Thank you, Linda. Your kind words are very much appreciated. Massachusetts is such a weird state. It is theoretically very liberal, but I am heavily involved in both federal and state politics, and MA is just like most other states: a mix of liberal and conservative. Some areas, like where I grew up, are INSANE and we have experienced a lot of difficulty there. Other areas, such as closer to Boston, are much more conservative, and we have run into trouble there as well. I go to college in a very, very progressive part of the state, and there we are right at home. It makes me sad to think we will be leaving our little "bubble" of a valley soon.Date: 7/22/2008 11:32:21 PM
Author: Linda W
Date: 7/22/2008 3:55:47 PM
Author: WishfulThinking
This is an awesome thread!
Well... the fact that we''re both women is by far the largest hurdle for us.Our immediate families are very supportive about this part, but on my FI''s side it took some convincing and getting used to. Now everything is basically fine with them, but we have half the rest of the people in the country we live in [US] to worry about. It''s stressful.Even living in supposedly liberal Massachusetts we run into problems, and we''re not allowed to legally married because of MA legislation forbidding out of state couples to get a marriage that wouldn''t be recognized in their state of origin. FYI this legislation is from the early 1900s and was originally used to keep interracial marriages from occurring in MA when they weren''t legal in other states... which was as late as 1967.
In fact, the legal aspect of our relationship is a huge catastrophe. She is from CA, so now that CA has same sex marriage, we theoretically could get married in MA. However, if CA makes ss marriage illegal again, a MA marriage wouldn''t give us any protections in CA, where we ultimately plan to live. This is stressful. As is explaining to people that our wedding is a WEDDING BECAUSE WE SAY IT IS [
] and because it is that in our hearts and minds and the hearts and minds of the people who will be present. That is really painful to hear, especially coming from people who consider themselves to be progressive, but are not very polite witht heir questions and comments. Then there''s the issue of having no rights once we are married: no family-only hospital benefits, no inheritance, no insurance [depending on the state]. Nothing. Especially depending on where we go for grad school, and how the laws in almost every state are constantly changing... the whole thing makes me lose my mind. There are no guarantees. We are hoping that in June 2009 when we have our wedding we will be able to get a marriage license in CA that would likely protect us even if ss marriage went in and out of legality there, but there is not much anyone, legal advisor or not, can tell us, because they just don''t know yet.
The social aspect is even scarier, because it involves physical danger to us, as well as other things, such as discrimination. Even in MA we have encountered wedding vendors who will not work with us. In our rural area there are only a few bridal shops, and I am terrified they will refuse to serve us. Meanwhile, I cannot bring myself to lie about my wedding, so I will not pretend, even if we have to drive to P-Town to get dresses.We are contemplating a move to Arizona, which would academically be the best choice for us, but are unsure of whether we will be physically and emotionally safe in such a conservative environment. Our gay friends in the area tell us to run not walk away from the state unless absolutely necessary, and that is very scary. Even in MA we are spit at or stared at or yelled at or approached by people who say nasty things. It''s scary to us. Really scary.
The other thing that is hard to overcome is our ages. We will both be 22 when we marry, and she is only about 6 months older than I am. People give us a hard time about being so young, especially our parents, although they have softened up about it recently, and are on board with help planning the wedding! Honestly, though, the people who know us best, our network of friends and professors and other people who know us as a couple better than my parents or others who have doubts have full confidence in us. With over half of marriages ending in divorce, I think it''s important to just LIVE life and know that what might happen. Almost no one goes into marriage thinking that they will divorce, and we are no exception.
Lastly, there is the graduate school issue. We are applying to graduate schools this coming fall, and choosing programs at the same schools or nearby. We have ''sets'' of schools all over the country among our options, and will do our best to make it possible to stay physically together. However, we DO have to make the best decisions for each of us academically and career-wise, and we don''t want any lingering resentment. We will put that first, and know that our relationship can stand that test. We have survived many trials, and are long distance for months at a time as it is. It will be different, but we will not be the first to do it. Of course, many here will relate to the snarky comments about long-distance being a setup bound for disaster. It''s frustrating.
Wishfulthinking: I just read your post: I am truly sorry that you both have to live like this in MA. DH and I live in California, where, as you know, gays and lesbians are everywhere.(I hope I worded that right) No where have I seen them spat at, yelled at, etc. That is very disgusting in my eyes. We live in a very nice housing development. Behind us and 3 houses over, are a wonderful lesbian couple, who bought their house the same time we did 23 years ago. Did any of us or their neighbors make a stink, call them names???? NO we did not.
They attend neighborhood BBQ''s walk neighbors dogs, if they are on vacation, etc.I have also worked with gay men. They were treated with respect, not made fun of, nor were they called names inside the office, or behind their backs.
Again, I am very sorry you are experiencing such nasty hatred. I do hope the laws change in your favor.
Linda
Thanks GP.Date: 7/24/2008 2:16:53 AM
Author: Guilty Pleasure
WishfulThinking, I am sorry people treat you that way! I live in Texas, one of the most conservative states out there I imagine, and I have never seen anyone treated like that. I have lived in Houston or Dallas for most of my life though, so maybe it''s more of a urban vs. rural thing. Regardless of moral or personal differences, NO ONE deserves to be spit on or attacked or made to feel unwelcome.
PS - I consider myself a conservative person, and am very adamently NOT associated with neo-nazis.Those people are radical, not conservative.
I think from the perspective of people who experience it it seems very different. Some places in Texas [and every state, for that matter!] are quite progressive, and some, as in every state, are not. However, even in the most liberal places there are some very hateful incidents. Although the Texas climate and atmosphere is something I adore, I have heard too many bad things from my gay friends who live[d] there, and many felt they had to move because the conditions were so hostile. That was in multiple parts of the state, even! I think it''s hard for other people to notice when stuff like that happens. 10% of the population can be a very small, and in some areas not very visible, group to track reactions too. That said, Dallas is pretty liberal, and Houston is certainly better than more rural areas! Cities tend to have a multitude of different types of people in them.
I wish everyone thought like you!Date: 7/24/2008 3:16:58 AM
Author: Guilty Pleasure
I agree that I probably wasn't looking for the negative treatment, so I wouldn't notice it unless it was right in front of me. Plus, I lived 'inside the loop' in both places which put me in very close proximity to the gay-friendly neighborhoods. I wasn't trying to say that it never happens here, just that I think it is awful that anyone would be treated so rudely, and that even in 'conservative' states, there are plenty of friendly areas and people.
Hopefully one day, any person wouldn't have to go to a certain state or city or neighborhood to feel welcome or accepted for who they are, whether it's the color of their skin, their size, their sexual orientation, who they marry, and on and on.
And my answer to the original question is that my bf and I don't have any societal norms to overcome other than the fact that we are not married yet
Wishful Thinking:Date: 7/24/2008 3:43:49 AM
Author: WishfulThinking
I wish everyone thought like you!Date: 7/24/2008 3:16:58 AM
Author: Guilty Pleasure
I agree that I probably wasn''t looking for the negative treatment, so I wouldn''t notice it unless it was right in front of me. Plus, I lived ''inside the loop'' in both places which put me in very close proximity to the gay-friendly neighborhoods. I wasn''t trying to say that it never happens here, just that I think it is awful that anyone would be treated so rudely, and that even in ''conservative'' states, there are plenty of friendly areas and people.
Hopefully one day, any person wouldn''t have to go to a certain state or city or neighborhood to feel welcome or accepted for who they are, whether it''s the color of their skin, their size, their sexual orientation, who they marry, and on and on.
And my answer to the original question is that my bf and I don''t have any societal norms to overcome other than the fact that we are not married yetHopefully some day they will. And hopefully someday the social expectations surrounding marriage will change a bit so LIWs won''t have to be harassed about why they aren''t married, and I won''t have to be harassed about why I am!
That part was really hard for some of my family & friends to get over. Especially my dear grandma But we have also learned we can''t live our lives to please others... We''ve since sold that house and made a cool killing, paid off all our debt and can now start off married life scratch & debt free with the exception of our mortgage!
Besides, That just freed up more moulah for my bling!!!!
Date: 7/22/2008 12:19:09 PM
Author: elledizzy5
Kind of funny, but SO had to overcome my friends! When I first met SO, I was instantly attracted to him, much to my surprise. He was very attractive, don''t get me wrong there. (Ahem, he still is very attractive), but he was not someone I was normally ''expected'' to date by my friends. I was hanging out with friends that I had been friends with forever, and they had certain ''expectations''. We always had to be dressed well, made up, and in style. FF was a little nerdy, with his converse shoes and web-comic t shirts. The first time my friends met SO, they judged him solely on his shoes. We were in a ''trendy'' martini bar for my birthday, and he wore *Gasp!* Converse Chuck Taylors! (This is before they came back into style, as of recently). All my friends could talk about was how his shoes were so uncool, and they couldnt believe he''d wear them to this type of bar. Most of my friends wouldn''t even acknowledge him when he''d talk to them. They flat out ignored him.
FF and I started dating regularly, and I kept it a secret from my friends for a while. They refused to like him because of how he dressed. I eventually realized that these are not the type of people that I wanted as my friends. We distanced, and FF and I grew closer. I started hanging out with his friends, and realized how much better it was hanging out with people who didn''t care where my purse was from. I could relax. For the first time... I could just be myself. I changed a whole lot after that, and I can''t thank FF enough.
The old friends and I have since reconciled, and they love him now. Not because of his shoes, but because he treats me like a princess. Once they gave him a shot, they realized what I had seen all along.
FF and I still joke about his Converse shoes.
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