codex57
Brilliant_Rock
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Do Appraisers ever say "Not a good stone"
- Thread starter kevinraja
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windowshopper
Ideal_Rock
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JohnQuixote
Ideal_Rock
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Kevin,
The reason your appraisal was positive is because of the immense time you spent educating yourself, assessing opinions and exploring options. You did much “appraising” yourself before you even purchased. It does not surprise me that the pro didn’t have a negative report – you were discriminating, focused on quality and made good decisions. He confirmed them.
For you and others who do much research, a pro assessment is insurance, to be 100% secure with your decisions and the way the item has been represented to you. I still think it was a wise investment, given the amount spent on the diamond.
I was a proponent of your appraisal in this thread. You mentioned that you were a skeptic and a perfectionist and I told you that perhaps an appraisal would help you “to be 100% secure.” I’d say the good news is that you can now be 100% secure.
For someone who does not find PriceScope or another broad interactive source of education/feedback there is a greater chance the diamond he/she selects will hold more “new” and possibly negative information.
The reason your appraisal was positive is because of the immense time you spent educating yourself, assessing opinions and exploring options. You did much “appraising” yourself before you even purchased. It does not surprise me that the pro didn’t have a negative report – you were discriminating, focused on quality and made good decisions. He confirmed them.
For you and others who do much research, a pro assessment is insurance, to be 100% secure with your decisions and the way the item has been represented to you. I still think it was a wise investment, given the amount spent on the diamond.
I was a proponent of your appraisal in this thread. You mentioned that you were a skeptic and a perfectionist and I told you that perhaps an appraisal would help you “to be 100% secure.” I’d say the good news is that you can now be 100% secure.
For someone who does not find PriceScope or another broad interactive source of education/feedback there is a greater chance the diamond he/she selects will hold more “new” and possibly negative information.
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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Looks like we''ve got another vote for the PATSY test!
Sorry, Raja, not much time to write, right now. As you know, like John, only privately, I made the recommendation I did. I did suggest that you try to wangle two bites at the apple, and get access to their new optics program...any success at that...and maybe that''s irrelevant.
The only thing I can offer (I just had a side discussion to see if I could come up with another reason to employee an appraiser, and failed at that) is that -- rather than taking a top down approach, for which I understand your frustration...from the bottom up point of view....a) you''d need to have the diamond appraised so you can get insurance, and that''s a reasonable reason to use an appraiser, b) you want to make sure, given $1000s of dollars spent, that someone better than you can double check that a really big accident hadn''t happened somehow, and you''re not getting glass, and c) as has been documented by the appraisers here pretty well...given the basic situation that is possible...that you lose your diamond (I did!), you can get a replacement of equal value. A good description will help you with that. And...somewhat uniquely...Dave will, I believe, give you a cut categorization, and I think that''s worth some of the differential.
Still, I can talk out of both sides of my mouth at the same time pretty good. And...not for just bottom up, but it''s out of top down aspirations that I''m sympathetic of your concerns.
Best of wishes on the relationship, that this is all supposed to be about!
Sorry, Raja, not much time to write, right now. As you know, like John, only privately, I made the recommendation I did. I did suggest that you try to wangle two bites at the apple, and get access to their new optics program...any success at that...and maybe that''s irrelevant.
The only thing I can offer (I just had a side discussion to see if I could come up with another reason to employee an appraiser, and failed at that) is that -- rather than taking a top down approach, for which I understand your frustration...from the bottom up point of view....a) you''d need to have the diamond appraised so you can get insurance, and that''s a reasonable reason to use an appraiser, b) you want to make sure, given $1000s of dollars spent, that someone better than you can double check that a really big accident hadn''t happened somehow, and you''re not getting glass, and c) as has been documented by the appraisers here pretty well...given the basic situation that is possible...that you lose your diamond (I did!), you can get a replacement of equal value. A good description will help you with that. And...somewhat uniquely...Dave will, I believe, give you a cut categorization, and I think that''s worth some of the differential.
Still, I can talk out of both sides of my mouth at the same time pretty good. And...not for just bottom up, but it''s out of top down aspirations that I''m sympathetic of your concerns.
Best of wishes on the relationship, that this is all supposed to be about!
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pqcollectibles
Ideal_Rock
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Part of the reason we rarely see a post about a negative appraisal or rejection of a stone is because of the Vendors. PS Vendors carefully screen the diamonds they purchase to stock in house. Some won''t even involve themselves in "drop ship" because they want to evaluate every diamond they sell. Most of the diamonds sold by PS Vendors that are posted on the Forums have been professionally screened, evaluated, and hand selected prior to offering to consumers.
What Neil wrote about disclosing the truth is the key.
As to coverring valid opinion and facts just simply isn''t acceptable...
As part of the service, an appraiser should find out what the client''s needs are. Not everyone wants the best... so you need to discuss with the appraiser the facts that are important for you to know, and what the results of his testing are.
Based on what the consumer tells me, I can advise him of the facts he wants or needs to know to make an informed decision about his potential purchase.
Spending the time and effort in interviews with the client is critical to doing the job right. What''s the right amount of time? I had a customer that I spent about 70 hours with. Not all at once, but over several weeks before and after he picked a stone to buy. Believe me I am not complaining ...it''s just part of the "badge" we wear.
Those who criticize our services, and think they can do it themselves are kidding themselves. You overlook one important detail and the whole "picture" changes. If it were so easy then folks like Neil, David, Richard, amd others wouldn''t bother to spend the enormous time, money, investment in equipment. We could still hold ourselves as experts after reading information on the internet or else where. We bother to do this because we all want to do the best job we can for consumers.
Rockdoc
As to coverring valid opinion and facts just simply isn''t acceptable...
As part of the service, an appraiser should find out what the client''s needs are. Not everyone wants the best... so you need to discuss with the appraiser the facts that are important for you to know, and what the results of his testing are.
Based on what the consumer tells me, I can advise him of the facts he wants or needs to know to make an informed decision about his potential purchase.
Spending the time and effort in interviews with the client is critical to doing the job right. What''s the right amount of time? I had a customer that I spent about 70 hours with. Not all at once, but over several weeks before and after he picked a stone to buy. Believe me I am not complaining ...it''s just part of the "badge" we wear.
Those who criticize our services, and think they can do it themselves are kidding themselves. You overlook one important detail and the whole "picture" changes. If it were so easy then folks like Neil, David, Richard, amd others wouldn''t bother to spend the enormous time, money, investment in equipment. We could still hold ourselves as experts after reading information on the internet or else where. We bother to do this because we all want to do the best job we can for consumers.
Rockdoc
Gosh, I just couldn''t help but reply to this one. I usually just read to see what people are saying. My husband and I have an independent appraisal business. He''s the appraiser. He told me a long time ago that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and even the worst items might be beautiful to someone else and that anything with an emotional attachment, whatever the value, is priceless to the owner.
In the context of your question, appraisers don''t have opinions because they don''t know the situation. In the case of the insurance appraisal, the item is usually purchased and it''s a done deal. What if a newly married woman came in with her engagement ring to finally have it appraised after the wedding and the appraiser said "Wow! this is a piece of crap!" That doesn''t do any good for anybody. Appraisals are usually an evaluation to access a value for insurance purposes. It''s not the time or place for commentary unless the owner asks for it.
In our business, we offer more than just insurance appraisals. We offer COA''s and will also, for a very minimal price, give you our opinion on an item to help you determine if made a good or bad buying decision. Now, in this case, my husband is very honest and straight forward. We don''t bad mouth any retailer, my husband is very tactful. But for the minimal amount we charge, we hope we can help the customer save a lot of money in the long run. We make it our policy to be unbiased when talking about where to buy or where to get something repaired.
Also, on occasion we have someone call us to check the authenticity of an item and if it''s counterfeit we don''t charge anything at all. It''s our policy to be ethical and honest.
I hope that helps you.
In the context of your question, appraisers don''t have opinions because they don''t know the situation. In the case of the insurance appraisal, the item is usually purchased and it''s a done deal. What if a newly married woman came in with her engagement ring to finally have it appraised after the wedding and the appraiser said "Wow! this is a piece of crap!" That doesn''t do any good for anybody. Appraisals are usually an evaluation to access a value for insurance purposes. It''s not the time or place for commentary unless the owner asks for it.
In our business, we offer more than just insurance appraisals. We offer COA''s and will also, for a very minimal price, give you our opinion on an item to help you determine if made a good or bad buying decision. Now, in this case, my husband is very honest and straight forward. We don''t bad mouth any retailer, my husband is very tactful. But for the minimal amount we charge, we hope we can help the customer save a lot of money in the long run. We make it our policy to be unbiased when talking about where to buy or where to get something repaired.
Also, on occasion we have someone call us to check the authenticity of an item and if it''s counterfeit we don''t charge anything at all. It''s our policy to be ethical and honest.
I hope that helps you.
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nicknomoDate: 1/14/2005 11:125 AM
Author: nicknomo
I think the best was to go into an appraiser is by keeping him blind. Let him tell you what clarity, color, etc it is to verify you have the right stone.
Out of good business practice they will never tell you your stone stinks. Think about it... if you like the stone, and you get it appraised and the guy tells you its a p.o.s., you are going to be offended! I''m sure a lot of business is through word of mouth.
The thing that you should do to see if your ring is worth it, ask for a good selling price for the diamond, without telling him what you bought it for. This should give you an idea as to whether you overpaid.
Just make sure you go to an appraiser who knows what they are doing.. and don''t expect negative feedback..
the thing is, with today''s internet purchase the appraiser is most likely the first to see the stone ,so if its a POS i would like to know so it can be return to the vendor without even shipping to the consumer.
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NeilDate: 1/14/2005 10:27 PM
Author: denverappraiser
The first obligation of the appraiser is to report the truth. If a client comes in with an I2-K diamond that’s cut like a turnip, I tell them what they have. I value it in the desired market against other similar stones. If they tell me that the dealer reported that it displays h&a, or that someone else graded it as an SI1-H, I will say that I disagree with these statements and I’ll put it in writing. This is all part of reporting the truth. I’ll even discuss with them the expected prices for a stone that better meets the desired description if they wish.
In my opinion, telling them that the above stone is ‘bad’ is not part of reporting the truth, it’s filtering with the appraisers taste. There IS a market for such stones and there are customers who are happy to buy them because they like the prices. Some might even like the look. These clients are not necessarily wrong simply because their stone is unpopular or because you or I would not choose to buy own one like it.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
if the stone was cut like a turnip i think the appraiser should tell customer is a "poorly" cut stone .now if they still decide to buy it...more power to him/her.at least they got the truth out of the appraiser.
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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To reprise the line from Saturday Night Live...
Neil, you ignorant slut....
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Actually, I do think you guys have a terribly tough job, you appraisers, you. Particularly for those of us on Pricescope, who maybe have a buying style whereby we're trying to catch a deal, indeed, and maybe it's not a certified AGS000 H&A...and we want to know how we did. (edited to add...Classically, this is what the Pricescope board is about...allowing the use of "tool(s) to avoid less performing AGS-ideal diamonds and find well performing diamonds outside of AGS-ideal range and therefore safe your money.") There's speculation enough on this board as to what excellent and ideal is, such that when we purchase a diamond that doesn't meet everyone's version of ideal, we may really be looking to you for the perspective that will satisfy. Look at poor Raja, this thread's author...he's been through the mill, and 48 hours haven't passed yet.
Raja and I have different agendas. For my purposes, I'm happy to try to separate the wheat from the chaff, and frankly, I am doing this even though I am risking taking a position not based on personal experience (as I am going to plug the several of you who are authors on this board, even though I have not used you personally). Still, since Raja is not obviously a happy camper, maybe I need to understand the elements of that better, first.
Nevertheless, contrary to what you say, Neill, I don't think most appraisers bring to the table what you say. I don't think all the regular appraisers on this board do, either. And, although I don't especially want to invade the space of these nice new people who have joined this board and this discussion...to the extent that the crown & pavillion measuring technologies are thought to be particularly helpful, I would say odds are against gdustin having them, too.
Having checked with both Sarin and Ogi personally, I know that no appraiser in the Washington DC area subscribes to or uses those technologies. I used Martin Fuller's office, a very highly regarded appraiser in the DC area, mentioned -- usually with satisfaction -- on this board frequently. They readily report using, when asked, the Diamond Proportion Analyzer, from GIA. And in my case, this was not brought out, (that gizmo) at all. And who's to say...perhaps such equipment isn't even needed (and indeed, my ring -- by our mutual agreement, was already mounted)? Readilly Garry Holloway will tell you, as he just did in recent threads, that when up close and personal with a diamond, he will ignore such data (nevermind that the HCA he created is based on such data alone). Likewise, the appraiser I worked with in Mr. Fuller's office did say right off that my diamond was "nearly ideal," and she probably saw it for what it was. Now, what it was she saw...could that be explicated?
Without having looked for it, I got an FIC. To get such a diamond, by definition, it could only be considered classically "near ideal," since to have those FIC proportions, it would have to be out of what AGS would typically classify as ideal. So...there is some possible controversy to the look and the view that is even desired. And...many on this board do specifically look for this kind of diamond (Dancing Fire, aka vtigger posts lately frequently for it --oops, she's right above this post!). And, having then been on this board for a few weeks, I hadn't even been introduced to what an FIC was! I merely suspected going in that it may not prove out to be the ideal cut diamond I had originally sought (rating AGS2 on the Ogi DCD had), but perhaps I was hoping I could get some additional confirmation of the special cut characteristics of the diamond I bought, even still. Instead, I asked them to bring up Pricescope.com, bring up the cut adviser, enter the cut data, produce the chart, and attach it to the appraisal produced -- which otherwise, Neil, you ignorant slut...did not mention cut characteristics at all.
I had sought a good deal in advance of using the appraiser's office, thought I got it, and still do, but just as Raja has some questions remaining about the goodness of the choice, that may not have been explored, likewise...at the point of the appraisal, it seems that despite the high emotionality of the event...for those for whom the appraisal meeting also becomes the last chance to dump the item and select another instead...perhaps there could be some way to distinguish the opportunity. In my previous post, I suggested a pre-appraisal questionairre to explore such questions. RocDoc, you alude to some similar ideas.
Anyway...not sure about all this. My agenda and point, I suppose, is that...not everyone seems to have a great deal to say about cut, and yet, it is about cut that many people here are willing to say a lot. If the discussion can be appropriately engaged in the appraisal meeting, maybe these issues would diminish. My hunch is that classically trained GIA appraisers are more tuned into inclusions and color, that this fourth C of cut is in process, and that for those of us who are particularly interested in it, the run of the mill appraiser -- including most of those who are on the list here at Pricescope as Independent Appraisers -- will not fit the bill.
However, with all of that said, how to explain how poor Raja, who has just used the offices of the appraiser who wrote the charts that Neil explains all good appraiser uses...how to explain his less than ideal affect. A puzzlement.
Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side?
Neil, you ignorant slut....
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Actually, I do think you guys have a terribly tough job, you appraisers, you. Particularly for those of us on Pricescope, who maybe have a buying style whereby we're trying to catch a deal, indeed, and maybe it's not a certified AGS000 H&A...and we want to know how we did. (edited to add...Classically, this is what the Pricescope board is about...allowing the use of "tool(s) to avoid less performing AGS-ideal diamonds and find well performing diamonds outside of AGS-ideal range and therefore safe your money.") There's speculation enough on this board as to what excellent and ideal is, such that when we purchase a diamond that doesn't meet everyone's version of ideal, we may really be looking to you for the perspective that will satisfy. Look at poor Raja, this thread's author...he's been through the mill, and 48 hours haven't passed yet.
Raja and I have different agendas. For my purposes, I'm happy to try to separate the wheat from the chaff, and frankly, I am doing this even though I am risking taking a position not based on personal experience (as I am going to plug the several of you who are authors on this board, even though I have not used you personally). Still, since Raja is not obviously a happy camper, maybe I need to understand the elements of that better, first.
Nevertheless, contrary to what you say, Neill, I don't think most appraisers bring to the table what you say. I don't think all the regular appraisers on this board do, either. And, although I don't especially want to invade the space of these nice new people who have joined this board and this discussion...to the extent that the crown & pavillion measuring technologies are thought to be particularly helpful, I would say odds are against gdustin having them, too.
Having checked with both Sarin and Ogi personally, I know that no appraiser in the Washington DC area subscribes to or uses those technologies. I used Martin Fuller's office, a very highly regarded appraiser in the DC area, mentioned -- usually with satisfaction -- on this board frequently. They readily report using, when asked, the Diamond Proportion Analyzer, from GIA. And in my case, this was not brought out, (that gizmo) at all. And who's to say...perhaps such equipment isn't even needed (and indeed, my ring -- by our mutual agreement, was already mounted)? Readilly Garry Holloway will tell you, as he just did in recent threads, that when up close and personal with a diamond, he will ignore such data (nevermind that the HCA he created is based on such data alone). Likewise, the appraiser I worked with in Mr. Fuller's office did say right off that my diamond was "nearly ideal," and she probably saw it for what it was. Now, what it was she saw...could that be explicated?
Without having looked for it, I got an FIC. To get such a diamond, by definition, it could only be considered classically "near ideal," since to have those FIC proportions, it would have to be out of what AGS would typically classify as ideal. So...there is some possible controversy to the look and the view that is even desired. And...many on this board do specifically look for this kind of diamond (Dancing Fire, aka vtigger posts lately frequently for it --oops, she's right above this post!). And, having then been on this board for a few weeks, I hadn't even been introduced to what an FIC was! I merely suspected going in that it may not prove out to be the ideal cut diamond I had originally sought (rating AGS2 on the Ogi DCD had), but perhaps I was hoping I could get some additional confirmation of the special cut characteristics of the diamond I bought, even still. Instead, I asked them to bring up Pricescope.com, bring up the cut adviser, enter the cut data, produce the chart, and attach it to the appraisal produced -- which otherwise, Neil, you ignorant slut...did not mention cut characteristics at all.
I had sought a good deal in advance of using the appraiser's office, thought I got it, and still do, but just as Raja has some questions remaining about the goodness of the choice, that may not have been explored, likewise...at the point of the appraisal, it seems that despite the high emotionality of the event...for those for whom the appraisal meeting also becomes the last chance to dump the item and select another instead...perhaps there could be some way to distinguish the opportunity. In my previous post, I suggested a pre-appraisal questionairre to explore such questions. RocDoc, you alude to some similar ideas.
Anyway...not sure about all this. My agenda and point, I suppose, is that...not everyone seems to have a great deal to say about cut, and yet, it is about cut that many people here are willing to say a lot. If the discussion can be appropriately engaged in the appraisal meeting, maybe these issues would diminish. My hunch is that classically trained GIA appraisers are more tuned into inclusions and color, that this fourth C of cut is in process, and that for those of us who are particularly interested in it, the run of the mill appraiser -- including most of those who are on the list here at Pricescope as Independent Appraisers -- will not fit the bill.
However, with all of that said, how to explain how poor Raja, who has just used the offices of the appraiser who wrote the charts that Neil explains all good appraiser uses...how to explain his less than ideal affect. A puzzlement.
Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side?
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pqDate: 1/14/2005 3:568 PM
Author: pqcollectibles
Part of the reason we rarely see a post about a negative appraisal or rejection of a stone is because of the Vendors. PS Vendors carefully screen the diamonds they purchase to stock in house. Some won''t even involve themselves in ''drop ship'' because they want to evaluate every diamond they sell. Most of the diamonds sold by PS Vendors that are posted on the Forums have been professionally screened, evaluated, and hand selected prior to offering to consumers.
true, ps vendors sells beautiful stones.now what if i send them a "K MART blue light special" are they gonna tell me its a beautiful stone or a POS ?
Date: 1/14/2005 784 PM
Author: gdustin
Gosh, I just couldn''t help but reply to this one. I usually just read to see what people are saying. My husband and I have an independent appraisal business. He''s the appraiser. He told me a long time ago that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and even the worst items might be beautiful to someone else and that anything with an emotional attachment, whatever the value, is priceless to the owner.
In the context of your question, appraisers don''t have opinions because they don''t know the situation. In the case of the insurance appraisal, the item is usually purchased and it''s a done deal. What if a newly married woman came in with her engagement ring to finally have it appraised after the wedding and the appraiser said ''Wow! this is a piece of crap!'' That doesn''t do any good for anybody. Appraisals are usually an evaluation to access a value for insurance purposes. It''s not the time or place for commentary unless the owner asks for it.
In our business, we offer more than just insurance appraisals. We offer COA''s and will also, for a very minimal price, give you our opinion on an item to help you determine if made a good or bad buying decision. Now, in this case, my husband is very honest and straight forward. We don''t bad mouth any retailer, my husband is very tactful. But for the minimal amount we charge, we hope we can help the customer save a lot of money in the long run. We make it our policy to be unbiased when talking about where to buy or where to get something repaired.
Also, on occasion we have someone call us to check the authenticity of an item and if it''s counterfeit we don''t charge anything at all. It''s our policy to be ethical and honest.
I hope that helps you.
Gina
I took a look at your site. It appears that you''re real estate appraisers, but also do personal property. You mention insurance appraisals and do residential and commercial reports.
While it appears you do a great volume of business, and many types of apprasal reports, there is nothing listing the educational, equpment or experience of the appraisers.
Do you have a gem lab? Do you employ credentialed appraisers in the various specialties you mention?
I am not writing this to attack you, but my curiosity of having such a complete site without the credentials of the individuals (if there are more than just your husband) got the better of me.
Rockdoc
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back when i was doing coin shows,i have guys come up to my table show me and ask my opinion on coin(s) these are certified ,if i think it was a POS (for the grade) i''ll give them my honest opinion .one case ;this guy was about to paid $25K + for this coin, i told him it was a POS and to pass. i didn''t hurt his feeling because he haven''t pay for it yet.
i don''t know maybe is different in the diamond appraisel business
i don''t know maybe is different in the diamond appraisel business
Maxine
Brilliant_Rock
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As usual, the "C" word is so important.....COMMUNICATION....If you want the appraisor to tell you yay or nay...if that is the purpose of the visit, then tell him/her that.....
If it''s to assign a value on something already purchased or given to you, then that''s a different story.........
Then you are more likely to feel like you "got what you paid for!!"
If it''s to assign a value on something already purchased or given to you, then that''s a different story.........
Then you are more likely to feel like you "got what you paid for!!"
windowshopper
Ideal_Rock
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I DID THAT and that is not what I got.............................. again-I repeat from before--I think many people (probably alot of PS' ers) want a consultative appraisal and thats not want the appraisers want to do......................
If appraisers want to maintain their integrity and value as a business they may need to evolve.............................I for one would be unlikely to use one next time I purchase a stone
Window Shopper
Sorry you didn''t get what you expected..
How much did the appraiser charge you, and how? By the hour, by carat weight, flat fee ? Etc.
How much time did he spend with you?
If you asked him direct questions, did he not answer you, or give a misleading answer?
Is this person involved with any appraisal organization? You might have some recourse bu contacting the group or groups he belongs to.
Rockdoc
Well I think you misunderstand me. He is going to tell you a range of what you should have paid for it, what its specs are (verification) and that''s really all he probably will do. He can''t come out and say that this is a piece of crap. Why? There are several reasons
1) Offending customers
2)He is not there to tell you what he thinks of the diamond. Maybe he thinks SI2 diamonds are "crap". This doesnt matter. Even with the cut, the look is subjective. He can give you the depth percentage, and tell you if its "deep" or "shallow", but thats really about it. Which brings me to my third point..
3) His job is only to identify the diamond specifications and give you a good idea of what you should have paid for it... Anything beyond that is subjective opinion.
He isn''t supposed to tell you what you should be shopping for. If you don''t know an M color I3 looks bad, then that isn''t his problem. I think what everyone expects is more along the lines of buying advice... "Oh you should search for a better cut" or "Oh a less included diamond would look nicer".
Let''s say you bring an appraiser an I color SI2 stone, average cut that you bought for a good price. Is he supposed to say, "you should look at ideal diamonds instead."? No.
Maybe certain aspects of cut could use some professional opinion... but I''m not sure an appraiser should or will normally give you that. However, this usually requires at least some tools not commonly found in your average appraiser. Of course some appraisers found here on pricescope seem to have I-scopes, brilliance scopes,etc. Even so, I wouldn''t expect much commentary from them. Maybe a grade like good cut or excellent cut or poor cut.. something along those lines.
Because of the reasons I listed, they won''t and shouldn''t go beyond this. Of course, I''m sure if people would do a little explaining and specifically ask them the tough questions, the appraiser might open up and spew out his opinion... I just wouldnt expect this to be automatic and voluntary.
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This is very similar to the questions asked in the "Appraisers telling you what you want to hear?" post from last month.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/appraisers-telling-you-what-you-want-to-hear.22747/
In the end it really depends on what you are asking the appraiser to do for you - up front; and is the appraiser willing to do it?
Perry
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/appraisers-telling-you-what-you-want-to-hear.22747/
In the end it really depends on what you are asking the appraiser to do for you - up front; and is the appraiser willing to do it?
Perry
Maxine
Brilliant_Rock
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I agree that the appraisor can''t actually say "yay or nay," good or bad (he would then also be in awkward position w/vendors)......Therefore it''s up to the consumer to know what to ask....Tell him what parameters you are seeking in a stone eg. "No flor.," less than 62% depth, and ask him if these things are absent or present....TELL him/her that you might be considering returning a stone if certain qualities aren''t present......
If he/she thinks you are committed to the stone he/she won''t say it''s terrible and make you feel bad...but if YOU have doubts, then express that....
If he/she thinks you are committed to the stone he/she won''t say it''s terrible and make you feel bad...but if YOU have doubts, then express that....
It is the appraiser''s job to appraise. It is the appraiser''s job to point out the qualities that a stone pocesses. It is not the appraiser''s job to make value judgements based on their own personal preferences on those qualities. What part of this so hard to understand?
Let''s just use one example. It''s no secret that I wouldn''t buy a stone w/o blue fluor. Some in the industry *really* have strong feelings about this kind of purchase. It''s the appraiser''s job to point out the fluor, explain the property, make comment on how the industry may feel about this property. It''s not his job to say - don''t buy it because of his feeling about it. He should already know that I am fully aware of the property & he should have already determined what my desires/parameters are.
People buy things for all different reasons. I think all these over the top settings are ridiculously overpriced & over done. If I was an appraiser, who would I be to comment on someone''s taste/choice - provided the consumer is fully aware of what *they* want? That is a value judgement made on personal preferences. Should the appraiser say "You should buy something less expensive and more tasteful"?
Opinions should only be given when asked specifically in a context of "here''s what I want - does this fit the bill at an acceptable price" If the person wants a near colorless eye clean stone and comes in the door with an M/I2, then the appaiser can quanify - by looking at a chart - that the M color is not near colorless & an I2 will have inclusions. If the price was in line w/ the specs, the appraiser could gently say that this is stone doesn''t fit the definition of what you are looking at; but, is this acceptable to you?
I''m really not sure what some are looking for. What specific questions went unanswered? One can''t be unpleased with something without giving specifics. No one is a mind reader.
Let''s just use one example. It''s no secret that I wouldn''t buy a stone w/o blue fluor. Some in the industry *really* have strong feelings about this kind of purchase. It''s the appraiser''s job to point out the fluor, explain the property, make comment on how the industry may feel about this property. It''s not his job to say - don''t buy it because of his feeling about it. He should already know that I am fully aware of the property & he should have already determined what my desires/parameters are.
People buy things for all different reasons. I think all these over the top settings are ridiculously overpriced & over done. If I was an appraiser, who would I be to comment on someone''s taste/choice - provided the consumer is fully aware of what *they* want? That is a value judgement made on personal preferences. Should the appraiser say "You should buy something less expensive and more tasteful"?
Opinions should only be given when asked specifically in a context of "here''s what I want - does this fit the bill at an acceptable price" If the person wants a near colorless eye clean stone and comes in the door with an M/I2, then the appaiser can quanify - by looking at a chart - that the M color is not near colorless & an I2 will have inclusions. If the price was in line w/ the specs, the appraiser could gently say that this is stone doesn''t fit the definition of what you are looking at; but, is this acceptable to you?
I''m really not sure what some are looking for. What specific questions went unanswered? One can''t be unpleased with something without giving specifics. No one is a mind reader.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,159
Ira,
I presume your comment about my Saturday nights is merely an obscure cultural reference and not an attempt at poor manners or at an insult. For the record, I’m a highly educated slut.
Also, just to be clear, I said most good appraisers use Dave’s excellent system for fancys, not all. There are other choices. Personally, I like it and I appreciate Dave having made it publicly available for just such purposes. It does not apply in all situations. I agree with your point that many, actually most people who present themselves as appraisers do not meet my standard of who is capable but at the same time, Dave is not particularly unique in offering good service to his clients. There are others including several who are regular participants in this forum. I've never met most of the appraisers on the list but if you have specific issues concerning any of them I'm sure Leonid would be interested in your concerns.
GIA trains gemologists, not appraisers. Their success at producing skilled gemologists is decent but it’s far from 100%. Some of their graduates do indeed go on to become capable appraisers. ‘Classically trained GIA appraisers’ is not really an applicable term although there is a fair amount of confusion about this issue, even within the trade.
I think we basically agree. You apparently didn’t get the service that you should have. The problem you had is that what you wanted from your appraiser didn’t match what the appraiser delivered. As a 3rd party it’s not really possible to tell if this is because you didn’t ask, because they didn’t know, because they didn’t have appropriate tools, because they didn’t want to discuss it with you or any of a variety of other possible problems. If you told the appraiser what you wanted to know at the beginning of your session and they agreed to accept the assignment with that understanding then they should have proceeded accordingly. This should be the very first question in the appraisal session and the answer can be a deal killer. Most will ask it at the time of setting the appointment. If they were either unable or unwilling to answer your questions, they should have told you this before they took your money and before beginning the assignment.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
Hi Neil
Hey Neil
Great answer
I have mentioned a zillion times on various forums that gemology and appraising are two different items.
But consumer persist in wrapping the two into one ball.
Appraisals are valuation driven, while gemological consultation is what the stone''s characteritics and quality is.
It is common for gemologists to THINK they are appraisers, but I haven''t met one yet that is valuation competent.
Most commonly my services are two part... the gemological information and advice when asked, and the valuation part which has to do with money.
Maybe I am and have been wording this in a way that consumers here don''t understand it....but it is good to hear you repeat it.
Rockdoc
Hey Neil
Great answer
I have mentioned a zillion times on various forums that gemology and appraising are two different items.
But consumer persist in wrapping the two into one ball.
Appraisals are valuation driven, while gemological consultation is what the stone''s characteritics and quality is.
It is common for gemologists to THINK they are appraisers, but I haven''t met one yet that is valuation competent.
Most commonly my services are two part... the gemological information and advice when asked, and the valuation part which has to do with money.
Maybe I am and have been wording this in a way that consumers here don''t understand it....but it is good to hear you repeat it.
Rockdoc
pqcollectibles
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2003
- Messages
- 3,441
That''s a subjective question, and an Appraiser performs an objective service. You can''t expect the appaiser to blurt out whether he/she personally likes the diamond. That''s not their job. Their job is to inform you about the quality of the diamond you present and it''s value relative to the price you paid. If a client asks flat out, "Is this a dog??!!", then the appraiser could, as Gina said, tell the client nicely what he/she thinks.Date: 1/14/2005 8:52:53 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
pqDate: 1/14/2005 3:568 PM
Author: pqcollectibles
Part of the reason we rarely see a post about a negative appraisal or rejection of a stone is because of the Vendors. PS Vendors carefully screen the diamonds they purchase to stock in house. Some won''t even involve themselves in ''drop ship'' because they want to evaluate every diamond they sell. Most of the diamonds sold by PS Vendors that are posted on the Forums have been professionally screened, evaluated, and hand selected prior to offering to consumers.
true, ps vendors sells beautiful stones.now what if i send them a ''K MART blue light special'' are they gonna tell me its a beautiful stone or a POS ?
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2004
- Messages
- 5,962
Neil,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Regarding my addressing... yes just in good fun, and that the reference is obscure is just a sign of my old age, I'm afraid.
Just a few points here, responding to yours:
1) Regarding who an appraiser is, and how they are trained...no I hadn't made a significant study of that, presumed most came up through training descending from GIA's programs, and didn't seek to parse that too much. Rather than laying down the text here you've provided yourself, Neil, about the typical training an appraiser received, you might want to review in more detail yourself how you present that, now located in the FAQs section of this list-serve, and see if you'd like to change it any.
2) Perhaps I'm just a tough ass shopper. It's difficult to please me. So I'll take the blame for that. Still, looked at dispassionately, which is my intention, as much as I can...I don't think the appraiser who provided me service acted improperly. Also, however, neither was I improperly prepared when I went to see him. And likewise, as I responded to the example I provide in your item in the FAQs section, a person who buys a home is really shuffeled typically from one station to the next when they're buying that home, sign this form, meet with that inspector...and I'd say the majority of shoppers who you'll see as a result of their readership here, will have gotten the idea to see you because of their readership here. And so, from that point of view, yes, you're cueing them up about what kinds of questions to ask as you do in the item in the FAQs section is quite a good thing
3) Your comment above, in response to mine, was:
"Every capable appraiser I know does this (provides a cut categorization) as a standard part of their service. Most use Dave's excellent system for categorizing fancies and AGS's system for describing rounds along with Sarin or Megascope data and IS images."
Independent of my specific experience, which is the focus of your last reply, your original point was to focus on what most appraisers do. I still think you are wrong about what most appraisers do...and have documented where, at least locally, no appraiser has the sort of equipment you describe, such that Sarin or Megascope is used, or in my case, IS images produced or offered.
I think, as I said originally, but for a smaller group, to include many active on this forum, critical analysis of cut may not be part of the focus of the session or review of the appraiser. And although I suspect this will indeed have the opportunity to change significantly when GIA does change the output on its reports, if I am correct, I see no reason -- particularly from the point of view of your own enlightened self-interest, that you would choose to wave the banner of "appraisership," standing up for the profession in the way that you have. To my view, it is not accurate, and clearly does not serve your own purposes in the way that it could.
4) As to the potential of the appraisal interview...I can tell you that on several recent posts here, where people have written in with excitement about their purchase, or their potential purchase, at what could be represented as "discounted" costs, my motivation to respond to them was significantly effected by the knowledge of whether they were deciding whether to buy or not, or had bought already, and wanted feedback after the fact. I don't know if that sort of information would matter to you -- it mattered to me -- and specifically seeking to collect it, I would think, could make a difference in the language and message you use for the shopper you see.
5) Everything comes out in the wash. Probably most people come out happy, seeing you and your colleagues. A few of us are grouches. I and Raja have noted something like that we would have enjoyed more animated discussion about cut during the sessions we had. Probably in any profession, mostly you'll have happy customers, and a few complainers. So, nothing's new here. Nevertheless, all of us try to enlighten, make the process better. That's my intention here, certainly. I hope my thoughts are also seen in that perspective.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Regarding my addressing... yes just in good fun, and that the reference is obscure is just a sign of my old age, I'm afraid.
Just a few points here, responding to yours:
1) Regarding who an appraiser is, and how they are trained...no I hadn't made a significant study of that, presumed most came up through training descending from GIA's programs, and didn't seek to parse that too much. Rather than laying down the text here you've provided yourself, Neil, about the typical training an appraiser received, you might want to review in more detail yourself how you present that, now located in the FAQs section of this list-serve, and see if you'd like to change it any.
2) Perhaps I'm just a tough ass shopper. It's difficult to please me. So I'll take the blame for that. Still, looked at dispassionately, which is my intention, as much as I can...I don't think the appraiser who provided me service acted improperly. Also, however, neither was I improperly prepared when I went to see him. And likewise, as I responded to the example I provide in your item in the FAQs section, a person who buys a home is really shuffeled typically from one station to the next when they're buying that home, sign this form, meet with that inspector...and I'd say the majority of shoppers who you'll see as a result of their readership here, will have gotten the idea to see you because of their readership here. And so, from that point of view, yes, you're cueing them up about what kinds of questions to ask as you do in the item in the FAQs section is quite a good thing
3) Your comment above, in response to mine, was:
"Every capable appraiser I know does this (provides a cut categorization) as a standard part of their service. Most use Dave's excellent system for categorizing fancies and AGS's system for describing rounds along with Sarin or Megascope data and IS images."
Independent of my specific experience, which is the focus of your last reply, your original point was to focus on what most appraisers do. I still think you are wrong about what most appraisers do...and have documented where, at least locally, no appraiser has the sort of equipment you describe, such that Sarin or Megascope is used, or in my case, IS images produced or offered.
I think, as I said originally, but for a smaller group, to include many active on this forum, critical analysis of cut may not be part of the focus of the session or review of the appraiser. And although I suspect this will indeed have the opportunity to change significantly when GIA does change the output on its reports, if I am correct, I see no reason -- particularly from the point of view of your own enlightened self-interest, that you would choose to wave the banner of "appraisership," standing up for the profession in the way that you have. To my view, it is not accurate, and clearly does not serve your own purposes in the way that it could.
4) As to the potential of the appraisal interview...I can tell you that on several recent posts here, where people have written in with excitement about their purchase, or their potential purchase, at what could be represented as "discounted" costs, my motivation to respond to them was significantly effected by the knowledge of whether they were deciding whether to buy or not, or had bought already, and wanted feedback after the fact. I don't know if that sort of information would matter to you -- it mattered to me -- and specifically seeking to collect it, I would think, could make a difference in the language and message you use for the shopper you see.
5) Everything comes out in the wash. Probably most people come out happy, seeing you and your colleagues. A few of us are grouches. I and Raja have noted something like that we would have enjoyed more animated discussion about cut during the sessions we had. Probably in any profession, mostly you'll have happy customers, and a few complainers. So, nothing's new here. Nevertheless, all of us try to enlighten, make the process better. That's my intention here, certainly. I hope my thoughts are also seen in that perspective.
Hey Kevin - just wanted to share my experience with you. Several months back pre-pricescope (before I began educating myself on diamonds) my boyfriend and I bought a stone. We took it to one of the most highly respected appraisers listed on this website. He did not tell us point blank that what we bought was a piece of crap but he did tell us that it would in his opinion be a 2b/3a grade. I specifically wanted an "ideal" cut stone and was told that I was buying an ideal cut stone by the jeweler..... anyway, we ended up returning the diamond based on this information. The appraiser essentially provided the information I needed, that it was not in fact an ideal cut stone and explained how he would characterize it. He did this without telling me the stone was lousy (regardless of his opinion). It wasn''t a horrible stone, but it wasn''t what I was looking for.
I think you need to set your expectations with the appraiser as to what you are looking to get out of the appraisal. Also i think a lot of people made very good points as to the fact that your probably did your homework beforehand and therefore there probably were not a lot of bad things to say about your stone.
On another note, I am trying to find a different appraiser for my new stone (the last one we used hasn''t responded to a few emails and phone calls for some reason)... so anyway I contacted another appraiser who seemed annoyed with all my questions. I don''t know if he thought my expectations were ridiculous, or was offended that I was asking questions about his service but I asked if he had any sample appraisals I could see just to have an idea of how much information he provided - he was pretty curt with me and said he did not... so therefore I am looking for somebody else who can provide the amount of information I need.
It doesn''t hurt to shop around I guess until you find someone who can provide the type of service you want.
I think you need to set your expectations with the appraiser as to what you are looking to get out of the appraisal. Also i think a lot of people made very good points as to the fact that your probably did your homework beforehand and therefore there probably were not a lot of bad things to say about your stone.
On another note, I am trying to find a different appraiser for my new stone (the last one we used hasn''t responded to a few emails and phone calls for some reason)... so anyway I contacted another appraiser who seemed annoyed with all my questions. I don''t know if he thought my expectations were ridiculous, or was offended that I was asking questions about his service but I asked if he had any sample appraisals I could see just to have an idea of how much information he provided - he was pretty curt with me and said he did not... so therefore I am looking for somebody else who can provide the amount of information I need.
It doesn''t hurt to shop around I guess until you find someone who can provide the type of service you want.
kevinraja
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2004
- Messages
- 275
I certainly agree with Ira on the issue that "many appraisers don''t have the equipment that they are expected to have." When I called the local appraiser, Martin Fuller, I was told that they don''t provide any IS, or brilliancescope pictures. When they said I can use their IS to look at the stone, I told them that I already have an IS.
I travelled all the way from DC to Philly to meet Micheal Jordan from AGA to get my stone appraised. I thought AGA would have all kind of equipment since they are the ones that set the standard. When I asked Micheal to run a sarin on my stone, he gave me an excuse that their sarin is not working because of some software problem. WHATEVER. When I asked him look at my stone thru an IS and give his opinion, he said he never uses an IS, but his colleagues do. He did give me an IS to look at the stone myself, at which time I mentioned that already own an IS. He never looked at the stone thru the IS. He commented that IS is good, but he doesn''t believe in it.
I travelled all the way from DC to Philly to meet Micheal Jordan from AGA to get my stone appraised. I thought AGA would have all kind of equipment since they are the ones that set the standard. When I asked Micheal to run a sarin on my stone, he gave me an excuse that their sarin is not working because of some software problem. WHATEVER. When I asked him look at my stone thru an IS and give his opinion, he said he never uses an IS, but his colleagues do. He did give me an IS to look at the stone myself, at which time I mentioned that already own an IS. He never looked at the stone thru the IS. He commented that IS is good, but he doesn''t believe in it.
windowshopper
Ideal_Rock
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kevinraja
Shiny_Rock
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windowshopper
Ideal_Rock
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