Do you have compassion for feral cats?

[missy]

If you were raised with cats, then you probably love cats.
If you were not raised with cats, then maybe you don't like them.

I have known so many people who say they don't like cats. When asked, they will say that they only had dogs growing up.
Perhaps that is the case with those folks upthread who sound like they don't particularly care for cats.

And yes, I have fed feral cats on many occasions, and I have taken in strays many times. My two previous cats were rescued from the alley. My current cat is from a shelter.

I was raised with dogs. I never had a cat as a family member til I moved to my first adult apartment (after I graduated) and decided I was going to get a cat. I knew little about them being a “dog” person. Well that was that for me. I am an animal person. I love dogs. I love cats. I love animals. (Most/Many) People eh. Not so much.

Greg was raised without any animals as pets. But he gradually got to know my cats as we dated and was open to them despite his severe allergies. He took allergy shots for 20? years and takes meds for the cat allergies and he’s doing well. And he loves the cats and is a big part of doing TNR and built lots of stuff for the cats.

Thank you Stracci for caring for animals. And for adopting rescues.

Whether or not you are familiar with cats they are living beings. All I know is how someone treats animals speaks volumes about who they are. You don’t have to love cats to not hurt them and you don’t have to have cats to want to try helping cats who are in desperate need.

@kenny I’m so sorry about your parrot.

 

[GeorgieQ]

Once again animals are held to account for human ignorance, stupidity, cruelty and error. Here in Australia we have a huge feral cat issue in our bushland that is decimating the smaller mammal and bird populations. Feral cats, feral dogs, feral pigs, feral deer, feral camels etc, have no place in our bush or deserts, but here's the thing.....humans put them there and humans have destroyed far more bushland and native animals than any feral cat or dog, through development, farming, bushfires etc. I understand that TNR programs are very successful in urban areas.
I love all animals (so much so that I don't eat them ) and whilst I don't think there's an easy answer, kindness and humane, careful treatment has to be an essential part to any solution. No person who dislikes a particular type of animal should be involved in their management. Ever. People need to stop blaming animals for situations they didn't create.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Humans are responsible for any feral cat problems. We can't blame this one on the cats.

 

[LemonMoonLex]

Sadly my cats, two of whom are outdoor/indoor cats and are obviously well fed & taken care of, will still kill for sport. They often bring me little presents, and 80% of the time they are adorable sweet tiny birds that just didn't have a chance. I do hate that part.

My grandfather who was a truly wonderful human being and incredibly empathetic was just in love with birds, they were his world and just plain as day hated cats. He was open about it & disliked everything about them. He farmed all of his own food his entire life and would bird watch from his porch, (now please don't make any crude remarks about my grandfather as he really was a wonderful person and has passed now from ALS) but if a cat came onto his property he'd shoot it. He just had zero tolerance for them.
He saw them in the way that most people see rats or cockroaches sadly. I never understood that about him because he was a veteran, family man, and just such a well rounded person...but yeah he hated them. I only mentioned that to share that yes there are some people out there that can be wonderful people but just dislike cats and won't tolerate them in their yard.

I on the other hand have a soul that has an affinity for cats and horses. I am bound to them spiritually & for some reason just understand them and "get" them.

This graphic pretty much sums up my love for them, feral or not! I don't see the big difference. Plus many cat owners let their cats outdoors so I bet many of the cats you see and think are feral are indeed loved dearly.

 

[Matata]

The thing is, a well fed feral cat is less likely to go after a bird and I have never seen any of the ferals here attack any bird.

Back in 2017, National Wildlife Federation ran an article wherein scientists claimed that outdoor cats, even well fed ones, kill 1.3 billion to 4 billion birds annually. Billions, annually. TNR doesn't stop cats from killing. Cats kill when they aren't hungry. Anecdotal evidence such as "I've never seen..." is not supported by data.

There is some dispute about the number of feral cats in the US -- estimates ranging between 30 million and 80 million. That is appalling and the damage they cause is appalling.

This article is disturbing to read. It advocates mass killing of outdoor cats. I'm favor of that when the welfare of wildlife populations and ecosystems are mortally threatened by cats. That is an ugly reality where fairness to cats isn't a consideration. They will die unless and until we succeed in changing the human behaviors that create and sustain the problem. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/moral-cost-of-cats-180960505/

There is no solution that will make everyone happy and the success of a good compromise is when all parties are unhappy. In an attempt to make everyone unhappy, I like to see pet ownership rise to the same level of expectation and responsibility as raising children.

I'd like to see it made into federal law that all domestic animals be spayed/neutered before they are adopted/purchased regardless of where they come from -- legit breeders, backyard breeders, animal shelters and rescues. I'd like to see people with small children prohibited from owning cats because I'm tired of hearing about their cats escaping when small kids run in and out of their houses leaving the door open and I'm especially tired of hearing how their kids are devastated when they find the cat dead in street. That is irresponsible pet ownership.

I'd like to see rescues/sanctuaries/breeders legally compelled to follow up with owners for the lifetime of all animals they sell/adopt out to ensure the continuing safety and welfare of the animal. I'd like to see all potential pet owners go through a rigorous selection process to ensure they are committed to and capable of caring for an animal at the time of its adoption/purchase and mandatory home inspections at the time of adoption/purchase to ensure that they have a home appropriately suited for the needs of the animal and mandatory yearly home inspections to ensure nothing has changed that puts an animal at risk. Federally mandated so if someone moves to another state, the inspections continue. Job creation!

Radical aren't I? We'll have to give up some of our freedoms to fix the problem. Gasp, constitutional crises. I can already imagine the shrieking and chest thumping that would occur -- no one can tell me what I can and can't do in my house or to my animal. It's my right...blah blah blah. Human behavior is responsible for this problem so human behavior has to change. If those changes are not backed by tough legislation and harsh penalties, the result of our inability to act will pile up and we'll face devastating consequences. Then the blame game will begin anew. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I never had any cats or dogs as a child
All our cats have been ex strays
Tinky would have had a ferel mother
dear little Fluffa Duffa was pretty wild when she choose to come live with us - possibly to get away from toms
I had almost given up on trying to get her freindly but i would never have given up on her
the stray tom behind the shed i feed - i just don't know how to catch up to get him to the vet - but i will and ill continue to feed him because its not fare
Tibby was someone's kitten once and was abandoned twice - he deserved better - they all do
This is Fluffa Duffa under the heat pump tonight - she gives me lots of cat kisses
She just needed a lot of time
Any cat who is obviously unhomed and hungry is welcome to a meal at our back door

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Here is mommy - the wild tom (we thought he was a girl to start with) turning up very late for his dinner-
I leave the bed there for him but he rearly uses ot

 

[missy]

Back in 2017, National Wildlife Federation ran an article wherein scientists claimed that outdoor cats, even well fed ones, kill 1.3 billion to 4 billion birds annually. Billions, annually. TNR doesn't stop cats from killing. Cats kill when they aren't hungry. Anecdotal evidence such as "I've never seen..." is not supported by data.

There is some dispute about the number of feral cats in the US -- estimates ranging between 30 million and 80 million. That is appalling and the damage they cause is appalling.

This article is disturbing to read. It advocates mass killing of outdoor cats. I'm favor of that when the welfare of wildlife populations and ecosystems are mortally threatened by cats. That is an ugly reality where fairness to cats isn't a consideration. They will die unless and until we succeed in changing the human behaviors that create and sustain the problem. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/moral-cost-of-cats-180960505/

There is no solution that will make everyone happy and the success of a good compromise is when all parties are unhappy. In an attempt to make everyone unhappy, I like to see pet ownership rise to the same level of expectation and responsibility as raising children.

I'd like to see it made into federal law that all domestic animals be spayed/neutered before they are adopted/purchased regardless of where they come from -- legit breeders, backyard breeders, animal shelters and rescues. I'd like to see people with small children prohibited from owning cats because I'm tired of hearing about their cats escaping when small kids run in and out of their houses leaving the door open and I'm especially tired of hearing how their kids are devastated when they find the cat dead in street. That is irresponsible pet ownership.

I'd like to see rescues/sanctuaries/breeders legally compelled to follow up with owners for the lifetime of all animals they sell/adopt out to ensure the continuing safety and welfare of the animal. I'd like to see all potential pet owners go through a rigorous selection process to ensure they are committed to and capable of caring for an animal at the time of its adoption/purchase and mandatory home inspections at the time of adoption/purchase to ensure that they have a home appropriately suited for the needs of the animal and mandatory yearly home inspections to ensure nothing has changed that puts an animal at risk. Federally mandated so if someone moves to another state, the inspections continue. Job creation!

Radical aren't I? We'll have to give up some of our freedoms to fix the problem. Gasp, constitutional crises. I can already imagine the shrieking and chest thumping that would occur -- no one can tell me what I can and can't do in my house or to my animal. It's my right...blah blah blah. Human behavior is responsible for this problem so human behavior has to change. If those changes are not backed by tough legislation and harsh penalties, the result of our inability to act will pile up and we'll face devastating consequences. Then the blame game will begin anew. Rinse and repeat.

I agree with some of what you wrote.
No, I don't see most of what you wrote as radical in any sense of the word.
Though I strongly disagree with your willingness to kill all the cats if it comes to that.
Really? How about we hold responsible who is really to blame for this issue?
I bet you are against the death penalty Matata. How do you reconcile being against the death penalty for a person guilty of a heinous crime yet not against the death penalty for an innocent cat?


Getting back to what I do agree with regarding your post.
I, too, would like to see it as a federal law that all animals must be neutered.
I would also like to see no kill shelters be the rule. Instead of what we have now.

And as far as my experience goes the animal rescue groups are responsible for the life of the animal when they are adopted. All ours are microchipped and we were told (we have adopted from many different rescue groups) never to abandon the animal and that if anything should happen and we no longer wanted the animal they would take him/her back. No questions asked. We had to sign something stating we would abide by that. So all the groups we have dealt with are very responsible.

I also agree that it shouldn't be easy to adopt. A weeding out process has to be in place to make sure the animal owner will be responsible. Again all the rescue groups we have dealt with do this. They call our references including our veterinarian and they do their due diligence. All critical to choose conscientious and responsible animal owners.

I cannot speak for breeders as we have never bought an animal from a breeder. So I have zero clue if they are responsible or not. My guess is there are bad breeders out there not helping this issue one iota.

And 100% it is the fault of humans we are all in this predicament. And please, resist the urge to demonize cats. Killing all the ferals will never be an acceptable solution.

These cats have been imported by us all over the world. In numbers overwhelming that of natural predators. The predation by cats on wildlife is an extension of our own negative impact on our environment. It’s up to us to prevent it. And, IMO, the solution is not to kill all the feral cats. Which unfortunately many people want to do. Not because they care about the birds but because they view the ferals as pests who ruin their yard. Yeah there's no noble reason behind most people's dislike of the feral cats.

Cats are not evil. Cats don't deserve to be slaughtered. Birds don't deserve to be slaughtered. Humans created this problem (and continue to breed cats in staggering numbers and people who buy them are not helping this issue because that creates a demand) and have imported them around the world in places they don’t belong and in numbers that often far exceed the numbers of native predators. Another extension of human impact on our environment. Go humans.

The thing is, most cat lovers are also animal lovers. I don't think most of us want to see the destruction of either cats or birds.

I am just going to list a couple of things that might help and wouldn't hurt.
First way to solve a part of this huge problem is to keep domestic house cats inside. Domestic house cats are a big threat to wild birds. It is not the fault of the cats who are following natural instinct. It is completely the fault of humans.

There are things we all can do to help reduce this problem. Nothing will be 100% effective but if we can reduce the killing that is a move in the right direction. Sometimes perfect is the enemy of good. If we do a lot of little things working towards reducing the killing of birds by cats we can save birds.

I respectfully disagree with you about feeding the cats. If the ferals are fed a high quality food they are less likely to hunt and kill birds. Feeding cats high quality high protein food has been demonstrated to reduce the hunt drive of cats. This *might* help reduce the hunting and killing of birds.

Regarding bird feeders which attract birds and might therefore attract cats.
Place them high. And not out in the open. Bird feeders and birdbaths should be placed so that they limit the cat’s access to birds.

Cats should be neutered and breeding should be strictly controlled to reduce feral cat populations.

I know putting bells etc around the cats neck does not do much to help warn the birds but I came across this. I wonder if it helps at all? I do not know if this could work but clearly there are some ways to help stop the killing of birds by cats. What we need though are people who give a damn to work towards this. Not just animal rescue people.

How to Stop Cats from Killing Birds

A cat owner and avian ecologist found an effective solution to a perennial problem. But will other cat owners use it?

www.audubon.org

All this to say the solution isn't to kill all the feral cats. Demonizing any one species is not helpful. Birds deserve to live as do feral cats. As human beings we are the main danger to all others. And ourselves. It's a crying shame.

We will eventually self destruct and then hopefully the rest of the living beings can get back into some sort of balance. Maybe that would be the best solution for all other living animals.








The most dangerous predator on earth is the human. We are the most dangerous of all species. Responsible for vast destruction and deaths beyond comprehension.


If we all worked together we could affect positive change. Maybe.

 

[Matata]

And, IMO, the solution is not to kill all the feral cats. Which unfortunately many people want to do. Not because they care about the birds but because they view the ferals as pests who ruin their yard. Yeah there's no noble reason behind most people's dislike of the feral cats.

The assertion that feral cats should be exempt from lethal methods to control their numbers because people are the cause of the problem puts undue burden on the people who have to contend with the presence of roaming cats be they feral or domestic pets.

Missy, you've left some things out of your narrative that I believe are important considerations.

Missing from your narrative is the capacity for free roaming cats to spread disease and parasites to humans and their cats. I don't expect people who want to enjoy their yards to graciously pick up poop, work around pee, or dress in haz mat suits to protect themselves from exposure to diseases/parasites transmissible from roaming cats. Nor do I expect them to graciously accept that their cat might get sick or die due to contact with free roaming cats who invade their yard or get sick from contact with feces and urine left behind by those cats. Vaccines protect up to a point and it would be no comfort to me to see my cat suffer through an illness with no guarantee of recovery because a free roaming cat invaded my yard.

Missing from your narrative is financial burden imposed on people who have limited control over the actions of free roaming cats and no control over the irresponsible people who contribute to the problem. I don't expect people to graciously accept the financial cost of continually replacing plants, outdoor furniture, outdoor decor destroyed by free roaming cats.

My personal experience:

Two of my cats are on prozac due to territorial aggression. They go ballistic when a cat walks onto our property and they viciously attack each other, me and DH. Then they mark all over the inside of the house. Those cats developed urinary tract disease due to the stress which cost me $30,000+ last year in emergency vet care, housing, and surgery. My other 2 cats are stressed by the stress of their housemates and I'm holding my breath to see if they'll also develop the disease.

Just last week the two of them got into a huge fight because a cat came into the backyard. My cats were on the screened patio. My elder cat had a terrible relapse and I had dope him up on gabapentin, prazosin, and buprenorphine for 7 days. All 4 cats had to be kept separated from each other most of last week and then monitored this week until I'm certain they won't start in on each other again.

I've purchased motion activated water canons and installed blinking lights, which are supposed to mimic predator eyes, all around the house in an effort to deter roaming cats. They find ways around both. They spritz my front screen door and patio screening and I constantly have to deodorize before one of my cats sniff it and goes ballistic. There is a limit to what I'm willing to do in a losing battle. I won't trap/relocate/take to a rescue or surround the house with scat mats and air horns or whatever else that's available that I've not tried. I'm not going to turn my property into any more of a fortress than I already have to accommodate roaming cats.

Last summer my neighbors had their outdoor furniture destroyed by roaming cats. The damage to their backyard in addition to the furniture destruction and the smell of cat pee made it impossible for them to enjoy their yard last year.

My property and the welfare of my animals are my priorities. Since it isn't possible for me to control the actions of people responsible for roaming cats or even to identify those people beyond the poop heads in the neighborhood who let their cats roam, my remaining option is to eliminate the cats in any way that is legally possible. There are people in my area so frustrated by failed humane attempts to solve the problem on their properties that they resorted to killing the cats. I have no idea whether that is legal in Oregon. I won't judge them negatively and at the same time, my heart breaks for the cats.

You asked me about the death penalty. All I can say is that I don't believe all lives matter equally regardless of species.

When I was a wildlife rehabber I killed hundreds of non native English Sparrows and European Starlings brought into the center. The damage they do to the environment and native species is horrendous. Both of those species were brought here by humans. Oregon law prohibits rehab centers from providing care for them and prohibits their release into the wild. Oregon law prohibits the general public from possessing and caring for them and it's illegal for veterinarians to provide care. The kindest, and only, option is humane euthanasia. Domestic cats are not native to North America. When they become problematic, I support humane euthanasia as an option. I won't ever be at peace with that option but I acknowledge the necessity of it.

Edited to add: I just noticed the meme you posted by Steve Irwin. He supported euthanasia of feral cats.

 

[missy]

The assertion that feral cats should be exempt from lethal methods to control their numbers because people are the cause of the problem puts undue burden on the people who have to contend with the presence of roaming cats be they feral or domestic pets.

People are the cause so why shouldn't they have the burden? It is on us. Killing them is not an acceptable solution when there are things that can be done to help the issue.

Let's start with not allowing irresponsible individuals to own pets. That would be a good start.

Missing from your narrative is the capacity for free roaming cats to spread disease and parasites to humans and their cats. I don't expect people who want to enjoy their yards to graciously pick up poop, work around pee, or dress in haz mat suits to protect themselves from exposure to diseases/parasites transmissible from roaming cats. Nor do I expect them to graciously accept that their cat might get sick or die due to contact with free roaming cats who invade their yard or get sick from contact with feces and urine left behind by those cats. Vaccines protect up to a point and it would be no comfort to me to see my cat suffer through an illness with no guarantee of recovery because a free roaming cat invaded my yard.

Washing your hands (and not eating dirt) would protect you (humans) from this issue Matata. It really is that simple. As for allowing one's pets roam free that can be a problem but then what about raccoons, possums, coyotes and other wildlife?

I have no idea whether that is legal in Oregon

Knowing the legalities in each state is an important fact to know. Without that we don't know what we can legally do and not do. We (my dh and I) are not breaking the law by doing TNVR and feeding the ferals on our property.

When I was a wildlife rehabber I killed hundreds of non native English Sparrows and European Starlings brought into the center. The damage they do to the environment and native species is horrendous. Both of those species were brought here by humans. Oregon law prohibits rehab centers from providing care for them and prohibits their release into the wild. Oregon law prohibits the general public from possessing and caring for them and it's illegal for veterinarians to provide care. The kindest, and only, option is humane euthanasia. Domestic cats are not native to North America. When they become problematic, I support humane euthanasia as an option. I won't ever be at peace with that option but I acknowledge the necessity of it.

That must have been very hard to do. I couldn't do that but I am not judging you for that decision. I see both sides. But humans once again the cause of all of it and the solution? Killing. It doesn't sit well with me but I understand you did what you felt you had to do. Rock and hard place.

About the word humane euthanasia- I don't believe it humane to kill healthy animals. It's only humane IMO to kill ones who are ill and suffering and cannot recover. Our ferals are well fed and chubby and appear content. Whenever we see them. With the exception of when they are injured and then we try to capture them and bring them to the vet. Which we have done a few times and always able to treat them and release them. I have no doubt there will be times we cannot save them. We have seen them come and go and never see them again. They don't live as long as well cared for house pets but at least they have a decent quality of life for as long as we can give that to them. It isn't perfect but I have made peace with that. I wish we could save them all and I wish we could save all the birds too. I wish we could save all the wildlife. I truly do.

Edited to add: I just noticed the meme you posted by Steve Irwin. He supported euthanasia of feral cats.

I believe Australia also has quite an awful problem with the sheer number of feral cats that are killing species native to Australia. I just looked up some numbers. Australia's cats (feral and domestic) kill 2 billion animals annually. Pet cats kill 83 million native reptiles and 80 million native birds in Australia each year.

Keeping house cats confined (to the house) would be step one. But you know how people can be about that.

I don't know the solution for Australia just like I don't know the solution for us. My heart breaks for all the animals affected.

Steve Irwin had reasons for feeling the way he did. May he RIP.
Do I agree with everything he ever said/wrote just because I quoted him? Nope.
If that was a prerequisite I would never quote anyone but myself.

Do I see both sides? Absolutely. Do I know the answer? No. Do I think killing feral cats is a good option? No, I do not.

Personally, I think killing the feral cats is a morally flawed choice. I might even go as far as to say barbaric. My opinion.

Also just wanted to say I am sorry about the challenges you are dealing with regarding your cats. It isn't easy. I hope the other 2 don't develop urinary tract disease and that they are all OK. And as for your stray cat issue it is a dilemma. I am sorry.

Allow me one last quote for now if I may.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

I have compassion, and empathy for all living creatures, especially animals.

We have foxes, birds, chipmunks, squirrels, feral cats, groundhogs, deer, rabbits, even peacocks in our yard on occasion.

Just ask Kevin, the squirrel who lives in our outdoor fireplace, between the chimney and the firebox. My husband calls it the world's most expensive squirrel house.

 

[Matata]

We agree on most points. We see both sides, have empathy for all involved and recognize that there is no single solution to the problem and that a combination of approaches will ease the issue but not completely resolve it.

People are the cause so why shouldn't they have the burden? It is on us.

I'm not going to accept blame for the bad actions of others. If you expect people who aren't part of this problem to share the burden, your opinion about the immoral or barbaric nature of humane euthanasia or any option suggested for addressing the problem is arrogant beyond the pale (imo of course and stated with love and admiration for you always).

About the word humane euthanasia- I don't believe it humane to kill healthy animals. It's only humane IMO to kill ones who are ill and suffering and cannot recover.

In your vigilante justice thread, you said you kill flies and roaches but not spiders and that taking a life is not something you do lightly. You choose which animals you'll kill (insects are part of the Animalia kingdom) when you feel it necessary. How do you do it -- stomping, smashing, trapping? Do you consider any of your chosen kill methods to be immoral or barbaric? How do you determine if they're unhealthy before you kill them? What would Gandhi say?

As for allowing one's pets roam free that can be a problem but then what about raccoons, possums, coyotes and other wildlife?

Whataboutism is a logical fallacy that accuses an opponent of being hypocritical without disproving the opponent's argument. I hope I haven't said anything that comes across as hypocritical. I don't understand the relationship you established between cats roaming free and wild animals roaming free. I hope you don't mean that wild animals should not roam free or that our expectations of pets and wildlife should be equal.

Steve Irwin had reasons for feeling the way he did. May he RIP.
Do I agree with everything he ever said/wrote just because I quoted him? Nope

I realize that. But you obviously agreed with the quote you posted. When he speaks about the balance that must be reached for all to survive, he understood that lives would have to be sacrificed to achieve that balance.

I enjoyed our exchanges missy. And I have faith that we respect the differences between our opinions. Hugs.

 

[Queenie60]

I have rescued many Ferrell cats. Latest was about 4 years ago, Sammy, out of a dumpster. Paid vet bills and continued to donate to his well being. It took 3 years for him to find a forever home and he is now happy with a family that understands him. Sammy was a pet and the a....sss ...hol...... who was his “owner” decided he did not want a pet any longer. We have an apartment building that buts up to a creek and the lovely manager feeds the feral cats along the Creek. Bob and I provide the funds for her to feed these lovely creatures. I am sorry for these cats, they all have hearts and souls, they feel love, they feel fear and dam the so called humans that contribute to their suffering.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

This is why i feet Mr Mommy cat

tonight he had the inners of a chicken sandwhich on top of his cat food

I think he sleeps in Gary's kyack that lives between the garden shed and the fence under a tin roof that i think was once for fire wood
Its full of dry leaves and looks warm and cosy

 

[missy]

I'm not going to accept blame for the bad actions of others. If you expect people who aren't part of this problem to share the burden, your opinion about the immoral or barbaric nature of humane euthanasia or any option suggested for addressing the problem is arrogant beyond the pale (imo of course and stated with love and admiration for you always).

Throughout history we have had to (and should) accept responsibility for things we did not directly cause. It is called working together as a team and only by doing that can we make things right again. For so many issues and good causes. Not just this one issue but so many other issues affecting the world. The problem is too big to be solved by any one small group. Instead if everyone does what they can we can see movement in a positive direction which will directly (or indirectly) benefit us all.

In your vigilante justice thread, you said you kill flies and roaches but not spiders and that taking a life is not something you do lightly. You choose which animals you'll kill (insects are part of the Animalia kingdom) when you feel it necessary. How do you do it -- stomping, smashing, trapping? Do you consider any of your chosen kill methods to be immoral or barbaric? How do you determine if they're unhealthy before you kill them? What would Gandhi say?

When I quoted Gandhi I did not accept responsibility for all Gandhi ever said. Just like Irwin there are things I admire and things I do not admire about each individual.

To answer your question I try killing roaches as quickly as possible so as not to cause any undue suffering to them and because I am terrified of them. That usually employs a variety of methods.

I will not compare roaches to feral cats or any other animal. That, IMO, is a false equivalency Matata. Roaches are dangerous scavengers and that is all I care to say about them. Now I hope no one reading (including me) has nightmares about them.

Whataboutism is a logical fallacy that accuses an opponent of being hypocritical without disproving the opponent's argument. I hope I haven't said anything that comes across as hypocritical. I don't understand the relationship you established between cats roaming free and wild animals roaming free. I hope you don't mean that wild animals should not roam free or that our expectations of pets and wildlife should be equal.

But what are feral cats then? Are they domestic animals? No. Are they wild animals? They live outside and exhibit wild behavior. Feral cats have grown up on the street so to speak away from human interference. They are afraid of humans and will run from us if we approach. They are neither domestic animals or wild animals but somewhere in between. What I do know is they deserve to live here along with the rest of the wild animals and they deserve compassion Matata. They are living beings and they are capable of feeling love and contentment and fear and pain. They bleed blood and are capable of feeling things like terror, pain, and complex emotions.

I realize that. But you obviously agreed with the quote you posted. When he speaks about the balance that must be reached for all to survive, he understood that lives would have to be sacrificed to achieve that balance.

We have to be a part of the solution. Sacrificing lives does not mean putting down all the feral cats. Do you think that will solve all our problems? Or even any of our problems? In good conscience we need to (IMO) accept responsibility. Saying let's kill all the ferals and our problems will be solved. No it doesn't work that way and if it comes down to that I know there will be bigger problems down the line.

As for Mr Irwin. Steve Irwin was a flawed human being and faced a tragic ending. He did a lot for wild animals but he was stuck in the quandary between protecting them in the wild and studying them in captivity. His mission in life was to save wildlife but he (IMO) lacked good judgment occasionally and in fact I believe controversy still surrounds him and his work. Having said that I admired much about him but there were things about his behavior I did not care for.

We agree on most points. We see both sides, have empathy for all involved and recognize that there is no single solution to the problem and that a combination of approaches will ease the issue but not completely resolve it.

Yes we do. There are always more than two sides to all issues aren't there. My side, your side and the right side.

I hope, somehow, there are some passionate caring and intelligent people who can figure out how to come to a solution without killing millions of innocent animals.

I enjoyed our exchanges missy. And I have faith that we respect the differences between our opinions. Hugs.

Same, and thank you for the civil discourse. I enjoy debating things with you because we keep it respectful and we allow each other to share our thoughts without attacking the other. I don't take that for granted Matata. Hugs to you too.

 

[missy]

I have rescued many Ferrell cats. Latest was about 4 years ago, Sammy, out of a dumpster. Paid vet bills and continued to donate to his well being. It took 3 years for him to find a forever home and he is now happy with a family that understands him. Sammy was a pet and the a....sss ...hol...... who was his “owner” decided he did not want a pet any longer. We have an apartment building that buts up to a creek and the lovely manager feeds the feral cats along the Creek. Bob and I provide the funds for her to feed these lovely creatures. I am sorry for these cats, they all have hearts and souls, they feel love, they feel fear and dam the so called humans that contribute to their suffering.

Thank you Queenie from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

And a big thank you to all who contributed to this thread. I respect each opinion even when different from mine but I will never respect anyone who purposefully hurts animals or wishes harm to come to them. I know if we, as a world, work together we can figure it out. The answer cannot be to kill all animals that make it challenging or inconvenient. No, as a civilized society that can never be the answer.

This earth was made for all beings not just human beings.
Those who protect and save animals lead the way in protecting and saving humanity and earth. The animals have no voice so we must be their voice. Or as the quote goes...

Animals have no voice.​

They can't ask for help.​

They can't ask for freedom.​

They can't ask for protection.​

Humanity must be their voice.​

A.D. Williams

 

[Matata]

I will not compare roaches to feral cats or any other animal. That, IMO, is a false equivalency Matata. Roaches are dangerous scavengers and that is all I care to say about them. Now I hope no one reading (including me) has nightmares about them.

The comparison is not a false equivalency Missy no matter how much you want it to be. Feral cats and roaches are both dangerous scavengers. Feral cats have been known to cause extinctions of other animals. Both are capable of spreading disease, both breed like, well..., cockroaches.

But what are feral cats then? Are they domestic animals? No. Are they wild animals?

USDA defines what is a pet and cats are classified as domestic pets. They further establish the difference between a true domestic (those that still live with humans even if allowed to free roam) and ferals (those that no longer live with humans). Their definition of a wild cat is one that no longer has any dependence on humans:

'"Class-Mammalia, Order-Feliformis, Family-Felidae, Subfamily-Felinae. Species-F. domesticus. Like most household pets, cats are categorized according to their relationship with their human owners. The first category consists of “homebound” cats, completely dependent on their owners and living solely on the premises. If a cat is allowed to wander, but still is dependent on the owner for food and shelter, it is known as a “free-roaming cat”. If a cat is completely free of its owner to roam and has minimal contact with humans then it is categorized as “feral”. If this feral state continues uninterrupted, the cat and its descendants will become completely independent of humans, and over time will become “wild”.'

Also, the physical characteristics of the "wild" cat differ from domestics/ferals. Their habitat differs from domestics and ferals:

"Feral cats prefer lower elevation montane, second growth forests as habitats. They may prefer these locations because they provide shelter and food resources, such as small mammals. They also contain tree cavities which can be use as dens.

Note: As a consequence of their exceptional hunting ability, feral cats can be quite destructive to ecosystems such as those found in the El Yunque National Forest, where they are not a native species, and where local species have not had time to adapt to feline introduction. In some cases, cats have contributed to or caused extinctions. Due to their hunting behavior, in many countries feral cats are considered pests."

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/AC_BlueBook_AWA_508_comp_version.pdf

 

[missy]

The comparison is not a false equivalency

Yes, it is a false equivalency for many reasons.

Cats are mammals.
Roaches are not.
Cats have a range of complex emotions and feel pain.
Roaches can respond to stimuli, but can't recognize patterns or “learn” from their experiences. Insects don't experience emotions in the same manner and are unlikely to feel pain as we understand it. Roaches don’t have the range of emotions cats do.


And let's go back to something you said the other day Matata.

All I can say is that I don't believe all lives matter equally regardless of species.

There we go. I agree with this. In this case specifically I believe cats lives matter more than the lives of cockroaches. And I would bet if we took a count the great majority of people would agree with this.


And if I may expand on something else about what might happen should we exterminate all feral cats. Removing them from the ecosystem can destabilize the relationships between the different predator and prey species with dire consequences. As an example of what could happen...On Amsterdam Island in the Indian Ocean, an attempt to eradicate feral cats to protect endangered birds caused a spike in the rat and mouse population. The rats and mice then preyed on the birdsmaking the cat eradication ineffective at conserving bird populations.

Another real life study where they eradicated the cats on another island. The rabbit population on the island spike wildly. Without the cats to keep prey species in check, the rabbits devastated local vegetation, which harmed other animal species, and a wave of more than 130,000 rodents entered the ecosystem.

Mathematical models in scientific studies project that cats, rats, and birds can find a balance where all three species co-exist. But when the cats are removed in these simulations, the rat population surges out of control, wiping out the birds completely.

When people misguidedly remove cats to protect wildlife, they risk seriously harming both the environment and the species they aim to protect.

Trap-Neuter-Vaccinate- Return is the only approach that stabilizes the cat populations. With TNVR, there are no more kittens, and sterile adult cats are left in their territory to prevent new, cats from coming into the space. By allowing these top predators to remain in the habitat we avoid problems like the destabilization of the ecosystem.

And as a personal real life example since Greg and I started doing TNVR there have been no kittens born and the feral population has remained stable.

In my opinion, choosing the survival of either cats or wildlife over the other is wrong and unnecessary. The best approach for all animals is the same: TNVR.

Why Trap-Neuter-Return Feral Cats? The Case for TNR

What is Trap-Neuter-Return (TNR)? Trap-Neuter-Return is the humane & effective approach to stray and feral cats, also known as community cats. It stabilizes cat populations by stopping reproduction. Learn more about TNR & how it improves the lives of community cats.<br />

www.alleycat.org

 

[Matata]

When people misguidedly remove cats to protect wildlife, they risk seriously harming both the environment and the species they aim to protect.

But missy, if non native species (be they cats, rats, or whatevers) are not artificially introduced into environments, the native inhabitants would have gone on balancing their populations as they had done before the introduction of a non native species. It actually doesn't matter whether that non native species is a cat or something else. Whenever humans bring a non native species into an ecosystem, bad things happen. Then we go in and try to fix it -- always putting the cart before the horse.

 

[missy]

Whenever humans bring a non native species into an ecosystem, bad things happen.

Agree with this completely. Humans are (almost) always the source of bad things happening.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

They come and go around here. Some years the coyotes get them, other years they are gotten by cars or eat wildlife that my neighbors have poisoned and become poisoned themselves. They do kill the wildlife I love just like my neighbors do. I love them and find it heartbreaking that they are domestic animals that suffer because of the selfishness of humans. I don't feed them but they do visit my water features or hand out under the pine trees. My neighbor provides winter shelter for them because they do get frostbite and are not wild enough to protect themselves from it.

 

[Polished]

Thought you might like to see this missy. Lek Chailert and the cats turned up on my instagram today. I haven't supported her but it sounds like she does great work.

Lek Chailert on Instagram: "It is feeding time ! All kittens know that time and remember their food schedule. They hurry to reserve their own plate . These are cats who were rescued from many different places: most are stray cats, orphaned or aban

4,594 likes, 235 comments - lek_chailert on July 6, 2021: "It is feeding time ! All kittens know that time and remember their food schedule. They hurry to reserve their own plate . These are cats who were rescued from many different places: most are stray cats, orphaned or abandoned, no...

www.instagram.com

 

[GeorgieQ]

Thought you might like to see this missy. Lek Chailert and the cats turned up on my instagram today. I haven't supported her but it sounds like she does great work.

Lek Chailert on Instagram: "It is feeding time ! All kittens know that time and remember their food schedule. They hurry to reserve their own plate . These are cats who were rescued from many different places: most are stray cats, orphaned or aban

4,594 likes, 235 comments - lek_chailert on July 6, 2021: "It is feeding time ! All kittens know that time and remember their food schedule. They hurry to reserve their own plate . These are cats who were rescued from many different places: most are stray cats, orphaned or abandoned, no...

www.instagram.com

I saw this one today and thought of @missy and this thread straight away as well!! How amazing is Lek!

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Heaven forbid if i come back as a cat, please can i live will Missy and Greg

 

[Mayk]

I have three. All have been fixed ano have ears tips. They eat very well. I’m 100% sure my neighbors hate me. Don’t care. They were kittens and a mom cat dumped here. We trapped them all and we were able to tame a couple but the mom and two kittens remained wild. The get close to let you know they are hungry but they do not want to be touched. I buy them wet and dry food. We put a warm bed out for them in the winter. Most feral cats live around five years. these are getting close to seven.

 

[missy]

Heaven forbid if i come back as a cat, please can i live will Missy and Greg

Daisy, you’re welcome here anytime. As a human or cat or whatever you want to be.

I have three. All have been fixed ano have ears tips. They eat very well. I’m 100% sure my neighbors hate me. Don’t care. They were kittens and a mom cat dumped here. We trapped them all and we were able to tame a couple but the mom and two kittens remained wild. The get close to let you know they are hungry but they do not want to be touched. I buy them wet and dry food. We put a warm bed out for them in the winter. Most feral cats live around five years. these are getting close to seven.

Thank you Mary. I cannot imagine anyone disliking you. I wish we were neighbors.
Your cats are lucky cats.

 

[Lookinagain]

I've never seen a feral cat so perhaps I shouldn't have an opinion, but it would seem to me that they should be humanely captured, neutered and vaccinated. It sounds like some can be domesticated but some can't so I don't know what you do after you've neutered and vaccinated them since it seems that adoption may be out for most. But I can't imagine just deciding to kill them. I think people's attitude towards dogs and cats, even their pets, vary widely. To some they are members of the family (that's me) and to others they are only owned for a purpose, maybe for something like hunting. Or a novelty and the thrill wears off, so they are surrendered. So again, I think attitudes vary widely.

 

[Jambalaya]

I haven't read the thread, but I wanted to answer and say that I DEFINITELY have compassion for feral cats! The poor little things are HOMELESS and have no mommy or daddy to tuck them in at night and read them stories!

I can't think too much about homeless animals or I'll get too upset.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I didn't quite understand the thread title, since I cannot imagine anyone would say "no".
My knowledge is extremely limited, since I've only seen any when traveling.

I researched a bit and it seems there are supposed to be millions in France, but where we live there are none. There was an unchipped young cat once at our stables, just turned up one day - the owners trapped it and send a message to all members and it was adopted the next day (by wonderful people who spay /neuter/vaccinate). But it doesn't seem it was really "feral" then...

Otherwise we have three cats crossing our yard all the time, but all have collars. We occasionally have people search their cats ( poster at local supermarket).

I have luckily not seen or heard of any cats that were victims of car accidents recently either (except my cousin's cat when we were children).

I do understand @Matata s points. She also comes from a point of care and compassion for animals. .
AND I agree that true animal lovers should take a very honest look at themselves, their families , their energy level before committing to any animal. I cannot wrap my head around getting an animal on a whim and then abandoning it.
I tend to overthink and yes, that's the reason I don't have an animal at the moment. But when we had animals it was always clear they are family.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Cats are sentient beings

here there is a big ugly push againist any introduced species
I know some do harm the environment and the ecosystem and saddly native animals and plants but no one asked them if they wanted to imigrate
The reasons seem stupid now but a lot were introduced for good reasons at the time

Humans have harmed the planet more than any cat
how about we get rid of the humans first