Do today's men have commitment issues?

[yorkgirl]

I talked to my husband about this thread. For what it's worth we've been together for 15 years and discussed marriage early on, both chose a ring (though he paid) and celebrated our engagement together. No proposal - I agree it's a formality. We've had a romantic life built on mutual partnership and equality. I never ever got the proposal thing...it feels quite hokey to me, like the whole being asked to prom deal. Staged. But any girls that are engaged at work, after squeals the questions from other women are always "how did he propose???"

He pointed out the same point a guy said earlier about 3/4 of women being the ones filing for divorce. In addition, the sexual revolution has also brought on the fact that women are just as likely to cheat on their partners as men are. Also children of divorce are less likely to be in lasting marriages themselves. More divorces equal more children of divorce.

So perhaps all of this waiting could be lack of mutual trust? Less faith in marriage overall?

I do agree though that intentions should be stated early on, not the third date or anything but c'mon, in the first year. A year is a long time! How could you not have that discussion within a year, or do have that discussion and accept "be patient" as a good answer? That's why I think proposals are hokey - that element of waiting to be asked is fake, and puts all the control and power in the guys hands in terms of timing. That's what is not very modern to me. That only made sense in Victorian times when women did nothing but tend to their homes and wait to accept marriage proposals.

 

[MonkeysInk]

My then-boyfriend-now-husband was more afraid of marrying me than he was of being killed by the Taliban.

We met a few years after I'd gotten divorced and very shortly after he had. We had clear expectations from the very beginning (that we both wanted to get married and have children) but as things got more serious, he got freaked out. He'd been in the Reserves for nineteen years without drilling or doing anything but some annual paperwork (his professional experience covered the other requirements) and suddenly decided to enquire about active duty assignments. Poof, he's in a freaking war zone and I'm seeing his people in the WSJ while I drink my coffee and hearing explosions while we talk on the phone.

He came home ready to get married and all is well - we have kids and a house and all the things we wanted. In his defense, he'd been married a long time before and his heart (and trust) badly broken.

I still tease him that I am scarier than the Taliban.

 

[TC1987]

TC1987:

Certainly you know that each state has their own different laws; and while the concept that things should work out 50/50 is a great concept. The fact is that usually it does not work that way (even when it really should). There are a number of studies out there that solidly back up the fact that on a national basis men come out worse in divorce court than can be explained by their relative differences in income and what did or did not occur. It has been several years since I researched that so I don't have any links handy; nor do I intend to find them now (I'm pretty busy with other things; which is why I do not post much anymore). --- I understand that some are community property. But then, you can control the possible outcome of that by controlling whom you marry or don't marry, correct? There have probably been MORE studies that concluded that the income and the standard of living of women and children drop substantially after a divorce.

I am glad that you did well with your pre-nup. A lot of courts toss out sections of pre-nups; if not the entire thing. -- I had mine written by the best divorce attorney in town. If you're going to play hardball,then do just that. They do have to be done right (and doing them right is not necessarily cheap). Also, mention pre-nup to many woman and their first reaction is "what - you don't love me". -- I'd retort with "No, the assets I earned before you came along are mine, and yours are yours. What we build together is ours, but we are not kids starting out with nothing, and this agreement reflects that." For the record. I do have a pre-nup; and dispite my best attempts I am not sure how well it will really protect me because I live in a community property state that makes actual enforcement of certain things difficult (no matter what the pre-nup says). That may be just because of the specific laws in my state though and not the other community property states. I should also mention that Pre-nups have been discussed several times on Pricescope over the last decade and my recollection is that there are a lot of PS ladies who would have nothing to do with a pre-nup as a condition of marriage (there are clearly some who would and do).

I do not think it is quite as simple as "men get burned because they allow themselves to be set up for that" I think its more that the courts have in general in most states have made it easy for a woman to take more than their fair share. As I said in my original post - this is a very common subject among men when discussion marriage in men's groups.

But, it is only part of many issues that go into deciding to marry or not.

Have a great day,

Perry

Oh, I DO think it's as simple as that. Men need to quit playing victim. If you allow a situation, then you've allowed it. Take the blame and take your lumps, men. Courts do usually allow "more than her fair share" to a nonworking / homemaker spouse, because they see a homemaker's services as having value, and they also consider that the man agreed to having that situation, especially if it's gone on for a few years. That's why you don't want a nonearning spouse. Nobody who has just one kid needs a homemaker. I grew up in a 2 parent, dual career household. I see NO need for a homemaker in a marriage, once the kids are in school at least part of the day. My mother said she saw no need to sit at home all day, because "there's not that much to be done in a home if you are organized, the kids do chores, and the husband also pitches in." So, on the flip side of that, if you have a homemaker doing all of the scutwork and keeping the household running, and totally freeing up her husband's time so that all he has to do is his career, then, yes the courts DO see that woman's services as having value.

I don't think I'll ever marry again. I found it insulting. I was in my 30s when I married, and it was a complete disappointment and a very negative experience. I really didn't get much out of it, I hated being downgraded to "wife," and I chafed at having to do ALL of the stupid boring housework. Children were out of the question. Unfortunately, they'd just have been more chores and expenses for me, because the now ex-husband 1) was not a provider, and 2) would never do "women's work." The single males where I live now are not even date material. They make my ex look like a real catch. LOL

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Honestly, among my circle of friends, no they do not have commitment issues. All of my DH's close friends married before they were 30, so far they are all still married and most have started families. We are all working professionals who have completed at least some college if not grad school. Only 1 male friend is not married, he had a child out of marriage in his early 20's and did not complete college. We all live in NYC/ Long Island.

In my extended circle the men who aren't married are the ones who don't have financial means to support themselves and still rely on their parents. The same mostly goes for the ladies as well.

My DH and I started dating when we were teens. We decided before we started college that we would get married before we graduated. A year into college we got engaged. I picked, he paid. The actual proposal was a surprise, he waited two days once he had the ring. We were married while I was in grad school and will be celebrating our 6 wedding anniversary as well as 13 years together in total.

I honestly think that by the time men are in their 30's the ones who want to be married are already married. What you get after that are the forever bachelors or already divorced. Also, marriage isn't always immediately about having children. As I mentioned I have been married 6 years happily with no children, we are only just starting to plan for children. The biggest thing I can say is about both people in a relationship being on the same page. From relatively early on. That may vary for each couple but I wouldn't be spending the night with someone regularly unless I knew there were further plans.

 

[Laila619]

Honestly, among my circle of friends, no they do not have commitment issues. All of my DH's close friends married before they were 30, so far they are all still married and most have started families. We are all working professionals who have completed at least some college if not grad school. Only 1 male friend is not married, he had a child out of marriage in his early 20's and did not complete college. We all live in NYC/ Long Island.

In my extended circle the men who aren't married are the ones who don't have financial means to support themselves and still rely on their parents. The same mostly goes for the ladies as well.

My DH and I started dating when we were teens. We decided before we started college that we would get married before we graduated. A year into college we got engaged. I picked, he paid. The actual proposal was a surprise, he waited two days once he had the ring. We were married while I was in grad school and will be celebrating our 6 wedding anniversary as well as 13 years together in total.

I honestly think that by the time men are in their 30's the ones who want to be married are already married. What you get after that are the forever bachelors or already divorced. Also, marriage isn't always immediately about having children. As I mentioned I have been married 6 years happily with no children, we are only just starting to plan for children. The biggest thing I can say is about both people in a relationship being on the same page. From relatively early on. That may vary for each couple but I wouldn't be spending the night with someone regularly unless I knew there were further plans.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. Like I mentioned, my friends' boyfriends are all in their mid 30s. Even though they might be *saying* all the right things, that they want to get married and have kids, their actions are saying something totally different. And at 35+, they are not getting any younger.

 

[TooPatient]

...
Actually yes, men in general have a "commitment" issue compared to the past with marriage. The biggest reason for it is how the legal system treats them once married and if there is a divorce. Something like 3/4 of all divorces are filed by the woman; and the courts tend to heavily side with the woman's position in divorce. The legal system is not balanced; and marriage is a huge risk for a man that it was not 30 or 40 years ago. This is a common area of discussion among the various men I know; and the most often cited reason that so many men are totally unwilling to ever remarry after divorce.

So add that to all the other issues being discussed. Things have changed a lot in the last 40 years.

How so, Perry? Unless the man marries a homemaker, there's not much worry anymore. In an equitable distribution state, who earned the income or inherited the money or otherwise footed the bill(s) or pumped financial assets into the marriage definitely does factor into the property settlement. Inheritance can be kept totally separate, not joint property. So long as a guy marries a woman with roughly equivalent assets and income, and she stays working and doesn't become a dependent homemaker, there's a pretty good chance of close to a 50/50 settlement. The state I live in requires 10 years min of marriage to be eligible for alimony, and there's no guarantee of alimony, and it usually is only granted for a few years after, not forever. Spousal support while the couple is separated but still not divorced may be pretty much a continual thing, but again, that requires a recipient who is a stay-home non-working or low-paid person. Child support is child support, and a man can get stuck with that married or not.
Moral of the story: Be like all the engineers I know. Marry a good wageearner, don't let her sit at home, and have zero to one or two kids at very most.

I'm female, and I married a man who earned considerably less, and he ran up over $35k in credit card debt. But, I had a prenup, made him pay 50% of house payment and utilities, kept separate credit cards and bank accounts all the way, and used a joint account to pay household expenses and house payments. We had no kids. We divorced after 9 years married. The court stuck him with all the debts that he'd run up in his name. We sold the house and split that 50/50. Easy-peasy, Perry. Had the roles been reversed, there would have been no difference in the property settlement. Men get burned because they allow themselves to be set up for that.

TC -- Actually, Perry is very correct. DH and his ex made comparable salaries. They owned two houses. She had a brand new car (no payments) and he had a POS that was always breaking down. She had retirement accounts, a trust fund, a NYC apartment, and more. He paid the majority of household bills including private school tuition for "A". This is a community property state. She got both houses, her new car, all of her retirement, trust fund, apartment, etc. He got to keep his POS car and (about 6 months later...) was allowed to take whatever of his clothes she saw fit to throw in boxes for him to collect. He also got to keep paying for the private school tuition, additional for a nanny, and child support above and beyond.

I don't see how entering a relationship with someone with a college degree and good salary is allowing themselves to be set up for that. The only way to NOT potentially face that is to remain single and celibate for life.