Do you drink milk? Take 2

[firebirdgold]

Milk Drinker

Besides, it helps ward off the osteoporosis fairy. After my non-dairy consuming mother broke her ankle while walking on a path around a lake... I seriously upped my dairy intake.

 

[firebirdgold]

Date: 8/10/2007 11:39:13 PM
Author: strmrdr
mildly lactose intolerant as iv gotten old, a glass of milk will give me a tummy ache but can eat pizza and stuff with cheese on it with no problem.

Biggest thing is ever since I had real milk the processed crap the stores sell tastes like garbage.

You havent had milk till its 2 min from the cow.

Skin the cream off then pour it over ice.. yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Er... I don''t know why... but I''ve always thought that the French ultra pasteurized and processed milk that can last for months in your pantry (unopened) actually tastes really good.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Yes, a little. I use it in baking frequently though, and I insist on it with chocolate chip cookies and oreos. Raw milk is my favorite but I don''t drink any sort of milk much, really, I am not a beverage person (just drink water mostly)

 

[rainbowtrout]

Humans are the ONLY species who drink ANOTHER species' milk. Hmmmm...what's wrong with that picture? Mother's milk=mother's milk in my book, and while I have seen instances where certain animals, say, a cat, will nurse a canine puppy, that is very, very rare. So why do humans insist on drinking cows or goat's milk? I don't get it. Frankly, I'm glad I stopped. Stepping off soapbox right now.


By the way, the "reason" humans drink another species' milk is because it is an INCREDIBLY beneficial genetic mutation. The lactose operon is the single fastest spreading evolutionary development in recent (on an evolutionary scale) human history. Why?? Because it gave us access to plentiful calories with a steady source! You can milk your cow instead of killing it, lasts longer.


Sorry but the "Ewwww, bovine lactose is sooooo not natural for humans" argument is silly. You don't have the mutation, you don't have the mutation (lactose intolerance) but it isn't unnatural or twisted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/science/10cnd-evolve.html

that link will give a general idea, it is by no means the only article on the subject.

 

[justjulia]

Love milk. Skim, 2%, whole--love it all. With a teenage male in the house, we go through it like crazy. ...I love cheese, too--give me a hunk of smoked gouda and I''m in heaven. My fav snack is eating right out of a package of crumbled blue cheese.

 

[vintagebling]

Love milk (organic of course), but recently decided to switch to soy (edensoy vanilla). I felt I was consuming too much dairy. Feel better without it, still eat cheese though!

 

[angel_nieves]

Never realy liked milk here love rice milk and soy milk though

 

[KimberlyH]

Wow, lots of interesting conversation, especially considering my poll failed.

For the record, I don't drink milk. I don't loathe it as deco does, I just switched to soy milk because I get my dairy in other ways and DH hates the sight of it (he is the grocery shopper in our house). He was raised a non-milk drinker. I'll have it if I'm a guest in someone's home who serves it over cereal, etc. it as I'm not opposed to it, but I don't miss drinking it at all. And I used to be, in my early 20s, a glass a day gal, I loved milk. The calories where the reason I stopped doing that.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I''m not a milk drinker. It gives me a stomach ache.

Both my kids drink it and my husband puts it in his coffee, so I get organic whole milk for them.

 

[vintagebling]

This is a funny thread!

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 8/11/2007 11:58:55 AM
Author: vintagebling
This is a funny thread!

It is a bit silly.

I was at my parents house for a few days and had milk for the first time in a bit less than a year; I started thinking about my change in milk consumption over the last 10 years from a lot to none. I love dairy products (cheese and ice cream are two of my favorite foods, followed up by chips and salsa) but cutting out milk was a way for me to cut calories. My husband was raised (by a brilliant orthopedic surgeon, no less) to believe that drinking milk is unnatural so he thinks it''s repulsive.

 

[Haven]

I loooooove milk! I drink a little over three gallons A WEEK, seriously. I''ve been a huge milk drinker my entire life, and even in my mid (er, almost late) twenties I have yet to develop the lactose intolerance that everyone has been telling me I''d bring on by my milk-drinking habits.

I drink Oberweis fat free milk, yummmmmmm.

It''s a big joke in my family that I''m so tall (5''9 1/2") because of all the milk I drank growing up. I''m by far the tallest member of my family, other than my father who is my height. I also had to have ALL my baby teeth pulled when I was younger and my dentist joked it was because all that milk made my teeth too strong. Both are totally untrue, but have become family stories over the years.

I know I''m a milk-drinking freak, don''t flame me! I also drink tons of water and iced tea, so milk is not my only fluid, I swear!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I love a glass (or two

) of ICE cold skim milk with any type of dessert. Chocolate + milk = a perfect combo IMHO. I also love chocolate milk

 

[jcrow]

**blech** i can''t stand milk! even as a kid i hated it! it tastes so discusting! if a recipe calls for it, i''ll probably use it as (as long as i don''t taste it).
i''ve switched to soy milk though, so that''s usually what i cook with - though it''s rare when there''s a need for that. i''ll use soy milk in my cereal. but in my bowl, if i see it, it''s too much!

on a side note: i also HATE yougurt. milk shakes. vanilla ice cream. YUCK.
i do like cheese & butter though. i like love those two things! and if i eat ice cream, it''s got to be hugely flavored and have tons of toppings!

 

[monarch64]

Date: 8/11/2007 6:21:11 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
Humans are the ONLY species who drink ANOTHER species'' milk. Hmmmm...what''s wrong with that picture? Mother''s milk=mother''s milk in my book, and while I have seen instances where certain animals, say, a cat, will nurse a canine puppy, that is very, very rare. So why do humans insist on drinking cows or goat''s milk? I don''t get it. Frankly, I''m glad I stopped. Stepping off soapbox right now.


By the way, the ''reason'' humans drink another species'' milk is because it is an INCREDIBLY beneficial genetic mutation. The lactose operon is the single fastest spreading evolutionary development in recent (on an evolutionary scale) human history. Why?? Because it gave us access to plentiful calories with a steady source! You can milk your cow instead of killing it, lasts longer.


Sorry but the ''Ewwww, bovine lactose is sooooo not natural for humans'' argument is silly. You don''t have the mutation, you don''t have the mutation (lactose intolerance) but it isn''t unnatural or twisted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/science/10cnd-evolve.html

that link will give a general idea, it is by no means the only article on the subject.

Oh RT, have a slice of vegan pie. Sheesh. I didn''t mean to imply that it was "twisted," I was just trying to say that if you think about it the way I described it does seem strange. But I have been overruled by the ignorance police once again.

 

[VegasAngel]

Date: 8/11/2007 1:18:23 AM
Author: monarch64
I was raised on whole milk. When I was in high school I started drinking skim and drank that through college, then when I went veg I stopped drinking milk altogether. I now drink almond milk on cereal and that's about it.

Storm, I've SEEN milk two minutes off the cow and it is disgusting. I don't know how one could find it appetizing even after it's skimmed and poured over ice, blech. I've seen the whole calf come out, the afterbirth, etc., and all in all, not an appetizing experience. But I digress.

Humans are the ONLY species who drink ANOTHER species' milk. Hmmmm...what's wrong with that picture? Mother's milk=mother's milk in my book, and while I have seen instances where certain animals, say, a cat, will nurse a canine puppy, that is very, very rare. So why do humans insist on drinking cows or goat's milk? I don't get it. Frankly, I'm glad I stopped. Stepping off soapbox right now.

I 100% agree with you, Monarch. Humans do not need cows milk at all. There are plenty of foods you can eat to get calcium along with calcium supplements, calcium fortified O.J. & there are plenty of way to get calories, fat (Advocado, cooking with olive oil for example). What's hard for me is that all dairy products screw my body up terribly. Just about everything contains dairy

Trying to go completely dairy free is tough.

Forgot to answer original post- Do i drink nice tall glasses of milk?-Heck no. I do eat dairy products even though I shouldnt be.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 8/11/2007 4:26:14 PM
Author: monarch64

Date: 8/11/2007 6:21:11 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
Humans are the ONLY species who drink ANOTHER species'' milk. Hmmmm...what''s wrong with that picture? Mother''s milk=mother''s milk in my book, and while I have seen instances where certain animals, say, a cat, will nurse a canine puppy, that is very, very rare. So why do humans insist on drinking cows or goat''s milk? I don''t get it. Frankly, I''m glad I stopped. Stepping off soapbox right now.


By the way, the ''reason'' humans drink another species'' milk is because it is an INCREDIBLY beneficial genetic mutation. The lactose operon is the single fastest spreading evolutionary development in recent (on an evolutionary scale) human history. Why?? Because it gave us access to plentiful calories with a steady source! You can milk your cow instead of killing it, lasts longer.


Sorry but the ''Ewwww, bovine lactose is sooooo not natural for humans'' argument is silly. You don''t have the mutation, you don''t have the mutation (lactose intolerance) but it isn''t unnatural or twisted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/science/10cnd-evolve.html

that link will give a general idea, it is by no means the only article on the subject.

Oh RT, have a slice of vegan pie. Sheesh. I didn''t mean to imply that it was ''twisted,'' I was just trying to say that if you think about it the way I described it does seem strange. But I have been overruled by the ignorance police once again.

Monnie, as I mentioned above my husband was raised not to drink for the same reason you described, his father was a prominent orthopedic surgeon (someone you would think would encourage drinking milk to help bone density, etc.). He was by no means ignorant, he was a cattle fed mid-westerner with a brilliant mind and a strong opinion about milk.

Those of us in America now live in a society that could stand to consume a lot fewer calories so milk isn''t really necessary here anymore...we''ve replaced the need for milk with our over consumption of fast food and Ranch dressing among other things.

Again, I''m not opposed to drinking milk -- life without ice cream is not a life worth living! -- I just think it''s interesting because I''d never heard of someone not drinking milk for reasons other than lactose intolerance until I met my husband. And the argument that some people think it seems unatural, genetic mutations or not, doesn''t make their belief that it seems strange any less valid. Lots of things can be explained through science and still seem strange.

 

[Independent Gal]

Personally, I love a frosty glass of skim milk. Mmm mmmm! And I LOVE cheese. Especially good cheese (reblochon - squidgy and super stinky heaven - is my favourite, but a fine Vermont cheddar makes me a happy lady too!) And ice cream. And yogurt. Good thing too, as there's lots of osteoperosis in my family. Sure, I could take a supplement but it's just easier to drink milk since I like it.

As for the 'it's just not natural' argument, humans are certainly not the only animals that learn to exploit other species for new food sources that weren't 'natural' for it before. For example, fur seals used to only eat krill, but very recently, on just one single island in the south pacific, they started eating the local penguins. Works great for the seals! not so great for the penguins who haven't evolved any defences. If the seals met other seal pods (pods?) I'm sure this new innovation would spread. Think of all those practically effortless stores of fat.... probably taste good too. Nice change from all that shellfish.

It's 'natural' for animals to adopt new food sources when one of them figures one out. Some species are capable of learning from other individuals in that species, so if it makes sense, the change in diet spreads.

ETA: come to think of it, antarctic penguins of the same species (king) have to run from leopard seals. Wonder why the fur seals are so much more successful on land... hmmmm.. ok, sorry for all the animal trivia today.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 8/11/2007 4:26:14 PM
Author: monarch64

Date: 8/11/2007 6:21:11 AM

Author: rainbowtrout

Humans are the ONLY species who drink ANOTHER species'' milk. Hmmmm...what''s wrong with that picture? Mother''s milk=mother''s milk in my book, and while I have seen instances where certain animals, say, a cat, will nurse a canine puppy, that is very, very rare. So why do humans insist on drinking cows or goat''s milk? I don''t get it. Frankly, I''m glad I stopped. Stepping off soapbox right now.



By the way, the ''reason'' humans drink another species'' milk is because it is an INCREDIBLY beneficial genetic mutation. The lactose operon is the single fastest spreading evolutionary development in recent (on an evolutionary scale) human history. Why?? Because it gave us access to plentiful calories with a steady source! You can milk your cow instead of killing it, lasts longer.



Sorry but the ''Ewwww, bovine lactose is sooooo not natural for humans'' argument is silly. You don''t have the mutation, you don''t have the mutation (lactose intolerance) but it isn''t unnatural or twisted.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/science/10cnd-evolve.html


that link will give a general idea, it is by no means the only article on the subject.

Oh RT, have a slice of vegan pie. Sheesh. I didn''t mean to imply that it was ''twisted,'' I was just trying to say that if you think about it the way I described it does seem strange. But I have been overruled by the ignorance police once again.

So, here is my point:

There is nothing wrong at all with not drinking milk. For some reasons people have listed, I barely drink milk myself. It has a ton of calories and it isn''t the best source of Ca in the world, most mass produced milk is cruel to animals, etc. But there is no need to make it into an "Ew, this is weird and strange" thing to justify one''s decision not to drink milk. PETA uses this kind of argument as do many vegans I know, the "Oh god, that is so not-normal!" Sort of like the "honey is bee-vomit" line.

Many people I have spoken to (honestly mostly in LA) will go on about how most people can''t digest milk, etc etc and you can''t get nutrients from it, and it frustrates me because it just isn''t true. Lots of people CAN digest it and get calories from it.

It isn''t so much an "ignorance police" issue as this: if you are going to get on a soapbox about your dietary choices and say that to you, logically (as opposed to emotionally), it seems a bizzare choice to do otherwise--well, in this case I happen to feel it *isn''t* bizarre, and I can back that up.

I do think the word "twisted" that I used was a little strong, I think you didn''t mean that.


lol...can we tell I am an INTJ????

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 8/11/2007 4:59:12 PM
Author: Independent Gal
Personally, I love a frosty glass of skim milk. Mmm mmmm! And I LOVE cheese. Especially good cheese (reblochon - squidgy and super stinky heaven - is my favourite, but a fine Vermont cheddar makes me a happy lady too!) And ice cream. And yogurt. Good thing too, as there''s lots of osteoperosis in my family. Sure, I could take a supplement but it''s just easier to drink milk since I like it.


As for the ''it''s just not natural'' argument, humans are certainly not the only animals that learn to exploit other species for new food sources that weren''t ''natural'' for it before. For example, fur seals used to only eat krill, but very recently, on just one single island in the south pacific, they started eating the local penguins. Works great for the seals! not so great for the penguins who haven''t evolved any defences. If the seals met other seal pods (pods?) I''m sure this new innovation would spread. Think of all those practically effortless stores of fat.... probably taste good too. Nice change from all that shellfish.


It''s ''natural'' for animals to adopt new food sources when one of them figures one out. Some species are capable of learning from other individuals in that species, so if it makes sense, the change in diet spreads.


ETA: come to think of it, antarctic penguins of the same species (king) have to run from leopard seals. Wonder why the fur seals are so much more successful on land... hmmmm.. ok, sorry for all the animal trivia today.

Oh lord IG....rotfl. Seals! This is like National Geographic here today!

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 8/11/2007 5:13:30 PM
Author: rainbowtrout

Date: 8/11/2007 4:26:14 PM
Author: monarch64

Date: 8/11/2007 6:21:11 AM

Author: rainbowtrout

Humans are the ONLY species who drink ANOTHER species' milk. Hmmmm...what's wrong with that picture? Mother's milk=mother's milk in my book, and while I have seen instances where certain animals, say, a cat, will nurse a canine puppy, that is very, very rare. So why do humans insist on drinking cows or goat's milk? I don't get it. Frankly, I'm glad I stopped. Stepping off soapbox right now.



By the way, the 'reason' humans drink another species' milk is because it is an INCREDIBLY beneficial genetic mutation. The lactose operon is the single fastest spreading evolutionary development in recent (on an evolutionary scale) human history. Why?? Because it gave us access to plentiful calories with a steady source! You can milk your cow instead of killing it, lasts longer.



Sorry but the 'Ewwww, bovine lactose is sooooo not natural for humans' argument is silly. You don't have the mutation, you don't have the mutation (lactose intolerance) but it isn't unnatural or twisted.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/science/10cnd-evolve.html


that link will give a general idea, it is by no means the only article on the subject.

Oh RT, have a slice of vegan pie. Sheesh. I didn't mean to imply that it was 'twisted,' I was just trying to say that if you think about it the way I described it does seem strange. But I have been overruled by the ignorance police once again.

So, here is my point:

There is nothing wrong at all with not drinking milk. For some reasons people have listed, I barely drink milk myself. It has a ton of calories and it isn't the best source of Ca in the world, most mass produced milk is cruel to animals, etc. But there is no need to make it into an 'Ew, this is weird and strange' thing to justify one's decision not to drink milk. PETA uses this kind of argument as do many vegans I know, the 'Oh god, that is so not-normal!' Sort of like the 'honey is bee-vomit' line.

Many people I have spoken to (honestly mostly in LA) will go on about how most people can't digest milk, etc etc and you can't get nutrients from it, and it frustrates me because it just isn't true. Lots of people CAN digest it and get calories from it.

It isn't so much an 'ignorance police' issue as this: if you are going to get on a soapbox about your dietary choices and say that to you, logically (as opposed to emotionally), it seems a bizzare choice to do otherwise--well, in this case I happen to feel it *isn't* bizarre, and I can back that up.

I do think the word 'twisted' that I used was a little strong, I think you didn't mean that.


lol...can we tell I am an INTJ????

But isn't that exactly the point...you don't "feel" it is bizarre but others do...doesn't make your feelings right and theirs wrong just because you have found a scientific explanation for why humans drink milk. As I said before, lots of strange things occur that can be explained scientifically (like the fact that whales speak in different dialects, which i think is very strange), doesn't mean that people still shouldn't find them difficult to understand or strange, and if makes them not want to drink milk, does it really matter? It's not like the world is going to end because some people think drinking milk from another species is strange, and knowing that we have a genetic mutation might not make it any less strange for some people.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Exactly KimberlyH (forgive me, I am not quoting because it is too long)--there is nothing wrong at all with feeling that way! You can totally feel like it is weird, nothing bad about that.

It's claiming that it IS weird in a definitive, logical way that bugs me. The chain of *reasoning* that leads to it bugs me. So it's an emotional decision, cool. Just admit it's an emotional decision. Everyone makes lots of them, every day. Drinking milk or not is not something one has to base in scientific fact, and anyway, you could argue either side on it.



And no, of course the sky won't fall if others disagree with me. But this thread had both statements about What and statements about Why, and I was debating a point about Why.


ETA: Monarch, I am sorry if it feels like I am picking specifically on you. I am not, it is not just your one post--it is many things in the vegan literature I have read that sound very similar to what you said, plus things my family have said, etc.

 

[Independent Gal]

Strange and natural aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The platypus is strange (but cute, and natural!). Human childbirth is extremely strange (but, I'm told, beautiful and definitely natural!).

I suppose the key, with strange food, is not to be too judgmental if something seems strange or gross to one person, but not to others. I'm totally grossed out by the idea of eating termites. But they are a delicious snack to others. I might quietly make a face. But wouldn't look down on them. Many people would be TOTALLY grossed out by my favourite extremely stinky cheese. I guess I wouldn't mind if they made a face. More for me!!!

With food, moral issues, cultural issues, and aesthetic issues tend to get bundled together. Which is interesting.

ETA: Well, at least no humans think it's aesthetically or morally good to eat our dinner while it's still alive, as, apparently, many bonobos do (close relative of the chimp and THE closest relative of US). They like to eat around the 'this will kill you' parts of their prey till the very end. Ah, nature. So kind! so peaceful! So beautiful!

 

[gwendolyn]

I love milk, although I try to usually drink water instead just because there''s a fair bit of sugar in it and I don''t need it.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 8/11/2007 5:43:10 PM
Author: Independent Gal
Strange and natural aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The platypus is strange (but cute, and natural!). Human childbirth is extremely strange (but, I'm told, beautiful and definitely natural!).


I suppose the key, with strange food, is not to be too judgmental if something seems strange or gross to one person, but not to others. I'm totally grossed out by the idea of eating termites. But they are a delicious snack to others. I might quietly make a face. But wouldn't look down on them. Many people would be TOTALLY grossed out by my favourite extremely stinky cheese. I guess I wouldn't mind if they made a face. More for me!!!


With food, moral issues, cultural issues, and aesthetic issues tend to get bundled together. Which is interesting.


ETA: Well, at least no humans think it's aesthetically or morally good to eat our dinner while it's still alive, as, apparently, many bonobos do (close relative of the chimp and THE closest relative of US). They like to eat around the 'this will kill you' parts of their prey till the very end. Ah, nature. So kind! so peaceful! So beautiful!

Ah, yes. Bonobos also er....have intimate relations--all the time, yes? With any gender? Hm. Wonder what else "isn't natural." Seriously, chimps freak me out in how closely they mirror our own animal savagery, but also our own kindnesses. It is a potent reminder of our baser natures, I think. Nature really is, "red in tooth and claw," but there are altruistic behaviors as well that amaze me.

 

[Haven]

I am not an expert on this milk issue and whether it is natural or unnatural to drink it, so I can't say anything with any real authority.

I'm not sure where anyone who claims drinking milk is unnatural is getting this information, (well, I'm sure there are tons of "expert" articles available on the Internet) but I just think it's HILARIOUS that we are so concerned about milk as being unnatural when most humans are regularly consuming things like fast food, SODA, candy, and other disgusting "foods". Perhaps those of you who shun milk don't eat these "unnatural" foods, but if you do yet you simultaneously shun milk drinking, well your argument is just amusing to me, then.

I made it my habit a long, long time ago to never concern myself with the way other people live their lives, so long as it doesn't harm others or interfere with their ability to live their lives, so whatever you do truly doesn't bother or offend me, anyway. It's just that I find these strong opinions to be quite ridiculous when focused on MILK!

Bottom line: I don't care if milk is unnatural to drink, I love it, and it makes me feel good. I drink a huge ice-cold glass of milk after every long run I take, and it is the best thing in the world to me. I don't eat fast food or drink soda, or ingest any of the other crap that people seem to gorge on these days, so if my milk habit is really unnatural, I'm not concerned about it at all.

I would sincerely love any academic journal article-type references anyone has regarding this issue, because if milk is potentially harmful to humans, then a junkie like me better take heed. Please pass along any bibs you might have, my ERIC account is still up and functional!

ETA: IndyGal--I'm loving your natural & strange examples, thank you!

 

[KimberlyH]

The chain of reasoning is logical, considering how common lactose intolerance is worldwide:

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001681.html

If so many people's bodies are unable to process lactose properly is it really natural and good for us or have we forced our bodies to adapt, to some degree because clearly many people have not been able to, to drinking milk over time?

I'm just playing devil's advocate...I'll shut up now. I'm going to water my plants.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/11/2007 5:33:28 AM
Author: IndieJones


Er... I don''t know why... but I''ve always thought that the French ultra pasteurized and processed milk that can last for months in your pantry (unopened) actually tastes really good.

Fresh milk from free range cows makes processed milk taste sour by comparison.
It is a whole different taste.
Milk from free range cows will taste different in the winter when they are fed hay than in the summer when they eat mostly grass.
Its better in the summer.
No other milk beats it :}

 

[Haven]

All this talk of milk . . . I''m off to have myself a nice, tall glass!

Have a great Saturday night, all!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Storm, stop!!!! You''re killing me! I miss my raw milk and I can''t get it in New York or Morocco! (only when I go home to Cali and you can buy it at Whole Foods)