Do today's men have commitment issues?

[Lady_Disdain]

Whether women or men should propose is a red herring. If the men don't want to get married, they aren't going to propose and they are going to answer no (or "in a little while, honey") to a lady's proposal.

Proposing is, honestly, just a formality in most cases. If the ladies are talking to their SOs about marriage, about engagements and about when these things are going to occur, to the point where they hear "I am not ready yet" as an answer, they have asked their SO to marry them. Pretty words or not, they have proposed and heard their answer.

So true. I suspect even if these women *wanted* to propose, the guy would just say he still wasn't ready yet.

Actually, I would hope they would say so if they don't feel ready. It isn't the proposal that is the problem, it is marriage. And if they aren't mentally ready for marriage, they shouldn't get married, even if their significant other thinks they are.

 

[kenny]

I think I'm more annoyed by their situations than they are, hence why I started the topic to find out if these situations are common.

So, your thread title should have been, "Do today's women have relationship-decision issues?"

 

[GliderPoss]

This is an interesting thread! I think the blame DOES squarely lie on both sides. Woman should be clear & upfront about their expectations of the relationship and men should stop constantly keeping an eye out for "something better"!

I agree with the thoughts on delay - everything is rather delayed now due to college, jobs, travel, housing etc. It seems all ducks must be in a row FIRST before proposing rather than the old fashioned way of starting together with nothing & working your way up from there.

In my limited experience the young men I know of seem to have trouble committing due to the "availability" of women ie. maybe they used to have limited opportunities to meet young suitable women to marry now there is online dating, Tinder etc so now there are literally thousands of women they could date. Each one may be lovely but gosh what if the next one is prettier? Smarter? Richer? Instead of seeing what is right in front of them - a potential loving wife & partner for life, they are constantly seeking the next best thing, almost a fear of settling for less or missing out somehow... And yes dammit they often do get better with age whilst woman apparently do not.

 

[aljdewey]

The concept of having a lot invested or already having invested significantly into a relationship has come up a few times and is offered as a reason why a woman would elect to stay in a relationship that isn't progressing on the timetable she'd like it to.

I'm guessing the thinking is 'well, i've already put 4.5 years into this relationship, and I'd have to begin over."

Do these women want children? If I were in this position and wanted children, I'd worry a whole lot more about how I was going to invest the (dwindling) remaining years of my fertility instead of worrying about time already gone by. They don't even have a firm answer on how much more time they'll have to 'be patient'; what if their guys aren't ready for another 5 years more? Then they've wasted 10 years (instead of 5) waiting for something that may not still happen.

The downstream is even more difficult to envision. What is the prosposal/marriage does finally come ages down the line, and then the couple can't get pregnant - how much resentment do you think that will create? I'd bet a ton.

If kids aren't a factor, then it still comes down to 'do i want to invest time and emotional energy into a relationship that he may feel less seriously about than I do?' For me, that was a no.

 

[aljdewey]

I saw many friends who waited and wanted to be patient and surprised with a proposal (they thought it unladylike to ask) only to get to the point in their relationships where they threatened to leave if they didn't get a ring, and lost their "ladylike" behavior. Some got their ring, and some got dumped. Even those who did get the ring have confided in me that their husbands throw it in their face...that they were forced to marry them.

Ha - what a load of tripe that is. If a man ever tried to tell me I forced him to marry him, I'd laugh in his face. That's just a convenient (but wholly inaccurate) way of shifting the blame to someone else.

No one can make you do anything you don't want to do. If those guys really didn't want to get married, those 'got the rings' girls would have been on the dumped list too.

 

[movie zombie]

.......
No one can make you do anything you don't want to do. If those guys really didn't want to get married, those 'got the rings' girls would have been on the dumped list too.

yep. trying to make the wife feel bad by lowering self-esteem.

 

[aljdewey]

I think it's really interesting that so many believe the reason a man waits to marry is because he's waiting to see if something better comes along. I don't really think that's as prevalent as people think.

I'd speculate it's more about wanting to take full advantage of enjoying a lifestyle with very limited responsibility. Once they marry and have children, they will pass into a lifestyle of incredible responsibility with no way to turn back. Most men know that children will likely happen within a few years (if not sooner) of marriage, so marriage really is the triggering event to choosing a life with exponentially more responsibility.

Children are irrevocable and irreversible, and their need for you as a parent extends well beyond age 18. Once you have children, your life is truly not your own anymore; my dad is 70 and I'm sure he still worries about me. It's a lifelong role, and it's a very rewarding one once you're ready, but I can see wanting to be completely sure you've had your heyday before passing that threshold.

 

[arkieb1]

I doubt the reasons for all men are the same. Some take a longer amount of time to commit because they want to feel financially secure before getting married and starting a family. In some cases it's about the pressure of responsibility and being ready for that more than anything else.

There are serial players out there where the grass is always greener who are comfortable in a relationship but still think there could be something better for them. In this case it's up the the woman in the relationship to determine why the guy won't commit or have the long term plans talk and move on to something better.

Rather than blaming men for commitment issues it would be a wonderful world if everyone could be totally honest so the men say I really don't want to get married up front (instead of stringing anyone along) women can say they do want to get married and have kids at an appropriate point in the relationship (possibly not right at the beginning but after a reasonable amount of time) and if both partners don't want the same things then accept this and move on.

 

[TC1987]

Hi,


I had this conversation with my niece a few years ago. She claims men won't commit, particularly in England where she grew up and had serious relationships. She moved to California and finds the attitude very different here. She likes the men better here.

I don't know where you live. People do seem to wait to marry, but I don't see it as not being able to commit.

Annette

That's interesting. Maybe the lure of an "exotic" mate has something to tip the scales. LOL. I know one divorced local guy who met a Filipino woman online, traveled overseas twice to meet and vacation with her, then brought her to the USA and married her. I also have a co-worker whose 20-something daughter had a great job, was college-educated, debt-free, childfree, and never married, but the local guys are the sleep-around-and-never-marry hicks with kids, debts, a high school education, and a $10/hr laborer job. She met a Brit online, and after a year and a half of "dating" long distance, she moved to the UK and married him.

 

[kenny]

... men should stop constantly keeping an eye out for "something better"!

Only men do that?

I realize PS posters are overwhelming female ... but really ... the misandry here should be called out.

 

[TC1987]

...

Do these women want children? If I were in this position and wanted children, I'd worry a whole lot more about how I was going to invest the (dwindling) remaining years of my fertility instead of worrying about time already gone by. They don't even have a firm answer on how much more time they'll have to 'be patient'; what if their guys aren't ready for another 5 years more? Then they've wasted 10 years (instead of 5) waiting for something that may not still happen.

...

That doesn't stop the women here in the low-income bondocks. They just have a kid whenever they are ready, and then marry the state, i.e. collect welfare benefits, live in government or HUD or Section 8 housing, etc. And probably continue to look for a guy to marry and keep them. haha. It's pretty much a given here than nobody marries. Even the stable couples shack up, have kids, and collect all of the government handouts that they can, without ever marrying.

Forbes did a study last year or so, and determined that the only USA people likely to marry were the college grads who have great careers and financial security. The white working class is gravitating toward single moms and/or shackups.

I don't know what young people are going to do if both the guy and the gal have $30k - $60k or more of college debt, each. And I surely don't know what all of these aspire-to-be-homemaker-instead-of-work young women are going to get except disappointment. Families need 2 great, not just good, incomes. That is, if they are going to be self-sufficient, not welfare recipients.

 

[TC1987]

...
Actually yes, men in general have a "commitment" issue compared to the past with marriage. The biggest reason for it is how the legal system treats them once married and if there is a divorce. Something like 3/4 of all divorces are filed by the woman; and the courts tend to heavily side with the woman's position in divorce. The legal system is not balanced; and marriage is a huge risk for a man that it was not 30 or 40 years ago. This is a common area of discussion among the various men I know; and the most often cited reason that so many men are totally unwilling to ever remarry after divorce.

So add that to all the other issues being discussed. Things have changed a lot in the last 40 years.

How so, Perry? Unless the man marries a homemaker, there's not much worry anymore. In an equitable distribution state, who earned the income or inherited the money or otherwise footed the bill(s) or pumped financial assets into the marriage definitely does factor into the property settlement. Inheritance can be kept totally separate, not joint property. So long as a guy marries a woman with roughly equivalent assets and income, and she stays working and doesn't become a dependent homemaker, there's a pretty good chance of close to a 50/50 settlement. The state I live in requires 10 years min of marriage to be eligible for alimony, and there's no guarantee of alimony, and it usually is only granted for a few years after, not forever. Spousal support while the couple is separated but still not divorced may be pretty much a continual thing, but again, that requires a recipient who is a stay-home non-working or low-paid person. Child support is child support, and a man can get stuck with that married or not.
Moral of the story: Be like all the engineers I know. Marry a good wageearner, don't let her sit at home, and have zero to one or two kids at very most.

I'm female, and I married a man who earned considerably less, and he ran up over $35k in credit card debt. But, I had a prenup, made him pay 50% of house payment and utilities, kept separate credit cards and bank accounts all the way, and used a joint account to pay household expenses and house payments. We had no kids. We divorced after 9 years married. The court stuck him with all the debts that he'd run up in his name. We sold the house and split that 50/50. Easy-peasy, Perry. Had the roles been reversed, there would have been no difference in the property settlement. Men get burned because they allow themselves to be set up for that.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

... men should stop constantly keeping an eye out for "something better"!

Only men do that?

I realize PS posters are overwhelming female ... but really ... the misandry here should be called out.

The women who inspired this thread certainly aren't - even if some, perhaps, should...

Sorry, I couldn't resist. But, yes, there is a fair amount of stereotyping going on. I really, really hate the "all women want to get married and men must be prodded into it" cliche - both sides of it.

 

[Niel]

... men should stop constantly keeping an eye out for "something better"!

Only men do that?

I realize PS posters are overwhelming female ... but really ... the misandry here should be called out.

The women who inspired this thread certainly aren't - even if some, perhaps, should...

Sorry, I couldn't resist. But, yes, there is a fair amount of stereotyping going on. I really, really hate the "all women want to get married and men must be prodded into it" cliche - both sides of it.

+1

I was telling my husband about this thread and he was rage city. Though there's sexism on both side, I agree.

 

[LaraOnline]

... men should stop constantly keeping an eye out for "something better"!

Only men do that?

I realize PS posters are overwhelming female ... but really ... the misandry here should be called out.

The women who inspired this thread certainly aren't - even if some, perhaps, should...

Sorry, I couldn't resist. But, yes, there is a fair amount of stereotyping going on. I really, really hate the "all women want to get married and men must be prodded into it" cliche - both sides of it.

+1

I was telling my husband about this thread and he was rage city. Though there's sexism on both side, I agree.

Poor Mr. Niel! lol
You'll have to console him by reminding him that this thread can really only suggest 'general patterns' across entire countries...so he is not really directly implicated.
My experience of my own husband is NOT of any commitment phobe whatsoever - he sized me up and proposed within a few months - but that doesn't stop me discussing this issue. Because it is an issue.
And general patterns are worth commenting on, even if they fall along gender lines.
For example, off topic but if I brought up the accepted fact that an average of one Australian woman a week is killed as a result of domestic violence, does it make me sexist to mention it?

 

[arkieb1]

I don't think it's fair to bash men or women. There are plenty of predatory women in the world as well (only marrying or trapping guys for what they can get) and no-one has mentioned that. There was one here in Australia in the news 3 nights ago, she managed to con 4 million dollars in funds and cars and houses etc out of 6 men. Proving some men are lonely and desperate for relationships too, not just women.

 

[LaraOnline]

I don't think it's fair to bash men or women. There are plenty of predatory women in the world as well (only marrying or trapping guys for what they can get) and no-one has mentioned that. There was one here in Australia in the news 3 nights ago, she managed to con 4 million dollars in funds and cars and houses etc out of 6 men. Proving some men are lonely and desperate for relationships too, not just women.

That's true! There are some women I've come across that make me shudder.
I don't think anyone could argue that woman are always 'nice'.
But at the end of the day, a conversation like this has to come down to the numbers.
And I've seen more women pining for marriage with an everything-but partner than I have the opposite.
In fact, it's such a stereotype that quite a lot of comedy comes from that scenario.
So...

Personally I think women are pushing their biology uphill, in terms of modern pressures vis a vis drawn out waiting for marriage.
As I said earlier I think it all comes down to hormones...the use of artificial contraceptives has disrupted a biologically evolved situation whereby the girl became bonded quite quickly to the sexy-but-useless boyfriend, who for natural reasons became maybe a sexy-but-useless father (and usually husband) in fairly short order...and often things went very well! Family does tend to pull people together.

For good or ill - and it's mostly good - that age old system has been changed. There is pressure on women to evolve!
Discussing these things is a good thing for women, and part of the process!
I think the marriage environment has improved overall in comparison with where we were in the 1990s, Nirvana years...judging from popular culture the men were very depressed lol. But then there was a flurry of high-profile women and then doctors complaining about delayed pregnancy problems and things seemed to get more family-friendly!...

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

First, I don't think either male or female upon dating a new person wants to say, they are looking to get married. From what i hear, the women and men say they aren't looking for marriage, just want to live and enjoy life in the present. If there is a strong sexual attraction and other good vibes the relationship usually progresses to where one side wants a more serious relationship. A guy is usually most receptive during the excitement of the newness of the relationship. My theory is that you should know where this relationship is going within one year. I wouldn't move in with anyone before I had a commitment of sorts. If the fellow won't commit at this point (not necessarily marriage proposal, but had a discussion of how the future will unfold for the two of you) I would look elsewhere. A year should be enough time to assess the situation.

When you wait, you lose the spark of new love, and men fall into a routine that is fine for them. So 4 or 5 yrs is downright silly if you want more.

This thought is mostly for younger people. Those divorced people who already have children may handle it differently. I don't think there is a compelling reason to marry a second time if you don't want to.

So ladies--the new rule --One year

 

[kgizo]

I can't think of any situation where if my happiness was dependent upon an event "it will happen, don't worry" and "be patient" would ever be an acceptable answer.

Of course it's fine to wait if both people have agreed there is a reason worth waiting for, but then it isn't really "waiting" because you have a plan. There are so many points in a relationship where you can check in and discuss priorities, compromises to be made and achieving goals together before the "big question". If this isn't happening I imagine it's very difficult to have the lifetime commitment discussion.

I don't think today's men have commitment issues. I think both parties can sometimes be lazy, have a wait and see approach, or fear the other persons answer. I also see plenty of people who say they want a committed relationship, but date in a way that is the exact opposite. You have to know yourself before you can have a committed relationship, otherwise you are a chameleon.

 

[LLJsmom]

I have wondered about this too, because it is so unlike my own personal experience. I have many female family members in the 30 range, which find it hard to get into relationships because many of the men they meet aren't headed down the path of someday wanting to get married and have a family. These women don't even get into relationships with these men. A date or two pretty much will tell them what the need to know, so their problem is not that they are waiting. I guess it's good that they don't find themselves in the position of waiting, but they also aren't in any kind of relationship at all. Maybe that is better...

I agree with the posters who say it's about communication and having the same long and short term goals at the start of the relationship. If you want to get married at X point, and he doesn't, don't even start. Deal breaker right there. Just like the question of whether to have children. Another deal breaker question. Both women and men just have to address these questions early on so no one wastes any time.

 

[Laila619]

I have wondered about this too, because it is so unlike my own personal experience. I have many female family members in the 30 range, which find it hard to get into relationships because many of the men they meet aren't headed down the path of someday wanting to get married and have a family. These women don't even get into relationships with these men. A date or two pretty much will tell them what the need to know, so their problem is not that they are waiting. I guess it's good that they don't find themselves in the position of waiting, but they also aren't in any kind of relationship at all. Maybe that is better...

I agree with the posters who say it's about communication and having the same long and short term goals at the start of the relationship. If you want to get married at X point, and he doesn't, don't even start. Deal breaker right there. Just like the question of whether to have children. Another deal breaker question. Both women and men just have to address these questions early on so no one wastes any time.

I suppose that really is the key. But how? It can be kind of jumping the gun to grill your date whether or not he wants kids and if so, how many, and when he wants to get married. If you do this on the 2nd or 3rd date, some guys will think you are Desperate Clingy Girl and might be scared off. I guess if he is scared off, he wouldn't be the right one anyway though, so I suppose it's no big loss.

 

[Circe]

I have wondered about this too, because it is so unlike my own personal experience. I have many female family members in the 30 range, which find it hard to get into relationships because many of the men they meet aren't headed down the path of someday wanting to get married and have a family. These women don't even get into relationships with these men. A date or two pretty much will tell them what the need to know, so their problem is not that they are waiting. I guess it's good that they don't find themselves in the position of waiting, but they also aren't in any kind of relationship at all. Maybe that is better...

I agree with the posters who say it's about communication and having the same long and short term goals at the start of the relationship. If you want to get married at X point, and he doesn't, don't even start. Deal breaker right there. Just like the question of whether to have children. Another deal breaker question. Both women and men just have to address these questions early on so no one wastes any time.

I suppose that really is the key. But how? It can be kind of jumping the gun to grill your date whether or not he wants kids and if so, how many, and when he wants to get married. If you do this on the 2nd or 3rd date, some guys will think you are Desperate Clingy Girl and might be scared off. I guess if he is scared off, he wouldn't be the right one anyway though, so I suppose it's no big loss.

I'd generally let it come up organically somewhere between our first real conversation and the time he'd gotten tested (yes, this was a pre-condition to any hanky-panky, 'cause I'm damn paranoid, and, yes, I did basically mention this right after we'd established that we had enough chemistry for me to care ... never once had a guy back out at that point). If it hadn't come up by then, didn't care about the results, wasn't taking it any further with him!

 

[LLJsmom]

I have wondered about this too, because it is so unlike my own personal experience. I have many female family members in the 30 range, which find it hard to get into relationships because many of the men they meet aren't headed down the path of someday wanting to get married and have a family. These women don't even get into relationships with these men. A date or two pretty much will tell them what the need to know, so their problem is not that they are waiting. I guess it's good that they don't find themselves in the position of waiting, but they also aren't in any kind of relationship at all. Maybe that is better...

I agree with the posters who say it's about communication and having the same long and short term goals at the start of the relationship. If you want to get married at X point, and he doesn't, don't even start. Deal breaker right there. Just like the question of whether to have children. Another deal breaker question. Both women and men just have to address these questions early on so no one wastes any time.

I suppose that really is the key. But how? It can be kind of jumping the gun to grill your date whether or not he wants kids and if so, how many, and when he wants to get married. If you do this on the 2nd or 3rd date, some guys will think you are Desperate Clingy Girl and might be scared off. I guess if he is scared off, he wouldn't be the right one anyway though, so I suppose it's no big loss.

I'd generally let it come up organically somewhere between our first real conversation and the time he'd gotten tested (yes, this was a pre-condition to any hanky-panky, 'cause I'm damn paranoid, and, yes, I did basically mention this right after we'd established that we had enough chemistry for me to care ... never once had a guy back out at that point). If it hadn't come up by then, didn't care about the results, wasn't taking it any further with him!

Here's a question about that. I hear Laila about not wanting to sound like marriage/reproduction-obsessed woman on the first date. Also, Circe I agree that ideally it should just come up as a normal course of conversation. So do the men that do want to settle down and have a family tend to bring it up, or be receptive to the discussion? Do the men that don't have that goal in mind or don't ever want to get married (Like Kenny said, some people just don't want to get married, ever.) never bring it up?? I'm just wondering because I have no experience or clue. I met my husband when I was almost 16, and never dated anyone else. He and I just talked about marriage as the next step of our lives, part of the planning process. We never lived together before we got married, and were just waiting to get a job so we could support ourselves and start the part of our lives that were lived together. The "proposal" was a formality. In all honesty, the wedding felt that way too, just going through the steps to make it legal and meet the expectations of our families. We just wanted to get to the "after".

And, just to share, I do have women friends in my generation that have had children with their partners, and decided they did NOT want to get married. They never did and still aren't and still built a family together, had kids, bought homes, supported each other financially, etc. Their boyfriends had asked and waited but my friends did NOT want to be married. They stayed together without the legal acknowledgement. I don't get it, but they are fine with it, and it works for them. For some people, it works.

 

[Circe]

I have wondered about this too, because it is so unlike my own personal experience. I have many female family members in the 30 range, which find it hard to get into relationships because many of the men they meet aren't headed down the path of someday wanting to get married and have a family. These women don't even get into relationships with these men. A date or two pretty much will tell them what the need to know, so their problem is not that they are waiting. I guess it's good that they don't find themselves in the position of waiting, but they also aren't in any kind of relationship at all. Maybe that is better...

I agree with the posters who say it's about communication and having the same long and short term goals at the start of the relationship. If you want to get married at X point, and he doesn't, don't even start. Deal breaker right there. Just like the question of whether to have children. Another deal breaker question. Both women and men just have to address these questions early on so no one wastes any time.

I suppose that really is the key. But how? It can be kind of jumping the gun to grill your date whether or not he wants kids and if so, how many, and when he wants to get married. If you do this on the 2nd or 3rd date, some guys will think you are Desperate Clingy Girl and might be scared off. I guess if he is scared off, he wouldn't be the right one anyway though, so I suppose it's no big loss.

I'd generally let it come up organically somewhere between our first real conversation and the time he'd gotten tested (yes, this was a pre-condition to any hanky-panky, 'cause I'm damn paranoid, and, yes, I did basically mention this right after we'd established that we had enough chemistry for me to care ... never once had a guy back out at that point). If it hadn't come up by then, didn't care about the results, wasn't taking it any further with him!

Here's a question about that. I hear Laila about not wanting to sound like marriage/reproduction-obsessed woman on the first date. Also, Circe I agree that ideally it should just come up as a normal course of conversation. So do the men that do want to settle down and have a family tend to bring it up, or be receptive to the discussion? Do the men that don't have that goal in mind or don't ever want to get married (Like Kenny said, some people just don't want to get married, ever.) never bring it up?? I'm just wondering because I have no experience or clue. I met my husband when I was almost 16, and never dated anyone else. He and I just talked about marriage as the next step of our lives, part of the planning process. We never lived together before we got married, and were just waiting to get a job so we could support ourselves and start the part of our lives that were lived together. The "proposal" was a formality. In all honesty, the wedding felt that way too, just going through the steps to make it legal and meet the expectations of our families. We just wanted to get to the "after".

And, just to share, I do have women friends in my generation that have had children with their partners, and decided they did NOT want to get married. They never did and still aren't and still built a family together, had kids, bought homes, supported each other financially, etc. Their boyfriends had asked and waited but my friends did NOT want to be married. They stayed together without the legal acknowledgement. I don't get it, but they are fine with it, and it works for them. For some people, it works.

At least in my experience*, the creepy/insincere/inappropriate men will start saying they want to marry you on, like, day 3 (and then they turn out to be either controlling/manipulative, or idealistic/feckless). The good ones either have the balls to take it as a completely normal thing for a lady to mention to somebody they're, you know, meeting on the regular with an towards eventually having the intercourse with (within or without the bonds of holy matrimony), an activity that can eventually lead to offspring, OR they mention it themselves in the context of talking about their pasts. The only guy I ever dated who did neither? Thankfully, it didn't go anywhere, 'cause they he said he was single and unmarried ... turned out to be separated with 4 kids. D'oh.

*Emphasizing the anecdotal aspect of this as hard as I can - I'm sure there are perfectly nice reticent men out there. I just never dated one.

 

[kenny]

I have wondered about this too, because it is so unlike my own personal experience. I have many female family members in the 30 range, which find it hard to get into relationships because many of the men they meet aren't headed down the path of someday wanting to get married and have a family. These women don't even get into relationships with these men. A date or two pretty much will tell them what the need to know, so their problem is not that they are waiting. I guess it's good that they don't find themselves in the position of waiting, but they also aren't in any kind of relationship at all. Maybe that is better...

I agree with the posters who say it's about communication and having the same long and short term goals at the start of the relationship. If you want to get married at X point, and he doesn't, don't even start. Deal breaker right there. Just like the question of whether to have children. Another deal breaker question. Both women and men just have to address these questions early on so no one wastes any time.

I suppose that really is the key. But how? It can be kind of jumping the gun to grill your date whether or not he wants kids and if so, how many, and when he wants to get married. If you do this on the 2nd or 3rd date, some guys will think you are Desperate Clingy Girl and might be scared off. I guess if he is scared off, he wouldn't be the right one anyway though, so I suppose it's no big loss.

If discussing this on the 2nd or 3rd date is too soon then discuss it later.
I'd say if marriage/kids is a deal breaker for you the topic merits discussion by month 2, 3 at the latest.

And don't 'grill' your date.
Just find a moment to discuss what you see for your future.
If he responds with, 'Yeah I want to marry and raise a family too', that's a green light.
If he immediately changes the subject, or there is a long awkward silence, you have your answer and that's your last date.
It's much easier to break things off after 2 months than after 2 years of waiting quietly, mousey and lady-like.

 

[perry]

...
Actually yes, men in general have a "commitment" issue compared to the past with marriage. The biggest reason for it is how the legal system treats them once married and if there is a divorce. Something like 3/4 of all divorces are filed by the woman; and the courts tend to heavily side with the woman's position in divorce. The legal system is not balanced; and marriage is a huge risk for a man that it was not 30 or 40 years ago. This is a common area of discussion among the various men I know; and the most often cited reason that so many men are totally unwilling to ever remarry after divorce.

So add that to all the other issues being discussed. Things have changed a lot in the last 40 years.

How so, Perry? Unless the man marries a homemaker, there's not much worry anymore. In an equitable distribution state, who earned the income or inherited the money or otherwise footed the bill(s) or pumped financial assets into the marriage definitely does factor into the property settlement. Inheritance can be kept totally separate, not joint property. So long as a guy marries a woman with roughly equivalent assets and income, and she stays working and doesn't become a dependent homemaker, there's a pretty good chance of close to a 50/50 settlement. The state I live in requires 10 years min of marriage to be eligible for alimony, and there's no guarantee of alimony, and it usually is only granted for a few years after, not forever. Spousal support while the couple is separated but still not divorced may be pretty much a continual thing, but again, that requires a recipient who is a stay-home non-working or low-paid person. Child support is child support, and a man can get stuck with that married or not.
Moral of the story: Be like all the engineers I know. Marry a good wageearner, don't let her sit at home, and have zero to one or two kids at very most.

I'm female, and I married a man who earned considerably less, and he ran up over $35k in credit card debt. But, I had a prenup, made him pay 50% of house payment and utilities, kept separate credit cards and bank accounts all the way, and used a joint account to pay household expenses and house payments. We had no kids. We divorced after 9 years married. The court stuck him with all the debts that he'd run up in his name. We sold the house and split that 50/50. Easy-peasy, Perry. Had the roles been reversed, there would have been no difference in the property settlement. Men get burned because they allow themselves to be set up for that.

TC1987:

Certainly you know that each state has their own different laws; and while the concept that things should work out 50/50 is a great concept. The fact is that usually it does not work that way (even when it really should). There are a number of studies out there that solidly back up the fact that on a national basis men come out worse in divorce court than can be explained by their relative differences in income and what did or did not occur. It has been several years since I researched that so I don't have any links handy; nor do I intend to find them now (I'm pretty busy with other things; which is why I do not post much anymore).

I am glad that you did well with your pre-nup. A lot of courts toss out sections of pre-nups; if not the entire thing. They do have to be done right (and doing them right is not necessarily cheap). Also, mention pre-nup to many woman and their first reaction is "what - you don't love me". For the record. I do have a pre-nup; and dispite my best attempts I am not sure how well it will really protect me because I live in a community property state that makes actual enforcement of certain things difficult (no matter what the pre-nup says). That may be just because of the specific laws in my state though and not the other community property states. I should also mention that Pre-nups have been discussed several times on Pricescope over the last decade and my recollection is that there are a lot of PS ladies who would have nothing to do with a pre-nup as a condition of marriage (there are clearly some who would and do).

I do not think it is quite as simple as "men get burned because they allow themselves to be set up for that" I think its more that the courts have in general in most states have made it easy for a woman to take more than their fair share. As I said in my original post - this is a very common subject among men when discussion marriage in men's groups.

But, it is only part of many issues that go into deciding to marry or not.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[perry]

I think it's really interesting that so many believe the reason a man waits to marry is because he's waiting to see if something better comes along. I don't really think that's as prevalent as people think.

I totally agree with this. Most men are not just looking for a trade - If they want to get married; they are looking for the "right one"; and there are many variations of who can be that person (most men look at the whole package to see if its overall suitable, not focus on one or two specific things).

But, many men (and woman too) are not looking to get married at this time - and are looking for companionship. There are some great companionship relationships out there (and I lived one for a few years in my past). But, we both knew we were not getting married.

Life is worth living if you do it right,

Perry

 

[Imdanny]

Mine doesn't. YMMV.

 

[aljdewey]

I suppose that really is the key. But how? It can be kind of jumping the gun to grill your date whether or not he wants kids and if so, how many, and when he wants to get married. If you do this on the 2nd or 3rd date, some guys will think you are Desperate Clingy Girl and might be scared off. I guess if he is scared off, he wouldn't be the right one anyway though, so I suppose it's no big loss.

Second or third date? Why does it have to be so one extreme or the other? There's a huge gulf of time between the extremes of 2-3 dates into a relationship and 2-3 years into a relationship. It would behoove folks to use that middle ground. After a few months of dating someone (in post-college environment), I'd feel it totally appropriate to have a discussion about each other's life goals and potential timelines for those goals. I don't think people have to have it figured out down to the .5 kid or how many pets, etc. but I do think it's fair to find out if someone wants to spend the next 5-7 years travelling the world, etc.

 

[Maria D]

It's kind of long at 20 minutes, and it's not completely on topic here, but I found this woman's TED talk on how she met her match (in her 30s) through online dating thoroughly entertaining! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF5VVrsnpzo