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De Beers undercuts the man made diamond price

evergreen said:
I don't know what your criteria for super ideal are, but August Vintage is doing precision cutting on MMDs...
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Sorry, I should have been more specific: like an RBC with proven ideal light performance - like ASET.

Are the stones you listed graded for cut, and if so, by whom? Do they have ASET pictures?
 
kmoro said:
Sorry, I should have been more specific: like an RBC with proven ideal light performance - like ASET.

Are the stones you listed graded for cut, and if so, by whom? Do they have ASET pictures?
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Well, his AVRs and AVCs have ideal light performance as far as old-cuts are concerned. And he'll send you ASETs for any stone you're interested in to prove it.

As for the MRBs, they have GCAL reports with H&A images. After looking at a few of the H&A images myself, I'll say that, while they may not be absolutely perfect Super Duper Ideal precise, they're pretty darn good. Like, I-highly-doubt-most-people-could-tell-the-difference good.;)2
 
TreeScientist said:
Well, his AVRs and AVCs have ideal light performance as far as old-cuts are concerned. And he'll send you ASETs for any stone you're interested in to prove it.

As for the MRBs, they have GCAL reports with H&A images. After looking at a few of the H&A images myself, I'll say that, while they may not be absolutely perfect Super Duper Ideal precise, they're pretty darn good. Like, I-highly-doubt-most-people-could-tell-the-difference good.;)2
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Fair enough. The diamonds posted earlier are gorgeous ... and expensive.

I guess I am posting with lightbox in mind. $800 per carat, and setting is required. They don’t mention cut quality ... well, if they do, I didn’t find it.
Since lightbox, I’d have a hard time paying thousands for even a precision cut MMD.
Still ... those pictures make me drool, lol.
 
kmoro said:
Fair enough. The diamonds posted earlier are gorgeous ... and expensive.

I guess I am posting with lightbox in mind. $800 per carat, and setting is required. They don’t mention cut quality ... well, if they do, I didn’t find it.
Since lightbox, I’d have a hard time paying thousands for even a precision cut MMD.
Still ... those pictures make me drool, lol.
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Well of course you're not going to be getting SuperIdeal cutting at $800/carat. At least not right now. But maybe in the future as the automated laser cutting systems become more advanced and cutting costs go down. I'm sure a few years down the road we'll be seeing some H&A-cut stones at the $1000/carat price point. Just gotta wait it out. :)

A few members posted IdealScope images of the MRBs and princess cuts from LightBox over on the MMD forum. While they definitely weren't of the same caliper as the offerings from AV, they actually weren't half bad... I too prefer natural to MMDs, especially for engagement jewelry, but I must say that the LightBox diamonds are a steal for what they're offering. And, also like you, there's no way in hell I would pay more than about $1000/carat for an MMD at this point even for an H&A-cut stone.
 
kmoro said:
Fair enough. The diamonds posted earlier are gorgeous ... and expensive.

I guess I am posting with lightbox in mind. $800 per carat, and setting is required. They don’t mention cut quality ... well, if they do, I didn’t find it.
Since lightbox, I’d have a hard time paying thousands for even a precision cut MMD.
Still ... those pictures make me drool, lol.
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The Lightbox/De Beers marketing is clearly doing to you what it's intended to do ;-) :lol:

Ultimately we are in a freemarket economy and individual consumers can take-up any offerings they wish or, of course, they can leave them on the shelf. In a shifting market, it is only natural to be hesitant, but Rhino is being as consistent in his approach as always - delivering a range of options at a range of pricepoints, with a focus on cut quality and the desire to push the market forward :)
 
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With the advancement and increasing accessibility of precision laser cutting technology, will all newly cut MMD/diamonds end up being done so with ideal proportions? Or will the desire to retain weight always win out do you think? As/if the price per carat decreases that significantly you would think they’d be less interested in poorly cut heavier stones and favour ideally cut stones. It would also make all the new stones cut like this very generic?
 
Lovesparklesparle said:
With the advancement and increasing accessibility of precision laser cutting technology, will all newly cut MMD/diamonds end up being done so with ideal proportions? Or will the desire to retain weight always win out do you think? As/if the price per carat decreases that significantly you would think they’d be less interested in poorly cut heavier stones and favour ideally cut stones. It would also make all the new stones cut like this very generic?
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If my understanding of the price of MMD rough is correct, there should be no need to retain as much weight as possible :)
 
vintageloves said:
August Vintage's lab stones are often IGI graded. When you factor in that this "G" is probably a GIA J, you're paying mined diamond prices for a lab stone: https://www.augustvintageinc.net/co...ct-g-vs1-laboratory-grown-diamond-lg_10537402

I love the idea of lab diamonds, but when I did the comparison, I couldn't justify it.
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Is there any (empirical) evidence that IGI is three/four grades lower than GIA?

IGI are one of the more common grading labs used over here in the UK, from what I've seen in shop windows, and without a range of side-by-side comparisons with either GIA/AGS Master stones or a selection of equivalent-size GIA/AGS stones found in the market, claims of differences remain unsubstantiated and could damage vendor reputations.

I'm sure that the only reason Rhino and other sellers aren't offering GIA/AGS-graded MMDs is because both companies either won't grade them or offer only minimal information, AIUI - be that because of 'protectionism' of Mined stones (the refusal to grade MMDs inferring they are not the same as Mined diamonds) or some other reason.

From what I've seen of the grading reports that come with Rhino's stones, they seem to vary from an equivalent range of information as a GIA report, through to perhaps even more than one of the top-level AGS reports (Gold or Platinum??), so I am impressed that the other labs are taking the opportunity to attempt to lead the MMD grading market from the front.

Perhaps one of the MMD vendors (Rhino or A.N.Other) could undertake a comparison exercise, either to satisfy themselves and be able to confidently state any differences (if any), or to present the results in an empirical format for a wider audience?
 
OoohShiny said:
Is there any (empirical) evidence that IGI is three/four grades lower than GIA?

IGI are one of the more common grading labs used over here in the UK, from what I've seen in shop windows, and without a range of side-by-side comparisons with either GIA/AGS Master stones or a selection of equivalent-size GIA/AGS stones found in the market, claims of differences remain unsubstantiated and could damage vendor reputations.

I'm sure that the only reason Rhino and other sellers aren't offering GIA/AGS-graded MMDs is because both companies either won't grade them or offer only minimal information, AIUI - be that because of 'protectionism' of Mined stones (the refusal to grade MMDs inferring they are not the same as Mined diamonds) or some other reason.

From what I've seen of the grading reports that come with Rhino's stones, they seem to vary from an equivalent range of information as a GIA report, through to perhaps even more than one of the top-level AGS reports (Gold or Platinum??), so I am impressed that the other labs are taking the opportunity to attempt to lead the MMD grading market from the front.

Perhaps one of the MMD vendors (Rhino or A.N.Other) could undertake a comparison exercise, either to satisfy themselves and be able to confidently state any differences (if any), or to present the results in an empirical format for a wider audience?
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IGI certs are widely considered not to be worth the paper they are printed on on this forum. I don't trust their evaluations, and my eyes don't trust that the stone I linked is anything close to a "G."

I have a big problem with the bolded. Vendor reputations are the concern and the responsibility of the vendor. We should feel free to speak our minds and share our opinions without having to worry about protecting a vendor's business. I have taken a look at all of August Vintage's lab stones over the weeks, as I'm interested in the concept, and I have concluded that they are overgraded, overpriced, and many are poorly cut. I have thought this for weeks but have felt afraid to say anything because I don't feel like I can have a negative opinion about a PS vendor here.
 
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There are different igi reports and labs.
Common in the US is igi usa valuation reports that are graded mounted and have a value and are absolutely useless and imho fraud.
Igi international graded loose are a little better but below gia/ags but not a total fraud.
 
vintageloves said:
felt afraid to say anything because I don't feel like I can have a negative opinion about a PS vendor here.
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You shouldn't feel that way. It is true that many of the PSers are overly loyal and protective of some of the vendors here, but I only see that as a lemming mentality. Speak your mind - that only helps the PS community.
 
Karl_K said:
There are different igi reports and labs.
Common in the US is igi usa valuation reports that are graded mounted and have a value and are absolutely useless and imho fraud.
Igi international graded loose are a little better but below gia/ags but not a total fraud.
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Yup, at one point, I almost got fooled into thinking that IGI cert stones were graded similar in line with AGS/GIA, but NOPE they're completely off and there's a reason some of the studs being offered by some of the popular Internet vendors seem better value (VS1/F, in actuality SI1/H). Assume at least several grades lower, at least in the US.
 
blueMA said:
Yup, at one point, I almost got fooled into thinking that IGI cert stones were graded similar in line with AGS/GIA, but NOPE they're completely off and there's a reason some of the studs being offered by some of the popular Internet vendors seem better value (VS1/F, in actuality SI1/H). Assume at least several grades lower, at least in the US.
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The problem is you never know how far off.
GIA needs to get off their high horse and offer a Man Made Diamond Grading Report with the same quality and information as their regular reports.
Put "Man Made Diamond Grading Report " in big letters across the top.
Until such a time they are stuck with second tier labs.
 
I appreciate it can be hard to speak openly on forums when there are favoured vendors and/or forum sponsors, either/both of whom may be active members.

I am a big advocate of plain speaking, though, but I also feel that claims need backup evidence, as otherwise they are at risk of being viewed as conjecture.

I thought it was EGL that was seen as distinctly 'off' - or is that just the non-USA labs? - and that IGI was seen as at least reasonable in the UK? but I may be remembering things incorrectly, so I do not mind being corrected if that is the case.

My suggestion of a side-by-side comparison is the sort of thing I think would be very useful in helping to determine just how 'off' a given sample is, in an attempt to provide an empirical evidence base to refer to, but I don't know if it's ever been done.

Mind you, if as Karl says they are all over the shop and totally inconsistent, a sample comparison could/would be completely pointless in terms of trying to determine the number of grades they are always likely to be 'out', but could be a good illustration of inconsistency if nothing else.
 
vintageloves said:
I have taken a look at all of August Vintage's lab stones over the weeks, as I'm interested in the concept, and I have concluded that they are overgraded, overpriced, and many are poorly cut. I have thought this for weeks but have felt afraid to say anything because I don't feel like I can have a negative opinion about a PS vendor here.
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I have to say, reluctantly, that I agree. Although I can't speak to issues of color, as I have not compared IGI stones directly to GIA stones myself, I can say that I've overall been disappointed with the cut, clarity, and price of the August Vintage lab diamond offerings so far, with the exception of the ones he has had cut as AVRs and AVCs. The AVRs and AVCs have been their usual spectacular cut, but the price has not been as low as I was hoping, and the other cuts have frankly just not been very good. I love Rhino, though, and adore both his mined diamond and moissy offerings, and additionally was one of the most vocal people here and on Instagram urging him to go the route of lab stones, so this has been difficult to speak up about.
 
OoohShiny said:
I appreciate it can be hard to speak openly on forums when there are favoured vendors and/or forum sponsors, either/both of whom may be active members.

I am a big advocate of plain speaking, though, but I also feel that claims need backup evidence, as otherwise they are at risk of being viewed as conjecture.

I thought it was EGL that was seen as distinctly 'off' - or is that just the non-USA labs? - and that IGI was seen as at least reasonable in the UK? but I may be remembering things incorrectly, so I do not mind being corrected if that is the case.

My suggestion of a side-by-side comparison is the sort of thing I think would be very useful in helping to determine just how 'off' a given sample is, in an attempt to provide an empirical evidence base to refer to, but I don't know if it's ever been done.

Mind you, if as Karl says they are all over the shop and totally inconsistent, a sample comparison could/would be completely pointless in terms of trying to determine the number of grades they are always likely to be 'out', but could be a good illustration of inconsistency if nothing else.
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I think any EGL lab is regarded on market by educated consumers as being “off”. Though if you have to choose between them, the US lab is better regarded. As such, the only thing on an EGL report that I’d have a degree of confidence in is measurements/proportions.

I don’t trust any IGI valuation cum report that is on a mounted stone (as is a lot of the IGI items that I’ve seen here in Australia). If it is an IGI graded loose stone, I will tend to trust measurements/proportions but discount colour and clarity gradings by 1-2 levels.

But I know certain stores favour certain labs (e.g. Salera’s tends to have a lot of EGL USA stones along with “Rand” diamonds). So if I ever go looking at them I tend to be more suspicious.
 
In a way I like De Beers approach with Light Box - not offering a grade.
1. grading is expensive - costs more than cutting and polishing
2. there is no rarity factor, and in time manufacturers will only be making high colour high clarity.
3. in the case of larger stones, they are made with CVD and depth is the constraint - so the problem of mainly deep and dull diamonds will go not be the issue it is with mined diamonds
 
Karl_K said:
The problem is you never know how far off.
GIA needs to get off their high horse and offer a Man Made Diamond Grading Report with the same quality and information as their regular reports.
Put "Man Made Diamond Grading Report " in big letters across the top.
Until such a time they are stuck with second tier labs.
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Karl, I don't think GIA is on a high horse. I think their position is an indication that they know their constituency, they can predict the future of LG diamonds, and they want to protect their brand. They do not want to support a product that competes with what their huge client base is selling by helping LG producers market their diamonds on a somewhat contrived apples-to-apples basis (discount to natural per 4cs).

A GIA report might help a consumer today who wants to be on the bleeding edge of this new market, but as LG supply increases and prices drop, a grading report will have increasingly less relevancy.

I agree with @Garry H (Cut Nut) that the Debeers approach with Light Box makes the most sense. They have the vision to put themselves at a future point and let the rest of the market catch up to them. In the process they help guide the evolution of the market along a rational pathway.
 
evergreen said:
I don't know what your criteria for super ideal are, but August Vintage is doing precision cutting on MMDs...
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Wow - just seems SO expensive for MMD, imo.
 
Texas Leaguer said:
A GIA report might help a consumer today
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That makes a consumer advocate position and cements my feelings on the issue.
De beers is no longer big enough to face antitrust charges but GIA is enough of the market to face antitrust lawsuits.
 
kinda controversial, but do you guys think the price of mined diamonds will start going down? in my mind it shouldn’t because there is only a finite number of mined stones able to be produced, but being able to grow >1c stones that are almost indistinguishable from a mined stone makes me wonder what people will do

i have nothing against lab grown diamonds, i just preferred to get a mined stone for her. she didn’t care the source but it was more for myself.
 
Karl_K said:
That makes a consumer advocate position and cements my feelings on the issue.
De beers is no longer big enough to face antitrust charges but GIA is enough of the market to face antitrust lawsuits.
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Many companies are capable of doing a lot of different things, and are often tempted to put too many irons in the fire rather than stay focused on their core business and customer base. I know we are! But I can't see why ANY business would have a legal obligation to provide a service on a new product line, even if by choosing not to provide that service another business may be disadvantaged.
 
lascaux said:
do you guys think the price of mined diamonds will start going down?
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No, I really don't think so. Not any time soon, at least. It's true that natural pearls lost their value once cultured pearls took over (and pearls lost their cache) but that took an entire lifetime. I wouldn't make a decision today about a mined diamond based on fears of the value falling. Too much is unknown.
 
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