented as green in the ASET.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I get that part Stone
What I'm asking is really simple.
If we're discussing the merits of a particular style of cutting ( in this case, "Crushed ice")- what difference does it make where the light is coming from.

The only answer I can think of would be to figure out in which type of lighting this diamond might look good.
The problem is that the assumption of light placement and intensity- no matter how accurate the measure, won't represent many other types of potential the diamond has.
Green might be good.

If a well cut Crushed ice Cushion Modified Brilliant looks better in direct sunlight, compared to a well cut round brilliant, is it a better cut?

 

[clgwli]

Just when I thought I was caught up, Gary has to post more. So I'll hush and re-read before commenting.

David I do have a fun question. Do you have a nice bright yellow stone or maybe brown that you can take an ASET photo of? I've only seen IS images of colored stones from all I can remember and I am just curious to see.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The aset/light combo arrived this afternoon.
I will admit, it's a lot of fun, and very cool.
Easy to use.
Really smart piece of engineering.
Here's my first attempts -using the stones under discussion.





For the purposes of this conversation, why is it important to know where the light is coming from?

Most people on this panel prefer the background to be white RD.
Which set up is it? Can you photograph it please?

 

[Doc_1]

That ASET is very important and shocking too . too much green in a brilliant stone , I am revisiting what i thought i knew. By saying that am not saying i am throwing ASET out of the window, but rather i am not going to weigh in much on it!

 

[stone-cold11]

That ASET is very important and shocking too . too much green in a brilliant stone , I am revisiting what i thought i knew. By saying that am not saying i am throwing ASET out of the window, but rather i am not going to weigh in much on it!

That is actually expected, given how well it perform in the image RD took. The camera is too near, blocking out most of the light from the red zone of the ASET, making the RB look dark, while the radiant is still gathering light from the green zone.

 

[Rockdiamond]

aset unit


images in the white dock'
Radiant



Daussi- since there are other shallow cushions that perform in a similar manner from other cutters, let's just call this style shallow cushion

 

[Doc_1]

That ASET is very important and shocking too . too much green in a brilliant stone , I am revisiting what i thought i knew. By saying that am not saying i am throwing ASET out of the window, but rather i am not going to weigh in much on it!

That is actually expected, given how well it perform in the image RD took. The camera is too near, blocking out most of the light from the red zone of the ASET, making the RB look dark, while the radiant is still gathering light from the green zone.

I was referring to the video he posted on the same radiant and the simulation Garry posted on the specs, no camera blocking the light, no black hood reflecting on the diamond , he went all the way to a low dark corner and that thing picked the light like a magnet, however in a stronger lighting it was like fireworks and yet it is a darn green on the ASET, while the other one mostly pink....!

 

[Doc_1]

aset unit


images in the white dock'
Radiant



Daussi- since there are other shallow cushions that perform in a similar manner from other cutters, let's just call this style shallow cushion

To my mind and my eyes you scored a point RD ...and a huge one!
The white in the second stone is no brainer a leak....but how green can be so alive in the first one is amazing!

 

[Rockdiamond]

I think this thread has been amazing- very illuminating.
My perspective on aset has changed.
The photos are not all that difficult to take. I don't know that I'd include them in listings, but I'd certainly be able to provide them- and it's not as big a deal as I thought.

Getting this aset light will also allow me to lay another, long standing claim to rest.
"Backlighting"

Here's what it actually looks like

 

[Doc_1]

I think this thread has been amazing- very illuminating.
My perspective on aset has changed.
The photos are not all that difficult to take. I don't know that I'd include them in listings, but I'd certainly be able to provide them- and it's not as big a deal as I thought.

Getting this aset light will also allow me to lay another, long standing claim to rest.
"Backlighting"

Here's what it actually looks like

Is it a fancy black diamond?............LOL

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

That ASET is very important and shocking too . too much green in a brilliant stone , I am revisiting what i thought i knew. By saying that am not saying i am throwing ASET out of the window, but rather i am not going to weigh in much on it!

That is actually expected, given how well it perform in the image RD took. The camera is too near, blocking out most of the light from the red zone of the ASET, making the RB look dark, while the radiant is still gathering light from the green zone.

Correct

I was referring to the video he posted on the same radiant and the simulation Garry posted on the specs, no camera blocking the light, no black hood reflecting on the diamond , he went all the way to a low dark corner and that thing picked the light like a magnet, however in a stronger lighting it was like fireworks and yet it is a darn green on the ASET, while the other one mostly pink....!

This is why comparisons - SIDE by SIDE comparisons are so important Doc. if you open the video of all 4 stones and stop them at any position you will see the RBC is bright across a much greater area of the stone. The radiant has pinfire that flashes in specs. it looks impressive when it is very large - but go across the room and compare each video when the flashes are more life size - they are then tiny tiny sparkles - some will be so small you may not see them - this is real life.

Can somoene please fnd the video example with 9 stones that was run as a poll about 1 year ago? There was a pinfire crushed ice cushion in that demo video.

 

[Karl_K]

That ASET is very important and shocking too . too much green in a brilliant stone , I am revisiting what i thought i knew. By saying that am not saying i am throwing ASET out of the window, but rather i am not going to weigh in much on it!

Your sitting in the middle of your couch on both ends are a 150W end table reading lamp and looking at your diamond 6 inches from your eye.
You just duplicated those pictures.
How often do you sit that way and look at diamonds?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Garry- mine was a side by side comparison.

 

[Doc_1]

That ASET is very important and shocking too . too much green in a brilliant stone , I am revisiting what i thought i knew. By saying that am not saying i am throwing ASET out of the window, but rather i am not going to weigh in much on it!

That is actually expected, given how well it perform in the image RD took. The camera is too near, blocking out most of the light from the red zone of the ASET, making the RB look dark, while the radiant is still gathering light from the green zone.

Correct

I was referring to the video he posted on the same radiant and the simulation Garry posted on the specs, no camera blocking the light, no black hood reflecting on the diamond , he went all the way to a low dark corner and that thing picked the light like a magnet, however in a stronger lighting it was like fireworks and yet it is a darn green on the ASET, while the other one mostly pink....!

This is why comparisons - SIDE by SIDE comparisons are so important Doc. if you open the video of all 4 stones and stop them at any position you will see the RBC is bright across a much greater area of the stone. The radiant has pinfire that flashes in specs. it looks impressive when it is very large - but go across the room and compare each video when the flashes are more life size - they are then tiny tiny sparkles - some will be so small you may not see them - this is real life.

Can somoene please fnd the video example with 9 stones that was run as a poll about 1 year ago? There was a pinfire crushed ice cushion in that demo video.

The video RD posted did not have the Round diamond in it so i do not know what are you referring to, he had in it the two cushion in question and he had them in different lighting, and took both of them to the dark corner of his office.

I have a simple question though to you Garry:
Do you find the radiant has a great performance in real life looking at both your simulated video, and RD's real video, while it has all that darn green and not much of pink on ASET?