Danish Embassy in Lebanon Burned

[rainbowtrout]

Also, ABGF, I forgot something---


The population of Jews in the territory had in fact been growing slowly since before WWI--with Theodore Herzel and the suggestion that the Jews move to Uganda, of all places. Of course he eventually found that this wasnt going to work for the people he was trying to convince. A thing many do not know about Herzl is that he only arrived at this plan after a plot to convert all the Jews in Vienna to Christianity....he wanted to meet with the Pope and everything. So the amount of "western" Jews had been growing for about 50 ys. This coincided with the rise in anti-Semitism in Viennese politics at the turn of the century, which never really went away until after WWII.


Another little known fact I have learned is that the acculturated Sephardim in the territory did NOT welcome the Holocaust refugees with open arms at all. they were in fact quite cruel to them. This has always depressed me...I can refer you to literature on it if you are curious.

 

[rainbowtrout]

http://www.slate.com/id/2135661/fr/rss/



interesting article with links to others on the bottom.

 

[perry]

As several have said to understand the issues you need to understand the history as well.

Here is some information from an Article in the Christian Science Monitor (link provided below)


Such views concern Rabiah Ahmed, spokeswoman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington.

"We are concerned that people are not responding the way the prophet Muhammed would want," says Ms. Ahmed. "He was the kind of person who would turn the other cheek if someone slapped him. He preached love and tolerance."

According to Islamic tradition, pictures of Muhammad are generally considered sacrilegious. But Jonathan Bloom, a historian of Islamic art at Boston College, says it wasn''t always so. "There were times when images of Muhammad were not forbidden," he says. "In Iran in the 14th century and during the time of the Ottoman Empire, manuscripts often contained illustrations of him." The modern prohibition, he says, probably derive from the strict teachings of Wahabi Islam.

www.csmonitor.com/2006/0209/p02s01-ussc.html


I will also admit that what are now considered "cherished" christian customs by many can also be shown to have not existed many hundreds of years ago.


Are these people truely honoring Muhammad as Muhammed would have desired to be honored.

What amazes me in general is that the "key" religious leaders of many of the faiths: Buddah, Muhammed, Jesus were not violent people - and worked to avoid violance as a way of life - and preached peacefull resolution of issues ==> and then the most bloody conflicts in the world are then faught by people claiming to be fighting for them...

As I said in my initial post on this subject. What has happened is an over-reaction. In addition, most muslims probably would have passed it by as junk from people who are vulgar - but "leaders" are pushing the issue to invite violence.

So what is the root of Islam - how was it originally taught and understood. The same can be asked of all of the other major religions. Is that what is being practiced today. Why is it that in many cases that the three major religious groups in the middle east (Jewdahism, Christianinty, Islam) got along relatively peacfully for hundreds if not thousands of years - but now are at each others throats...

Something to think about.

Perry

Perry

 

[colormyworld]

I wonder how many of the rioters kids are running around with images of bin laden on thier t-shirts.

 

[rainbowtrout]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/09/international/middleeast/09cartoon.html?ex=1297141200&en=ab6eabaaf6fd940b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

another good article


Perry: the article from slate I put up discusses that as well. it isn''t just an ancient thing, apparently...it is BAD depictions or depicitions that show the entire face or figure that are considered harmful. I.e., you can''t draw a direct, full representation.

colormyworld: yes, I have to say I wonder that too, along with how many american kids think we should nuke the mideast...

 

[AGBF]

Date: 2/8/2006 11:09:29 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
The population of Jews in the territory had in fact been growing slowly since before WWI--with Theodore Herzel and the suggestion that the Jews move to Uganda, of all places. Of course he eventually found that this wasnt going to work for the people he was trying to convince. A thing many do not know about Herzl is that he only arrived at this plan after a plot to convert all the Jews in Vienna to Christianity....he wanted to meet with the Pope and everything. So the amount of ''western'' Jews had been growing for about 50 ys. This coincided with the rise in anti-Semitism in Viennese politics at the turn of the century, which never really went away until after WWII.

Yes, I had forgotten about Uganda. History can be a source of amusement as well as of horror!


Another little known fact I have learned is that the acculturated Sephardim in the territory did NOT welcome the Holocaust refugees with open arms at all. they were in fact quite cruel to them. This has always depressed me...I can refer you to literature on it if you are curious.

I have probably read about it and forgotten it. I studied history so very long ago, that I have probably forgotten 98% of what I once knew! My husband''s sister went there (Israel) at around age 17, right after the war, as did her soon-to-be husband. Her present "boyfriend" (in his 70''s) also did. Straight from a Nazi concentration camp where he had, as a teenager, been dunked in a frozen river as part of an "experiment". My husband''s family lived through all of that. And, in his extended family, are Jews from Iraq and Morocco and other Arab countries who had never been to Europe.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/8/2006 11:10:53 PM
Author: colormyworld
I wonder how many of the rioters kids are running around with images of bin laden on thier t-shirts.

That the reporter handed out right before taking the picture.

 

[colormyworld]

Storm please tell me what is relevent about your post above. Other than the rerporter still has his head.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/12/2006 1:28:31 PM
Author: colormyworld
Storm please tell me what is relevent about your post above. Other than the rerporter still has his head.

just as relative as you wondering how many had the t-shirts that were made right here in the usa for the reporter that handed them out and then snapped the pictures.

 

[colormyworld]

I guess you are not getting my point about the rioting going on about "graven " images. The shirts were not forced on the reciepents. The bottom line seems to be that those rioting are looking for any excuse to draw attention. What do you think thier goal is?

 

[perry]

How many tshirts were made in america, or handed out by a reporter.

Almost certianly - NONE.

I doubt there is a single clothing plant left in the US making tshirts.

Most tshirt printing is also overseas now.

My guess is that if people were running arround in bin laden t-shirts - that they got them locally. Who knows were the shirts were made, but probably printed in the mideast or far east.

As far as reporters handing out shirts... I can't think of a better way to get beaten or killed in that part of the world (the peopel do not overtly trust the western press anyway - that would confirm it). I doubt that you can produce any evidence to back up such an allegation.

Perry

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/12/2006 10:08:33 PM
Author: perry
How many tshirts were made in america, or handed out by a reporter.


Almost certianly - NONE.


I doubt there is a single clothing plant left in the US making tshirts.


Most tshirt printing is also overseas now.


My guess is that if people were running arround in bin laden t-shirts - that they got them locally. Who knows were the shirts were made, but probably printed in the mideast or far east.


Perry

wrong, a lot of small run printed t-shirts are printed in the US by small firms.
If you want less than 5000 shirts the big boys wont talk to you.
Most corperate shirts are done by mom and pop local outfits.

 

[colormyworld]

Made in the USA, Bin Laden Inc. ??????

 

[perry]

Storm Says:

wrong, a lot of small run printed t-shirts are printed in the US by small firms.
If you want less than 5000 shirts the big boys wont talk to you.
Most corperate shirts are done by mom and pop local outfits.

I disagree with you on this one: 10 years ago I'd say it was true. However, no longer. I have a person who used to run the local silkprinting shop working with me..., and I know of other mom and pop shops that have closed in other towns. If your order gets into several hundred shirts you are now in the realm of the big boys... espeicially if you do not need it in several days. A local shop may take the order - but all they do is contract it out to the big boys because they cannot compete (and act only as an order point) - and the big boys only work with a few - putting the rest out of business.

However, I do think it is nice that your very rebuttal argument proved my point above. If the shirts are printed locally - then the printed tshirts in the middle east were not printed in the US. We also know that the shirts themselves are not made in America.

So if the US did not make the shirts - and the US did not print the shirts... then what is the basis for Storms implication that the he US made those shirts? Colormyworld only speculated that people were in Bin Laden tshirts - he never speculated on the source of those shirts.


Perry

 

[strmrdr]

A friend of mine runs a silk screening/ embroidery business so I have a pretty good idea of how they operate.

In Iraq anyway the reporters were handing out the shirts then snapping the pictures.
If you notice the shirts in a lot of shots were brand new the people wearing them were muddy and dirty but the shirts were nice and clean.
Get the picture?

 

[colormyworld]

I don't see what difference it makes were they got the shirts. If depicting People or animals is such a taboo subject as to cause rioting. Why not an out cry because of IDOL worship with bin ladens picture on the shirts. It seems as a lot of the people over there think of him as holier than thou.
I never said anything about were the shirts were made.
Any body care for a all expence paid quail hunt with the V.P. ????

 

[Rank Amateur]

How about a free car ride with Ted Kennedy?

 

[colormyworld]

Naw I don't drink
Wait a minute maybe. Are we taking the car or their car?

 

[AGBF]

Date: 2/6/2006 3:49:03 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 2/6/2006 2:38:04 PM

Author: strmrdr

As far as I heard and I could be wrong no one was hurt so it is kind of fitting.

Well, now you have heard of someone being hurt. Four people are dead in Afghanistan, and more are hurt. If the violence continues, I assume more people will also soon be hurt and dead.

Back to the original subject (which wasn't T-shirts), the violence has escalated enormously over the caricatures (or, at least, set off by the caricatures if not actually caused by them).

"Dozens of charred, smoldering bodies littered the streets of this bustling commercial center on Thursday after three days of rioting in which Christian mobs wielding machetes, clubs and knives set upon their Muslim neighbors.

Rioters have killed scores of people here, mostly Muslims, after burning their homes, businesses and mosques in the worst violence yet linked to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad first published in a Danish newspaper. The violence in Nigeria began with attacks on Christians in the northern part of the country last week by Muslims infuriated over the cartoons.

Now old ethnic and political tensions between Muslims in the north and Christians here in the south have been reignited, with at least 33 bodies still visible on the streets of Onitsha on Thursday and a local organization that has tried to collect the scattered corpses reporting that it has already picked up 80 others.

The cycle of tit-for-tat sectarian violence has pushed the death toll in the last week well beyond 100, making Nigeria the hardest-hit country so far in the caricature controversy."

article

 

[AGBF]

Date: 2/24/2006 5:06:15 AM
Author: AGBF

Back to the original subject (which wasn't T-shirts), the violence has escalated enormously over the caricatures (or, at least, set off by the caricatures if not actually caused by them).

Iraq has absolutely exploded into murderous revenge between Shiites and Sunnis in the past week, too.

article

 

[movie zombie]

there are those that would argue that iraq has been in a civil war for some time now....but it has now bubbled to the surface to the point where even US media can no longer ignore it. and its not like the administration wasn''t warned that this would be a consequence of our invasion and subsequent inability to rebuild infrastructure, etc. this is more than a ''religious'' civil war: it is their war for who will be in power. it is born of frustration under saddam and under US domination. we have not brought democracy to iraq, we have brought an opportunity for it and nothing more. even bush says that democracy will not look like US democracy: it may be surprising how much unlike our concept it will turn out to be. and the administration may be surprised to find out that iraqis don''t view privatization of services, gas, etc. to be democracy. what has been set in motion will now run its course as is the way of all things.

movie zombie